When Is Flesh Man Judged To Perish?

[Davy]

The lake of fire is torment? Yes?

Some Bible Scriptures point to the future "lake of fire" as an everlasting burning, and some Scriptures point to a destruction and being no more (like in the Psalms 37:10). Your choice on that, I'll not get into debates of whether souls burn continuously forever and ever in the future "lake of fire" event.

So my point still is, the fact that Rev.20:14 declares the abode of "hell" (haides) goes into the "lake of fire". So you have to keep those two things separate according to God's Word.

 

[Davy]

Isn’t hell, death, evil and the curse swallowed up in victory?

Death is not destroyed until after the GWT Judgment into the "lake of fire". That is what Rev.20 shows, so why haven't you read it?

 

[Jay Ross]

These and many more Scriptures show what you're saying is not true:

Rev 21:3
3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people, and God Himself shall be with them, and be their God.
KJV

Ezek 43:6-7
6 And I heard him speaking unto me out of the house; and the man stood by me.
7 And he said unto me, 'Son of man, the place of My throne, and the place of the soles of My feet, where I will dwell in the midst of the children of Israel for ever, and My holy name, shall the house of Israel no more defile, neither they, nor their kings, by their whoredom, nor by the carcases of their kings in their high places.'
KJV

Rev 7:15-17
15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve Him day and night in His temple: and He That sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.
16 They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat.
17 For the Lamb Which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.
KJV

Ezek 48:35
35 It was round about eighteen thousand measures: and the name of the city from that day shall be, The LORD is there.
KJV

Matt 25:31-33
31 When the Son of man shall come in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then shall He sit upon the throne of His glory:
32 And before Him shall be gathered all nations: and He shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33 And He shall set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left.
KJV

Davy, it seems we are having a timing problem. The above passages that you have presented are applicable for the very end of the Millennium Age and the Age that is to follow after the Millennium Age.

Shalom

 

[CoreIssue]

Davy, it seems we are having a timing problem. The above passages that you have presented are applicable for the very end of the Millennium Age and the Age that is to follow after the Millennium Age.

Shalom

After the millennial age is eternity.

 

[Naomi25]

Sad all right; that you fail to prove your beliefs. All opinion and no proper rebuttal.
Believing that wicked people are tortured forever, that there is consciousness and an intermediate stage after death, and worse of all; a 'rapture to heaven' of the Church before any Judgment, places you firmly as a cult member, as none of those things are supported in the Bible.

While I agree that Dispensationalists need to do less opinion and more biblical proof, and that the bible talks of a single event that combines the Rapture and the judgement, I cannot agree with your other points.
The bible does, indeed indicate an eternal torment of souls who deny Christ.

I tell you, many will come from east and west and recline at table with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven, while the sons of the kingdom will be thrown into the outer darkness. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.” -Matthew 8:11–12

Just as the weeds are gathered and burned with fire, so will it be at the end of the age. The Son of Man will send his angels, and they will gather out of his kingdom all causes of sin and all law-breakers, and throw them into the fiery furnace. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. -Matthew 13:40–42

And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.” -Matthew 25:46

And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. -Daniel 12:2

and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever. -Revelation 20:10

And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done. Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire. -Revelation 20:13–15

So, clearly we can see that if someone is not found in Christ at the time of judgement, he will be in a place of 'weeping and gnashing of teeth', of 'eternal punishment' and 'shame and everlasting contempt'. And we can also see that if their name is not in the book of life, they will be thrown into the lake of fire, which is a place of "torment, day and night forever and ever".

As hard as this doctrine is, it is clearly scriptural. And makes the sacrifice and offer of Christ even more precious.

In regards to whether or not unsaved people are 'conscious' or not between their death and this judgement is a matter of debate. The only real word, it seems, in scripture about it is the parable on Lazarus and the rich man, where both died and Lazarus went to "Abrahams bosom" and the rich man went to Hades, where he was "in torment". Some people dismiss this as only a parable whose meaning lies elsewhere. This could be true, although why Jesus would make up fiction to support his point is questionable.
We could draw certain conclusions from what the bible says about the souls of saved people, once they die. Do we "soul sleep"? The answer to that is a definite no.

