When Did Jesus Say He Would Return?

[popeye]

For the record, The Rapture and The Second Coming are two, totally distinct and separate events.

The Rapture takes place at "THE APPEARING OF CHRIST on clouds with great power and glory". And every eye will see him.

The Second Coming takes place at Armageddon, whereby Christ and his saints come riding on white horses and physically set down on earth ( in the valley of megiddo ) .

 

[Foreigner]

Popeye, just looking for clarification.

While those that believe in the Rapture believe they will be taken to be with Christ in the air, there is nothing I am aware of that indicates that when that happens, the entire world will see Christ in the air.

When He comes back at the end of the Tribulation He will fill the sky and the world will of course see Him (and what He does).

But again, I have seen no indication that he will be seen by the world in the sky during the pre-tribulation Rapture.

 

[envolve]

For the record, The Rapture and The Second Coming are two, totally distinct and separate events.

The Rapture takes place at "THE APPEARING OF CHRIST on clouds with great power and glory". And every eye will see him.

The Second Coming takes place at Armageddon, whereby Christ and his saints come riding on white horses and physically set down on earth ( in the valley of megiddo ) .

Amen.

Even more accurately we can say the Rapture is first "before the throne" (Rev. 7.9) in 3rd heaven before the Trumpets of the Trib commence (8.7ff) according to readiness (3.10), not all Christians. And then He will meet the saints in the air at the start of the last trumpet (1 Cor. 15.23, 1 Thess. 4.14-18, Rev. 11.15, 15.2-4).

Parousia extends from first rapture to His His appearing.

And technically the Day of the Lord is from first rapture to Jesus stepping down to the end of the 1000 year reign.

It is all one long Day of the Lord as a day to the Lord is a 1000 years to us.

I have seen no indication that he will be seen by the world in the sky during the pre-tribulation Rapture.

Amen.

 

[envolve]

Jesus will be seen in the air and step down when He returns with His 10,000 overcomers (Jude 14,15; Rev. 19.11-16, 20.4-6) not when He meets the overcomers at the first rapture "before the throne" (Rev. 7.9) in 3rd heaven, before the trumpets of the Tribulation commence (8.7ff); nor at the start of the 7th trumpet general rapture and resurrection (1 Cor. 15.23, 1 Thess. 4.14-18, Rev. 11.15, 15.2-4).

 

[revturmoil]

The manufacturing process of pre-tribulationism is so extensive that I'm quite impressed that anyone would allow themselves to be so misled as to accept it.

The devil has his hands all over it. It's a perverted, blasphemous, and evil teaching. Anyone who can't see it's fabrications, blunders, and contradictions has issues.

These people rather remain loyal to a false teaching and disregard the truth in God's word.

I have found over the years of studying the bible that the correct interpretation is usually the simplest and most logical one. Pretribulationism is the most fabricated mess of a doctrine that I have ever seen.
Simply stated. If a word study is done on the word elect, it refutes pretribulationism. It's that simple. But will pretribulationist repent of distorting the word of God? One verse from Jesus debunks pretribulationism.

Any doctrine that has several contradictions and complications is alway's untrue. The evangelical experts have taken what is a timely and stretegic act of kindness and turned it into a terror attack. They have made God look unprecise, indiscriminate, and sloppy. They have taken something simple and pristine and perverted it all to the disgrace of God. They have taken the scriptures far out of context and have added a false hope of sensationalism. It's the most widely held false doctrine of the church age.

It takes only a few verses to explain the rapture.

The words of Jesus...

"And immediately after the tribulation of those days...he will send his angels with a great trumpet, and they will gather his elect out of the four winds from the extremities of the skies unto their extremities"(Matthew 24:29-31).

In 1 Thes. the parousia, harpazo, and Day of the Lord are mentioned in one passage. But misled pre-tribbers would like you to believe that the 'harpazo' is a seperate event than the parousia. 1 Thes 4 created a contradiction for them. So they changed the meaning and timing of the Day of the Lord. They can't deny that in 1 Thes. 4 the two happen at the same time, so they changed the Day of the Lord as beginning at the pre-trib rapture rather than at the end of it. They did the same with the marriage supper of the Lamb.

