What Are we Getting Saved From?

[bbyrd009]

Well that was quite the anti JW diatribe there

well they are wolves in sheep’s clothing just like the others imo, so ya

"Wrestling with God" is apparently also what you feel the need to do.....I have no need to 'wrestle' because God has answered all my questions so satisfactorily

well, to that i would say that it is what Jacob ended up doing, but as far as i am concerned you do not, if you dont ever feel the need to, ok

And it is clear to me that you have never had anything to do with JW's apart from what you have heard from ex's or other ignorant people

and there it is
yes aj, we’re all so much more ignorant than you lol
ok, best of luck
you dont have to address my points if you dont wanna, i dont even blame you ok

 

[bbyrd009]

Perhaps because of Hebrews 9:27-28 (WEB):

(27) Inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once, and after this, judgment,
(28) so Christ also, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, without sin, to those who are eagerly waiting for him for salvation.​

well the operative word in my q might be “only,” but i get you, sure

 

[bbyrd009]

Perhaps because of Hebrews 9:27-28 (WEB):

(27) Inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once, and after this, judgment,
(28) so Christ also, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, without sin, to those who are eagerly waiting for him for salvation.​

i wish there was an easier…or i mean more acceptable to believers, explanation for your point there keith; im pretty sure i get what it is, but im also pretty sure that believers are not going to like it!
So rather than try that again, im tempted to approach the “appointed” in there, but rather than that i think maybe a Quote from the same chapter might be in order;

22According to the law, in fact, nearly everything must be purified with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness

Now keith, my question to you is, is there any forgiveness in Christianity without the shedding of blood?

 

[Aunty Jane]

I believe that who we are is not just physical flesh and bones. We are our personality, character, memories, reasoning powers, etc.. That is not a physical thing. People who suffer from dementia can loose all their memories, intelligence, etc.. I saw it happen to my father, whose mind seemed to go in reverse, so that he degenerated back into a small child like person, unable to communicate. Who he was had disappeared. Will he be resurrected as that baby like person, having no significant personality and no memories of his former life. I hope not!

You are describing the “soul”....the whole physical being, created in God’s image, and animated by a force that no human can fully understand. What is “life” after all, and where did it come from? That is not something that science can explain.....but the Bible fully answers that question as every believer knows.....life is what is created by the original source of life....Yahweh....a life form that is basically also beyond human comprehension. He is described in human terms, but we all know that he has no form that humans can see. The Bible tells us about other “spirit” beings (angels) who dwell in the presence of Yahweh....something mere mortals cannot do without physical harm.

Since God had a vast spirit family in heaven before he created the material Universe, don’t we have to ask why he wanted to create physical beings on a physical planet, carefully prepared to accommodate all the life forms he designed to live here?

Why would he want to take them to heaven, when he offered them everlasting life here on earth?

Some people liken us to a computer. The body is like the computer hardware, and the mind, who we really are, is like the software. The software is not physical; it has no mass. The computer without the software cannot function, but the software can be copied and put into other computers, and they will all perform the same and seem to be identical - clones. If the original computer hardware is destroyed, the other computers will nevertheless seem to be the same to us (some perhaps may have better hardware, but they will still function the same). Which one of those multiple computers is the real original computer?

Computers are not “alive” and are created by imperfect humans to imitate some of the processes that drive human ‘machinery’. To offer a parallel like this is to question God’s ability to restore the life that was lost. He promised a resurrection of both “the righteous and the unrighteous” through Jesus Christ. (John 5:28-29)
The resurrections performed by Jesus and his apostles in the first century, were all a return to this life, demonstrating what a resurrection was going to be in the new world to come under the rule of God’s Kingdom......this was a Jewish expectation because they had no belief in an immortal soul that exited the body at death. The soul was temporarily out of existence whilst in the grave (Sheol/hades) and that life was to be restored when the resurrection took place. No one questioned that they would still be the same “person”. It was God’s promise....are we to question his ability to do this?

Paul wrote, 2 Corinthians 5:1-8 (WEB):
(1) For we know that if the earthly house of our tent is dissolved, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal, in the heavens.
(2) For most certainly in this we groan, longing to be clothed with our habitation which is from heaven;
(3) if so be that being clothed we will not be found naked.
(4) For indeed we who are in this tent do groan, being burdened; not that we desire to be unclothed, but that we desire to be clothed, that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life.
(5) Now he who made us for this very thing is God, who also gave to us the down payment of the Spirit.
(6) Therefore we are always confident and know that while we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord;
(7) for we walk by faith, not by sight.
(8) We are courageous, I say, and are willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be at home with the Lord.

These verse apply only to the elect. These alone are taken to heaven for a specific purpose...to assist Christ in his administration as King of God’s Kingdom. Revelation 20:6 tells us that these will be “kings and priest” with Jesus in heaven.....all (including Jesus) will have lived life as a human and would be the best choice to bring redeemed mankind back into a sinless condition to again stand before God without the barrier of sin....the condition that Adam and his wife once enjoyed at the beginning. This is why Jesus came...to undo the damage that was caused by the rebellion in Eden.