And he said, “Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.” And he said to him, “Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in paradise.” -Luke 23:42–43

So we are always of good courage. We know that while we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord, for we walk by faith, not by sight. Yes, we are of good courage, and we would rather be away from the body and at home with the Lord. -2 Corinthians 5:6–8

I am hard pressed between the two. My desire is to depart and be with Christ, for that is far better. -Philippians 1:23

 

[Keraz]

Thanks for you reasonable comments, Naomi. You do try to support your beliefs scripturally, unlike others here.

However; I contend that eternal punishment is separation from God and there is no requirement for eternal torture of the wicked.
I see Revelation 20:10 and the weeping and gnashing of teeth, as admonitions for us to avoid the fate of the wicked.

Re soul sleep, this is proved by Job 14:10-14, Eccl 9:5-6, and Ezekiel 33:20-32 has a story about where the dead reside. They all have no consciousness.
The story Jesus told about Lazarus and the rich man was a homily, designed to hammer home the fact that Salvation is NOW, when you die its too late.
The thief on the cross, did not go to heaven when he died, because Jesus didn't go there Himself until many days later. Acts 1:11 Jesus plainly stated that no one goes to heaven, except the One who came from there. John 3:13
That man awaits Judgement at the Great White Throne, like everyone else who has ever lived. Revelation 20:12-13
Including Job, Abraham, David, and Lazarus. [Martha's brother] But his and their names are Written in the Book of Life, so they will all receive immortality.

 

[Naomi25]

Thanks for you reasonable comments, Naomi. You do try to support your beliefs scripturally, unlike others here.

However; I contend that eternal punishment is separation from God and there is no requirement for eternal torture of the wicked.
I see Revelation 20:10 and the weeping and gnashing of teeth, as admonitions for us to avoid the fate of the wicked.

Well, to be fair, the texts say 'eternal torment', not torture. It is entirely possible that people will be tormented by the eternal knowledge of the truth and the subsequent separation from God.
As per 'weeping and gnashing of teeth', I'm not sure I can agree with you there. It seems to me that the text is rather clear. Yes, one can clearly come away from it with the determination of wanting to avoid a similar fate, but it can only be a fate to be avoided if it is an actual fate. Also, the actual words used, seem to imply a direct causal link between refusal of Christ and the punishment listed. So, rather than the texts being "cautionary" in type, they show an if/then pattern.

Re soul sleep, this is proved by Job 14:10-14, Eccl 9:5-6, and Ezekiel 33:20-32 has a story about where the dead reside.
The story Jesus told about Lazarus and the rich man was a homily, designed to hammer home the fact that Salvation is NOW, when you die its too late.
The thief on the cross, did not go to heaven when he died, because Jesus didn't go there Himself until many days later. Acts 1:11 Jesus plainly stated that no one goes to heaven, except the One who came from there. John 3:13
That man awaits Judgement at the Great White Throne, like everyone else who has ever lived. Revelation 20:12-13
Including Job, Abraham, David, and Lazarus. [Martha's brother] But his and their names are Written in the Book of Life, so they will all receive immortality.

Thank you for posting passages. It's remarkable the number of people who seem to think refuting by opinion is sufficient!
Job 14 talks of 'not waking' or 'being roused from sleep'. While its possible he is talking about soul sleep, I believe it is much more likely he is using the term 'sleep' in reference to death like Jesus and Paul did. And there is no mystery here. Job most certainly won't "wake" until the resurrection...not with his new resurrection body, anyway. But this in no way tells us that his spirit, or mind, is "asleep" in the interim. Especially when we have passages in the NT that tell us otherwise.
Ecc 9 is speaking about the inevitability of death and how, once a person has died "the memory of them is forgotten". It speaks to us about how what is important in life vanishes like water through your fingers when you die...all forgotten. The fact that verse 6 goes on to talk about how all emotion they experienced is gone, and they shall never again share anything under the sun, tells us that the verses in question are focusing on this side of the grave and the fleetingness of life...not what happens on the otherside. Apart from making a case that what mattered here does not matter once dead, I'm not sure you could make a case for soul sleep from this verse.
Um, perhaps I'm not seeing it, but...can't see your "where the dead reside" in Ezk 33:20-32, sorry, so can't comment.
The parable of Lazarus and the rich man...there are many different interpretations on it, and which is valid or not. I'm not really dogmatic on any. I do find it interesting that it is the only parable of Christ's where a person is given a name. We also know that Hades is a real place, and that Abraham is a real person. Which leaves us wondering...
It is very possible that Jesus did not go to heaven that day on the cross. A lot of people think he went to "Abrahams bosom", as mentioned in the above parable, to preach to those OT saints. But...that's not really the point, is it? Where he went? The point is quite simply, he promised the thief that he would be somewhere...that day. Somewhere called paradise.
I don't believe anyone has suggested that "to be at home with the Lord" means to bypass the Judgement seat early. That, we all know, lies at Christ's second coming. But again, the verses that comment on it do not mention that those "coming out of the grave" have been in soul sleep or not. All we are left with, is Paul's comments, and Christs.

