What does Colossians 1:16 mean when it says "For by him were all things created..."
- Thread starter Peterlag
- Start date
-
Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.
You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
- Status
Wrangler
Well-Known Member
Wrangler
Well-Known Member
I don’t have animosity toward JW’s. Half of his family are active members, including his parents and one set of grandparents.
The difference between us is that you are trying to defend the JW and I am not. You seem eager to find some mitigating fact that may be found ‘on the other side’ of the conflict.
I believe he and his other family members are genuinely traumatized by their JW experience. This trauma is true no matter how ‘right’ the JW Elders might be per their doctrine.
Friend, by their fruit you shall know them. Hence, the Apostasy movie.
Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
From the outside looking in through a dirty widow, it might appear to be so, but look back at the scriptures and see the laws and principles that God gave to Israel.....there was a strict code of conduct and an emphasis on being morally, physically and spiritually clean before their God. He did not tolerate breaches, and made sure that his people could regain a clean standing with him if they erred, by the sacrifices they offered. But capital crimes, merited capital punishment....no ifs or buts.
When Christ came, he represented the same God and used the same scriptures that were given to his ancient people. Why would we imagine that God somehow slackened off in his requirements for human behavior? What is “grace” after all? Some see it as a licence to sin with impunity, as if Jesus and his Father are somehow “all forgiving”.....
The standards outlined in the scriptures by Jehovah are set in concrete, so it’s up to us to live up to them. If we want to do otherwise, we cannot expect a different outcome than what his ancient people received. The penalty may not be immediate, but it is inevitable.
Being “cut off from his people” in Israel meant death, and the penalty was immediately implemented. Today we live in a world where that is not practiced in most countries. They have overcrowded prisons instead, in some countries inmates can exist for many years on death row.....yet Israel had no jails....they had something much better. Which meant that re-offenders hardly existed.
Living outside of God’s grace is not a good place to be.....once you know him and once you accept his truth, you cannot forget him or ‘unlearn’ what you once believed. The penalty for breaking God’s laws however, will be served when the judge of all of us makes his appearance. He is at present separating the “sheep from the goats” in a preliminary way, but then he will do so definitively. There will be no second chances....no opportunity to plead ignorance.
Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
All I am trying to do is to help you and any other readers here to understand is that all stories have two sides, so it’s not a good idea to run with one side of a story and make yourself judge and jury because of one very important scriptural reality.... “as you judge, so will you be judged”.
If you would not like someone to judge you on biased hear say, don’t do it to others.
The Golden Rule...remember?
And if the “trauma” was brought on by their own behavior, then are we to feel sorry for them?
They knew the rules before they decided to become JW’s, and these are all scriptural principles by which we, as a global brotherhood, live. Should there be exceptions for those who decide that the rules are too difficult for them? Is God too strict? Should we broaden the cramped road for those ones?
This is why people become “ex JW’s”.....no one will accommodate their “special” circumstances. When we study the Bible, we find that no one is “special” when it comes to disobedience. There is never an excuse that we can offer to God for stubbornly refusing to take scriptural counsel, as if it somehow doesn’t apply to them....or shouldn’t.
Do you have any idea of the “fruits” produced by my brotherhood? If you did, then a ‘movie’ would not be the thing upon which you judge us.
From my own experience with all kinds of problems...from natural disasters to family and personal problems, there is no other organisation on earth that can compare to how Jehovah’s Witnesses care for their own. But if you want someone to bend God’s rules for you.....don’t come to us.
God will extend mercy....and his justice can be tempered if circumstance warrant it, but he will not change his standards to suit us....his law is administered without sentiment....Like King David, who was guilty of gross sins......but because of David’s heartfelt repentance, he was forgiven and God spared his life, yet he was not spared from the calamity that came from within his own family and associates.
We will all “reap what we have sown”. There is no way to avoid that.
Can we talk about what you call a mere man? How does God's son who He has made both Lord and Christ become a mere man? How does this Lord and Christ who God glorified, justified, sanctified, anointed, and ordained become a mere man? The one God made to be our mediator, advocator, and intercessor? The one God highly exalted?
Wrangler
Well-Known Member
We are not talking about appearance AJ! Sending numerous intimidation squads reveals the fruit in question, lacking grace.
There you go again, pretending this is a criminal trial.
1st, the trauma was brought on by intimidation squads, on top of all manner of coercive tactics.
2nd, I believe feeling sorry for victims and sinners is the proper, grace-filled, Spirit led Christian application of charity. You?
I certainly do know what the fruits are of your brotherhood. Hence, the movie reference.