God created us to live here on earth forever.....that is why there was a "tree of life" in the garden and also why access to it was denied when sin entered into the world......why would God allow the disobedience of his children to derail his first purpose permanently? Where does the Bible say that he changed his mind? (Isaiah 55:11) What God starts, he finishes. He had a purpose to our existence and he will carry it out, regardless of the abuse of free will that took place and derailed it for a time. He would implement a plan of action that would teach all of his children (both in heaven and on earth) very valuable lessons about the importance of obedience to our Creator.....lessons that would stand the test of time for all eternity to come.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Continued.....

So for Christians, although our human body will eventually be dissolved (perished), God will (in the resurrection) give us a spirit being body, similar to Jesus' current body, and we will live forever in heaven with him. He seems to be saying that we are clothed with a physical human body, that we can be unclothed (dead, unconscious and without a body), and that we will be clothed with an immortal spirit body. That sounds like what we actually are can exist even when the physcial body dies, but when the body dies who/what we are exists in an unconscious state, described by Jesus as a sleep. It could remain like that, it could be made conscious again and given a new body (physical or spiritual), or God can permanently destroy it.

Again, the elect (those with the "heavenly calling". Hebrews 3:1) will experience a spiritual resurrection, but this is not what the majority will receive. The elect will be "resurrected first" and the general resurrection of the dead will take place after the Kingdom has been established and ruling over redeemed mankind on earth. Death itself will be done away with along with suffering, sickness and pain. (Revelation 21:2-4)

There are two separate resurrections at two different times.

Jesus will call all the dead from their graves (Matthew 5:28-29)....some who had died faithful to God would be granted life because they had earned that right by their former course....but others, ‘resurrected to judgment’ would be given the opportunity to be educated in God’s ways and to then make their own choices about serving their Creator in obedience....the final test at the end of the thousand year reign of the Kingdom, when satan is released from his prison, will give all redeemed humanity their final 'reward' or 'judgment'. (Revelation 20:1-3, 7-9)

In verse 2 above, the word translated habitation (or house) is oiketerion, which is the same word used in Jude 1:6 (KJV):

(6) And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.
This is refering to the angels mentioned in Genesis 6:2 (WEB):

(2) God’s sons saw that men’s daughters were beautiful, and they took any that they wanted for themselves as wives.
These angels left their heavenly position and came down to the earth, leaving their spirit body "house" or "habitation" and taking on a physical human body (male). It seems that angels too can be clothed with a spritual or physical body. Demons too want to take possesion of human bodies (or dwelling place). So it seems reasonable to me to suppose that we too are similar to the angels (after all, we are made a little lower than the angels - Psalms 8:5, and Jesus also was made a little lower than the angels when he was made a man - Hebrews 2:9), so that the essence of who we are is not physcial, but spiritual. That's my best guess.

It is my understanding that spirit creatures have the ability to materialize and to dematerialize at will.....otherwise the rebel angels who took human women in Noah's day could not have taken on human flesh and procreated. That was an abuse of their free will. The flood was God's response because wickedness had escalated very quickly under their influence, and a 'reset' was needed to get things back on track. The flood accomplished two things.....it destroyed the freakish offspring of those angels, and forced their fathers back to the spirit realm where God dealt with them. (Jude 6; 2 Peter 2:4; 1 Peter 3:19-20)

On other occasions when angelic messengers appeared to God's servants, they ate and drank human food and accepted the hospitality offered to them.
After his resurrection, Jesus "appeared" to his disciples on numerous occasions, but it seems, not always in the same body. As he was dining with them he broke bread in his usual manner and simply disappeared before their eyes (Luke 24:31).....the resurrected body of Jesus was not in human form, but he was raised as a spirit being, (1 Peter 3:18) so he could materialize at will.

My point was that there is a distinction between body and soul, and only God can destroy the soul, but the body can be killed much more easily.

Adam was a body, when God created him....but he was given "the breath (spirit) of life" to animate him and he "became a living soul".

What lies in a grave is a "body" but the "soul" (person) is dead, unable to participate in life in any way (Ecclesiastes 9:5, 10).....when God resurrects a soul, breathing life (spirit) into that body....they again become a "soul" able to resume life again.
God can "destroy a soul" by not bringing that person back from the dead....eternal death is the opposite of eternal life....

Too many fail to discern the difference between "soul" and "spirit", thinking that they are interchangeable terms, and clinging on to the false teaching of an immortal soul.....there is no such teaching in the Bible. The soul is entirely mortal. (Ezekiel 18:4)

 

[Aunty Jane]

well they are wolves in sheep’s clothing just like the others imo, so ya

That is your uninformed opinion and you are entitled to it as a free willed human being.....what you think is between you and God.....Jesus has appointed a judge and its not you or me.

But please tell me why Jesus said...
“Happy are you when people reproach you and persecute you and lyingly say every sort of wicked thing against you for my sake. 12 Rejoice and be overjoyed, since your reward is great in the heavens, for in that way they persecuted the prophets prior to you." (Matthew 5:11-12)

If they were not to expect strong opposition involving false accusations and persecution, then Jesus would not have warned his disciples about it. Where did their opposition come from? Mainly from the mainstream, those who claimed to worship the same God, and who used the same scripture.....

