Where in the bible does it say I need to use it

[FHII]

Interesting thing is that I haven't seen Ronald respond to one of the rebuttals. I am fine with that. Maybe he is just monitoring what is said. So, here's my take:

So I'm going to make it real easy for you to prove your point and ask you where in the bible does it say God gave Christians the bible as a guide for life and that's it?

Well, he didn't directly. A guide for life? It is that, but it's supposed to be much more. Is there not an afterlife? Are we not supposed to be preparing for it? It is a guide for life, but as the Bible says, "If only in THIS LIFE we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable" (1 Cor 15:19). In other words, the Bible will help you in this life, but it is meant for more.

1. All scripture is God breathed but that verse does not state anything about scriptures existence only being in the bible

Well, that really perplexes me. "Scripture" is from the word "script":. Something written other than spoken or acted out. So if you want to believe extra-biblical writings, fine. I am game for that! But I do believe what is in the Bible is scripture.

The end of revelations only applies to the book of revelations, not this culmination you guys concocted.

So do we only apply that to Revelation? Is it ok to add or take away from any book?

There is a fatal flaw in this argument because later Ronald is going to say the Apostles aren't authentic to some degree, but here he is quoting them.

My opinion is that when John wrote that, yes he was speaking of his particular book. However, it is true for every book in the Bible.

The only thing God ever sent down was His Spirit. He sent the Spirit to guide Christians, not this culmination of writing (most of which is unreliable anyways).

Well how do you know? The scripture certainly says that's not true. He sent manna, curses, blessings, his son.

Yes he sent his spirit, and I believe that. But how and to whom? He sent his spirit to individuals to teach others and threw them they receive the spirit of truth.

How does faith come? Not by reading, but hearing! And you can't hear without a preacher! God chose through the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe. That is in the scripture, and many don't like it! So yes, the Spirit is sent to all, but not directly to them. He sent men to distribute it.

so in order for the writings of a person to be held as scripture that person needs to say what God says. None of the apostles fit the bill, so you can't go believing what they say to be true because they said it.

Oh really? We can't believe any of the Apostles?

The words of Jesus are different as he was wholly in line with God, but since the apostles weren't, you can't go believing what they said just because they said it.

Well, which of the books did Jesus write? Jesus wrote in sand once, but I don't recall Jesus writing anything else. So the words of Jesus are different, but who wrote those words?

Matthew (an Apostle). Mark (another apostle). Luke (NOT an Apostle, but he wrote a gospel and the book of Acts). John (an Apostle, who wrote 4 other books).

Jesus didn't write a gospel. He gave that task to others. So if we are to hold the words of Jesus higher and above those of the Apostles... And the Apostles weren't in line with God... Well... Huh? We don't know the Words of Jesus except by the Apostles! And Luke, who was a gentile!

So if you are going to consider the Words of Jesus different, then since the Matthew, Mark, Luke and John wrote them, we must conclude they we guided by the spirit. So what of Acts, I John, II John, III and Revelations? Did the spirit leave them when the wrote those books?

You want to believe the words of Jesus. I do too. But what of the books of Jonah, Isaiah, Psalms and others which he quoted? He certainly held the in high regards. I submit if Jesus considered them the Word of God, we should too. I mean, ANYTHING Jesus said. -- written or unwritten-- is good enough for me. But we know he said these things.

Now if you believe the Words of Jesus, what about when he Said he was giving Peter the keys? He gave all the Apostles the keys... But first to Peter. Can we not believe he had the spirit? If that Spirit is so powerful in us all, what of Peter?

I don't think if you have the Holy Spirit, it's going to disagree with itself when Peter says something. He said to try the Spirits. Since Jesus chose him amongst the 12... I am going to believe him over you if your version of the Spirit is different. Why would I not?

So where are we? If Jesus was on a different level and he can be believed where the Apostles and prophets couldn't, where are we when he endorsed them?

We are left with Jude, James, Hebrews, a few books of the OT, and one other guy... Paul.

Didn't Like write a gospel? Was he guided by the spirit when he wrote the Gospel according to Luke? Well, he also wrote Acts. Did the spirit leave him when he wrote that? I think not.... If it did, how often, I wonder, does it leave and come to you? Well, if it does, when should I believe you?

See, Luke testifies of Paul. The most Prominent original Apostle (Peter) leaves the account in ch 15. The rest is about Paul. Now if Luke had the spirit to record the Words of Jesus in his gospel, and if it didn't leave him, what reason would I have not to believe Like when he testifies of Paul's ministry? Why, some of the letters in Acts are in red.... Meaning Jesus said them! Are the letters in red in the gospel more red than in Acts?

Peter called Paul's writings scripture. He put it on the same level as Isaiah, Jonah, Joel and everyone else Jesus quoted, and he was given the Keys... According to Jesus, whom you believe.

In summary, if you believe Jesus told the truth, it is impossible NOT to believe the OT, because he qouted it. It is impossible to say you believe Jesus but not the Gospels because they are the recordings of Jesus. It is impossible to not believe Acts or the Epistles because Jesus endorsed the men to write them.

2 Peter 1:19-21 KJV
We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts: [20] Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. [21] For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

So there is a scripture that says prophecy of old came from the Holy Ghost.

 

[Anthony D'Arienzo]

An important gift perhaps, but the greatest gift...? Certainly not! Did not God give us His Son, Jesus, who is no book?

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved." John 3:16-17

Hello Amadeus,

Keep in mind two things.
1] Jesus is the living word and a Great gift.

2] The scriptures are the word of God revealed to all mankind.

Without the scriptures, humanity does not know about the special person and work of our Lord Jesus Christ

 

[Anthony D'Arienzo]

Not in this thread, but I am aware of how much you passionately agree with his teachings.