 

[Keraz]

If I died, I could prove my points, then because I would have no consciousness; how could I tell you? [joke]
To me the proofs are in Jesus Words:

John 3:13 No one has gone up to heaven, except the One who came down from there…
Jesus is talking about the things of heaven, truths that apply forever.

John 7:33-34…I am going away to Him who sent Me and where I go, you cannot come.
A plain statement that also applies forever.

John 8:21-23 Again He said: Where I go, you cannot come. You belong to this world below, I to the world above….
Our home is the earth, we are earth people and not spirits and even after the Millennium, those worthy will become immortal, but will still remain on earth. Revelation 21:1-4

John 17:15 I do not pray that You take My people out of this world, but to keep them from the evil one.
Jesus was talking to God and what He asked applies to all Christians. Remember: we pray for God’s Kingdom to come on earth as it is in heaven and it will, with the New Jerusalem.

Revelation 5:10 You have made them priests for our God and they shall reign on earth.
This refers to every faithful Christian, people from every tribe, race, nation and language, they shall reign on earth. That is our destiny, we never go to heaven, only our souls if we are martyred. Revelation 6:9-11

 

[Davy]

Davy, it seems we are having a timing problem. The above passages that you have presented are applicable for the very end of the Millennium Age and the Age that is to follow after the Millennium Age.

Shalom

The event of the full Godhead returning to earth like Apostle Paul showed at the end of the 1 Cor.15:23-28 section is about the time after Christ's thousand years reign. But Scripture like Matt.25 and Ezek.43 is Millennial timing. Zechariah 14 is Millennial timing after Christ's feet touch down upon the Mount of Olives.

 

[Jay Ross]

The event of the full Godhead returning to earth like Apostle Paul showed at the end of the 1 Cor.15:23-28 section is about the time after Christ's thousand years reign. But Scripture like Matt.25 and Ezek.43 is Millennial timing. Zechariah 14 is Millennial timing after Christ's feet touch down upon the Mount of Olives.

Davy, I have problems with being emphatic with the timing of the above passages.

For example Ezek. 43:7a states this: -

Ezek. 43:7a: - 7 And He said to me, "Son of man, this is the place of My throne and the place of the soles of My feet, where I will dwell in the midst of the children of Israel, forever.​

The Hebrew Root H:5769 has associated with it a time stamp, which is a time that is out of mind and beyond our comprehension, at the vanishing point in time, in the distant future.

Ez. 43:7a is telling us that God, in our distant future, will live with us, in the place where the Temple once stood. Ez.43:6 sets the place from which God speaks to Ezekiel.

Ezek. 43:6: - 6 Then I heard Him speaking to me from the temple, while a man stood beside me.​

Since the Temple was in ruins when Ezekiel lived, the Temple that Ezekiel saw in this vision was a temple within the vision that he was experiencing and probably was the Temple in Jerusalem before it is destroyed by King Neb..

When does God come down from Heaven to live with the Saints on this earth? After the GWT judgement in Rev. 20 as recorded in Rev. 21-22. Possibly very early on during the Age of Eternity after the Earth is cleansed and restored.

Shalom

 

[Naomi25]

If I died, I could prove my points, then because I would have no consciousness; how could I tell you? [joke]
To me the proofs are in Jesus Words:

Ah, but that would be cheating! How many of us would love it if a passed on loved one just popped in with a bit of knowledge from the here-after? We are just not meant to have that knowledge now, I believe...one of the reasons I think the "I died and saw heaven" book craze is bogus...

John 3:13 No one has gone up to heaven, except the One who came down from there…
Jesus is talking about the things of heaven, truths that apply forever.

John 7:33-34…I am going away to Him who sent Me and where I go, you cannot come.
A plain statement that also applies forever.

