When He Returns!

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Enoch111

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These ppl telling you that Christ is somewhere else, or that you are going somewhere else, they are doomed, ok, and see all you have to do is ask for a Quote and be a little bit critical and not self-serving on the interpretation--be the parent instead of the kid iow, stop looking for candy all of the time, and come down off the sugar rush already--and the worms will wiggle right off, see, or if i'm missing something here, then this is the place to bring it out, pls don't spare my feelings!
Since you don't need to have your feelings spared, let me say this: YOU ARE SIMPLY (AND HABITUALLY) SPOUTING NONSENSE!
Similarly, if your belief is that you might attain heaven after you physically die, shouldn't you be able to Quote a soul going to heaven after they died at least a couple times, two different places, for a Witness?
I. ALL THE SAINTS WHO DIED ARE NOW IN HEAVEN
HEBREWS 12

22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven [THE NT SAINTS], and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, [THE OT SAINTS]
24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

II THE FIRST CHRISTIAN MARTYR STEPHEN WENT TO HEAVEN
ACTS 7

55 But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,
56 And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.
57 Then they cried out with a loud voice, and stopped their ears, and ran upon him with one accord,
58 And cast him out of the city, and stoned him: and the witnesses laid down their clothes at a young man's feet, whose name was Saul.
59 And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.

60 And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep.[DIED]
 
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ScottA

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You are correct that Jesus Christ will return and to disagree with all who say otherwise. The problem always lies in the methods of interpretation. Thus it is impossible to come to any agreement.

I am amazed however that this 'spiritualizing' method of interpretation has now led some to deny the Second Coming of Christ. What is next? What will be 'spiritualized' away. Using this method many say satan is not a real being. They say he is just an allegory of evil, given to us to help us understand the fight between good and evil. But, not a real being. And of course we all know what they do with 'Israel'. God was not concerned with a literal Israel. All the believers are 'spiritual Israel'.

Indeed, using this 'spiritualizing' method one could deny most anything in the Bible. I wonder how safe the First Coming of Christ is under this method. God of love surely wouldn't send a man to the cross to die like that. That is just showing us how much God is against us doing bad things. It shows how much God hates evil and so wants us always to do good. It is a good story, but not literal. And it easier to do this when you don't consider the Bible as the Word of God as many here don't.

And,why stop there? How about Jesus Christ Himself? We can 'spiritualize' Him away just as easy. He represents the good and satan represents the evil. But neither really existed. The Hebrews simply developed these allegorical stories to show the on going fight of good and evil in the world and that we must just keep doing good. Keep being good people. (sarcasm, for those who missed it)
While the bible is definitely the word of God, it is wrong to campaign against so called "spiritualizing." "God is spirit", and thus, you "have taken away the key of knowledge" just as the lawyers did whom Jesus condemned.

In fact, it is more biblically correct to say that God is in the process of "spiritualizing" all things, as Christ told us that not only is God spirit, but we "must also be born again of the spirit of God."

As for interpretations, indeed therein lies the problem, for men are prone to lean on their own understanding and to look to the letter rather than the spirit. Is it not enough that Jesus used parables to show that words were not enough for understanding, quoting the prophecy, that He would in fact not speak "without parables?" Thus, it is you who "explain away" the word of truth. And this you do, confirming what is written:

"He who was born according to the flesh then persecuted him who was born according to the Spirit, even so it is now. Nevertheless what does the Scripture say, '“Cast out the bondwoman and her son, for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the free woman.' So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman but of the free."

As for what is "literal", it is God that is the measure of what is literal, and He is spirit. But man is merely created, and his "flesh cannot inherit the kingdom of God."

...You are preaching for the wrong team. :(
 

Stranger

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While the bible is definitely the word of God, it is wrong to campaign against so called "spiritualizing." "God is spirit", and thus, you "have taken away the key of knowledge" just as the lawyers did whom Jesus condemned.

In fact, it is more biblically correct to say that God is in the process of "spiritualizing" all things, as Christ told us that not only is God spirit, but we "must also be born again of the spirit of God."