On the positive note, JW's were uniquely singled out by Hitler among Christian denominations. Accepting the notion of judging by one's enemies, it puts JW's in an outstanding category.
It's a little funny that you admit only positive statements for one side of the trial, bringing into question what kind of judge and juror you are?
Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
Wrangler....I understand your own need to defend your family member, but repeating this nonsense about “numerous intimidation squads” is slanderous when we have no such thing....nor did you see or hear what went on.
If we have no need or desire to “intimidate” anyone, why on earth would numerous “squads” be sent to coerce someone who is clearly wanting to separate from us? Just as baptism is an important step in a Christian’s life, so a “divorce” from the brotherhood whose teaching were once accepted as the right ones, needs another important step to officially exit the arrangement. Becoming "inactive" does not mean disfellowshipped.
Baptism is undertaken with a vow.....and as we know, to make a vow to God and fail to fulfill it, is serious, not just to the appointed elders, but to God himself. (Ecclesiastes 5:4-6) It’s not a matter of just walking out the door if one has committed serious wrongdoing and pretending it doesn't matter.
It is the job of the elders to ascertain what happened and if they can help.
Bad conduct may bring reproach on God’s name and the brotherhood by the conduct of its members. If you remember, “taking God’s name in vain” (bringing reproach on his name by wrong conduct) was part of the Ten Commandments. It’s not a small thing. Being in our brotherhood, like being a member of the nation of Israel brings with it responsibilities....our congregation members know what that responsibility is, and we take it seriously.
Ecclesiastes 5:4-6...
“Whenever you make a vow to God, do not delay to pay it, for he finds no pleasure in the stupid ones. What you vow, pay. 5 Better for you not to vow than to vow and not pay. 6 Do not allow your mouth to cause you to sin, and do not say before the angel that it was a mistake. Why make the true God indignant over what you say so that he has to destroy the work of your hands?”
Does this sound like God will just wave his hand and excuse us if we slap him in the face and tell him we don't want his rules? The vow was taken seriously, just as in a marriage, it is a firm commitment....and the breaking of that vow is just as serious.
Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
If God’s law was broken, then committing a disfellowshipping offense is tantamount to something just as serious, especially where slander is involved. Do you think God turns a blind eye when his laws are broken?
Again with this wild accusation....did you see them?...did you hear what they told him? How many were in this "squad"? Good grief!
You are assuming that what has been told to you by your family members is true, but perhaps what you were told was selective and designed to paint my brothers in a bad light in order to justify themselves? Do you know all the details? It is obvious that you don’t. And I doubt whether you will ever be told the whole truth. God knows and that is all that matters in the end.
2nd...feeling sorry for "victims" is of course the right thing to do, but are we talking about genuine “victims” here or only those presenting themselves as “victims” to solicit support and sympathy? Do you really know?
I know my brotherhood and what you describe from your SIL and family member’s account of things, is nothing like the brotherhood of which I have been an active member for just on 50 years. Its simply NOT what we do. Intimidation has nothing to do with being an Christian.....when did Christ ever intimidate anyone? He presented his truth and those who heard with their hearts and not just their ears responded. But those who heard and came to Christ did not always stay...like the "soil" that Jesus said the seeds are planted in. (Matthew 13:3-9) Not all soil is good soil.
And as Peter said...
"Certainly if after escaping from the defilements of the world by an accurate knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they get involved again with these very things and are overcome, their final state has become worse for them than the first. 21 It would have been better for them not to have accurately known the path of righteousness than after knowing it to turn away from the holy commandment they had received. 22 What the true proverb says has happened to them: “The dog has returned to its own vomit, and the sow that was bathed to rolling in the mire.”
I have heard the “sob stories” and in my personal experience with some of them, the other side is very telling. I have had three close family members disfellowshipped over the years, and two of them came back because they were miserable and came to understand the gravity of what they had done, and what it had cost them......like the prodigal son, they realized where they were most happy.....certainly not out in the world with its fake friends and dependence on material things and good looks to feel worthy of anyone’s attention.
The only one who did not return was my own SIL who moved in with another woman and spends most of his life drinking and trying to make her happy....but he is miserable most of the time. His children want nothing to do with him....and he has no one to blame but himself. We become either the recipients of our own choices....or the victim.
And that indicates to me that you haven’t got a clue.....but then, that is your choice.
Your opinions are formed without all the facts.
Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
We have brothers in prisons in many parts of the world just because they will not participate in the military, or politics....or because they do not have freedom of religion in their country.