Why were Jesus' disciples hated? Because they taught something contrary to the popular beliefs of the masses, corrupted by centuries of appalling leadership and their adopted "traditions of men"......history repeats, doesn't it?

well, to that i would say that it is what Jacob ended up doing, but as far as i am concerned you do not, if you dont ever feel the need to, ok

You seem to judge everyone by your own standards.....
Why was this one incident involving Jacob wrestling an angel (not actually God, or he would have died just being in his presence) mentioned....and what was the end result?
During the night that Jacob’s household crossed the ford at Jabbok on the way to meet his estranged brother, Esau, Jacob had this most unusual experience, and because of his perseverance his name was changed to "Israel", meaning “Contender (Perseverer) With God; or, God Contends.” (Genesis 32:22-28) Thereafter both names often appear in Hebrew poetic parallelisms. (Psalm 14:7;22:23)

In this struggle the angel touched the socket of Jacob’s thigh joint, and Jacob limped for the rest of his life...perhaps to teach him humility; like a constant reminder not to be overly exalted because of his God-given prosperity or for having grappled with an angel?

Jacob's experience, is not necessarily ours.....you tend to read into scripture things that you have concocted in your own head....you misapply them and then accuse anyone who disagrees of not telling your truth...but it seems that you don't really have one to begin with. What a peculiar situation to be in.

We need to believe in unity with a brotherhood....as Paul stated...."Now I urge you, brothers, through the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you should all speak in agreement and that there should be no divisions among you, but that you may be completely united in the same mind and in the same line of thought." Who are you at unity with? Just a rhetorical question for you to consider....

you dont have to address my points if you dont wanna, i dont even blame you ok

I will address a few points just for clarity....and to show you how far off base you are in your thinking....IMO.


Here goes....FWIW....

earth would get awfully crowded, Bible states plainly, more than one way, that we are “here today, gone tomorrow,” “assigned threescore and ten years,” etc

but it isnt going to matter, see, youve heard this before, and you will hear it again, and you either have some pat little sales pitch for each point, or you will just completely ignore the point entirely, like you do with any Scripture that does not fit with the jw profile, would you like to see an example?

An example of what? What you have quoted is post fall man, not pre-fall man. In Eden, there was originally no "here today and gone tomorrow" because there was always a tomorrow and life was to be lived on earth "forever"....as long as the humans obeyed God, there would be no death. Sin is what causes death.......The "three score and ten" was a later, post-flood life span, because many pre-flood people lived to almost a thousand years old......but no one actually lived longer...do you know why?

It has something to do with how God counts a "day". The first humans were told that in the "day" they ate from the TKGE, that they would "surely die". Since God does not lie, and they did not physically die on that day, how can we reconcile this with the rest of scripture?
2 Peter 3:8...
"But do not let this one fact escape your notice, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day."
You see....no one lived a whole "day" by Jehovah's counting. Spiritual death ('dead in trespasses and sins') occurred that very day, but physical death would take much longer.....enough time to set up the human race for its greatest object lesson....which would ultimately lead to the separation of the worthy from the unworthy, once the redeemer had successfully offered his life and the rule of God's Kingdom was established on earth.

Access to "the tree of life" guaranteed everlasting life in mortal flesh. That is what Genesis teaches.

"Then the Lord God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil; and now, he might reach out with his hand, and take fruit also from the tree of life, and eat, and live forever”— 23 therefore the Lord God sent him out of the Garden of Eden, to cultivate the ground from which he was taken. 24 So He drove the man out; and at the east of the Garden of Eden He stationed the cherubim and the flaming sword which turned every direction to guard the way to the tree of life." (Genesis 3:22-24)
God made sure that no sinner would live forever. No one would ever be able to partake of the tree of life again until God's Kingdom was ruling and his will was "done on earth as it is in heaven".

 

[Aunty Jane]

Continued.....

ill tell you what scares me aj—for you i mean—and why i would never, ever become jw, nor would i stand idly by while someone like you proselytizes other seekers, is that you are now captured, see; you cannot change your mind, practically speaking, without being shunned, which is imo why you cannot have a back and forth conversation, as you are now committed to the sin of pride, even if it doesnt look like that at first, pride is what it is, “We are superior, we are holy, and if you disagree we cannot even talk to you” and so now you have an entire belief system based upon “speculation,” as if following “Jehovah” without even recognizing where that Fake Name derives from is not evidence enough?

What a load of garbage.....you obviously have no idea what disfellowshipping is or why it is practiced. Our entire belief system is based on scripture, not on church doctrine....never the twain shall meet.

Based on Paul's writings JW's carry out what is described there in Romans 5:9-13...
"I wrote to you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people; 10 I did not at all mean with the sexually immoral people of this world, or with the greedy and swindlers, or with idolaters, for then you would have to leave the world. 11 But actually, I wrote to you not to associate with any so-called brother if he is a sexually immoral person, or a greedy person, or an idolater, or is verbally abusive, or habitually drunk, or a swindler—not even to eat with such a person. 12 For what business of mine is it to judge outsiders? Do you not judge those who are within the church? 13 But those who are outside, God judges. Remove the evil person from among yourselves." (NASB)
Why do the churches fail to practice this directive? Can you see why unrepentant sinners are allowed to remain and how "a little leaven ferments the whole lump"? Why do you suppose that Christendom is such a divided mess? They can't agree on anything (contrary to Paul's admonition in 1 Corinthians 1:10) and they are so scared of losing revenue to pay the pastor, that they allow backsides on seats who should be disciplined very strongly and shown the door.