As for interpretations, indeed therein lies the problem, for men are prone to lean on their own understanding and to look to the letter rather than the spirit. Is it not enough that Jesus used parables to show that words were not enough for understanding, quoting the prophecy, that He would in fact not speak "without parables?" Thus, it is you who "explain away" the word of truth. And this you do, confirming what is written:

"He who was born according to the flesh then persecuted him who was born according to the Spirit, even so it is now. Nevertheless what does the Scripture say, '“Cast out the bondwoman and her son, for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the free woman.' So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman but of the free."

As for what is "literal", it is God that is the measure of what is literal, and He is spirit. But man is merely created, and his "flesh cannot inherit the kingdom of God."

...You are preaching for the wrong team. :(

What a stupid statement. Because God is Spirit, which He is, then I should not talk against the 'spiritualizing' method of interpretation. God being Spirit has nothing to do with you and others 'spiritualizing' method of interpretation. That God is Spirit has nothing to do with interpreting the Bible literally. Asinine .

I didn't name any names but I accept your confession.

Stranger
 

Naomi25

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You are correct that Jesus Christ will return and to disagree with all who say otherwise. The problem always lies in the methods of interpretation. Thus it is impossible to come to any agreement.

I am amazed however that this 'spiritualizing' method of interpretation has now led some to deny the Second Coming of Christ. What is next? What will be 'spiritualized' away. Using this method many say satan is not a real being. They say he is just an allegory of evil, given to us to help us understand the fight between good and evil. But, not a real being. And of course we all know what they do with 'Israel'. God was not concerned with a literal Israel. All the believers are 'spiritual Israel'.

Indeed, using this 'spiritualizing' method one could deny most anything in the Bible. I wonder how safe the First Coming of Christ is under this method. God of love surely wouldn't send a man to the cross to die like that. That is just showing us how much God is against us doing bad things. It shows how much God hates evil and so wants us always to do good. It is a good story, but not literal. And it easier to do this when you don't consider the Bible as the Word of God as many here don't.

And,why stop there? How about Jesus Christ Himself? We can 'spiritualize' Him away just as easy. He represents the good and satan represents the evil. But neither really existed. The Hebrews simply developed these allegorical stories to show the on going fight of good and evil in the world and that we must just keep doing good. Keep being good people. (sarcasm, for those who missed it)

For any who deny the Second Coming consider these verses.

1.) The First Coming. (Heb. 9:26) " ....now once in the end of the ages hath appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself."

2.) Leaving and and taking His place in the Heaven. (Heb. 9:24) "For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands...but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God.

3.) The Second Coming. (Heb. 9:28) So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him, shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

1.) 'hath appeared

2. 'now to appear'

3.) 'shall appear the second time'

(Zechariah 14:4) "And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives...and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof..."

Stranger

This is a very good post, however, I do want to say one thing about "spiritualizing". As you know, I hold to an Amil perspective of End Time events, and we get accused of this extreme spiritulizing often. It's said that by coming at scripture like this we can twist the bible like a wax nose and make it say whatever we want. Which, to be honest, is what we see a lot of liberals doing, which is wrong.
But the bible is clear in what parts can, and can not, be taken symbolically. And 'symbolically' does not mean untrue. It simply means it uses images to portray truths that often hold great spiritual as well as physical meaning. As Christians we can't deny that our faith holds great spiritual weight...all the unseen things we have faith in are spiritual. When God uses images to portray what is going on in that spiritual realm, then of course we take it as true, as of highest importance, and as having a corresponding reaction here in the physical realm. Satan acts as a great dragon to kill us, and we see that as war, murder and hatred. Does that mean we have to expect an actual dragon roaring about? No. But when God calls him such, we know him as a vicious, great, hungry beast seeking to destroy and devour. Symbolism describing truth.

And really, we only do such 'spiritualizing' for books like Revelation and Daniel. There are fringes that take to the "replacement theology", but to be honest, most Amil's I know of, don't really hold to that. True replacement theology says that Israel has been totally abandoned and now the Church is all. But so many Amil's I know read the bible as saying that the Church has been added onto true Israel. How can we be accused of jettisoning Israel when we believe we've been added to her? Yes, we believe, as the bible says, that some...the majority of her has been broken off the vine in unbelief. But Romans clearly spells out a time when God will reverse her unbelief. And, you know, I think that's taking the bible fairly literally, so I don't think that can be called spiritualizing!

