When did Daniel 7:13-14 happen?

[Brakelite]

I did not include all the details as for now at this juncture, prophesy is history written in advance. Its all very interesting how it all played out, but we need to concentrate on where we are NOW in the stream of time, and see that we are indeed living in the time of the feet of Nebuchadnezzar's dream image.

Trying to figure out the last act in the drama is of no help when you have the characters in the play all confused.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Trying to figure out the last act in the drama is of no help when you have the characters in the play all confused.

If "the end" is to take place in the days of those final kings, and these are the times we are living in at present, all we need to do is identify them using Bible and secular history. We know for sure that Rome is the legs of iron and what follows is the feet of iron and clay.....we don't need to muddy the waters with guesswork about how these final "kings" got to be where they are......what followed Rome was the World Powers of our day, which we know are the offshoot of Britain....the Anglo-American alliance.

The "king of the North and the King of the South" have been "pushing" and shoving one another all through these last days but more is to come.

The final campaign of the king of the north is not directed against the king of the south. Therefore, the king of the north does not come to his end at the hands of his great rival. Similarly, the king of the south is not destroyed by the king of the north. The king of the south is destroyed, “without [human] hand,” by God’s Kingdom. (Daniel 8:25) In fact, at the battle of Armageddon, all earthly kings are to be removed by God’s Kingdom, and this evidently is what happens to the king of the north. (Daniel 2:44)

Daniel 11:44-45 describes events leading up to that final battle. No wonder “there will be no helper” when the king of the north meets his end! It is all playing out exactly as God's word foretold.

 

[Waiting on him]

Revelation 1:5-6 KJV
[5] And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, [6] And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

Actually the kingship and priesthood of the elect had to wait till they were resurrected to heaven.
As Revelation 20:6 says...
"Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and will reign with Him for a thousand years."

It doesn't say that they were already 'kings and priests' whilst in their flesh, but that they "will be" given those positions when they reign with Christ for the thousand years it will take to undo all the damage done to the human race, as well as the earth itself that has been polluted by their bloodshed, greed and selfishness.

it says has made, and this is addressed to first century churches. I understand this flies in the face of the theology you follow where the elite of your religious peers, the 144k will be kings and priest,,,,, but that doesn’t make the scripture any less true.

 

[Waiting on him]

Did you guys know that Israel had kings?

 

[Aunty Jane]

Revelation 1:5-6 KJV
[5] And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, [6] And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

Revelation is about the future....a long time into the future when Jesus resurrects his elect to rule with him in his Kingdom. The churches he is addressing are also in the future.....so these messages to the seven congregations have an even wider application. At Revelation 1:10, John says: “By inspiration I came to be in the Lord’s day.” This verse is an important key to unlocking the understanding of Revelation. It indicates that it applies primarily to “the Lord’s day,” which was then yet future....when he begins his rulership.

So I guess it depends on what translation you use as to whether you are getting an accurate meaning to the text. The KJV is last on my list of translations to use in Bible study. No one I know speaks in archaic English any more, so I have no idea why people cling to it like it was written by God himself.

Revelation 1:5-6...NASB...
" and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn of the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth. To Him who loves us and released us from our sins by His blood— 6 and He made us into a kingdom, priests to His God and Father—to Him be the glory and the dominion forever and ever. Amen.
This fits with Revelation 20:6....their office of 'priests and kings' is after they are resurrected to heaven....when Jesus promised to come again, and take them to be where he was.

it says has made, and this is addressed to first century churches. I understand this flies in the face of the theology you follow where the elite of your religious peers, the 144k will be kings and priest,,,,, but that doesn’t make the scripture any less true.

Elite? What elite? We have none who are in any way elite in their positions of service. The 144,000 are chosen from among mankind on the earth as "firstfruits" in the service of their God. (Revelation 14:1-5) Those who have positions of service on the earth do not view those with a heavenly calling as superior, only that they serve God in a different capacity in a different location. We have no head honchos.....only different capacities of service. No one is paid to do God's work.

Did you guys know that Israel had kings?

Are you serious? We study the Bible like no one else. We have no church rituals to follow or meaningless repetition to substitute for our worship. We are all students of God's word and we because of that, we know what we believe, and why we believe it, and how it fits into the overall narrative of the whole of scripture.

Did you know that Israel's Kings could not be priests and vice versa.....? Yet Jesus and his elect are both.....why?

 

[Waiting on him]

Are you serious? We study the Bible like no one else.