1 Thessalonians 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

1 Thessalonians 5:1 ¶But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

 

[envolve]

The manufacturing process of pre-tribulationism is so extensive that I'm quite impressed that anyone would allow themselves to be so misled as to accept it.

The devil has his hands all over it. It's a perverted, blasphemous, and evil teaching. Anyone who can't see it's fabrications, blunders, and contradictions has issues.

These people rather remain loyal to a false teaching and disregard the truth in God's word.


I have found over the years of studying the bible that the correct interpretation is usually the simplest and most logical one. Pretribulationism is the most fabricated mess of a doctrine that I have ever seen.
Simply stated. If a word study is done on the word elect, it refutes pretribulationism. It's that simple. But will pretribulationist repent of distorting the word of God? One verse from Jesus debunks pretribulationism.

Any doctrine that has several contradictions and complications is alway's untrue. The evangelical experts have taken what is a timely and stretegic act of kindness and turned it into a terror attack. They have made God look unprecise, indiscriminate, and sloppy. They have taken something simple and pristine and perverted it all to the disgrace of God. They have taken the scriptures far out of context and have added a false hope of sensationalism. It's the most widely held false doctrine of the church age.




It takes only a few verses to explain the rapture.

The words of Jesus...

"And immediately after the tribulation of those days...he will send his angels with a great trumpet, and they will gather his elect out of the four winds from the extremities of the skies unto their extremities"(Matthew 24:29-31).




1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

1 Thessalonians 5:1 ¶But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

It is so easy to disprove postrib onlyism or any historicist view since we see in Rev. 7.9 the sains "before the throne in 3rd heaven which is according to readiness (3.10) before the trumpets of the Tribulation commence (8.7ff). How simple this is.

The word elect should not be assumed to be Christians for it depends on the context. If it is talking about Israel as the chosen nation to be the center of all nations that's one kind of elect. The other is regeneration of believers. Matt. 24.4--31 with all its Jewish references thus is pertaing to Israel and Matt. 24.32-25.30 with its moral implications is talking to just the Church. Matt. 25.31-46 is dealing with the nations. God always has in view 3 groups: Israel as a nation, the Church and the gentile nations.

There are advanced parties and harbingers in every sphere. We should think no differently when it comes to the time of receiving the saints either to the throne or to the air. Since Matt. 24.40-42, Luke 21.36, Rev. 3.10 are conditional statements to be included in the first rapture we should take them as such. There is no way around this.

Who can say a person who is a Christian lying on a bed of fornication deserves to be raptured beforehand? As Michael the archangel and the angels will be fighting Satan out of 2nd heaven to cast him down to earth, those believers who are first rapture are part of God's armies and may be included in this battle or at least witnessing it from above during the Tribulation because they are overcomers. They were worthy to escape the hour of trial for keeping the word of His patience.

We should be concerned for our Christian brothers and sisters who have excluded themselves from the first rapture because they were not watchful and prayerful. Let us pray when a couple million vanish at the first rapture Sept. 14, 2015 that they don't accuse the brethren day and night. Those who believe in partial yet did not get received at the first rapture will know full well why they were not included because they were not yet read, but during the Tribulation there is still time to overcometh even unto martyrdom.

It is most precious the word in 1 Thess. 4.14-18 in which we are told those who are "alive" and "left" will be caught up together with those who are asleep at the last trumpet. Why this unecessary repetition? for obviously those who are alive are left. It's because some had been raptured alive beforehand.

By reading Matthew 24.42 together with 1 Thessalonians 5.2, 4, it is evident that there are at least two raptures: for note that the first passage suggests rapture before the Tribulation because one must be watchful since he does not know when his Lord will come; while the second passage suggests rapture after the Tribulation because one knows when the day of the Lord shall come.