My point is...I think you are absolutely correct in your diagnosis above and it's worrying. But there are, in a few parts of scripture, valid reasons for interpreting things spiritually. As long as you let scripture itself guide you in that and be more worried about what God is saying, that what you feel is more comfortable, then we cannot say it is a bad thing.
 
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Enoch111

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And really, we only do such 'spiritualizing' for books like Revelation and Daniel.
And there is really no need to do that, since the images and symbols are also explained.

VISION The tree that thou sawest... INTERPRETATION It is thou, O king, that art grown and become strong... (Dan 4:20,22)

VISION Hew the tree down, and destroy it... INTERPRETATION That they shall drive thee from men, and thy dwelling shall be with the beasts of the field... (Dan 4:23,25)

VISION And whereas they commanded to leave the stump of the tree roots; INTERPRETATION ...thy kingdom shall be sure unto thee, after that thou shalt have known that the heavens do rule. (Dan 4:26)
 

Stranger

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This is a very good post, however, I do want to say one thing about "spiritualizing". As you know, I hold to an Amil perspective of End Time events, and we get accused of this extreme spiritulizing often. It's said that by coming at scripture like this we can twist the bible like a wax nose and make it say whatever we want. Which, to be honest, is what we see a lot of liberals doing, which is wrong.
But the bible is clear in what parts can, and can not, be taken symbolically. And 'symbolically' does not mean untrue. It simply means it uses images to portray truths that often hold great spiritual as well as physical meaning. As Christians we can't deny that our faith holds great spiritual weight...all the unseen things we have faith in are spiritual. When God uses images to portray what is going on in that spiritual realm, then of course we take it as true, as of highest importance, and as having a corresponding reaction here in the physical realm. Satan acts as a great dragon to kill us, and we see that as war, murder and hatred. Does that mean we have to expect an actual dragon roaring about? No. But when God calls him such, we know him as a vicious, great, hungry beast seeking to destroy and devour. Symbolism describing truth.

And really, we only do such 'spiritualizing' for books like Revelation and Daniel. There are fringes that take to the "replacement theology", but to be honest, most Amil's I know of, don't really hold to that. True replacement theology says that Israel has been totally abandoned and now the Church is all. But so many Amil's I know read the bible as saying that the Church has been added onto true Israel. How can we be accused of jettisoning Israel when we believe we've been added to her? Yes, we believe, as the bible says, that some...the majority of her has been broken off the vine in unbelief. But Romans clearly spells out a time when God will reverse her unbelief. And, you know, I think that's taking the bible fairly literally, so I don't think that can be called spiritualizing!

My point is...I think you are absolutely correct in your diagnosis above and it's worrying. But there are, in a few parts of scripture, valid reasons for interpreting things spiritually. As long as you let scripture itself guide you in that and be more worried about what God is saying, that what you feel is more comfortable, then we cannot say it is a bad thing.

Yes, I saw you were Amil. And, of course, I am not which means we would never agree on end time events. I do interpret the Bible using what people like to call the literal method, which is a poor term. It should be called the normal method but because it takes much of the Bible literally, then it has been given that name. But, the literal method allows for allegory, symbols, types, which are found in the Bible. The difference between you and I would be what we agreed on as an allegory, or symbol. The book of (Revelation) is full of symbols, yet the Bible itself identifies most everyone used. It doesn't have to be left to you or I to make up or 'spiritualize' the symbol.

To interpret 'literally' does not equate to 'non-spiritual'. I as a Christian, who has a born-again spirit, can read the Bible, which is from the Holy Spirit, and understand it and interpret it literally, or normally, and be just as 'spiritual' as anyone else.

What you see with many, is that they come to the Bible as though what the Bible says is not really the 'spiritual' meaning. There is an underlying spiritual meaning that one must look for. And of course one must be some special 'seer' to be able to do this. In actuality it is a lazy mans method as it requires no study, just an unbridled imagination.

Yes, I understand your point and Appreciate your post.

Stranger
 

bbyrd009

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ha one can say it all they like i guess, doesn't make it true

does God care about oxen?


it really isn't too important anyway, as there is no judgement for beliefs, as most of Christianity apparently teaches now; not sure when that started tbh.

