What does Colossians 1:16 mean when it says "For by him were all things created..."

[Aunty Jane]

TOTALLY WRONG! The Bible says to leave the guy, not invoke all manner of coercive, harassing and manipulations to bring the guy back by any means.

Actually that is not what is ever recommended by the elders.....perhaps the coercion was out of the concern of the family members themselves...not something that they were instructed to do. I know that when we disassociated from the ones who were disfellowshipped in my family, it drove home the gravity of what they had done, and it made them aware that reinstatement was something that was up to them. There was no coercion or badgering because that is not what prompts heartfelt repentance.....the Father waits with open arms.....but not for unrepentant ones. You have to come back on his terms.....accepting your own part in receiving the discipline, and using it to rethink your position.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Her daughter did nothing wrong even by your standards. You seem ready to judge her without knowing anything about her. Maybe she's not a JW and that seems to be all that matters to you.

I am not judging her, merely telling you the other side of the story to explain why some act like the victim when they were actually the perpetrator....paying a penalty for their own behavior but unwilling to accept responsibility for it.

If her mother knew Jehovah, was dedicated as a disciple of Christ, but committed immorality with an unbeliever anyway, can she be surprised by the discipline? Did she not know better? Was there an excuse to offer to God?

Did the mother keep knowledge from her daughter in telling one side of the story that led to her birth?
As I said, no one is disfellowshipped unless there are valid scriptural grounds. We don’t know the circumstances, but even committing immorality will not result in disfellowshipping if there was genuine repentance....God is all about forgiveness, but it’s also about the exercise of free will.

We don’t know what story her daughter was told, but we can assume that it was a sanitized version of what really happened...as it almost always is, told from the standpoint of the “victim”.
It’s human nature to minimise what we do wrong, and to exaggerate what the other person did to paint ourselves in a better light. At the end of the day, Jehovah knows.

 

[Behold]

One of my trinitarian professor’s used to say “Theology is a mine field.” He’s right. It is.

I think my version is a little more eye-catching, but his is dramatic too. The point is made either way.

The carnal mind in an unbeliever is the same carnal mind in a believer, until the born again believer, "RENEWS" their mind as Paul Teaches.

The mind and the body are not born again. So, you have to renew your mind, by having the correct faith....= the correct understanding of faith.

The "renewed mind" walks in the Spirit, and the un-renewed mind walks in the flesh.

To walk in the Spirit is to rest in God's Grace.
To walk in the Flesh is to try to accomplish God's Grace by Self effort.

2 minds, one is "fallen from Grace." and one is "renewed".

 

[RLT63]

See the early Church Fathers for “changing their position on key issues.”

Had they not, the Church wouldn’t have developed the doctrine of …. a number of things.

Did they change their position or did they grow as their knowledge increased? Did they reverse their position or did they build on it? For instance JWs claimed that when their membership reached 144,0000 the world would end and God would create a new world. Obviously they had to change their position on that. Did you read the article? Knowing you, it's most likely that you did. Development of Jehovah's Witnesses doctrine - Wikipedia.

 

[Wrangler]

I'm not Catholic but this article uses JWs own material to show multiple times they have changed their position on key issues. The Watchtower's Flickering Light

Thanks. I'm not so concerned about their doctrine but their cult obsession with controlling their members. In the case of my SIL, they sent squads to intimidate family members to shun him - even those who are no longer JW.

If you read what @Aunty Jane wrote, she said that there really is no process where one is no longer considered by JW to no longer be a member; one is merely deemed 'inactive.'

They even sent intimidation squads to my SIL's place of business. This is so opposite from the Spirit of God, the Spirit of Christ, only those who never knew it could act in such a repugnant manner. IMO, it gives a bad name to all Christians. The RCC never did that to me.

 

[Matthias]

Did they change their position or did they grow as their knowledge increased? Did they reverse their position or did they build on it?

Yes to both. And in so-doing they wound up far away from where the Church began.

For instance JWs claimed that when their membership reached 144,0000 the world would end and God would create a new world. Obviously they had to change their position on that. Did you read the article? Knowing you, it's most likely that you did. Development of Jehovah's Witnesses doctrine - Wikipedia.

What have the JW’s said in response?