While it is true pretrib rapture onlyism has many mistaken assumptions, posttrib rapture onlyism has its own set of errors also.

A. Were the entire body of believers to be raptured after the Tribulation, there would again be no need for us to watch and wait and be prepared. Knowing that the Lord would not come before the end of the three and a half year's period, we could live evilly up to three years five months and twenty-nine days. Yet such a concept violates the very principle of the Scriptures.

B. Were all of us believers to be raptured after the Great Tribulation, then our waiting would not be a waiting for Christ but for the Antichrist, since the latter must come first.

C. The church would lose her hope - “Looking for the blessed hope and appearing of the glory of the great God and our Savior Jesus Christ” (Titus 2.13) - for included in this hope is the blessing of escaping the Tribulation.

D. The second school of interpretation does not accept the idea of a secret rapture; yet its followers forget the word, “Behold, I come as a thief” (Rev. 16.15). A thief comes secretly, is never preceded by a band, and always steals the best.

E. This second school views the twelve disciples as being purely Christians in direct contrast with the view of the first school which considers these twelve as being merely Jews. As a matter of fact, however, these twelve disciples are Christians as well as representatives of the Jewish remnant. For example, in Matthew 10.5-6 and 23.3 we see that all have a Jewish background, a fact which is thus inapplicable to Christians.

F. There is a failure in this second school to distinguish between rapture and the appearing of the Lord. There is a difference between Christ coming for the saints and Christ coming with the saints. That which Enoch prophesied, as recorded in Jude, points to the coming of the Lord, "with his holy myriads” (see Jude 14-15 mg.) when His feet step down on the Mount of Olives. So does the prophecy which is given in Revelation: “Behold, he cometh with the clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they that pierced him; and all the tribes of the earth shall mourn over him. Even so, Amen” (1.7). In taking the historical view, the second school of interpretation regards that part of Revelation up to chapter 17 as having already been fulfilled, with only the part from chapter 17 onward waiting to be fulfilled. (This is exactly opposite to the futuristic view taken by the first school of interpretation which deems only chapters 1-3 as having already been fulfilled, with the rest remaining to be so). If the book of Revelation only records primarily things of the past, then how can the average child of God ever understand it? It would require doctors of philosophy and learned historians to comprehend it! Furthermore, it would no longer be revelation either!

 

[revturmoil]

We know from other scriptures that the rapture will occur at a loud trumpet of God. In (I Thess. 4:16; I Cor. 15:23; Rev. 10:7), (I Thess. 4:16; I Cor. 15:23; Rev. 10:7),

AND IT ALSO DOES IN MATHEW 24.

Mathew 24:31 　And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet

It entails angels gathering Christians (Matt. 13:30, 39; Rev. 19:14),

And angels are also mentioned as doing the gathering in Mathew 24.

Mathew 24:31 　And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect

The gathering will take place in the sky (I Thess. 4:17),

It also does in Mathew 24.

Mathew 24;31 from one end of heaven to the other.

God's elect anywhere else in the New Testament always indicates believers in Jesus, but the pre-tribulationists would lead you to believe that Mathew 24:31 is anything but the rapture of the Church. Why?

Because in this instance, the text clearly shows the event to be "after" the tribulation."

The event is after the tribulation and the word 'elect' means Christians.

I don't care how hard Envolve tries to make the word elect mean Jews, it can't be done!

Eklektos...

) picked out, chosen

a) chosen by God,

1) to obtain salvation through Christ

a) Christians are called "chosen or elect" of God

2) the Messiah is called "elect", as appointed by God to the most exalted office conceivable

3) choice, select, i.e. the best of its kind or class, excellence preeminent: applied to certain individual Christians

http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G1588&t=KJV
) picked out, chosen

a) chosen by God,

1) to obtain salvation through Christ

a) Christians are called "chosen or elect" of God

2) the Messiah is called "elect", as appointed by God to the most exalted office conceivable

3) choice, select, i.e. the best of its kind or class, excellence preeminent: applied to certain individual Christians

 

[revturmoil]

It is so easy to disprove postrib onlyism or any historicist view since we see in Rev. 7.9 the sains "before the throne in 3rd heaven which is according to readiness (3.10) before the trumpets of the Tribulation commence (8.7ff). How simple this is.