You will never be asked whether you believed in God, or Allah, or Krishna,
or Jesus returning, or you going to heaven after you literally die.
Believe these as long as you like, they will not save you, nor make you lost.
To clarify here, i am saying that your belief in God will not "save" you, even a little bit; even if faith in God will

Your beliefs will inform your faith/actions however, and these actions will be judged, just like Scripture makes plain in many places.
All of these statements can be tested by Scripture for veracity, if you see any cracks holler :)

And that is certainly more than can be said of anyone telling you that Jesus will return, which cannot be Quoted anywhere, not even once
 
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Jay Ross

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I wonder does this verse qualify for your challenge?

John_14:1-6: - 14:1 "Let not your heart be troubled; you believe in God, believe also in Me. 2 In My Father's house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also. 4 And where I go you know, and the way you know."

5 Thomas said to Him, "Lord, we do not know where You are going, and how can we know the way?"

6 Jesus said to him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me."
 

Naomi25

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And there is really no need to do that, since the images and symbols are also explained.

VISION The tree that thou sawest... INTERPRETATION It is thou, O king, that art grown and become strong... (Dan 4:20,22)

VISION Hew the tree down, and destroy it... INTERPRETATION That they shall drive thee from men, and thy dwelling shall be with the beasts of the field... (Dan 4:23,25)

VISION And whereas they commanded to leave the stump of the tree roots; INTERPRETATION ...thy kingdom shall be sure unto thee, after that thou shalt have known that the heavens do rule. (Dan 4:26)

Not all the time they aren't. Here are some examples of symbols that we clearly take AS symbols, but are not explained as such:


In his right hand he held seven stars, from his mouth came a sharp two-edged sword, and his face was like the sun shining in full strength. - Revelation 1:16

Clearly people realize that Christ doesn't have a dirty great sword coming from his mouth. It is his word, his word of truth that will cut, sharper than a two edged sword, that proceeds from his mouth, that this is talking about. And yet it doesn't state this. It is assumed it by symbol.

And one of the elders said to me, “Weep no more; behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has conquered, so that he can open the scroll and its seven seals.” And between the throne and the four living creatures and among the elders I saw a Lamb standing, as though it had been slain, with seven horns and with seven eyes, which are the seven spirits of God sent out into all the earth. - Revelation 5:5–6

Again, we know that it is neither a Lion, or a Lamb that was actually seen. John see's Christ, victorious in his role as Lion, but standing as though slain, proving that his victory came through his sacrifice. Vivid symbolism!


Now I watched when the Lamb opened one of the seven seals, and I heard one of the four living creatures say with a voice like thunder, “Come!” And I looked, and behold, a white horse! And its rider had a bow, and a crown was given to him, and he came out conquering, and to conquer. When he opened the second seal, I heard the second living creature say, “Come!” And out came another horse, bright red. Its rider was permitted to take peace from the earth, so that people should slay one another, and he was given a great sword.
When he opened the third seal, I heard the third living creature say, “Come!” And I looked, and behold, a black horse! And its rider had a pair of scales in his hand. And I heard what seemed to be a voice in the midst of the four living creatures, saying, “A quart of wheat for a denarius, and three quarts of barley for a denarius, and do not harm the oil and wine!” When he opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth living creature say, “Come!” And I looked, and behold, a pale horse! And its rider's name was Death, and Hades followed him. And they were given authority over a fourth of the earth, to kill with sword and with famine and with pestilence and by wild beasts of the earth. - Revelation 6:1–8


Are readers to assume that actual horses and actual riders are to come forth? No, we automatically understand that these horses and riders symbolize things that are going to happen. The white horse symbolizes global unification under a leader or government, the red horse global war and destruction. The next two horses follows those two; the black shows famine and scarcity and the pale horse death and disease. We know that these 'riders and horses' are not really riders upon horses but states that will come upon the world. No one debates that.