 

[RLT63]

Thanks. I'm not so concerned about their doctrine but their cult obsession with controlling their members. In the case of my SIL, they sent squads to intimidate family members to shun him - even those who are no longer JW.

If you read what @Aunty Jane wrote, she said that there really is no process where one is no longer considered by JW to no longer be a member; one is merely deemed 'inactive.'

They even sent intimidation squads to my SIL's place of business. This is so opposite from the Spirit of God, the Spirit of Christ, only those who never knew it could act in such a repugnant manner. IMO, it gives a bad name to all Christians. The RCC never did that to me.

From what I understand there was a service at the Kingdom Hall where all the members turned their backs to her and shunned her.

 

[RLT63]

Yes to both. And in so-doing they wound up far away from where the Church began.



What have the JW’s said in response?

I don't know. Their membership exceeded 144,000 so they had to change their position

 

[Mr E]

I don't know. Their membership exceeded 144,000 so they had to change their position

From what I understand it's a limited number, so that's why they "do works" so that they can make the list. Only 144,000 will "make it" so if you aren't a top contender for the faith-- you better work harder or someone who is doing more than you is going to bump you.

That's why they all dress up and go door knocking. Working their way into the Kingdom and they think they earn extra credit if persecuted-- that means if someone slams the door in their face, they get a star. Collect enough points and you move up the list and 'hopefully' into the Top 144k.

It's network marketing for Jesus.

 

[RLT63]

From what I understand it's a limited number, so that's why they "do works" so that they can make the list. Only 144,000 will "make it" so if you aren't a top contender for the faith-- you better work harder or someone who is doing more than you is going to bump you.

That's why they all dress up and go door knocking. Working their way into the Kingdom and they think they earn extra credit if persecuted-- that means if someone slams the door in their face, they get a star. Collect enough points and you move up the list and 'hopefully' into the Top 144k.

It's network marketing for Jesus.

I knew a Baptist preacher who witnessed to people like he was selling vacuum cleaners. He believed he was storing treasure in Heaven and he would worry people until they gave in, like a salesman.

 

[Wrangler]

From what I understand there was a service at the Kingdom Hall where all the members turned their backs to her and shunned her.

Reminds of the Klingons in Star Trek.

I don't mind that. If I decided not to go the my non-denominational church, I wouldn't expect to ever see them again, except randomly in places we frequent, like stores. I'm pretty sure they would not embark on a campaign of harassment and intimidation, involving family, friends, neighbors and coworkers.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Thanks. I'm not so concerned about their doctrine but their cult obsession with controlling their members. In the case of my SIL, they sent squads to intimidate family members to shun him - even those who are no longer JW.

I’m sorry but this is seriously bogus. This is NOT what we do at all. Not even close.

If you read what @Aunty Jane wrote, she said that there really is no process where one is no longer considered by JW to no longer be a member; one is merely deemed 'inactive.'

Another misquotation. That is not what I said at all. If one no longer wants to be one of Jehovah’s Witnesses, they can offer a letter of resignation stating that they no longer wish to be one of Jehovah’s Witnesses, in which case is an act of self-disfellowshipping. The vows made are still broken and the offender has removed themselves from our ranks. They will no longer be deemed fit company, especially if they have become apostate and actively oppose us. Why would we want association with such people? As Jesus said ‘if we have more affection for family members than for him, we are not worthy of him.’

They even sent intimidation squads to my SIL's place of business. This is so opposite from the Spirit of God, the Spirit of Christ, only those who never knew it could act in such a repugnant manner. IMO, it gives a bad name to all Christians. The RCC never did that to me.

Oh please.....this is rubbish......Aren’t you taking someone’s word for something you never witnessed? This is not, and never has been a policy among my brotherhood. So I am not sure what this “intimidation squad” was supposed to be....in all my 50 years as a Witness, I have never heard of such a thing. It is not our place to control people or to coerce them into submission. That is not the kind of Christian we ever want to be.
If we will not willingly submit to God from our hearts, then he has no time for us.....”pretend Christians” will exist even in our ranks no doubt, but they are not fooling the one who judges us. There is one truth...not many versions of it.

I am reading the most slanderous “hear-say” from those who apparently want to believe every vile thing that is said about us.....didn’t Jesus and his disciples experience the same thing? He told us that people would hate us and slander us, just the same way as he was.....and most of it would come from those who purport to worship the same God, just as it was in the first century.