The word elect should not be assumed to be Christians for it depends on the context. If it is talking about Israel as the chosen nation to be the center of all nations that's one kind of elect. The other is regeneration of believers. Matt. 24.4--31 with all its Jewish references thus is pertaing to Israel and Matt. 24.32-25.30 with its moral implications is talking to just the Church. Matt. 25.31-46 is dealing with the nations. God always has in view 3 groups: Israel as a nation, the Church and the gentile nations.

There are advanced parties and harbingers in every sphere. We should think no differently when it comes to the time of receiving the saints either to the throne or to the air. Since Matt. 24.40-42, Luke 21.36, Rev. 3.10 are conditional statements to be included in the first rapture we should take them as such. There is no way around this.

Who can say a person who is a Christian lying on a bed of fornication deserves to be raptured beforehand? As Michael the archangel and the angels will be fighting Satan out of 2nd heaven to cast him down to earth, those believers who are first rapture are part of God's armies and may be included in this battle or at least witnessing it from above during the Tribulation because they are overcomers. They were worthy to escape the hour of trial for keeping the word of His patience.

We should be concerned for our Christian brothers and sisters who have excluded themselves from the first rapture because they were not watchful and prayerful. Let us pray when a couple million vanish at the first rapture Sept. 14, 2015 that they don't accuse the brethren day and night. Those who believe in partial yet did not get received at the first rapture will know full well why they were not included because they were not yet read, but during the Tribulation there is still time to overcometh even unto martyrdom.

It is most precious the word in 1 Thess. 4.14-18 in which we are told those who are "alive" and "left" will be caught up together with those who are asleep at the last trumpet. Why this unecessary repetition? for obviously those who are alive are left. It's because some had been raptured alive beforehand.

By reading Matthew 24.42 together with 1 Thessalonians 5.2, 4, it is evident that there are at least two raptures: for note that the first passage suggests rapture before the Tribulation because one must be watchful since he does not know when his Lord will come; while the second passage suggests rapture after the Tribulation because one knows when the day of the Lord shall come.

While it is true pretrib rapture onlyism has many mistaken assumptions, posttrib rapture onlyism has its own set of errors also.

A. Were the entire body of believers to be raptured after the Tribulation, there would again be no need for us to watch and wait and be prepared. Knowing that the Lord would not come before the end of the three and a half year's period, we could live evilly up to three years five months and twenty-nine days. Yet such a concept violates the very principle of the Scriptures.

B. Were all of us believers to be raptured after the Great Tribulation, then our waiting would not be a waiting for Christ but for the Antichrist, since the latter must come first.

C. The church would lose her hope - “Looking for the blessed hope and appearing of the glory of the great God and our Savior Jesus Christ” (Titus 2.13) - for included in this hope is the blessing of escaping the Tribulation.

D. The second school of interpretation does not accept the idea of a secret rapture; yet its followers forget the word, “Behold, I come as a thief” (Rev. 16.15). A thief comes secretly, is never preceded by a band, and always steals the best.

E. This second school views the twelve disciples as being purely Christians in direct contrast with the view of the first school which considers these twelve as being merely Jews. As a matter of fact, however, these twelve disciples are Christians as well as representatives of the Jewish remnant. For example, in Matthew 10.5-6 and 23.3 we see that all have a Jewish background, a fact which is thus inapplicable to Christians.