But since you apparently have no brotherhood with whom to meet and study God's word, how on earth could you implement such a command?

The name Jehovah stumbles a lot of people, but we have no issues with God's name pronounced either in English or in transliterated form....the important thing is to use it and reverence it as Jesus said in the Lord's Prayer....it was first on his list of priorities. It was "Hallowed by thy name"....not "hallowed be thy title".....

As Joel 2:32 says...."And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of Jehovah shall be delivered..." (ASV) Got issues....your problem.

I mean, is there any chance that you might one day leave the tree you are proverbially swinging from, and experience any other discipline? No, right?

Says the one who is swinging from his own tree...all by himself.....
If I have found the truth, why would I need to experience any "other discipline"? Can you imagine Jesus' disciples telling him that they would follow him until someone came along who taught them something different to think about? (James 1:5-8)

Then see, there will never be any chance that you could rationally contemplate many, many passages of Scripture, threescore and ten, that you might then evolve a more complete understanding that would lead to growth, and a changed mind, and i cant think of a better description of “in the grave” ok, although im sure you are comfortable enough, and again i am not here to convert you

Since you have such a stunted view of the scripture you quote, how on earth can you teach me what you do not even know yourself?

At least learn the meaning of the scripture you read.....who is your teacher? You? Any wonder you are confused....

I am not here to convert anyone either.....like Jesus, we just tell the truth from the scriptures, and allow the individual to evaluate what we share....no pressure. Jesus offered what he taught on a "take it or leave it" basis......so do we.

So why did Jesus command his disciples to preach? (Matthew 28:19-20)
Were they to take their own ideas out to the people?

Gehenna is a trash dump, and makes a great analogy for what we would now call “ghosting” people, or otherwise breaking off relationships bc the other party is not “holding up their end,” and you cannot Quote any of what you said up there, sorry. Not saying that it abs is not true, but it is conjecture. No one returns from Sheol i guess, but then that whacks your other beliefs right

Who is "we"? I cannot ever see a "we" in connection with what you believe......so what on earth is "ghosting people"? I have never heard of it.
Breaking off relationships is what we are commanded to do if the person pretending to be a "Christian" is living an unchristian life.
2 John 8-11...
"Watch yourselves, that you do not lose what we have accomplished, but that you may receive a full reward. 9 Anyone who goes too far and does not remain in the teaching of Christ, does not have God; the one who remains in the teaching has both the Father and the Son. 10 If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not receive him into your house, and do not give him a greeting; 11 for the one who gives him a greeting participates in his evil deeds."

Do you see a sanction there for any Christian to hold to their own beliefs, when others are taught otherwise? All had to adhere to the same truth (1 Corinthians 1:10)....the one taught by Jesus and maintained by his apostles.....its all there in one book.....but the devil is hard at work, corrupting Christianity just as he corrupted Judaism. (2 Corinthians 4:3-4)

You need to get your terminologies straight there bbrydie....."Gehenna" is not "sheol" or "hades". Hades is to be emptied in case you hadn't realized. Hades is sheol...the common grave of all mankind....we all go there. People will come forth from their graves, just as Lazarus did. (John 11:11-14)
"Gehenna" OTOH, is a place from which no one returns.....its not conjecture, but fact. Its the symbolic "lake of fire" in Revelation, reserved for the wicked who will be eliminated from existence, not eternally tortured. Satan and his cronies are thrown in there as well as death and hades, so it cannot be a literal place. (Revelation 20:13) It simply means eternal death.....that's it, end of story.

Matthew 10:28....
"And do not be afraid of those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. [Gehenna]"

Souls are "destroyed" in Gehenna. What does "destroyed" mean?

Jesus was Jewish and he taught from Jewish scripture.....there was no belief in 'heaven or hell' as opposite destinations among the Jews....the Greeks promoted that fabrication.

therefore he did not “breathe His least breath” at all, as Scripture plainly states, and being as how He will supposedly un-zombify at some point and literally come back to life, the entire passage becomes moot, also

"un-zombify"???....now there is a word I will never find in scripture.....nor will I find anything about the continuation of life after death for the majority of mankind who have been "sleeping" (like Lazarus was) for thousands of years. They are not conscious, so they cannot feel pain or even experience joy until after their resurrection.

therefore Steven’s spirit will not “go back to God, Who gave it” like the Bible says, it will actually “go back and forth,” right?

His breath (spirit) didn't go anywhere but out of his body.....boy you have some twisted ideas.....the spirit is not an entity.....where on earth do you get these ideas? Not from the Bible that's for sure.

since we will all transgress “from a young age,” sure, but see you are taking that too absolutely, at least imo, and there are several other ways to demonstrate that babies dont sin, i can think of like five Scriptural treatments for that, that you will not hear of course

If you have followed the definition of sin according to the Bible, even the youngest of children succumb to death.....sin is the cause of death.....it is in their bodily makeup, inherited from Adam....its what causes disease, pain and suffering. The very things that Christ came to eliminate from our lives. (Revelation 21:2-4)

 

[keithr]

Now keith, my question to you is, is there any forgiveness in Christianity without the shedding of blood?