Why would Jesus have to say....
“Happy are you when people reproach you and persecute you and lyingly say every sort of wicked thing against you for my sake. 12 Rejoice and be overjoyed, since your reward is great in the heavens, for in that way they persecuted the prophets prior to you.” ?

And why did he warn his disciples....
“If the world hates you, you know that it has hated me before it hated you. 19 If you were part of the world, the world would be fond of what is its own. Now because you are no part of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, for this reason the world hates you. 20 Keep in mind the word I said to you: A slave is not greater than his master. If they have persecuted me, they will also persecute you; if they have observed my word, they will also observe yours. 21 But they will do all these things against you on account of my name, because they do not know the One who sent me.”

Why would there be persecution and lies? Because the devil doesn’t want the truth told.
What do JW’s do to deserve what they receive? They live their Christianity and do what Jesus told them to do....preach about his kingdom and expose the lies that are told in his name.
At Matthew 7:13-14, Jesus tells us that “few” are on the road to life......why would that be?

He also informed us that at the judgment, so-called ‘Christians’ would offer him their excuses in defence of his absolute rejection of them.....so, who are those who call him “Lord” but who fail to live up to his commands? (Matthew 7:21-23) That would be the majority, whilst the hated minority continue to obey their Master.

I am very disappointed in those who buy into the slander and spread it as if they actually know the truth about these things.....one side of a story is NEVER the WHOLE truth, which is why we have judicial systems in our respective nations that must hear both sides of every case and judge accordingly....on the actual evidence. “Hear-say” is not admissible.

Half truths are often worse than lies.....those who spread the lies are as bad as the ones who tell the original. Self justification does awful things to people. We will be judged as we judge.

 

[Aunty Jane]

From what I understand it's a limited number, so that's why they "do works" so that they can make the list. Only 144,000 will "make it" so if you aren't a top contender for the faith-- you better work harder or someone who is doing more than you is going to bump you.

That's why they all dress up and go door knocking. Working their way into the Kingdom and they think they earn extra credit if persecuted-- that means if someone slams the door in their face, they get a star. Collect enough points and you move up the list and 'hopefully' into the Top 144k.

It's network marketing for Jesus.

Here’s another slanderous post....why do you people never ask for the other side of the story...?
So ready to judge on hear-say.....you should be ashamed of yourselves. This is not even close to what we do or why we do it.

The “works” we do are in obedience to the command that Christ gave his disciples before he returned to heaven.....the “great commission”...remember? You know the one that the churches of Christendom make excuses not to fulfill.
Matthew 28:19-20...
“Go, therefore, and make disciples of people of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the holy spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all the things I have commanded you. And look! I am with you all the days until the conclusion of the system of things.”+

This was not optional....it was a command.

How did Jesus send his disciples out to preach?
“Into whatever city or village you enter, search out who in it is deserving, and stay there until you leave. 12 When you enter the house, greet the household. 13 If the house is deserving, let the peace you wish it come upon it; but if it is not deserving, let the peace from you return upon you. 14 Wherever anyone does not receive you or listen to your words, on going out of that house or that city, shake the dust off your feet.”

Who is known the world over for carrying out this work relentlessly for over 100 years?

James 2:14, 18, 24, 26....
“Of what benefit is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but he does not have works? That faith cannot save him, can it? . . . .Nevertheless, someone will say: “You have faith, and I have works. Show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works. . . .You see that a man is to be declared righteous by works and not by faith alone. 26 Indeed, just as the body without spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.”

When was the last time a member of any of your churches called on people to give them the “good news of the Kingdom” It was to be “preached in all the inhabited earth” and Jesus said he would be with his disciples in doing it. Matthew 24:14 is part of Jesus prophesy on the end of the current world system...the time of his return. This is “the time of the end”.....a time to make decisions about what is truth and what isn’t. God will not make those decisions for us....we will all be accountable to the same judge.

 

[Wrangler]

I’m sorry but this is seriously bogus.

No. It is a true experience with JW my SIL had. He has no reason to lie to me. In fact, the pain on his face was palpable when he told the story. He did not want to elaborate on what happened; a common trait among abuse victims who feel shame for being victimized.