F. There is a failure in this second school to distinguish between rapture and the appearing of the Lord. There is a difference between Christ coming for the saints and Christ coming with the saints. That which Enoch prophesied, as recorded in Jude, points to the coming of the Lord, "with his holy myriads” (see Jude 14-15 mg.) when His feet step down on the Mount of Olives. So does the prophecy which is given in Revelation: “Behold, he cometh with the clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they that pierced him; and all the tribes of the earth shall mourn over him. Even so, Amen” (1.7). In taking the historical view, the second school of interpretation regards that part of Revelation up to chapter 17 as having already been fulfilled, with only the part from chapter 17 onward waiting to be fulfilled. (This is exactly opposite to the futuristic view taken by the first school of interpretation which deems only chapters 1-3 as having already been fulfilled, with the rest remaining to be so). If the book of Revelation only records primarily things of the past, then how can the average child of God ever understand it? It would require doctors of philosophy and learned historians to comprehend it! Furthermore, it would no longer be revelation either!

The saints before the throne are the ones who rose with Christ at His resurrection and they are the ones who return with HIM!. They are not "pre-tribulational" saints. That's another pre-tribulational fabrication!

The word elect should not be assumed to be Christians for it depends on the context

The word 'eklektos' means Christians in all of the following verses.

• Matthew 20:16
• John 13:18, 15:16
• Acts 15:22, 15:25
• Romans 8:33, 16:13
• 1 Corinthians 1:27-28
• Ephesians 1:4
• Colossians 3:12
• James 2:5
• 2 Timothy 2:10
• Titus 1:1
• 1 Peter 1:2, 2:9, 5:13
• Revelation 17:14

And you're trying to tell me that the word 'eklektos' means Jews in Mathew 24:31?

You need a lesson in Hermeneutics 101 and how to do a word study! You also need to get out of denial!

There's nothing in this context to indicate that Mathew 24 is only for Jews. If that were true, Mathew would have used this word to indicate JEWS!
1445. Hebraios heb-rah'-yos from 1443; a Hebræan (i.e. Hebrew) or Jew:--Hebrew.

"But you [Christians] are an elect people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation [i.e. Israel]..." (1 Peter 2:9).

Jesus tells us in Mathew 24:9 that we will be hated by all nations because of "HIS NAME!"
That means he is talking about 'Christians'.

"Then they will deliver you to affliction and will kill you, and you will be hated by all nations on account of My name" (24:9).

You can only go on in denial of the truth about the word elect for so long, then it becomes evident that you lack common sense!

So show me enlightened one where context changes the meaning of a word!​

​

 

[envolve]

We know from other scriptures that the rapture will occur at a loud trumpet of God. In (I Thess. 4:16; I Cor. 15:23; Rev. 10:7), (I Thess. 4:16; I Cor. 15:23; Rev. 10:7),

AND IT ALSO DOES IN MATHEW 24.

Mathew 24:31 　And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet

It entails angels gathering Christians (Matt. 13:30, 39; Rev. 19:14),

And angels are also mentioned as doing the gathering in Mathew 24.

Mathew 24:31 　And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect

The gathering will take place in the sky (I Thess. 4:17),

It also does in Mathew 24.

Mathew 24;31 from one end of heaven to the other.

God's elect anywhere else in the New Testament always indicates believers in Jesus, but the pre-tribulationists would lead you to believe that Mathew 24:31 is anything but the rapture of the Church. Why?

Because in this instance, the text clearly shows the event to be "after" the tribulation."

The event is after the tribulation and the word 'elect' means Christians.

I don't care how hard Envolve tries to make the word elect mean Jews, it can't be done!

Eklektos...

) picked out, chosen

a) chosen by God,

1) to obtain salvation through Christ

a) Christians are called "chosen or elect" of God

2) the Messiah is called "elect", as appointed by God to the most exalted office conceivable

3) choice, select, i.e. the best of its kind or class, excellence preeminent: applied to certain individual Christians

http://www.bluelette...ngs=G1588&t=KJV
) picked out, chosen

a) chosen by God,

1) to obtain salvation through Christ

a) Christians are called "chosen or elect" of God

2) the Messiah is called "elect", as appointed by God to the most exalted office conceivable

3) choice, select, i.e. the best of its kind or class, excellence preeminent: applied to certain individual Christians

The 7th trumpet is a loud trumpet. It is the trumpet at the end of the Tribulation in which 7 bowls of wrath are poured out.