No. We are only forgiven because of, and through, the shed blood of Jesus.

Ephesians 1:7 (WEB):

(7) in whom we have our redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace​

1 John 1:7 (WEB):

(7) But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ, his Son, cleanses us from all sin.​

 

[bbyrd009]

No. We are only forgiven because of, and through, the shed blood of Jesus.

Ephesians 1:7 (WEB):

(7) in whom we have our redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace​

1 John 1:7 (WEB):

(7) But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ, his Son, cleanses us from all sin.​

it appears that under the law you are certainly correct, yes

 

[bbyrd009]

That is your uninformed opinion and you are entitled to it as a free willed human being

oh, dont get me wrong, not saying im any less evil or anything lol

 

[keithr]

You are describing the “soul”....the whole physical being, ...

Not quite. I described us as being something other than physical, perhaps some kind of spirit being, that is abiding in a physical body. Whereas you believe we are 100% physical and nothing else, possibly based on Genesis 3:19 ("For you are dust, and to dust you shall return"). But thinking logically, I believe that can't be the whole picture. The physical body disintegrates into dust and is scattered (especially so for those who are cremated or eaten by animals!), and while God is able to create a whole new body, it will be a completely separate and distinct body, so if our personality, memories, etc., are somehow put back into that physical body it will be a clone and not the original. The newly created body will think it's you but it won't be you. The only way that it can be like a sleep, so that you will wake up again to consciousness and awareness, is if some part of you remains in existence in a dormant state, and God places that into the new body and awakens it. That can't be a physical part. I'll guess we won't know for sure until after our resurrection!

1 Corinthians 13 (WEB):

(9) For we know in part, and we prophesy in part;​

i.e. all inspired utterances are but partial revelations of Divine Truth.

(10) but when that which is complete has come, then that which is partial will be done away with.
(12) For now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I will know fully, even as I was also fully known.​

Since God had a vast spirit family in heaven before he created the material Universe, don’t we have to ask why he wanted to create physical beings on a physical planet, carefully prepared to accommodate all the life forms he designed to live here?

Yes, which is why I asked/said in post #27, "why do you think God created the earth, all life on earth, and mankind? I don't believe that God created man just to be gardeners to keep the earth looking good".

Why would he want to take them to heaven, when he offered them everlasting life here on earth?

Paul revealed that mystery to us, Ephesians 1:3-14 (WEB):

(3) Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ;
(4) even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and without defect before him in love;
(5) having predestined us for adoption as children through Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his desire,
(6) to the praise of the glory of his grace, by which he freely gave us favor in the Beloved,
(7) in whom we have our redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace,
(8) which he made to abound toward us in all wisdom and prudence,
(9) making known to us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he purposed in him
(10) to an administration of the fullness of the times, to sum up all things in Christ, the things in the heavens, and the things on the earth, in him;
(11) in whom also we were assigned an inheritance, having been foreordained according to the purpose of him who does all things after the counsel of his will;
(12) to the end that we should be to the praise of his glory, we who had before hoped in Christ.
(13) In him you also, having heard the word of the truth, the Good News of your salvation—in whom, having also believed, you were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit,
(14) who is a pledge of our inheritance, to the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of his glory.​

The resurrections performed by Jesus and his apostles in the first century, were all a return to this life, demonstrating what a resurrection was going to be in the new world to come under the rule of God’s Kingdom......

Yes, but it doesn't explain how it was done, and whether we are totally physical or if we have a non-physical part to our existence.

this was a Jewish expectation because they had no belief in an immortal soul that exited the body at death.

Indeed, we do not have an immortal soul (yet!).

The soul was temporarily out of existence whilst in the grave (Sheol/hades)

Ah, but was it? Jesus and Paul say the dead are sleeping, not that they no longer exist.

and that life was to be restored when the resurrection took place. No one questioned that they would still be the same “person”. It was God’s promise....are we to question his ability to do this?

No, we should not question God's ability to do what He says He will do. I'm just trying to understand the reality of how he is able to do that.

These verses apply only to the elect.

Yes, I know that.

These alone are taken to heaven for a specific purpose...to assist Christ in his administration as King of God’s Kingdom. Revelation 20:6 tells us that these will be “kings and priest” with Jesus in heaven

All Christians are the elect. I believe that the JW interpretation that only 144,000 go to heaven and all other Christians (and non-Christians) are resurrected as humans is incorrect, based on a misunderstanding of who the 144,000 are. Christians follow in the footsteps of Jesus, sacrificing their human lives too, so that they may share in Jesus' inheritance - a heavenly inheritance. Romans 8:16-17 (WEB):

(16) The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God;
(17) and if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint heirs with Christ; if indeed we suffer with him, that we may also be glorified with him.​

 

[Aunty Jane]

Please bear with me...there is a lot to address here to do it justice....