John 8:21-23 Again He said: Where I go, you cannot come. You belong to this world below, I to the world above….
Our home is the earth, we are earth people and not spirits and even after the Millennium, those worthy will become immortal, but will still remain on earth. Revelation 21:1-4

John 17:15 I do not pray that You take My people out of this world, but to keep them from the evil one.
Jesus was talking to God and what He asked applies to all Christians. Remember: we pray for God’s Kingdom to come on earth as it is in heaven and it will, with the New Jerusalem.

Revelation 5:10 You have made them priests for our God and they shall reign on earth.
This refers to every faithful Christian, people from every tribe, race, nation and language, they shall reign on earth. That is our destiny, we never go to heaven, only our souls if we are martyred. Revelation 6:9-11

I suppose, really, it all comes down to exegesis, doesn't it? You have several verses which you think mean we can't possibly know...or go...to heaven. And I have several verses which I think say that when we die, that's exactly where we go. Where do we meet? We know the bible isn't contradictory, so the disagreement in interpretive stances lie with us!
I know you clearly disagree, and that's cool, but for me, the verses you quote above are much more ambiguous in the context in question, while Paul, and Christ, speak rather openly about it. The verses above can, and I think do, have other meanings than what you've suggested. Whereas when Paul says "to die means I'm with Christ"...and we know Christ is in heaven...well, I'm inclined to go with that.
But...as I said, you are free to disagree with me.

 

[farouk]

While I agree that Dispensationalists need to do less opinion and more biblical proof, and that the bible talks of a single event that combines the Rapture and the judgement...

Actually I don't even agree with you there; for example, in 1 Thessalonians 4 Paul is not talking about Israel; he is not talking about Gentiles; he is talking about the rapture of the church.

 

[farouk]

... when Paul says "to die means I'm with Christ"...and we know Christ is in heaven...well, I'm inclined to go with that.

Yes, indeed; I strong agree this is a Biblical hope.

 

[Keraz]

Ah, but that would be cheating! How many of us would love it if a passed on loved one just popped in with a bit of knowledge from the here-after? We are just not meant to have that knowledge now, I believe...one of the reasons I think the "I died and saw heaven" book craze is bogus...

I suppose, really, it all comes down to exegesis, doesn't it? You have several verses which you think mean we can't possibly know...or go...to heaven. And I have several verses which I think say that when we die, that's exactly where we go. Where do we meet? We know the bible isn't contradictory, so the disagreement in interpretive stances lie with us!
I know you clearly disagree, and that's cool, but for me, the verses you quote above are much more ambiguous in the context in question, while Paul, and Christ, speak rather openly about it. The verses above can, and I think do, have other meanings than what you've suggested. Whereas when Paul says "to die means I'm with Christ"...and we know Christ is in heaven...well, I'm inclined to go with that.

I fully agree, the books and stories about NDE's or OBE's, [Near Death Experiences & Out of Body Experiences] are Satanic deceptions. We are told he can impersonate an angel of light.

2 Corinthians 5:8 We are confident, I say and would rather be exiled from the body and make our home with the Lord.
I presume this is your 'going to live in heaven' scripture?

The context is about our hope for immortality, as Jesus promised in John 3:16. Heaven is not mentioned as a destination.
2 Corinthians 5:10 goes on to say: For we must all have our live laid open at the Judgement of Christ, where each must receive what is due to him for his conduct in the body, whether good or bad.
When is the Judgment of every individual? AFTER the Millennium; Revelation 20:11-15 Then: God and heaven will come to us. Revelation 21:1-7

I go along with Jesus, His plain statements that we can't and don't go to heaven is proof enough, but there is also where the scriptures do tell us we WILL go. Many prophesies plainly state that the Lord will gather His faithful Christian people into all of the holy Land. Where we will be the People that God always wanted there; His witnesses, Isaiah 43:10, John 15:27 and His Light to the nations. Isaiah 49:9, Matthew 5:14-16

John sees the Christians, people from every tribe, [of Israel] every race, nation and language, in Jerusalem, Revelation 7:9-14. soon after the Sixth Seal disaster has cleared and cleansed the entire Middle East region. Zephaniah 1:14-18, Ezekiel 30:1-5, Jeremiah 10:18, +
Of course, virtually everyone has just assumed that scene was in heaven, but careful exegesis shows it isn't. Proved by how that chapter starts with 3 verses setting the earthly scene and no mention anywhere later, of a change in location.