I would be in agreement with, indoctrinated like no one else

Did you know that Israel's Kings could not be priests and vice versa.....? Yet Jesus and his elect are both.....why?

Only Levites could be priests.

Revelation is about the future....a long time into the future when Jesus resurrects his elect to rule with him in his Kingdom. The churches he is addressing are also in the future

According to what you have been told to believe, yes all of it is in your future.

Elite? What elite? We have none who are in any way elite in their positions of service.

apparently Australia JWs do not believe the same as American JWs.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

At Revelation 1:10, John says: “By inspiration I came to be in the Lord’s day.”

I get we all have different perspectives. It is crazy and to be honest, a little disturbing how we all see it so differently. So this is only an opinion or yet another different perspective. How did you get “by inspiration I came to be in the Lord’s day.” For me that totally changes its meaning for instance it would be like saying “born of inspiration” instead of born of the Spirit.” Or “walk not after the flesh but after inspiration” instead of “walk not after the flesh but after the Spirit”.

This verse is an important key to unlocking the understanding of Revelation

Because then you said having the correct translation as being “inspiration” is key to unlocking its meaning …but isn’t the key to unlocking the understanding of Revelation? The Spirit of God?

 

[Aunty Jane]

I would be in agreement with, indoctrinated like no one else

And is there some valid reason for this conclusion? How do you know that what you have been taught is not indoctrination?

Only Levites could be priests.

You didn't answer my question.....why are Jesus and his elect both 'kings and priests' if the elect were all "Israelites"?

According to what you have been told to believe, yes all of it is in your future.

And could I not say the same about you and what you have been led to believe?

apparently Australia JWs do not believe the same as American JWs.

I just love it when people make statements about people they know nothing about....
All of Jehovah's Witnesses believe the same things because we are all taught by a central governing body, like the first Christians were.

Our website JW.ORG is the most translated one in the world because our brotherhood is global.

At least get your facts straight....

 

[Waiting on him]

I just love it when people make statements about people they know nothing about....
All of Jehovah's Witnesses believe the same things because we are all taught by a central governing body, like the first Christians were.

Our website JW.ORG is the most translated one in the world because our brotherhood is global.

I have a friend that is JW and we’ve spoken of this in-depth.

 

[Aunty Jane]

I get we all have different perspectives. It is crazy and to be honest, a little disturbing how we all see it so differently. So this is only an opinion or yet another different perspective. How did you get “by inspiration I came to be in the Lord’s day.” For me that totally changes its meaning for instance it would be like saying “born of inspiration” instead of born of the Spirit.” Or “walk not after the flesh but after inspiration” instead of “walk not after the flesh but after the Spirit”.

To me it means the same thing in this verse.....here it is from the NET...

"I was in the Spirit a]">[a] on the Lord’s Day when I heard behind me a loud voice like a trumpet".
So the first footnote there [a] says...

"Or “in the spirit.” “Spirit” could refer either to the Holy Spirit or the human spirit, but in either case John was in “a state of spiritual exaltation best described as a trance” (R. H. Mounce, Revelation [NICNT], 75).

So in reality it was a God-inspired vision. Saying that "by inspiration I came to be in the Lord's day" is not altering the meaning of the text.

Because then you said having the correct translation as being “inspiration” is key to unlocking its meaning …but isn’t the key to unlocking the understanding of Revelation? The Spirit of God?

In some cases, correct translation conveys the meaning rather than the actual word. Nowhere is that demonstrated more clearly than in the KJV where expressions incorrectly translated had people believing the wrong thing for decades. e.g. "suffer the little children to come unto me" was thought to mean literal suffering would bring children to Jesus. But its meaning was nothing of the sort.
The word "suffer" simply meant to "allow" the children to come to Jesus. There are many more....

I defend the translation I gave you because it conveyed the correct meaning.

 

[Waiting on him]

And is there some valid reason for this conclusion? How do you know that what you have been taught is not indoctrination?

I don’t have anyone to tell me what I believe.

You didn't answer my question.....why are Jesus and his elect both 'kings and priests' if the elect were all "Israelites"?

Look it’s very obvious that no one can converse with you on anything that you do not already have all the answers, so what’s the point?

 

[Aunty Jane]

I have a friend that is JW and we’ve spoken of this in-depth.

LOL...so you know one JW, and you can tell from your conversation with this one person that we have a form of hierarchy?