And a great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars. She was pregnant and was crying out in birth pains and the agony of giving birth. And another sign appeared in heaven: behold, a great red dragon, with seven heads and ten horns, and on his heads seven diadems. His tail swept down a third of the stars of heaven and cast them to the earth. And the dragon stood before the woman who was about to give birth, so that when she bore her child he might devour it. She gave birth to a male child, one who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron, but her child was caught up to God and to his throne, and the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place prepared by God, in which she is to be nourished for 1,260 days. - Revelation 12:1–6

This passage is chock full of symbolism. The interpretation is often debated, but most people will agree that that woman is Israel, the child Christ, the dragon is clearly Satan. That established, we don't expect to see a literal woman 'clothed with the sun'. I mean...really? It has to be a symbol of something, but we are not told specifically what. A crown of 12 stars? Well, if a star was small enough to fit on a crown, swell...you get my drift...12 stars on a crown? Symbol again. A dragon with 7 heads? No doubt possible for Satan, should he choose, but do we imagine that he actually prowls around like that? And he swept a third of the stars to earth? Do you see how "literally" impossible that act is? If a third of the stars crashed to earth, the earth would be no more.

Look, my point is not to tear to shreds the notion of taking the bible 'literally', because in point of fact, when we take Revelation as Apocalyptic literature, as it is meant to be, we ARE taking it literally. My problem is with taking it literalistically. Trying to force images into a literal framework when clearly they were not meant to be taken that way. But I admire the heart of wanting to take the bible as true and as essential, and needing to stand behind that premise. I think that is spot on. Because it is true, and it is essential, every single word of it. We just need to realize that symbols can show truth just as well, as it does in Daniel, and Revelation.
 
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Naomi25

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Yes, I saw you were Amil. And, of course, I am not which means we would never agree on end time events. I do interpret the Bible using what people like to call the literal method, which is a poor term. It should be called the normal method but because it takes much of the Bible literally, then it has been given that name. The difference between you and I would be what we agreed on as an allegory, or symbol. The book of (Revelation) is full of symbols, yet the Bible itself identifies most everyone used. It doesn't have to be left to you or I to make up or 'spiritualize' the symbol.

To interpret 'literally' does not equate to 'non-spiritual'. I as a Christian, who has a born-again spirit, can read the Bible, which is from the Holy Spirit, and understand it and interpret it literally, or normally, and be just as 'spiritual' as anyone else.

What you see with many, is that they come to the Bible as though what the Bible says is not really the 'spiritual' meaning. There is an underlying spiritual meaning that one must look for. And of course one must be some special 'seer' to be able to do this. In actuality it is a lazy mans method as it requires no study, just an unbridled imagination.

Yes, I understand your point and Appreciate your post.

Stranger

I found your post quite interesting, because I could say much the same thing, only where you put 'literal' and 'spiritualize' I would swap 'em around. For example:

You said: "I do interpret the Bible using what people like to call the literal method, which is a poor term."
And I thought: "I interpret the Bible using what people like to call the spiritualizing method, which is also a poor term."

You said: "To interpret 'literally' does not equate to 'non-spiritual'."
I thought: "To interpret spiritually does not equate to 'non-literal'."

I could perhaps break it down further, but you get my point! I am aware, and thankful, that some 'literalists' actually embrace the fact that there are symbols and allegory in scripture, although sadly there are some who refuse to see them. But on the flip side, there are some who spiritualize far, far past what the bible gives us leave to.
I would have to disagree with your point that the bible mostly tells us what symbols are used are. I just posted an answer to Enoch 111 showing that there are several in Revelation where that is not the case, but we clearly take for granted that they are symbolic.
I am a lover of God's word, and I know it to be true and precious. And I'd stand up and fight for the truth of the literal events of creation, the flood, all of that. Because there is nothing in scripture that gives us leave to read it as symbolic, as imagery painting a greater truth. It just is. And so I take it as such. But I simply cannot see how it can be wrong to take books that are clearly written in this way, as that which they are presented. And so, until I am given leave by the Spirit bearing witness in me of the rightness of such, I'm afraid that is how I will go on seeing Revelation.
 
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Nancy

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Stranger

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I found your post quite interesting, because I could say much the same thing, only where you put 'literal' and 'spiritualize' I would swap 'em around. For example:

You said: "I do interpret the Bible using what people like to call the literal method, which is a poor term."
And I thought: "I interpret the Bible using what people like to call the spiritualizing method, which is also a poor term."

You said: "To interpret 'literally' does not equate to 'non-spiritual'."
I thought: "To interpret spiritually does not equate to 'non-literal'."