Matt. 24.31 the great sound of a trumpet is indeed the 7th trumpet. In this 7th trumpet the general rapture and resurrection takes place at the start of it. At the end of it is gathering. Jews in Mattt. 24.31. and overcomers in 2thess. 2.1. Two groups of elect.

After parousia is the gathering in Matt. 13.30.

The Jews are called the elect in the NT as it pertains to them as a nation, Israel to be the center of all nations. Matt. 24.4-31 is all about the Jews. Matt. 24.32-25.30 is the Church.

The Jews are gathered after Armageddon to Israel to be the center of all nations.

Jesus reigns on earth from the 3rd Templle in Israel, and He reigns with His overcomer believers as Christians.

Two kinds of elect: election of Israel to be the center of all nations; election of Christians unto eternal life.

God always treats 3 groups: Israel (Matt. 24.4-31), Christians (Matt. 24.32-25.30, gentile nations (Matt. 25.31-46).

The saints before the throne are the ones who rose with Christ at His resurrection and they are the ones who return with HIM!. They are not "pre-tribulational" saints. That's another pre-tribulational fabrication!



The word 'eklektos' means Christians in all of the following verses.

• Matthew 20:16
• John 13:18, 15:16
• Acts 15:22, 15:25
• Romans 8:33, 16:13
• 1 Corinthians 1:27-28
• Ephesians 1:4
• Colossians 3:12
• James 2:5
• 2 Timothy 2:10
• Titus 1:1
• 1 Peter 1:2, 2:9, 5:13
• Revelation 17:14

And you're trying to tell me that the word 'eklektos' means Jews in Mathew 24:31?

You need a lesson in Hermeneutics 101 and how to do a word study! You also need to get out of denial!

There's nothing in this context to indicate that Mathew 24 is only for Jews. If that were true, Mathew would have used this word to indicate JEWS!
1445. Hebraios heb-rah'-yos from 1443; a Hebræan (i.e. Hebrew) or Jew:--Hebrew.

"But you [Christians] are an elect people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation [i.e. Israel]..." (1 Peter 2:9).

Jesus tells us in Mathew 24:9 that we will be hated by all nations because of "HIS NAME!"
That means he is talking about 'Christians'.

"Then they will deliver you to affliction and will kill you, and you will be hated by all nations on account of My name" (24:9).

You can only go on in denial of the truth about the word elect for so long, then it becomes evident that you lack common sense!

So show me enlightened one where context changes the meaning of a word!​

​

Nobody has risen with Christ yet. Acts 2.34 says not even David a man after God's own heart is in heaven yet. The general resurrection takes place with those who are alive and left and asleep (1 Thess. 4.17) which gives us comfort (v.18).


The condition for being raptured before the Tribulation is keep the word of His patience (Rev. 3.10), prayerful (Luke 21.36), watchful (Matt. 24.40-42) to escape the hour of trial that is to come upon the whole world. Do all Christians do this? No. so the first rapture is according to readiness. Be warned.

The Jews are elect in Matt. 24.31 but not saved, but rather as a remnant of the nation of Israel to preserve the nation of Israel.

Jews is not the right term, because the focus is on them being elect, that is to say, of the class of the 144,000 in Rev. 7.1-8 which are Jews who are sealed and protected and make up a remnant so Israel remains.

Christians are a holy nation, not referring to Israel.

Both Jews and Christians are afflicated. The world centers of Israel and the Jews will flee in Rev. 12 for 42 months. When Antichrist realizes he is unable to get at the overcomers because they are first raptured (Rev. 12.5) he goes after the Jews and then a remnant flee for 42 months (144,000 at least).

 

[revturmoil]

The context of any passage of scripture in the bible doesn't change or determine the meaning of any words. The opposite is true.



The definition of the words in the passage helps us determine the context of the passage!

The 7th trumpet is a loud trumpet. It is the trumpet at the end of the
Tribulation in which 7 bowls of wrath are poured out.