 

[Naomi25]

Actually I don't even agree with you there; for example, in 1 Thessalonians 4 Paul is not talking about Israel; he is not talking about Gentiles; he is talking about the rapture of the church.

Forgive me, I'm not sure about your reference to Israel of Gentiles here, but in regards to the Rapture of the Church and it's timing with regard to the second coming? I think there is ample evidence to suggest that they are one and the same event.

In the passage you mention, 1 Thess 4, the correlations between it and the Olivet Discourse are remarkable...

For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord. Therefore encourage one another with these words. -1 Thessalonians 4:16–18

“Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. -Matthew 24:29–31

So, we can see that both accounts have Christ returning himself from heaven with the sound of a trumpet, accompanied by angels to gather, supernaturally, his elect. The fact that these accounts are not identical is not a great concern; just as the gospels are not identical, it enhances it veracity, rather than detracts from it.

The interesting point to take away from this, is that in Christ's account, he labels this coming as "immediately after the tribulation of those days". So...we can see from this that the 1 Thess 4 passage is actually talking about a Rapture event that happens after the tribulation.

Also, when we look at the grammar used in 1 Thess 4, it becomes very difficult to believe that Paul is talking about anything other than the second coming. There are 5 references in 1 Thess to Christ's return: 1:9-10; 2:19-20; 3:12-13; 4:15-17; 5:23. The last four use the word parousia with the definite article (the parousia) and 2:19, 3:13 and 5:23 contain the phrase en te parousia (at the coming).
Dispensationalists seem to assign 1:9-10, 2:19-20, 4:15-17 and 5:23 to the Pre-trib Rapture and then 3:12-13 to the second coming, but grammatically, this is not permitted.
There is not the smallest hint, within the text, that gives us leave to suggest that there are two comings of Christ, or that we may swap between the two at random even though the word for "the" event remains the same.

 

[Naomi25]

I fully agree, the books and stories about NDE's or OBE's, [Near Death Experiences & Out of Body Experiences] are Satanic deceptions. We are told he can impersonate an angel of light.

I think that when Paul told us that he had 'seen things that were not permissable to speak of', that sort of said it all. We don't need to know exactly what waits for us. And those who attempt to are just selling something.

2 Corinthians 5:8 We are confident, I say and would rather be exiled from the body and make our home with the Lord.
I presume this is your 'going to live in heaven' scripture?

The context is about our hope for immortality, as Jesus promised in John 3:16. Heaven is not mentioned as a destination.

Yes, it is 'one' of my passages. And yes, it most certainly does talk about the hope of the resurrection, our new bodies and eternity. But there is also a reference to something else...


For we know that if the tent that is our earthly home is destroyed (earthly body), we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens (eternal body). For in this tent we groan, longing to put on our heavenly dwelling, if indeed by putting it on we may not be found naked (intermediary body). For while we are still in this tent, we groan, being burdened—not that we would be unclothed, but that we would be further clothed, so that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life. He who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who has given us the Spirit as a guarantee. So we are always of good courage. We know that while we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord, for we walk by faith, not by sight. Yes, we are of good courage, and we would rather be away from the body and at home with the Lord. So whether we are at home or away, we make it our aim to please him. For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive what is due for what he has done in the body, whether good or evil. -2 Corinthians 5:1–10

Many theologians believe that this third reference is to a third state...this 'nakedness'...that we can look forward to not having when we put on our 'heavenly body'. We know it is not our 'earthly tent'...it is something else, something in-between. Now...granted, it does not say it outright. But it also doesn't not outright say "resurrection body", or "die"...there is a certain amount of metaphorical language use, of imagry applied here. So, when we combine it with verse 8 "we would rather be away from the body and at home with the Lord", certain connections are made. Away from our body? Home with the Lord? Where is the Lord now? Has he spoken of making a home for us in "his Fathers house".

Another passage that Paul puts forth along these lines is this:

I am hard pressed between the two. My desire is to depart and be with Christ, for that is far better. -Philippians 1:23

It is clear that Paul believes that should he die, he will be with Christ immediately. And the author of Hebrews seems to assume the same:

and to the assembly of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect, -Hebrews 12:23


When we put these things together with the previous passage and Christ speaking to the thief on the cross, we must, regardless of where a person goes, come to the conclusion that a person does not become unconscious when they die, but their spirit is aware, somewhere. And, Paul would have us believe that somewhere is with Christ.

