What does Colossians 1:16 mean when it says "For by him were all things created..."

[Aunty Jane]

What a shame! When she needs community support more than ever, she is abandoned.

As Aunty Jane said, there are 2 sides to every story. Maybe the elders thought it best to use her as an example to other unmarried young women.

The community support was there, but apparently she only wanted things her own way, not God’s way.
She would have received counsel and scriptural admonition but the decisions were all hers. The elders would have acted accordingly.

Her daughter has grown up and became very successful and well known in the community.

And this means what? How “successful” are we to God if we do not serve his interests in our community? Did her daughter grow up knowing the true God, or only the one that Christendom invented? Did the mother’s actions benefit her daughter in the more important ways? Time will tell.

Jehovah ‘visits the sins of the [parents] upon the children’.....freewill is free, but not free of consequences.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Agreed, there are 2 sides to the story. That’s why I did not state my judgment on the matter, only what my SIL has said.

To elaborate, he said he’s tried to leave several times and the acted the way he did to get effectively banished. No longer considering himself part of the religion, half his family still shuns the other half.

It didn’t have to be that way. You say he “tried to leave” but he already knew that you cannot “leave” and still be seen as a good influence on your spiritual family members.

He could simply have stopped all his activities and become inactive, but there must have been issues and his behavior obviously left the elders with no choice. He knew what he was doing, and it was his decision that divided his family, not JW’s. It sounds like he did this deliberately. When you leave Jehovah, he withdraws his spirit, and that person will often hit rock bottom like the prodigal son......but rock bottom is a place where the only way is up. You can stay there and be miserable, or you can use it as leverage to get back up again. The Father is waiting and will run to meet a genuinely repentant one. We are often our own worst enemies.....we want our cake and eat it too.

 

[Wrangler]

But now I am writing you to stop keeping company with anyone called a brother who is sexually immoral

Here, you might be falsely equating a girl who WAS sexually immoral (and got pregnant out of wedlock) with one actively engaging in sexual immorality.

I realize the details of the event have not been forthcoming. However, several women on these boards questioned the wisdom of limiting marriage to only a legal ceremony.

The time for dissension is in the time before a commitment to baptism. It is not like joining a club

Here, you are clearly and falsely equating a denomination with Christ. We are baptized in the name of Jesus, not a denomination.

In my SIL’s case, I wonder how much free will there was in him joining the JW club?

In my case, I knew I had enough of RCC before Confirmation. My mother demanded I stay involved so that I could one day get married in a RCC Church. She added that after that I can drop out if I want. I told her this action plan makes a mockery of what it means to receive the Sacrament of Confirmation. She was OK with that and my father supported her hypocrisy.

I’m somewhat glad that I live in a country that recognizes rescinding such ‘lifetime’ commitments to fellow humans and clubs.

 

[Wrangler]

You say he “tried to leave” but he already knew that you cannot “leave” and still be seen as a good influence on your spiritual family members.

I’m not exactly sure what that means. It sounds like the introduction of why many call the JW a cult, invoking all manner of coercive manipulations, including guilt complexes.

He could not care less how he is seen by JW elders.

It’s too bad he did not know me then for the Wrangler surely would have strengthened his skillset to effectively handle not being ‘seen as a good influence on your spiritual family members’ as his main concern was his ongoing relationship with his biological family members.

 

[Peterlag]

John Calvin, who has ruined much of Christianity, doctrinally, as much as the devil could have ever hoped for, once helped a believer be burned at the stake, because this believer did not recognize from scriptures, the "Trinity".

Its a good thing that J.Calvin is not running the show in '2022, or many of you would be up in smoke by now.

Many of us went up in smoke. This trinity did not get poplar because it makes sense but because the smart people were all stoned.

 

[Peterlag]

It's amazing how many hoops you will jump through to deny what the Bible clearly says.

Well, you keep talking about John 1:1 so I wrote it down for you.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Here, you might be falsely equating a girl who WAS sexually immoral (and got pregnant out of wedlock) with one actively engaging in sexual immorality.

No, it’s more to do with what you’ve already done and how you feel about it....the engagement has already taken place and the pregnancy confirmed it....was it a once off mistake? Or were this couple in an intimate relationship for some time before the pregnancy occurred....God knows.

I realize the details of the event have not been forthcoming. However, several women on these boards questioned the wisdom of limiting marriage to only a legal ceremony.

Marriage is God’s arrangement and from what we read in the scriptures, it was a sacred union with regulations to govern what was acceptable to God, and even what was socially acceptable. In Bible times a marriage required a divorce to end it. It was a legal agreement that requires another legal agreement to end it. Nothing has changed, certainly not from God’s viewpoint...who cares what “women on these boards” think?

Here, you are clearly and falsely equating a denomination with Christ. We are baptized in the name of Jesus, not a denomination.

I am equating baptism with what was required of the first Christians, who were all Jewish, and so John’s baptism was required to even put oneself in line to become a disciple of Christ. It indicated that these Jews were in the right (repentant) frame of mind to receive the teachings of their Messiah.