Matt. 24.31 the great sound
of a trumpet is indeed the 7th trumpet. In this 7th trumpet the general rapture
and resurrection takes place at the start of it. At the end of it is gathering.
Jews in Mattt. 24.31. and overcomers in 2thess. 2.1. Two groups of
elect.

After parousia is the gathering in Matt.
13.30.

The Jews are called the elect in the NT as it pertains
to them as a nation, Israel to be the center of all nations. Matt.
24.4-31 is all about the Jews. Matt. 24.32-25.30 is the Church.

The Jews are
gathered after Armageddon to Israel to be the center of all
nations.

Jesus reigns on earth from the 3rd Templle in Israel, and He
reigns with His overcomer believers as Christians.

Two kinds of elect:
election of Israel to be the center of all nations; election of Christians unto
eternal life.

God always treats 3 groups: Israel (Matt.
24.4-31), Christians (Matt. 24.32-25.30, gentile nations (Matt.
25.31-46).

So you use a parable to support a pre-tribulational return of Christ for a rapture only? Get the context right and you won't have to fabricate anything!


Go back to school!


Mathew 13:30 isn't in contradiction with 1Thes 1:4. You are in contradiction with the Word of God and fabricate things to support a false teaching.

 

[envolve]

The context of any passage of scripture in the bible doesn't change or determine the meaning of any words. The opposite is true.



The definition of the words in the passage helps us determine the context of the passage!





So you use a parable to support a pre-tribulational return of Christ for a rapture only? Get the context right and you won't have to fabricate anything!


Go back to school!


Mathew 13:30 isn't in contradiction with 1Thes 1:4. You are in contradiction with the Word of God and fabricate things to support a false teaching.

What parable is that? All I said was Matt. 13.30 was the gathering in agreement with 1 Thess. 4.14-18.

What does 1 Thess. 1.4 have to do with what we are talking about?

You didn't address any of the verses I gave about the rapture before the Tribulation (Matt. 24.40-42, Luke 21.36, Rev. 7.9) and that are according to readiness. Why shut your mind down?

You would have to explain the verses so they make more sense than I explained them. Unless and until you do the burden remains on you.

 

[envolve]

3 words are key:


1) watchful (Matt. 24.40-24)

2) prayerful (Luke 21.36)

3) patience (Rev. 3.10)


Can we honestly say all Christians fulfill these 3 conditions?

If a Christian does not fulfill these conditions they will not escape hour of trial that is to come upon the whole world by being first raptured (Rev. 7.9) to stand before the Son of Man before the trumpets of the Tribulation commence (8.7ff).

Think of it as an IF/THEN statement. God gives you the choice. The choice to reject it automatically excludes you from it and from returning to reign with Christ for 1000 years ON EARTH (Jude 14,15; Rev. 2.26, 20.4-6). Matt. 19.28 is the regeneration of the world.

It really is as simple as that!

 

[Charlie]

If a Christian does not fulfill these conditions they will not escape hour of trial that is to come upon the whole world by being first raptured (Rev. 7.9) to stand before the Son of Man before the trumpets of the Tribulation commence (8.7ff).

Charlie -- Correction, if I may; before the first seal is opened.

Think of it as an IF/THEN statement. God gives you the choice. The choice to reject it automatically excludes you from it and from returning to reign with Christ for 1000 years ON EARTH (Jude 14,15; Rev. 2.26, 20.4-6). Matt. 19.28 is the regeneration of the world.

To reign over all the nations of the world, during the 1,000 years, from heaven, under the leadership of the Lamb, Jesus Christ.

Incorruptible bodies will make it possible, for those who are to be resurrected/raptured, to move between heaven and earth during the 1,000 years.

David will be raised up to be King of Israel during that time, in Jerusalem, Jeremiah 30:9.

God Bless you. Charlie.

 

[veteran]

To escape the "hour of temptation" is about not being tempted during the great tribulation. It is not about physical escape of the tribulation. Ain't no one alive going anywhere until after the great tribulation like Jesus and His Apostles declared.