2 Corinthians 5:10 goes on to say: For we must all have our live laid open at the Judgement of Christ, where each must receive what is due to him for his conduct in the body, whether good or bad.
When is the Judgment of every individual? AFTER the Millennium; Revelation 20:11-15 Then: God and heaven will come to us. Revelation 21:1-7

No, I completely agree that this passage begins and ends with speaking about our resurrections bodies. It begins by comparing them to our earthly ones, and ends by telling us about the Judgement seat, where each of us will stand before the throne, receiving his or her rewards or having their works tested by fire. We shall receive our new bodies at his return, which is at the same time.
However, it doesn't mean that the passage didn't address the intermediate state. Paul doesn't take time to go into it...he never does. It just seems there is much we don't need to know about it. But there is enough there to suggest to us that there will be one.

I go along with Jesus, His plain statements that we can't and don't go to heaven is proof enough, but there is also where the scriptures do tell us we WILL go. Many prophesies plainly state that the Lord will gather His faithful Christian people into all of the holy Land. Where we will be the People that God always wanted there; His witnesses, Isaiah 43:10, John 15:27 and His Light to the nations. Isaiah 49:9, Matthew 5:14-16

Previously you referred to John 3:13, where Jesus said that "no one has ascended into heaven except he who has decended, the Son of Man", as proof that no one has gone to heaven upon their deaths. I think there is another, good, explination of that verse. When we look at the context, Jesus is scolding Nicodemus, who was supposed to be a teacher of teachers among the Jews, and yet he did not understand what he should have. Jesus tells him that if Nicodemus cannot understand simple, earthly things when Jesus tells him, then how can he understand heavenly things. Then comes our verse. Do we suppose that Jesus leaps to telling Nicodemus that people will not go to heaven when they die? Or do we think that Jesus is still talking about knowledge? Where else do we see the same sort of language in scripture? Ascending language? How about this?


“How you are fallen from heaven,
O Day Star, son of Dawn!
How you are cut down to the ground,
you who laid the nations low!
You said in your heart,
‘I will ascend to heaven;
above the stars of God
I will set my throne on high;
I will sit on the mount of assembly
in the far reaches of the north;
I will ascend above the heights of the clouds;
I will make myself like the Most High.’ -Isaiah 14:12–14

This type of language is about access and intimacy to God and power, not about location, location, location. Only Jesus Christ has sat on the throne with God, because he IS God. No one has ascended to heaven like him, because there is only one God. And only the God/Man has humbled himself to 'descend' and come down in humility, to be born of woman and walk among us as one of us. He was speaking to Nicodemus truly as a man, but truly as one who had authority on high.

John sees the Christians, people from every tribe, [of Israel] every race, nation and language, in Jerusalem, Revelation 7:9-14. soon after the Sixth Seal disaster has cleared and cleansed the entire Middle East region. Zephaniah 1:14-18, Ezekiel 30:1-5, Jeremiah 10:18, +
Of course, virtually everyone has just assumed that scene was in heaven, but careful exegesis shows it isn't. Proved by how that chapter starts with 3 verses setting the earthly scene and no mention anywhere later, of a change in location.

It's interesting you bought this up, as I was going to. You say careful exegesis shows none of these scenes are in heaven? I question that, because it seems to me that they are. The altar, the throne, the souls crying out, those dressed in white? I think, beyond a doubt, that Revelation describes these things as heavenly scenes.

 

[Keraz]

It's interesting you bought this up, as I was going to. You say careful exegesis shows none of these scenes are in heaven? I question that, because it seems to me that they are. The altar, the throne, the souls crying out, those dressed in white? I think, beyond a doubt, that Revelation describes these things as heavenly scenes.

It is far from 'beyond doubt' that the vast multitude of Revelation 7:9-14 are in heaven. The text does NOT say that. It is just an assumption, one made by those who believe in the 'rapture to heaven' false teaching.
Standing on earth, they can view God's Throne, etc. We know from 2 witnesses that this is possible if God wills it. Ezekiel 1:1 and Acts 7:56
They are the people who held fast to their trust and faith in God during the just previous, Sixth Seal worldwide disaster.

But, Naomi, I respect your beliefs and I am well aware of the extreme unlikelihood of you renouncing them.
My aim is to make you think about it, as I know most rapture believers have never been told that there is a scriptural alternative. A scenario that shows the destiny of God's faithful people, enduring thru trials and their eventual privilege of being with Jesus as His priests and co-rulers in the Millennium.