Once they had learned about the things Jesus exposed concerning the Pharisees and their “leaven”, (Mark 8:15, Matthew 23:33) these ones would then be baptized again in the name of Jesus, in full recognition of what that meant. The Jews as a nation were dedicated to God from birth, and obligated to keep God’s law, but Christians had to choose to come under “the law of the Christ” by adhering to all that Jesus (and later his apostles) taught. That is NOT getting baptized in the name of a denomination. The elders in the congregation were authorised by Jesus to judge wrongdoing inside the congregation, while God judges those outside. They were to keep the congregation clean of immorality and spiritual leaven.....(Hebrews 13:7, 17)....otherwise you end up like Christendom...divided and hopelessly disunited.

In my SIL’s case, I wonder how much free will there was in him joining the JW club?

Only he can answer that. If he had the attitude that he was ‘joining a club’ and could do as he pleased, his ignorance did him no favors....did it?

In my case, I knew I had enough of RCC before Confirmation. My mother demanded I stay involved so that I could one day get married in a RCC Church. She added that after that I can drop out if I want. I told her this action plan makes a mockery of what it means to receive the Sacrament of Confirmation. She was OK with that and my father supported her hypocrisy.

We have both come out of Christendom’s hypocrisy, only from different branches. Our choices reflect what our own hearts are seeking.

I’m somewhat glad that I live in a country that recognizes rescinding such ‘lifetime’ commitments to fellow humans and clubs.

There is “rescinding”....and there is “fooling yourself” about what *freedom* you actually have in trying to undo a scripturally binding agreement. God recognises vows and covenants.....we make them of our own free will....but do we honour them? It is a vow to God after all. (Ecclesiastes 5:4; Matthew 5:33)

 

[Aunty Jane]

I’m not exactly sure what that means. It sounds like the introduction of why many call the JW a cult, invoking all manner of coercive manipulations, including guilt complexes.

It is based entirely on first century practice as we read in the scriptures....God does not alter his standards to please us....we have to alter our standards to please him. The world is getting further and further away from God, so how closely do we adhere to his word and the teachings of his Christ in this environment? Do we toe the line or do we tip toe over it to make things easier on ourselves.
Why is the cramped and narrow road to life way harder than the easy road to death? Who is travelling the hard road, and who has chosen the easy way by altering the rules?

He could not care less how he is seen by JW elders.

It’s too bad he did not know me then for the Wrangler surely would have strengthened his skillset to effectively handle not being ‘seen as a good influence on your spiritual family members’ as his main concern was his ongoing relationship with his biological family members.

Yep...wants his cake and eat it too. He has invented his own rules and wants to impose them on others....his defection is clear, but he wants to keep what is no longer rightfully his.

What did Jesus say?....Matthew 10:34-38..
“Do not think I came to bring peace to the earth; I came to bring, not peace, but a sword. 35 For I came to cause division, with a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law. 36 Indeed, a man’s enemies will be those of his own household. 37 Whoever has greater affection for father or mother than for me is not worthy of me; and whoever has greater affection for son or daughter than for me is not worthy of me. 38 And whoever does not accept his torture stake and follow after me is not worthy of me.”

Do you think Jesus doesn’t mean what he said? The sword is there, dividing even family members from one another. Who can remain faithful in those emotionally charged circumstances? The genuine Christians know.

 

[RLT63]

This is the inevitable result of a lack of explicit Scripture. There is no such diversity regarding what day man was created on.

I don't understand the connection. Man was created on the 6th day. Many disagree on how long a day was.

 

[RLT63]

The community support was there, but apparently she only wanted things her own way, not God’s way.
She would have received counsel and scriptural admonition but the decisions were all hers. The elders would have acted accordingly.


And this means what? How “successful” are we to God if we do not serve his interests in our community? Did her daughter grow up knowing the true God, or only the one that Christendom invented? Did the mother’s actions benefit her daughter in the more important ways? Time will tell.

Jehovah ‘visits the sins of the [parents] upon the children’.....freewill is free, but not free of consequences.

Her daughter did nothing wrong even by your standards. You seem ready to judge her without knowing anything about her. Maybe she's not a JW and that seems to be all that matters to you.

 

[RLT63]

Well, you keep talking about John 1:1 so I wrote it down for you.

Okay thanks

 

[Mr E]

It is based entirely on first century practice as we read in the scriptures....God does not alter his standards to please us....we have to alter our standards to please him. The world is getting further and further away from God, so how closely do we adhere to his word and the teachings of his Christ in this environment? Do we toe the line or do we tip toe over it to make things easier on ourselves.
Why is the cramped and narrow road to life way harder than the easy road to death? Who is travelling the hard road, and who has chosen the easy way by altering the rules?


Yep...wants his cake and eat it too. He has invented his own rules and wants to impose them on others....his defection is clear, but he wants to keep what is no longer rightfully his.