 

[popeye]

Ain't no one alive going anywhere until after the great tribulation.

HEAR ! HEAR!...and AMEN!

 

[revturmoil]

What does 1 Thess. 1.4 have to do with what we are talking about?

'Chosen' is the same word as 'elect' which proves that 'eklektos' is always talking about 'Christians.' Not Jews! But you don't care! You're going to go on believing they're Jews regardles of this and regardless that Jesus say's the gathering occurs "after the tribulation." That contradiction required pre-tribulationist to fabricate "another gathering" only for Jews! Mt. 24 is clear that the gathering occurs after the tribulation.

I did address the verses you quoted. You're not listening.

How do you come up with the idea that Mt. 24:30 implies it's before the tribulation? The verses previous to verse 40 imply this occurs at the end when Christ returns and not 7 years before. How was it in the days of Noe? The floods came and the end came quick! Not 7 years later. The verse also implies at the time of "the consumation." When things are fulfilled!

Matthew 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled. There is no indication that this passage speaks of a time 'before' the tribulation'. It actually implies just the opposite..."after the tribulation when all things are fulfilled."

Matthew 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.
36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.


Matthew 24:40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

Luke 21:36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

Revelation 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

I have already told you about the elders around the throne. They are very likely the Old Testament patriarchs/saints. They are not raptured New Testament saints. There's no way you can prove that any of these verses are pre-tribulational.
I have also already answered your question about verse 40. It isn't talking about the rapture. The rapture in mentioned in verse Matthew 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds...

Verse 40 is an event that occurs after the rapture and at the end of the tribulation. The very first thing that happens at the second coming is the rapture. Then the battle begins and then judgements come. In Verse 40 the ones who are taken are destroyed, the ones that are left populate the Millennium. This is the judgement of nations. The elect that's gathered in verse 31 is removed for safety sake. These are the ones who prayed that they be "accounted worthy to escape all these things." They were spared the viles of the tribulation and raptured, removed and protected from Armageddon friendly fire. They are also exempt from the judgement of the sheep and goats.

 

[revturmoil]

I said,

In Verse 40 the ones who are taken are destroyed, the ones that are left
populate the Millennium.

In the rapture v.31, christians are removed. In the battle the followers of the beast are destroyed.

In the separation of the sheep and goats v.40, a remnant is left and the others removed.

Just as it was in the days of Noah???

The ones who lived and survived in the days of Noah were the ones who were left like in verse 40.

Matthew 24:40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

The ones who were taken died in the flood, the ones who survived were the ones left behind.

Verse 40 isn't the same event as verse 31.

 

[BibleScribe]

The challenge presented here is are you able to overturn this evidence for when Jesus said He would return?
...

It seems there are a myriad of hypotheses for something quite simple, -- and Scripturally based.


So if we're looking for something "Jesus" said, the first question is a point of conjecture, because Jesus directly cited Daniel. And where Daniel directly cites the Psalms, we know that the Psalms identifies the year of HIS return -- with a confidence greater than the cited 83 trillion to 1. And it ain't 2011, 2013 and 2014/15. And toward this, please allow that one individual wrote a book regarding the year 1988, and he had 88 reason why he was correct. So although statistics are impressive, they ain't Scripture.


BibleScribe

 

[popeye]

And where Daniel directly cites the Psalms, we know that the Psalms identifies the year of HIS return

BibleScribe

Please tell us that date / Psalm.

 

[BibleScribe]

Hi Popeye,

Are you familiar with the book "Hidden Prophecies in the Psalms", by J.R. Church?

It's a simple concept where the Psalms is the 19th Book of the Bible, (i.e., prophetic for the 1900's), and the Chapters are prophetic for the years. Thus if one wanted to perceive the Holocaust they would read Book 19, Chapter 44, (special note verses 11 & 22). And equally obvious event is the international recognition of the nation of Israel in Book 19 Chapter 48.

So far so good?



BibleScribe