I could perhaps break it down further, but you get my point! I am aware, and thankful, that some 'literalists' actually embrace the fact that there are symbols and allegory in scripture, although sadly there are some who refuse to see them. But on the flip side, there are some who spiritualize far, far past what the bible gives us leave to.
I would have to disagree with your point that the bible mostly tells us what symbols are used are. I just posted an answer to Enoch 111 showing that there are several in Revelation where that is not the case, but we clearly take for granted that they are symbolic.
I am a lover of God's word, and I know it to be true and precious. And I'd stand up and fight for the truth of the literal events of creation, the flood, all of that. Because there is nothing in scripture that gives us leave to read it as symbolic, as imagery painting a greater truth. It just is. And so I take it as such. But I simply cannot see how it can be wrong to take books that are clearly written in this way, as that which they are presented. And so, until I am given leave by the Spirit bearing witness in me of the rightness of such, I'm afraid that is how I will go on seeing Revelation.

Yes, we have a disagreement as to what is literal and what is symbolic. Yet we both use literal and symbolic interpretation. My statement concerning symbols being interpreted in the Bible was to the book of (Revelation) I believe.

And there are symbols used in (Revealtion) but I believed they are understood from other Biblical terminology. I will have to look at those you say you posted to Enoch111.

Stranger
 

Enoch111

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Not all the time they aren't.
And that's fine. Nobody says that God does not use metaphors to present spiritual realities. But wholesale spiritualizing is a different matter. Some people want to see parables in everything. Others want to see allegories in everything. Some people want to dismiss the real and tangible altogether.
 

bbyrd009

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determinists want it their way no matter what, seems to me.
Of course Christ appears--when the Day Star arises in one's heart.
And of course He returns-when you return to Him, just like the Book says.
I will return to you
when you return to Me

but i would also listen very closely when someone tells you that Christ is not 100% with them right now, and be advised accordingly
 
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faithfulness

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determinists want it their way no matter what, seems to me.
Of course Christ appears--when the Day Star arises in one's heart.
And of course He returns-when you return to Him, just like the Book says.
I will return to you
when you return to Me

but i would also listen very closely when someone tells you that Christ is not 100% with them right now, and be advised accordingly

KJV Prov 4:18 But the path of the just is as the shining light, that shineth more and more unto the perfect day.
Darby Bible Translation But the path of the righteous is as the shining light, going on and brightening until the day be fully come.
So He appears every day? Or should be appearing in our hearts every day?
 
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bbyrd009

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KJV Prov 4:18 But the path of the just is as the shining light, that shineth more and more unto the perfect day.
Darby Bible Translation But the path of the righteous is as the shining light, going on and brightening until the day be fully come.
So He appears every day? Or should be appearing in our hearts every day?
it's convenient to believe that we have died in baptism, and that Christ is immediately revealed complete in us at that moment, and maybe for some people it even works like that, but it sure seems to be a process with me at least. And as best i remember i don't even recall being counselled to seek any humility at the time, my recollection is more like i was being stamped with some seal of approval right then, accepted into the winner's club or something? Perfectly tailored to my poor self-esteem and fractured ego, iow

and even now that i have met Christ in the air, ego is still an option, and humility is still a hard choice, especially sometimes, in some situations, more than others. So to answer your Q i would say that Christ becomes visible when i manifest Him, but if i blow it and choose not to He is no less there anyway, hidden? So then it is me who left and needs to "return" in that case, and suggesting that Christ is not fully there is like saying God is not omnipresent imo.

What should be appearing in our hearts every day is obv Christ in one sense, but in another sense what should be appearing is exactly what appears, that we may learn to judge by the fruit, imo. Iow it would be convenient to be able to say "Christ should be appearing in your heart and walk a little more every day, believer," or even "Christ will be..." but if the believer is twice the son of hell, or manifesting seven worse spirits--which i have lived both of those--then they are also serving God, as stranger as that seems? Few there are who find it implies that most believers do not find it, right, and i have witnessed many believers who died in their sins, unconfessed