I can tell you now that we have positions of service, not power. Our brotherhood is conducted after the model of the first Christians....with a central governing body and overseers or elders who are given responsibilities to care for the congregation members in different capacities. We are told in Hebrews 3:17...
"Be obedient to those who are taking the lead among you and be submissive, for they are keeping watch over you as those who will render an account, so that they may do this with joy and not with sighing, for this would be damaging to you."

So just as our brothers in positions of oversight have responsibilities in their leadership, so do we as congregation members. If we want a peaceful and cohesive brotherhood, we respect the structure and its order. Just as Israel was structured and orderly, so would Christ's followers be the same way. It works well.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

"Or “in the spirit.” “Spirit” could refer either to the Holy Spirit or the human spirit, but in either case John was in “a state of spiritual exaltation best described as a trance” (R. H. Mounce, Revelation [NICNT], 75).

So in reality it was a God-inspired vision. Saying that "by inspiration I came to be in the Lord's day" is not altering the meaning of the text.

The distinguishing of whether “in human spirit” or “In the Holy Spirit” for me is clarified in what is before it Revelation 4:1 “after these things I looked, and behold, a door standing open (Christ’s arms open wide) In Heaven, and the first voice which I had heard, like [the sound] of a trumpet speaking with me said “come up here”

get the debate of “yet future” but Revelation 11:12 And they heard a loud voice from Heaven saying to them “come up here”. Then they went up into Heaven in the cloud and their enemies beheld them.

with the parable in Luke of when called take the lower seat so when he who called you comes, he may say “friend, come up higher”. For whoever is lowered will be lifted up, and whoever is lifted up will be lowered? What did John hear before “in the Spirit” …”come up here”? …or at least that is my opinion. That John was called; lifted up “in the Holy Spirit” as promised in “humble yourself and Christ will Lift you up.”

 

[Aunty Jane]

I don’t have anyone to tell me what I believe.

Well, I guess that's your problem right there. The first Christians did have someone to tell them what to believe. And if there are true Christians around today, they too can tell you what to believe.....do you think that God would deliberately hide his truth from people?

Look it’s very obvious that no one can converse with you on anything that you do not already have all the answers, so what’s the point?

Shocking isn't it? A Christian who actually knows what they believe and why......shouldn't that apply to all Christians if they are genuine followers of Jesus Christ? What is the point of calling yourself a Christian if you don't know the 'why' of half of what you purport to believe? Is it not all laid out in God's word? But is it only the word itself that teaches us......that is not what Jesus said....

"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day. . . . .So Jesus added, “Because of this I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has allowed him to come."

It involves an invitation from the Father, without which not much of the scriptures make a whole lot of cohesive sense. People have snatches of the truth, but don't know how to put all the pieces of the puzzle where they should go.

This is a place where all the different viewpoints come together and where people get to choose what to believe....what resonates with them. We show God by our response to the truth if we are candidates to become citizens of his Kingdom....or not.
Its a matter of whether our minds and hearts are open, or if they are stuck somewhere and cannot budge?
Where do you think you are?

 

[VictoryinJesus]

So in reality it was a God-inspired vision

a God-inspired vision
Love Habakkuk 2:1-4 What “vision” do you think was being mentioned way back there? What Revelation?

I will stand on my guard post
And station myself on the rampart;
And I will keep watch to see what He will speak to me; and how I may reply when reproved. John 16:8

Then the LORD answered me and said
record the vision (the Revelation of Jesus Christ?) and inscribe [it] on tablets (planks).

That the one who reads it(the Revelation of Jesus Christ) may run. Revelation 1:3, Hebrews 6:20

For the vision (the Revelation of Jesus Christ) is yet for the appointed time; it (the Revelation of Jesus Christ) hastens (to breathe, blow) toward the goal.
Philippians 3:14, Galatians 1:11-12

and it (the Revelation of Jesus Christ) will not fail. (Be a liar)

Though it (The Revelation of Jesus Christ) tarries, John 21:22
Wait, for it ( the Revelation of Jesus Christ) will certainly come,
It (The Revelation of Jesus Christ) will not delay. Hebrews 10:37-38

Behold, as for the proud one,
His soul is not right within him,
But the righteous will live by Faith. Hebrews 10:37-38

 

[Waiting on him]

@Marty fox will you alert me when someone decides to give an answer to the op?

 

[Waiting on him]

An honest answer.