Not quite. I described us as being something other than physical, perhaps some kind of spirit being, that is abiding in a physical body. Whereas you believe we are 100% physical and nothing else, possibly based on Genesis 3:19 ("For you are dust, and to dust you shall return"). But thinking logically, I believe that can't be the whole picture. The physical body disintegrates into dust and is scattered (especially so for those who are cremated or eaten by animals!), and while God is able to create a whole new body, it will be a completely separate and distinct body, so if our personality, memories, etc., are somehow put back into that physical body it will be a clone and not the original.

Just as we have no way to know *how* God created, we have no way to know how he *recreates* either. All we know is that God says “resurrection” is the destiny of all humans....a small number (a little flock”) will go to heaven to rule with Christ as members of its administrative team, (all individually chosen and anointed by God himself) as “kings and priests” (Revelation 20:6) who are “born again” as spirit beings upon their resurrection, whereas those who will be their subjects here on earth, will be resurrected to resume their life here on earth. These are not "born again" but are recreations of their former selves, not as a different creation,as the elect are.

Since you seem to stumble over the fact that you cannot accept what God promises unless you understand it, do you doubt his ability to fulfill his promise? Does God tell us that we will be clones of our former selves, or do the resurrections in the Bible indicate that the life of the person raised was fully restored, despite that fact that (in Lazarus’ case especially) they had been dead long enough for brain death to have taken place days before. Brain death occurs when oxygen deprives cells in the brain die and cannot be reactivated. Once brain death occurs, the “soul” (person) is dead. No one can bring them back to life except by God's power.

The newly created body will think it's you but it won't be you. The only way that it can be like a sleep, so that you will wake up again to consciousness and awareness, is if some part of you remains in existence in a dormant state, and God places that into the new body and awakens it. That can't be a physical part. I'll guess we won't know for sure until after our resurrection!

This is you putting your own conditions on something no one can really understand. This is God, the Creator that you are expressing doubts about. We don’t know what God can do....so does he have limits in your estimations? Does creation itself indicate that God has limitations? Do we have to know the specifics (which our limited brain capacity could not comprehend) to believe what God says about the resurrection? Can we see and understand the two different resurrections that the Bible speaks about?

1 Corinthians 13 (WEB):

(9) For we know in part, and we prophesy in part;​

i.e. all inspired utterances are but partial revelations of Divine Truth.

(10) but when that which is complete has come, then that which is partial will be done away with.
(12) For now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I will know fully, even as I was also fully known.​

This is Paul speaking about his expectations when he and his fellow anointed ones (elect) are resurrected as part of those with “the heavenly calling”. (Hebrews 3:1) They obviously expected to be resurrected when Jesus completed God’s purpose to bring the rulership of his Kingdom to the earth. No one knew when that was to take place, but Daniel prophesied that all would be revealed in "the time of the end" where we find ourselves right now.
Revelation 21:1-4 tells us that God will be with “men” (mankind/people) as Christ is pictured with his “bride” bringing in the rule of his Kingdom.

When Jesus taught us to pray in Matthew 6:9-10, he gave a list of priorities that we should include....first was the sanctification of God’s name.....a name he revealed to his disciples because by that time the Jews were forbidden to utter it.
And secondly, the coming of God’s kingdom, when God’s will is done “on earth as it is in heaven”.

How does God’s kingdom “come” and when is God’s will done “on earth as it is in heaven”?​

 

[Aunty Jane]

Yes, which is why I asked/said in post #27, "why do you think God created the earth, all life on earth, and mankind? I don't believe that God created man just to be gardeners to keep the earth looking good".

That is certainly NOT what God put us here for. We are his representatives here on this carefully prepared planet, charged with taking care of all the precious life he placed here. We were not just to be gardeners, but representing the Creator himself, endowed with his qualities and creativity to fully administer what we were put here to do. Why do people imagine that they must go to heaven, when it was never in God’s purpose for humankind to go anywhere but here? This earth was designed to be our permanent home. Everlasting life was offered on condition that the humans obey God’s directives so that this planet, out of all that exist in his vast Universe for now, would be a jewel in space, reflecting God’s glory and those made in God’s image, helping to maintain it in pristine condition forever.
That is what I see as our purpose here, but it would only work if we used our free will to honor God, not to honor ourselves.

Paul revealed that mystery to us, Ephesians 1:3-14 (WEB):

Again Paul is speaking as one of the elect. Their “sealing” was their anointing for life in heaven.
It is the natural desire of all humans to live in paradise, but men twisted that desire to mean that paradise must be heaven because life on earth is anything but a bed of roses.

The ‘anointing’ that the elect receive is an implanting of an inordinate desire to go to heaven....it overrides any natural desire to stay here on earth with family and friends, to the point of lamenting the time they must remain here.
Paul expressed it something like having to live in a tent, but waiting to live in a palace with Christ. This desire is very strong in those who receive it.

Only spirit beings can be granted immortality because mortals require external things to keep living. Their lives are sustained on a daily basis by depending on air, food and water to sustain their bodies....but God provided all of that in abundance and offered them the means to keep living indefinitely (the tree of life).....on the condition that they remained obedient to his direction. When they failed to do that, they lost their paradise and their bodily and spiritual perfection to sin....but not forever. The Creator executed a plan to restore all that Adam and his wife lost for the entire human race...."thanks be to Jesus Christ our Lord”.​

Yes, but it doesn't explain how it was done, and whether we are totally physical or if we have a non-physical part to our existence.