He told me how the troubles began. Being a good little JW, he missed his HS graduation to get married the 1st time. Neither he nor his wife were ready to get married, financially or emotionally, but they felt it was ‘the right thing’ 3 kids later his wife abandoned him and the kids.

I can’t recall all the details after that but he tried to live ‘a normal life’ but failed to meet the JW standard.

Aren’t you taking someone’s word for something you never witnessed?

Yes. Judges and juries do it all the time.

I will ask him why he didn’t just formally withdraw from JW as you outlined. I do apologize if I did not paraphrase you accurately. I’ll keep you posted on his response.

“Hear-say” is not admissible.

Fortunately, this is not a criminal trial.

Beyond that, my SIL’s testimony is direct eye witness corroborated by literally half his family.

 

[Mr E]

Here’s another slanderous post....why do you people never ask for the other side of the story...?
So ready to judge on hear-say.....you should be ashamed of yourselves. This is not even close to what we do or why we do it.

The “works” we do are in obedience to the command that Christ gave his disciples before he returned to heaven.....the “great commission”...remember? You know the one that the churches of Christendom make excuses not to fulfill.
Matthew 28:19-20...
“Go, therefore, and make disciples of people of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the holy spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all the things I have commanded you. And look! I am with you all the days until the conclusion of the system of things.”+

This was not optional....it was a command.

How did Jesus send his disciples out to preach?
“Into whatever city or village you enter, search out who in it is deserving, and stay there until you leave. 12 When you enter the house, greet the household. 13 If the house is deserving, let the peace you wish it come upon it; but if it is not deserving, let the peace from you return upon you. 14 Wherever anyone does not receive you or listen to your words, on going out of that house or that city, shake the dust off your feet.”

Who is known the world over for carrying out this work relentlessly for over 100 years?

James 2:14, 18, 24, 26....
“Of what benefit is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but he does not have works? That faith cannot save him, can it? . . . .Nevertheless, someone will say: “You have faith, and I have works. Show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works. . . .You see that a man is to be declared righteous by works and not by faith alone. 26 Indeed, just as the body without spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.”

When was the last time a member of any of your churches called on people to give them the “good news of the Kingdom” It was to be “preached in all the inhabited earth” and Jesus said he would be with his disciples in doing it. Matthew 24:14 is part of Jesus prophesy on the end of the current world system...the time of his return. This is “the time of the end”.....a time to make decisions about what is truth and what isn’t. God will not make those decisions for us....we will all be accountable to the same judge.

You didn't really counter anything I said of substance. Are there ONLY 144000 and you have to be a 'top performer' to get your name on that list---- or not?

Maybe before accusing me of slander, try addressing the substance.

 

[Aunty Jane]

You didn't really counter anything I said of substance. Are there ONLY 144000 and you have to be a 'top performer' to get your name on that list---- or not?

Maybe before accusing me of slander, try addressing the substance.

The problem was, the misinformation was conveyed before it was corroborated by you....

Shouldn’t you get your facts straight before you tell things that are just based on hear-say? That is actually gossip. Do you care if it is slander? Would you like lies told about you? Shouldn’t you actually ask for the other side of the story first? I was raised in Christendom, so I know what they teach. I chose to become a JW in my twenties. I have been on both sides and after a thorough study of the Bible, I know who tells the truth.

So, to answer your question.....no, there are not only 144,000 who “have to be top performers” to get on whatever list you think there is....

The Bible states this number twice....
Revelation 7:1-4...
“After this I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding tight the four winds of the earth, so that no wind could blow on the earth or on the sea or on any tree. 2 And I saw another angel ascending from the sunrise, having a seal of the living God; and he called with a loud voice to the four angels to whom it was granted to harm the earth and the sea, 3 saying: “Do not harm the earth or the sea or the trees, until after we have sealed the slaves of our God in their foreheads.”

4 And I heard the number of those who were sealed, 144,000, sealed out of every tribe of the sons of Israel”.
This is not fleshly Israel but “the Israel of God” made up of both Jewish and Gentile Christians. (Galatians 6:16)

Revelation 14:1-5 tells us where these 144,000 are situated....
“Then I saw, and look! the Lamb standing on Mount Zion, and with him 144,000 who have his name and the name of his Father written on their foreheads. . . . .And they are singing what seems to be a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders, and no one was able to master that song except the 144,000, who have been bought from the earth. . . . .
These were bought from among mankind as firstfruits to God and to the Lamb, 5 and no deceit was found in their mouths; they are without blemish.”