What did Jesus say?....Matthew 10:34-38..
“Do not think I came to bring peace to the earth; I came to bring, not peace, but a sword. 35 For I came to cause division, with a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law. 36 Indeed, a man’s enemies will be those of his own household. 37 Whoever has greater affection for father or mother than for me is not worthy of me; and whoever has greater affection for son or daughter than for me is not worthy of me. 38 And whoever does not accept his torture stake and follow after me is not worthy of me.”

Do you think Jesus doesn’t mean what he said? The sword is there, dividing even family members from one another. Who can remain faithful in those emotionally charged circumstances? The genuine Christians know.

Truly nauseating. Christ came to convey the message that men were getting it wrong. That men had strayed far from His intent. Religious men.

 

[Wrangler]

Yep...wants his cake and eat it too. He has invented his own rules and wants to impose them on others

No. It’s the exact opposite. He just wanted to be left alone by JW. They used his family to harass him and it made things much, MUCH worse for all concerned.

Seems the JW coercion tactics brought out the worst in all concerned.

 

[Wrangler]

It is based entirely on first century practice as we read in the scriptures

TOTALLY WRONG! The Bible says to leave the guy, not invoke all manner of coercive, harassing and manipulations to bring the guy back by any means.

 

[Wrangler]

I don't understand the connection. Man was created on the 6th day.

Exactly. You conclude so concisely because Scripture is explicit. When Eve was created is not explicit. So, we could speculate all kinds of scenarios.

Why don’t we speculate on when Eve was created but what happens after we are resurrected?

 

[RLT63]

Yes there is all kind of conjecture

 

[Wrangler]

Yes there is all kind of conjecture

And I think it is OK to speculate so long as you keep your feet on the ground, keep distinct what we know through explicit text from how ambiguous verses could be taken - but are not necessary consequences.

Knowing we more or less agree on politics, let me reference public policy matters relative to the explicit text of the US Constitution: guns and abortion.

I’ve pointed out to abortionists who are anti-gun what the explicit text says and does not say. It is obvious. The Constitutional support for guns is as strong as can be worded but silent (ambiguous) about abortion. They have a hard time admitting the obvious truth.

 

[RLT63]

TOTALLY WRONG! The Bible says to leave the guy, not invoke all manner of coercive, harassing and manipulations to bring the guy back by any means.

I'm not Catholic but this article uses JWs own material to show multiple times they have changed their position on key issues. The Watchtower's Flickering Light

 

[Aunty Jane]

Her daughter did nothing wrong even by your standards. You seem ready to judge her without knowing anything about her. Maybe she's not a JW and that seems to be all that matters to you.

I am not judging her, merely telling you from the other side of the story to explain why some act like the victim when they were actually the perpetrators....responsible for their own behavior and the consequences that follow.

As I mentioned, I have had a few members of my own family disfellowshipped for serious breaches of God's law, and all but one has returned, chastened and grateful to be "home".....like the prodigal son. That parable is not there for no reason. If the father in the parable represents God and the sons are those who are dedicated to him, the younger son decided that he would take his inheritance and go and live the way he wanted to. The Father did not stop him, but let him go without any further contact. It wasn't until the son hit rock bottom that he realized that the world and false friends are not what he thought they would be....so he felt regret about his actions and in dire circumstances, he decided to return home to his father.....but how did he return? What attitude did he display? Were there demands about how things should be if he came back? Was he in a position to dictate the terms? Or was his return with a contrite heart, feeling unworthy of receiving his father's forgiveness?
That is what our heavenly Father looks for in his erring children. Discipline is done out of love as Paul said...
Hebrews 12:5-6....
"And you have entirely forgotten the exhortation that addresses you as sons: “My son, do not belittle the discipline from Jehovah, nor give up when you are corrected by him; 6 for those whom Jehovah loves he disciplines, in fact, he scourges everyone whom he receives as a son.”

Those who think that God does not approve of warranted discipline are dead wrong about that.
Solomon wrote..."Because sentence against a bad deed has not been executed speedily, the heart of men becomes emboldened to do bad."
We don't discipline our own children because we hate them.

If the girl's mother knew Jehovah, was dedicated as a disciple of Christ, but committed immorality with an unbeliever anyway, can she be surprised by the discipline? Did she not know better? Was there an excuse?

Did the mother keep knowledge from her daughter in telling one side of the story that led to her birth?
As I said, no one is disfellowshipped unless there are valid scriptural grounds. We don’t know the circumstances, but even committing immorality will not result in disfellowshipping if there was genuine repentance....God is all about forgiveness, but our conduct is also about the exercise of free will....and copping it on the chin when we are disciplined.
God does not force us to comply with his laws, but we understand that there are penalties if we don't. That is the way the world operates...is it not?

We don’t know what story her daughter was told, but it’s human nature to minimize what we do wrong, and to exaggerate what the other person did to paint ourselves in a better light. At the end of the day, Jehovah knows....so no one gets away with anything.

 

[Matthias]

I'm not Catholic but this article uses JWs own material to show multiple times they have changed their position on key issues. The Watchtower's Flickering Light

See the early Church Fathers for “changing their position on key issues.”

Had they not, the Church wouldn’t have developed the doctrine of …. a number of things.