We are physical creatures made in God’s image....no other “souls” on this planet are like us. The fact that we have a spiritual side to our nature is reflected in the fact that we alone have an innate need to worship. Human history is filled with all the excursions that humans (alienated from God) have made into the worship of the gods that they created for themselves. To this day, these gods are venerated. But also true is the deviation of the worship of the true God as the Bible clearly reveals. Corrupted humans have led God's worshippers astray by portraying the Creator as something he is not. The Bible itself foretold this....as Jesus said of the Pharisees (Matthew 15:7-9) and as he foretold in his parable of the “wheat and the weeds”. (Matthew 13:24-30) Their worship is “in vain because they teach the commands of men as doctrines”.

Indeed, we do not have an immortal soul (yet!).

There is no such thing as an “immortal soul”. To understand why, you have to know what a “soul” is....the word in both Hebrew and Greek means "a living, breathing creature" (man and animals)....it never refers to a disembodied spirit. Those who are resurrected to heaven are given a spirit body in order to exist in the presence of God. Only spirit beings can have immortality and only the elect are promised this.
For their subjects on earth, everlasting life is what God held out to the first humans and this is what he will restore. “Everlasting life” in mortal flesh is not “immortality”, (which actually means having the power of an indestructible life.....deathless)....never being able to die for any reason.

Ah, but was it? Jesus and Paul say the dead are sleeping, not that they no longer exist.

“Sleeping” is a state of unconsciousness. (Ecclesiastes 9:5, 10) Where are the dead sleeping?
From where does Christ call them? If God remembers all the hairs on our head, how can he not recreate us exactly as we were? Do we really need to know *how*?

No, we should not question God's ability to do what He says He will do. I'm just trying to understand the reality of how he is able to do that.

I don’t think in our present state that we have the ability to understand more than the basic outline....so faith means just accepting what God says without the need to “understand the reality”.....we will all know what God wants us to know in due time.....

 

[Aunty Jane]

All Christians are the elect.

Since the elect will be all be “kings and priests” ruling with Christ in heaven, (Revelation 20:6) each and one specially chosen by God for that role, how can all Christians fit that description? That would be like having “all Chiefs and no Indians”.....the elect are the ‘rulers and priests’ for those who are not chosen as “saints” (holy ones).

Paul put it this way....in his first letter to the Corinthians....
1 Corinthians 1:2...
“To the church of God which is in Corinth, to those who have been sanctified in Christ Jesus, saints by calling, with all who in every place call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, their Lord and ours”. (NASB)

The “saints” are ‘called’ and they are in company with those who are not called, but who together, collectively call on the name of their Lord Jesus. All are Christians, but with different destinies. Those not called are not jealous of those who are, because they know it is God’s choosing, not theirs.

I believe that the JW interpretation that only 144,000 go to heaven and all other Christians (and non-Christians) are resurrected as humans is incorrect, based on a misunderstanding of who the 144,000 are. Christians follow in the footsteps of Jesus, sacrificing their human lives too, so that they may share in Jesus' inheritance - a heavenly inheritance. Romans 8:16-17 (WEB):

(16) The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God;
(17) and if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint heirs with Christ; if indeed we suffer with him, that we may also be glorified with him.​

Yes, this well describes those of the elect.....but in Revelation 7 we see two groups mentioned....a finite group seen in heaven with Jesus (144,000 members of spiritual Israel) contrasted with a second group of infinite number, who attribute salvation to God and his Christ...they are said to “come out of the great tribulation”, which occurs on earth at the end of this world system of things.....

“And I heard the number of those who were sealed: 144,000, sealed from every tribe of the sons of Israel. . . . . After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could count, from every nation and all the tribes, peoples, and languages, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, and palm branches were in their hands; and they cried out with a loud voice, saying, “ Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb.” . . . . .Then one of the elders responded, saying to me, “These who are clothed in the white robes, who are they, and where have they come from?” I said to him, “My lord, you know.” And he said to me, “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. . . . .for the Lamb in the center of the throne will be their shepherd, and will guide them to springs of the water of life; and God will wipe every tear from their eyes.” (Revelation 7:4,9-10,13-NASB)

This is in line with Revelation 21:3-4....depicting the life we can expect when the kingdom takes over rulership of this earth so that God’s original purpose can be reinstated....Jesus and his elect (144,000) will "shepherd" those of "the great multitude" and guide them to 'waters of life'.

“And I heard a loud voice from the throne, saying, “Behold, the tabernacle of God is among the people, [men] and He will dwell among them, and they shall be His people, and God Himself will be among them, and He will wipe away every tear from their eyes; and there will no longer be any death; there will no longer be any mourning, or crying, or pain; the first things have passed away.” And He who sits on the throne said, “Behold, I am making all things new.” And He said, “Write, for these words are faithful and true.” (Revelation 21:3-5 - NASB)

We have so much to look forward to..... the restoration of God’s first purpose.....what God starts, he finishes. (Isaiah 55:11) His first purpose never became obsolete or could ever go unfulfilled because of something his free willed creatures did. He simply took a detour to sort out the problem so that it could all go ahead as he willed it to.