So having mentioned those who were “sealed”, or anointed by God as numbering 144,000 who were “bought from among mankind as firstfruits to God and to the Lamb”, Christ’s disciples understood what “firstfruits meant, these are gathered first, followed later by the secondary fruits. It was an agricultural society, so Jesus used familiar terms.

Seen standing on Mount Zion, where the Temple of Jehovah is situated, is no earthly location since the literal Temple was destroyed almost 2,000 years ago and has never been rebuilt. This is “New Jerusalem” or “heavenly Jerusalem”, (Hebrews 12:22; Revelation 21:2)....nothing to do with modern day Jews or the nation of fleshly Israel.

This is a heavenly scene....the Lamb we know is Jesus Christ, who said he was going to “prepare a place” in his Father’s house for his bride. So the bride of Christ is the 144,000, selected by God for a role in the heavenly kingdom.

Also see by John was another group (Revelation 7:9-10; 13-14)....this time too numerous to count, and these were attributing their salvation to God and to the Lamb, but are not seen in heaven....these, John said have “come out of the great tribulation” as survivors on earth, to become the subjects of the elect....who will rule with Christ as “kings and priests” for the thousand year reign of God’s kingdom. (Revelation 20:6)

As to them being “top performers”.....I have no idea what you think that means....?
Since God chooses the elect, it is up to Him to decide whether these rank as “top performers” or not......what “performance” do you assume they need? Becoming part of God’s elect has nothing to do with us volunteering......God chooses them according to his own criteria, but of course these must be like the apostles, who stuck with Jesus during his trials and proved faithful till their death.

 

[Mr E]

The problem was, the misinformation was conveyed before it was corroborated by you....

Shouldn’t you get your facts straight before you tell things that are just based on hear-say? That is actually gossip. Do you care if it is slander? Would you like lies told about you? Shouldn’t you actually ask for the other side of the story first? I was raised in Christendom, so I know what they teach. I chose to become a JW in my twenties. I have been on both sides and after a thorough study of the Bible, I know who tells the truth.

So, to answer your question.....no, there are not only 144,000 who “have to be top performers” to get on whatever list you think there is....

The Bible states this number twice....
Revelation 7:1-4...
“After this I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding tight the four winds of the earth, so that no wind could blow on the earth or on the sea or on any tree. 2 And I saw another angel ascending from the sunrise, having a seal of the living God; and he called with a loud voice to the four angels to whom it was granted to harm the earth and the sea, 3 saying: “Do not harm the earth or the sea or the trees, until after we have sealed the slaves of our God in their foreheads.”

4 And I heard the number of those who were sealed, 144,000, sealed out of every tribe of the sons of Israel”.
This is not fleshly Israel but “the Israel of God” made up of both Jewish and Gentile Christians. (Galatians 6:16)

Revelation 14:1-5 tells us where these 144,000 are situated....
“Then I saw, and look! the Lamb standing on Mount Zion, and with him 144,000 who have his name and the name of his Father written on their foreheads. . . . .And they are singing what seems to be a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders, and no one was able to master that song except the 144,000, who have been bought from the earth. . . . .
These were bought from among mankind as firstfruits to God and to the Lamb, 5 and no deceit was found in their mouths; they are without blemish.”

So having mentioned those who were “sealed”, or anointed by God as numbering 144,000 who were “bought from among mankind as firstfruits to God and to the Lamb”, Christ’s disciples understood what “firstfruits meant, these are gathered first, followed later by the secondary fruits. It was an agricultural society, so Jesus used familiar terms.

Seen standing on Mount Zion, where the Temple of Jehovah is situated, is no earthly location since the literal Temple was destroyed almost 2,000 years ago and has never been rebuilt. This is “New Jerusalem” or “heavenly Jerusalem”, (Hebrews 12:22; Revelation 21:2)....nothing to do with modern day Jews or the nation of fleshly Israel.