I am not tasked with changing their minds iow, nor are they required to agree with me; and imo i am called to treat them the same way regardless, as humbly as possible. After all, i do not reap from their sowing

imo we all plainly broadcast exactly where we are in Christ, even if we are mostly blind to ourselves in this regard. Others will even mirror back to us what we are manifesting i guess, whether in humility or not; whether we can hear it or not, too
 
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Nancy

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it's convenient to believe that we have died in baptism, and that Christ is immediately revealed complete in us at that moment, and maybe for some people it even works like that, but it sure seems to be a process with me at least. And as best i remember i don't even recall being counselled to seek any humility at the time, my recollection is more like i was being stamped with some seal of approval right then, accepted into the winner's club or something? Perfectly tailored to my poor self-esteem and fractured ego, iow

and even now that i have met Christ in the air, ego is still an option, and humility is still a hard choice, especially sometimes, in some situations, more than others. So to answer your Q i would say that Christ becomes visible when i manifest Him, but if i blow it and choose not to He is no less there anyway, hidden? So then it is me who left and needs to "return" in that case, and suggesting that Christ is not fully there is like saying God is not omnipresent imo.

What should be appearing in our hearts every day is obv Christ in one sense, but in another sense what should be appearing is exactly what appears, that we may learn to judge by the fruit, imo. Iow it would be convenient to be able to say "Christ should be appearing in your heart and walk a little more every day, believer," or even "Christ will be..." but if the believer is twice the son of hell, or manifesting seven worse spirits--which i have lived both of those--then they are also serving God, as stranger as that seems? Few there are who find it implies that most believers do not find it, right, and i have witnessed many believers who died in their sins, unconfessed

I am not tasked with changing their minds iow, nor are they required to agree with me; and imo i am called to treat them the same way regardless, as humbly as possible. After all, i do not reap from their sowing

imo we all plainly broadcast exactly where we are in Christ, even if we are mostly blind to ourselves in this regard. Others will even mirror back to us what we are manifesting i guess, whether in humility or not; whether we can hear it or not, too

Very good post Mark. Jesus was and still is not fully realized in me yet...a process for all I think.
 
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faithfulness

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it's convenient to believe that we have died in baptism, and that Christ is immediately revealed complete in us at that moment, and maybe for some people it even works like that, but it sure seems to be a process with me at least. And as best i remember i don't even recall being counselled to seek any humility at the time, my recollection is more like i was being stamped with some seal of approval right then, accepted into the winner's club or something? Perfectly tailored to my poor self-esteem and fractured ego, iow

and even now that i have met Christ in the air, ego is still an option, and humility is still a hard choice, especially sometimes, in some situations, more than others. So to answer your Q i would say that Christ becomes visible when i manifest Him, but if i blow it and choose not to He is no less there anyway, hidden? So then it is me who left and needs to "return" in that case, and suggesting that Christ is not fully there is like saying God is not omnipresent imo.

What should be appearing in our hearts every day is obv Christ in one sense, but in another sense what should be appearing is exactly what appears, that we may learn to judge by the fruit, imo. Iow it would be convenient to be able to say "Christ should be appearing in your heart and walk a little more every day, believer," or even "Christ will be..." but if the believer is twice the son of hell, or manifesting seven worse spirits--which i have lived both of those--then they are also serving God, as stranger as that seems? Few there are who find it implies that most believers do not find it, right, and i have witnessed many believers who died in their sins, unconfessed

I am not tasked with changing their minds iow, nor are they required to agree with me; and imo i am called to treat them the same way regardless, as humbly as possible. After all, i do not reap from their sowing

imo we all plainly broadcast exactly where we are in Christ, even if we are mostly blind to ourselves in this regard. Others will even mirror back to us what we are manifesting i guess, whether in humility or not; whether we can hear it or not, too
While my brain goes TILT on some of your words, my heart says YES! to others, with many questions still...thank you.
 
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Heart2Soul

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Not all the time they aren't. Here are some examples of symbols that we clearly take AS symbols, but are not explained as such:


In his right hand he held seven stars, from his mouth came a sharp two-edged sword, and his face was like the sun shining in full strength. - Revelation 1:16

Clearly people realize that Christ doesn't have a dirty great sword coming from his mouth. It is his word, his word of truth that will cut, sharper than a two edged sword, that proceeds from his mouth, that this is talking about. And yet it doesn't state this. It is assumed it by symbol.