Jesus promised the thief hung alongside of him....”you will be with me in paradise”....he was promising him an earthly resurrection as one of those who did evil deeds, but paid for them with his own life. (John 5:28-29) He was not promised heaven, but Jesus’ sacrifice guaranteed him a resurrection back to life on earth in paradise restored.

 

[face2face]

Satan was formerly a faithful angel, who abused his free will and tempted the first humans to disobey their Creator thus separating them from him.
Ezekiel tells us that he was a guardian Cherub in the garden of Eden.
God addressed this to the King of Tyre, but it is clearly aimed at satan....

Ezekiel 28:12-17
"You had the seal of perfection,
Full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.
13 You were in Eden, the garden of God;
Every precious stone was your covering. . . .
And the gold, the workmanship of your settings and sockets,
Was in you.
On the day that you were created
They were prepared.
14 You were the anointed cherub who covers,
And I placed you there.
You were on the holy mountain of God;
You walked in the midst of the stones of fire.
15 You were blameless in your ways
From the day you were created
Until unrighteousness was found in you. . . .
Your heart was haughty because of your beauty;
You corrupted your wisdom by reason of your splendor."

He was there in a position of responsibility fulfilling his assignment. But being right there, he began to envy the worship that these new creatures would give to God, thinking that he was so magnificent that he deserved to be worshipped....so he plotted to take the humans away from him, and steal their worship for himself......he lied to the woman and through her, he also got to her husband....and now we are all caught up in satan's trap (Romans 5:12).....but not for much longer, because God planned a rescue mission at the very beginning. Jesus would come and offer his life for ours.....and after the appointed time he would return and establish God's Kingdom over the earth and restore all that we lost in Eden. (Revelation 21:2-4) This includes the promised resurrection. (John 5:28-29)

You were going along well Jane until you dealt with the Serpent which God had made! Just a cunning animal able to voice the carnal mind. We have long established Ezekiel 28 has nothing at all to do with a fallen angel. Actually I cant believe you can teach this after being exposed to the true interpretation.

King of Tyre or a Supernatural Creature of Darkness

I will followup with the truth concerning the serpent animal.

Imagine the consequences to your theology if you get Genesis 2&3 wrong? So detrimental.

F2F

 

[face2face]

It's unfortunate for Christians to be taught the fallen angel story from Genesis. To get their foundation wrong from the very beginning causes so much grief to doctrine and the interpretation of the Lords final words to his servants in Revelation. The serpent and its symbology is critical to understanding the book ends.

As Aunty Jane has shown Genesis speaks of the natural creation in chapter 1 while the Revelation speaks to the spiritual creation as per Revelation 3:14; in Genesis the serpent speaks; in Revelation it is restrained (Revelation 20:2).

In Genesis the curse is imposed (Genesis 3:17); in Revelation it is removed (Revelation 22:3).

In Genesis sorrow and death make their appearance (Genesis 3:16-19); while in Revelation they are taken away (Revelation 21:4).

In Genesis access to the tree of life is denied (Genesis 3:24); in Revelation, access to it is opened (Revelation 2:7).

In Genesis the first paradise is closed to man (Genesis 3:23); in Revelation it is opened to him (Revelation 21:25).

They are book ends! and to falter as @Aunty Jane has done in her exposition of the Serpent results in tragic consequences for the rest of Scripture.

By the way no other two books have been attacked more than these so as Christians we ought to be very careful how we treat the text. Aunty Jane forcing fallen angel theology in a book and chapter which is totally silent in every way should ring alarm bells. She is simply regurgitating doctrine taught to her from a child and its totally false.

 

[face2face]

Why dont you ask Aunty Jane why God choose to reveal this fallen angel story in Ezekiel 28 during the judgements of Tyre in Tyrus? What the relevance? And why are the Children of Israel oblivious to such a being not spoken of anywhere in the entire Torah?

The first lesson on the Serpent is this; Scripture uses the Serpent firstly as an animal, as it does in Genesis, and secondly as a symbol. Both are misunderstood and twisted by Aunty Jane.

TBC.

 

[Jack]

I strongly suspect Hell will be filled with people who don't believe in Hell. God doesn't have to ask permission to burn people in Hell.

 

[face2face]

I strongly suspect Hell will be filled with people who don't believe in Hell.

I dont know many people who dont know and understand they will end up in the grave....do you? I think it fair most people in their lifetime will attend a funeral. Lol

 

[face2face]

God doesn't have to ask permission to burn people in Hell.

This is another false teaching which has crept in...imagine your view of a God who allows what Christians say is His immortal soul to be tortured and burn forever. Most Christians are dumb...(said as respectfully as I can) they swallow nonsensical ideas without even thinking about how illogical they are. I mean, on one hand the Christian extols God virtues of being loving and compassionate and then you go and say that.

I've harped on for so long about understanding Bible Imagery and how the writer wants to convey the seriousness of being buried in the ground for ever never to exist at all - the burning analogy is a good one!

I dont know how to help the misled Christian - its such a burden to carry.

F2F