This is a heavenly scene....the Lamb we know is Jesus Christ, who said he was going to “prepare a place” in his Father’s house for his bride. So the bride of Christ is the 144,000, selected by God for a role in the heavenly kingdom.

Also see by John was another group (Revelation 7:9-10; 13-14)....this time too numerous to count, and these were attributing their salvation to God and to the Lamb, but are not seen in heaven....these, John said have “come out of the great tribulation” as survivors on earth, to become the subjects of the elect....who will rule with Christ as “kings and priests” for the thousand year reign of God’s kingdom. (Revelation 20:6)

As to them being “top performers”.....I have no idea what you think that means....?
Since God chooses the elect, it is up to Him to decide whether these rank as “top performers” or not......what “performance” do you assume they need? Becoming part of God’s elect has nothing to do with us volunteering......God chooses them according to his own criteria, but of course these must be like the apostles, who stuck with Jesus during his trials and proved faithful till their death.

Sorry friend, I'm not going to let you do that.

It's been official JW doctrine for how long? So let's be honest.

Watchtower doctrine has been that until 1935, all "true Christians" were part of the heavenly class, which means that over a period of 1902 years only 144,000 people can be considered to have worshipped God acceptably.

"As spirit-anointed brothers of Christ, all the early Christians had the prospect of being heavenly priests with Christ." Jehovah's Witnesses - Proclaimers of God's Kingdom p.35

"And Christians back there in the first century needed it. At that time all of them were spirit-anointed Christians who looked forward to a future resurrection "into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ." "Let Your Kingdom Come" p.88

"For some 19 centuries after this there was only one calling, the heavenly one. It was an undeserved kindness that God bestowed on a limited number in furtherance of his own wise and loving purposes." United in Worship of the only True God p.111

"Selecting these future corulers over mankind would take time. Why? For one thing, that opportunity had to be extended to people of all nations. And, while many professed to lay hold of it, few truly proved to be faithful followers of God's Son. (Matthew 22:14) High standards had to be met." True Peace and Security - How Can You Find It? p.65

"We understand that this heavenly calling continued down through the centuries, though during the so-called Dark Ages, there may have been times when the number of anointed ones were very few. With the reestablishment of true Christianity near the end of the last century, more were called and chosen. But it seems that in the mid-1930's, the full number of the 144,000 was basically completed. Thus there began to appear a group of loyal Christians with the earthly hope. Jesus termed such "other sheep," who unite in worship with the anointed as one approved flock." Watchtower 1996 Aug 15 p.31


If only there was an official website or something that clearly stated their doctrine. Oh wait....

https://www.jw.org/en/bible-teachings/questions/go-to-heaven/

 

[Aunty Jane]

No. It is a true experience with JW my SIL had.

Sounds completely wrong as this is NOT what we do.....nor are we encouraged to do that.

He has no reason to lie to me. In fact, the pain on his face was palpable when he told the story. He did not want to elaborate on what happened; a common trait among abuse victims who feel shame for being victimized.

He told me how the troubles began. Being a good little JW, he missed his HS graduation to get married the 1st time.

Not sure about this either....? Why would he miss his HS graduation to get married?

Neither he nor his wife were ready to get married, financially or emotionally, but they felt it was ‘the right thing’ 3 kids later his wife abandoned him and the kids.

I can’t recall all the details after that but he tried to live ‘a normal life’ but failed to meet the JW standard.

This sounds completely weird to me.....what standard did he fail to meet?

I’m sorry for what happened to him but it doesn’t ring true for me.....something is very wrong with this story.

Yes. Judges and juries do it all the time.

Yes...after hearing all the evidence...not just one side of a story...right?

I will ask him why he didn’t just formally withdraw from JW as you outlined. I do apologize if I did not paraphrase you accurately. I’ll keep you posted on his response.

I would be interested to hear what he has to say actually.

Fortunately, this is not a criminal trial.

For us there is a trial of sorts, though nothing as drastic as a courtroom......but if someone in the congregation has committed serious sin, it will not be tolerated for scriptural reasons I have already outlined.
The elders in the congregation are responsible before God for keeping the congregation clean, both morally and spiritually, so it is their duty to take sinners to task and to ascertain if serious wrongdoing has taken place, how it happened, and how the offender feels about committing the offence.