 

[Davy]

Since the Temple was in ruins when Ezekiel lived, the Temple that Ezekiel saw in this vision was a temple within the vision that he was experiencing and probably was the Temple in Jerusalem before it is destroyed by King Neb..

I strongly disagree with that.

That temple of Ezekiel has never been built. That River of waters shown in Ezekiel 47 coming out of the sanctuary to feed and heal waters upon the earth, with the tree of life being described with it, has never... appeared on this earth during this present world time.

 

[Jay Ross]

I strongly disagree with that.

That temple of Ezekiel has never been built. That River of waters shown in Ezekiel 47 coming out of the sanctuary to feed and heal waters upon the earth, with the tree of life being described with it, has never... appeared on this earth during this present world time.

Davy, I do not object to you strongly disagreeing with what I have posted when it has been backed up with scripture that supports your POV.

But I do object to you strongly disagreeing with what I have posted from a position of ignorance and a lack of understanding of how prophecy fits together.

The Ezekiel 47:1-12 prophecy began when God filled Solomon's Temple at its dedication and we will come up to the 3,000th year of it being fulfilled around 20 -30 years into the next age.

This prophecy provides a starting point for when it began being fulfilled and an ending point when the living waters of the river of life cascade over the escarpment into the valley below to bring healing to the earth. It also matches the parable of the Sower, as told by Jesus, in the description of the numbers of people that enters the River of Life, at the discrete time intervals given in the prophecy, since the Temple was dedicated by Solomon.

At this present time the cares of the world are limiting the number of people who are entering the River of Life. The number of posts about the cares of the world on this forum supports this fact.

The outer courts of the temple being left to the heathen Gentiles as they have no understanding of God and His ordinances and as such they are not able to fully enter the temple of God, but only trample the temple sanctuary and the time set for this to occur is 2,300 years as given in Dan.8.

God when He comes down from Heaven to live on the earth does so on the Holy Mountain at Jerusalem, when he will set His feet upon the Holy Ground.

Shalom

 

[Naomi25]

It is far from 'beyond doubt' that the vast multitude of Revelation 7:9-14 are in heaven. The text does NOT say that. It is just an assumption, one made by those who believe in the 'rapture to heaven' false teaching.
Standing on earth, they can view God's Throne, etc. We know from 2 witnesses that this is possible if God wills it. Ezekiel 1:1 and Acts 7:56

But isn't this just an assumption as well? You are assuming that the people are on earth 'seeing' into heaven, because the text does not stipulate that either. Sure, of course God can 'make' anything happen, if he wants. But the text doesn't say they "saw" the throne, it says that they were "standing before" the throne and before the Lamb. And the thing we know about thrones in Revelation is, that apart from 'Satans throne', all of the thrones that appear, are in heaven. So, I would have to say that between the two opinions the 'assumption' that comes closest, is the one 'standing before', rather 'gazing upon'...wouldn't you say?

They are the people who held fast to their trust and faith in God during the just previous, Sixth Seal worldwide disaster.

Here's where our real differences in Revelation kicks in, as I would say that the previous 5 Seals describe the time between the two comings of Christ. So, in a sense I agree with you...they are the people who held fast to their trust and faith. But, for me, that can absolutely put them in heaven now.

But, Naomi, I respect your beliefs and I am well aware of the extreme unlikelihood of you renouncing them.
My aim is to make you think about it, as I know most rapture believers have never been told that there is a scriptural alternative. A scenario that shows the destiny of God's faithful people, enduring thru trials and their eventual privilege of being with Jesus as His priests and co-rulers in the Millennium.

Oh...I'm not a "Rapture" believer, if by that you mean a Dispenationalist. I'm an Amillenialist. So...yes, I do believe in a Rapture, I absolutely think its biblical, I just think it happens at the second coming, when Christ raises the death, judges mankind and makes all things new.
And yes, I am fairly well seated in my belief, but I am not opposed to changing my mind should someone show me solid, biblical reasons that I am wrong. I don't feel anyone has, thus far, but I am certainly open to it. I used to be a Dispensationalist, some time ago...and the thing about realising that Dispensationalism is not biblical is...it tends to teach you to keep an eye on scripture over your current system. You become keen to not fall back into the trap of putting a doctrine above scripture again. So, while I am currently convinced of the Amil system, by no means will I turn my back if someone can prove to me from scripture that things don't line up.