Our brothers in Russia are also undergoing vile persecution right now, and have been sent to prison for being members of an “extremist” group. We are the lease extreme people I know when it comes to our worship. They have confiscated all our properties and raided our Kingdom Halls, arresting brothers for no reason. They banned our Bible as “extremist literature”.....and there is only one entity in Russia responsible for the slander and persecution of my brothers....that is the Russian Orthodox church, which has no compunction in going to war with their fellow Catholics in Ukraine.
Its a vile world and I am pleased to say that I don't think it can go on much longer.....the end can be any time because Jesus said it will be at a time we are not expecting it.....so who knows. Theses are definitely "the last days". (2 Timothy 3:1-5; Matthew 23:43-44)
I am no one's judge and jury, but the elders are appointed to do that when things go wrong in the congregation. (1 Corinthians 5:9-13) They have been told both sides first hand....and render their judgment accordingly.......no coercion necessary......what about you?It's a little funny that you admit only positive statements for one side of the trial, bringing into question what kind of judge and juror you are?
Ronald David Bruno
Well-Known Member
Every person who ever lived was a mere man (or woman) except Christ. He was the God/man. He had a body soul & Spirit. His spirit, (non-physical part of Him is God. God became flesh and dwelt among us. But You wrestle and distort that concept. You can't grasp it. Jesus was very aware of this, that men would wrestle with and not grasp this concept, equality with God.
“. . . who, though he was in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied himself by taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men." Phil. 2:6-8
"I And the Father are One". You can't grasp that one either, which says the same thing. Just likely can't that Jesus is the Creator as it clearly states in Col. 1:16, 17. "Jesus is the Light of men."
He is tue source of illumination, wisdom and knowledge. You can't that either.
He ia the truth. Truth means reality. All reality consists ( is held together by Him Col. 1:17). You can't grasp that one either.
"He is the Life". Spiritual life and physical life - consists in Him. Do you know what life is?
Apparently you don't grasp that concept either.
"I am the Alpha and Omega". You would attribute that verse to the Father and verse in Revelation is describing Jesus.
You don't really grasp who Jesus is.,you just understand partially what He did. But He could not have done most of it without being God.
I get thrown out of churches often. Walked off the property in the last Church just a few months ago because I went to the bathroom. Intimidated I believe is what we are talking about. When groups form and have a leadership structure is when like in any government you will see rules and intimidation if not followed. Christianity is walking by the spirit. Yet these groups (all of them) try to immortalize themselves and attain the righteousness of God by participating in sacraments such as to pray, praise, and give thanks. They try with hymns, chorales, chants, or the instrumental music. They try with buildings for worship, the art, the architecture, the kneeling, dipping, dunking, chanting, counting, lighting, confessing our sins or moral and political behavior.
Many try to earn God’s righteousness by being a good person, a good member of their church, a good father or mother, or a good child. Some try by being a good worker, a good student, a wonderful husband or wife, and a good neighbor. Some try by singing more hymns, by running to the altar, by confessing their sins, and by being a law-abiding citizen. Others try by water baptism, the Old Testament Law, the rosary, fasting, giving to their church, and giving to the poor. These are all nice and wonderful dynamic moral commitments that, at best, are only the commandments of people.
Jesus once told the religious leaders of his time they were teaching for the truth of God’s Word, “the commandments of men.” It appears we continue to do the same in our day and time. People can never win the right to stand before God’s righteousness through their own traditions and ordinances, which at best, are only the consequences of the commandments of people. And intimidated when you don't walk in your flesh like the list above suggest.
This is for those who say Jesus had to be God because a mere man could not do the job...
How does God's son who He has made both Lord and Christ become a mere man? How does this Lord and Christ who God glorified, justified, sanctified, anointed, and ordained become a mere man? The one God made to be our mediator, advocator, and intercessor? The one God highly exalted?
How does God's son who He has made both Lord and Christ become a mere man? How does this Lord and Christ who God glorified, justified, sanctified, anointed, and ordained become a mere man? The one God made to be our mediator, advocator, and intercessor? The one God highly exalted?
Something and / or someone caused them to think differently. What and / or who was it?
Ronald David Bruno
Well-Known Member
Jesus emptied himself of what? No verse says he emptied himself of being the Almighty God. Paul was talking about our being humble just as Jesus was. Jesus never thought about grasping (a better translation would be snatching or robbing) equality with God. He emptied himself of being the preeminent spirit Son of God and came to earth as a man. What an act of humility.
Where in these 3 verses does it say Jesus emptied himself because I don't see the word empty.
6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
Wrangler
Well-Known Member
Even if they pull out a bad translation it still does not help them. If Jesus emptied himself, it means he became a container. And most people know the container and the contents are not one in essence.
Now Wrangler I have to say this because I believe it to be the truth. Your statement above is brilliant.
- Status
Similar threads