It is done in a spirit of mildness and with loving counsel, because if someone has erred seriously and is repentant, then the counsel given will be with a view to healing that person spiritually and assuring them of God’s forgiveness through Christ’s sacrifice.....but if there is an attitude where others are blamed, or the offence is denied or minimised, then the issues will be taken further and discipline administered if it is deemed necessary. God has authorised the elders to judge within the congregation, whilst God judges those outside. (1 Corinthians 5:9-12)

Beyond that, my SIL’s testimony is direct eye witness corroborated by literally half his family.

Which half...the ones who support him, or the ones who no longer treat him like a brother, because he isn’t?

I’m sorry but there is so much wrong with this story......perhaps things are getting lost in translation or in transmission? As I said, half truths are often worse than outright lies....

 

[Aunty Jane]

Sorry friend, I'm not going to let you do that.

It's been official JW doctrine for how long? So let's be honest.

Watchtower doctrine has been that until 1935, all "true Christians" were part of the heavenly class, which means that over a period of 1902 years only 144,000 people can be considered to have worshipped God acceptably.

"As spirit-anointed brothers of Christ, all the early Christians had the prospect of being heavenly priests with Christ." Jehovah's Witnesses - Proclaimers of God's Kingdom p.35

"And Christians back there in the first century needed it. At that time all of them were spirit-anointed Christians who looked forward to a future resurrection "into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ." "Let Your Kingdom Come" p.88

"For some 19 centuries after this there was only one calling, the heavenly one. It was an undeserved kindness that God bestowed on a limited number in furtherance of his own wise and loving purposes." United in Worship of the only True God p.111

"Selecting these future corulers over mankind would take time. Why? For one thing, that opportunity had to be extended to people of all nations. And, while many professed to lay hold of it, few truly proved to be faithful followers of God's Son. (Matthew 22:14) High standards had to be met." True Peace and Security - How Can You Find It? p.65

"We understand that this heavenly calling continued down through the centuries, though during the so-called Dark Ages, there may have been times when the number of anointed ones were very few. With the reestablishment of true Christianity near the end of the last century, more were called and chosen. But it seems that in the mid-1930's, the full number of the 144,000 was basically completed. Thus there began to appear a group of loyal Christians with the earthly hope. Jesus termed such "other sheep," who unite in worship with the anointed as one approved flock." Watchtower 1996 Aug 15 p.31

I think I know where this little cut and paste came from.....
But basically nothing written there that I disagreed with. It is explained quite well I think in the article you linked to below.

Most of those who were Christ’s followers from the first century onward were of ”the heavenly calling” (Hebrews 3:1) This anointing was for those who would rule with Christ in his Kingdom. These were chosen first, because they would be resurrected first. (Revelation 20:6; 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17)

According to Jesus’ parable of the wheat and the weeds, satan was to sow counterfeit Christianity in the same field as he had sown the wheat. The weeds took the Christian Faith off track to a great degree.....in fact, so far off track that Christ would no longer recognise the church as his own.
This meant that true Christians would be “few” among the “many” who were not following the true teachings of Christ, but substituting a bogus form, the likes of which Jesus never taught. History attests to this.

When Christ returns to judge the world, his words to those who adhered to this fake Christianity will be...”I never knew you”. NEVER means “not ever”....and he calls them “workers of lawlessness”.....so whose laws are they breaking? (Matthew 7 21-23)

The 144,000 began to be chosen in the first century, starting with the apostles, and later, with the addition of Gentiles coming to Christ after Israel had rejected him as Messiah, and had him executed......but after the death of the apostles, Christianity went off the rails, not producing true Christians, but counterfeit ones in great quantity....and very corrupt.

It was not until the time when Christ was due to return that the wheat, who were barely surviving, would begin to be separated from the weeds. Jesus was to appoint a “faithful and wise slave” who would “feed” his fellow slaves their “food at the proper time”. (Matthew 24:45) This is the only channel for genuine Christian teachings and unless we find that slave and feed at his table, we will not have the correct spiritual nourishment to overcome the power of the weeds that are still in the world as part of the devil’s empire of false religion...identified in Revelation as “Babylon the great”. (Revelation 18:4-5)

If only there was an official website or something that clearly stated their doctrine. Oh wait....

https://www.jw.org/en/bible-teachings/questions/go-to-heaven/

Thank you for at least going to the source, but apparently you are not really reading what it says.....or what I said....144,000 are chosen by God to rule with Christ in heaven....so, who will be their subjects?...and for whom will they act as priests?
Kings do not rule one another, and there are no sinners who need priests in heaven....