 

[Aunty Jane]

The distinguishing of whether “in human spirit” or “In the Holy Spirit” for me is clarified in what is before it Revelation 4:1 “after these things I looked, and behold, a door standing open (Christ’s arms open wide) In Heaven, and the first voice which I had heard, like [the sound] of a trumpet speaking with me said “come up here”

Again we have to consider that John was transported into the future and saw things that must have bewildered him.
In Revelation 4 he saw an open door but nowhere does it say that this is Christ with open arms. Then a voice that sounded like a trumpet told him to "come up here". It was a vision don't forget, not a literal experience, so the symbolisms are not always obvious, but we are not at liberty to interpret those things for ourselves.
John saw a vision of God on his throne attended to by his Seraphs whose appearance must have startled him.
As one of God's elect, John was being shown a glimpse of what awaited him in heaven.

get the debate of “yet future” but Revelation 11:12 And they heard a loud voice from Heaven saying to them “come up here”. Then they went up into Heaven in the cloud and their enemies beheld them.

The symbolisms are not to be taken literally....you need a study in Revelation to comprehend its complexities. It is a deep study, not something you can discuss in a few paragraphs.

with the parable in Luke of when called take the lower seat so when he who called you comes, he may say “friend, come up higher”. For whoever is lowered will be lifted up, and whoever is lifted up will be lowered? What did John hear before “in the Spirit” …”come up here”? …or at least that is my opinion. That John was called; lifted up “in the Holy Spirit” as promised in “humble yourself and Christ will Lift you up.”

I think you are connecting scriptures that have no connection....the parables were teaching tools for the people that Jesus addressed, not connected to the Revelation at all.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

Again we have to consider that John was transported into the future and saw things that must have bewildered him.
In Revelation 4 he saw an open door but nowhere does it say that this is Christ with open arms. Then a voice that sounded like a trumpet told him to "come up here". It was a vision don't forget, not a literal experience, so the symbolisms are not always obvious, but we are not at liberty to interpret those things for ourselves.
John saw a vision of God on his throne attended to by his Seraphs whose appearance must have startled him.
As one of God's elect, John was being shown a glimpse of what awaited him in heaven.

“I am the door”??

The symbolisms are not to be taken literally....you need a study in Revelation to comprehend its complexities. It is a deep study, not something you can discuss in a few paragraphs.

I think you are connecting scriptures that have no connection....the parables were teaching tools for the people that Jesus addressed, not connected to the Revelation at all.

figured that is what you would say. Same ol’ thing as yesterday and the day before that, just happens to be a different person today. I’m starting to think we are all insane. Going to bed…goodnight.

 

[Aunty Jane]

a God-inspired vision
Love Habakkuk 2:1-4 What “vision” do you think was being mentioned way back there? What Revelation?

I will stand on my guard post
And station myself on the rampart;
And I will keep watch to see what He will speak to me; and how I may reply when reproved. John 16:8

Then the LORD answered me and said
record the vision (the Revelation of Jesus Christ?) and inscribe [it] on tablets (planks).

That the one who reads it(the Revelation of Jesus Christ) may run. Revelation 1:3, Hebrews 6:20

For the vision (the Revelation of Jesus Christ) is yet for the appointed time; it (the Revelation of Jesus Christ) hastens (to breathe, blow) toward the goal.
Philippians 3:14, Galatians 1:11-12

and it (the Revelation of Jesus Christ) will not fail. (Be a liar)

Though it (The Revelation of Jesus Christ) tarries, John 21:22
Wait, for it ( the Revelation of Jesus Christ) will certainly come,
It (The Revelation of Jesus Christ) will not delay. Hebrews 10:37-38

Behold, as for the proud one,
His soul is not right within him,
But the righteous will live by Faith. Hebrews 10:37-38

This is the "Great Day of God the Almighty"....spoken about by many of the prophets....the final judgment "when all the nations will know that He is Jehovah". (Ezekiel 36:23)

The apostle Paul found it beneficial to quote Habakkuk when he warned the Jews of his day not to be faithless: “See to it that what is said in the Prophets does not come upon you, ‘Behold it, you scorners, and wonder at it, and vanish away, because I am working a work in your days, a work that you will by no means believe even if anyone relates it to you in detail.’” (Acts 13:40, 41; Hab. 1:5, LXX) The faithless Jews would not heed Paul, even as they had not believed Jesus’ warning of Jerusalem’s destruction; they suffered the consequences for their faithlessness when Rome’s armies devastated Jerusalem in 70 C.E.—Luke 19:41-44.

I like the way it warns us about a seeming delay in its coming....not from God's perspective but from ours, causing some to lose hope.

You might find this link interesting...
https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1200001133