And one of the elders said to me, “Weep no more; behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has conquered, so that he can open the scroll and its seven seals.” And between the throne and the four living creatures and among the elders I saw a Lamb standing, as though it had been slain, with seven horns and with seven eyes, which are the seven spirits of God sent out into all the earth. - Revelation 5:5–6

Again, we know that it is neither a Lion, or a Lamb that was actually seen. John see's Christ, victorious in his role as Lion, but standing as though slain, proving that his victory came through his sacrifice. Vivid symbolism!


Now I watched when the Lamb opened one of the seven seals, and I heard one of the four living creatures say with a voice like thunder, “Come!” And I looked, and behold, a white horse! And its rider had a bow, and a crown was given to him, and he came out conquering, and to conquer. When he opened the second seal, I heard the second living creature say, “Come!” And out came another horse, bright red. Its rider was permitted to take peace from the earth, so that people should slay one another, and he was given a great sword.
When he opened the third seal, I heard the third living creature say, “Come!” And I looked, and behold, a black horse! And its rider had a pair of scales in his hand. And I heard what seemed to be a voice in the midst of the four living creatures, saying, “A quart of wheat for a denarius, and three quarts of barley for a denarius, and do not harm the oil and wine!” When he opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth living creature say, “Come!” And I looked, and behold, a pale horse! And its rider's name was Death, and Hades followed him. And they were given authority over a fourth of the earth, to kill with sword and with famine and with pestilence and by wild beasts of the earth. - Revelation 6:1–8


Are readers to assume that actual horses and actual riders are to come forth? No, we automatically understand that these horses and riders symbolize things that are going to happen. The white horse symbolizes global unification under a leader or government, the red horse global war and destruction. The next two horses follows those two; the black shows famine and scarcity and the pale horse death and disease. We know that these 'riders and horses' are not really riders upon horses but states that will come upon the world. No one debates that.

And a great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars. She was pregnant and was crying out in birth pains and the agony of giving birth. And another sign appeared in heaven: behold, a great red dragon, with seven heads and ten horns, and on his heads seven diadems. His tail swept down a third of the stars of heaven and cast them to the earth. And the dragon stood before the woman who was about to give birth, so that when she bore her child he might devour it. She gave birth to a male child, one who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron, but her child was caught up to God and to his throne, and the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place prepared by God, in which she is to be nourished for 1,260 days. - Revelation 12:1–6

This passage is chock full of symbolism. The interpretation is often debated, but most people will agree that that woman is Israel, the child Christ, the dragon is clearly Satan. That established, we don't expect to see a literal woman 'clothed with the sun'. I mean...really? It has to be a symbol of something, but we are not told specifically what. A crown of 12 stars? Well, if a star was small enough to fit on a crown, swell...you get my drift...12 stars on a crown? Symbol again. A dragon with 7 heads? No doubt possible for Satan, should he choose, but do we imagine that he actually prowls around like that? And he swept a third of the stars to earth? Do you see how "literally" impossible that act is? If a third of the stars crashed to earth, the earth would be no more.

Look, my point is not to tear to shreds the notion of taking the bible 'literally', because in point of fact, when we take Revelation as Apocalyptic literature, as it is meant to be, we ARE taking it literally. My problem is with taking it literalistically. Trying to force images into a literal framework when clearly they were not meant to be taken that way. But I admire the heart of wanting to take the bible as true and as essential, and needing to stand behind that premise. I think that is spot on. Because it is true, and it is essential, every single word of it. We just need to realize that symbols can show truth just as well, as it does in Daniel, and Revelation.
The woman clothed with the sun is a combination of stars and planets that come together at the right time.....as the scripture says.....I saw a great sign appear in heaven....this did occur last year.
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woman clothed in the sun revelation - Bing video is a video teaching of it....
 

Enoch111

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The woman clothed with the sun is a combination of stars and planets that come together at the right time.....as the scripture says.....I saw a great sign appear in heaven....this did occur last year.
This sign of the woman is directly connected to the casting down of Satan and his evil angels from the atmospheric heavens just before the Antichrist takes control of the earth. That is yet future, so you have misapplied the alignment of stars and planets.
 
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