There are two separate groups of people who will be saved through the end of the present world system.....those who are anointed with “the heavenly calling” and those who will be their subjects on earth.....read Revelation 21:2-4. God did not design humans to live in heaven.....he designed them to live forever on earth.

 

[Mr E]

I think I know where this little cut and paste came from.....
But basically nothing written there that I disagreed with. It is explained quite well I think in the article you linked to below.

Most of those who were Christ’s followers from the first century onward were of ”the heavenly calling” (Hebrews 3:1) This anointing was for those who would rule with Christ in his Kingdom. These were chosen first, because they would be resurrected first. (Revelation 20:6; 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17)

According to Jesus’ parable of the wheat and the weeds, satan was to sow counterfeit Christianity in the same field as he had sown the wheat. The weeds took the Christian Faith off track to a great degree.....in fact, so far off track that Christ would no longer recognise the church as his own.
This meant that true Christians would be “few” among the “many” who were not following the true teachings of Christ, but substituting a bogus form, the likes of which Jesus never taught. History attests to this.

When Christ returns to judge the world, his words to those who adhered to this fake Christianity will be...”I never knew you”. NEVER means “not ever”....and he calls them “workers of lawlessness”.....so whose laws are they breaking? (Matthew 7 21-23)

The 144,000 began to be chosen in the first century, starting with the apostles, and later, with the addition of Gentiles coming to Christ after Israel had rejected him as Messiah, and had him executed......but after the death of the apostles, Christianity went off the rails, not producing true Christians, but counterfeit ones in great quantity....and very corrupt.

It was not until the time when Christ was due to return that the wheat, who were barely surviving, would begin to be separated from the weeds. Jesus was to appoint a “faithful and wise slave” who would “feed” his fellow slaves their “food at the proper time”. (Matthew 24:45) This is the only channel for genuine Christian teachings and unless we find that slave and feed at his table, we will not have the correct spiritual nourishment to overcome the power of the weeds that are still in the world as part of the devil’s empire of false religion...identified in Revelation as “Babylon the great”. (Revelation 18:4-5)


Thank you for at least going to the source, but apparently you are not really reading what it says.....or what I said....144,000 are chosen by God to rule with Christ in heaven....so, who will be their subjects?...and for whom will they act as priests?
Kings do not rule one another, and there are no sinners who need priests in heaven....

There are two separate groups of people who will be saved through the end of the present world system.....those who are anointed with “the heavenly calling” and those who will be their subjects on earth.....read Revelation 21:2-4. God did not design humans to live in heaven.....he designed them to live forever on earth.

So my source, and my information was accurate. Maybe you can now dispense with the accusations of "misinformation, gossip, slander and lie."

Charles Taze Russell taught that the full number of 144000 who would make it to heaven had been reached back in 1881.


"Remember, too, that the Scriptures proved to us in various ways-by the Jubilee Cycles, the 1335 days of Daniel, the Parallel Dispensations, etc.-that the "harvest" or end of this age was due to begin in October, 1874, and that the Great Reaper was then due to be present; that seven years later-in October, 1881-the "high calling" ceased, though some will be admitted to the same favors afterward, without a general call being made, to fill the places of some of the called ones who, on being tested, will be found unworthy." Thy Kingdom Come p.362"And the three and a half years following the Spring of A.D. 1878, which ended October, A.D. 1881, correspond to the three and a half years of continued favor to individual Jews in the last half of their seventieth week of favor. As in the type that date-three and a half years after the death of Christ-marked the end of all special favor to the Jew and the beginning of favor to the Gentiles, so we recognize A.D. 1881 as marking the close of the special favor to Gentiles-the close of the "high calling," or invitation to the blessings peculiar to this age-to become joint-heirs with Christ and partakers of the divine nature." The Time Is At Hand 1916 ed. p.235

I'm happy to cite my source-- which I reference because they so carefully cite the original sources-- JW doctrines directly. Watchtower doctrine regarding the 144,000 being a literal number