That is not the topic being discussed here.

 

[Jane_Doe22]

That is not the topic being discussed here.

Anthony, if you're going to believe the Five Sola's are required to be considered a true Christian, then by definition you're not just holding to scripture only (the Reformation teachers aren't scripture).

To be truly only using scriptures you need to toss all of the following out of the window:
The 5 Solas.
All Reformation teachers.
All teachers outside of scripture.
All creeds.
All traditions defining which books are scripture.
All historical context of those scriptures.
All the Spirit testifying to you.

That's what you would need to do to really be just using scripture. Don't you see how silly that is? It's a GOOD thing to ask for the Spirit to guide us, to use historical understanding, to be aware of various teachers and traditions around ideas, etc.

 

[amadeus]

Hello Amadeus,

Keep in mind two things.
1] Jesus is the living word and a Great gift.

Agreed!

2] The scriptures are the word of God revealed to all mankind.

Not revealed to all! Available to all, but not everyone has "ears to hear" nor "eyes to see".

Without the scriptures, humanity does not know about the special person and work of our Lord Jesus Christ

Without the Holy Spirit, no man is able to understand God's written message! God works with different people differently for even those who are, or are to be, part of the Body of Christ, are to have different functions.

To presume that a person may only know God by means of a written Bible is limiting God in a way the Bible itself does not limit Him. On the contrary, Abraham became God's friend, without insofar as the scriptures indicate having access to any written words whatsoever. If God did that with Abraham, why could He not do it with a man today? Has God changed?

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

I state something, and then you say I need to support it with the bible. Why? Because the bible is God's word that he handed down to humanity as a guide? No, it's not. But you all say it is huh? So I'm going to make it real easy for you to prove your point and ask you where in the bible does it say God gave Christians the bible as a guide for life and that's it? I'm going to put a few refutations for common misquotations below
1. All scripture is God breathed but that verse does not state anything about scriptures existence only being in the bible
2.The end of revelations only applies to the book of revelations, not this culmination you guys concocted.
The only thing God ever sent down was His Spirit. He sent the Spirit to guide Christians, not this culmination of writing (most of which is unreliable anyways). You may say," but it's all reliable." I'm going to ask you why is that? The only reason to believe something is true is God, so in order for the writings of a person to be held as scripture that person needs to say what God says. None of the apostles fit the bill, so you can't go believing what they say to be true because they said it. The words of Jesus are different as he was wholly in line with God, but since the apostles weren't, you can't go believing what they said just because they said it. This goes for all the other writers too. Anyways, I don't expect anyone to understand this. However, consider this a call to those who do.

If you wish to go by your own opinions, go ahead. Just don't expect the rest of humanity to worship you and your opinions. I don't worry about someone who cares that little about God. The fact you care so little about his word shows how you care so little about God. So the one thing that I keep asking myself is," why did you expect us to agree with your opinions since you care that little about God. Did you really expect us to fall on our knees and worship you and your opinions, because you care that little of God's word and more about your ego. If you don't care about being a christian why are you posting on a Christian forum.

 

[Anthony D'Arienzo]

Anthony, if you're going to believe the Five Sola's are required to be considered a true Christian, then by definition you're not just holding to scripture only (the Reformation teachers aren't scripture).

To be truly only using scriptures you need to toss all of the following out of the window:
The 5 Solas.
All Reformation teachers.
All teachers outside of scripture.
All creeds.
All traditions defining which books are scripture.
All historical context of those scriptures.
All the Spirit testifying to you.

That's what you would need to do to really be just using scripture. Don't you see how silly that is? It's a GOOD thing to ask for the Spirit to guide us, to use historical understanding, to be aware of various teachers and traditions around ideas, etc.

The Spirit is given to quicken us to welcome God and his word.
Without scripture we do not know the true God.

 

[Anthony D'Arienzo]

Agreed!

Not revealed to all! Available to all, but not everyone has "ears to hear" nor "eyes to see".


Without the Holy Spirit, no man is able to understand God's written message! God works with different people differently for even those who are, or are to be, part of the Body of Christ, are to have different functions.

To presume that a person may only know God by means of a written Bible is limiting God in a way the Bible itself does not limit Him. On the contrary, Abraham became God's friend, without insofar as the scriptures indicate having access to any written words whatsoever. If God did that with Abraham, why could He not do it with a man today? Has changed?

There was a time when God spoke audible words to men.
That no longer takes place. God has sealed his word.
No Joseph Smith, no Mohammed, No Virgin Mary.

 

[Jane_Doe22]

The Spirit is given to quicken us to welcome God and his word.
Without scripture we do not know the true God.

Yes.
We should never try to read scripture as just scripture alone, but rather always invite the Spirit to testify of Truth & enlighten our understanding.

 

[kcnalp]

2 Tim 3 All Scripture is God breathed ...

Amen Jesus!

 

[amadeus]

There was a time when God spoke audible words to men.
That no longer takes place. God has sealed his word.
No Joseph Smith, no Mohammed, No Virgin Mary.

The Word of God sealed? You are speaking about Jesus. Is He bound unable to speak or to act? When did this happen and who or what had the power or the will to do this and for what reason?

"And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God." Rev 19:13

Then how is it that He calls anyone at all to Him anymore if not by His Words? How it is that any man of God today speaks the Word of God? Is not the Word of God abiding in those who overcome evil?

"I have written unto you, fathers, because ye have known him that is from the beginning. I have written unto you, young men, because ye are strong, and the ​

Word of ​

God abideth in you, and ye have overcome the wicked one." I John 2:14​

Is not the Word of God still increasing and multiplying?

"And the word of God increased; and the number of the disciples multiplied in Jerusalem greatly; and a great company of the priests were obedient to the faith." Acts 6:7

"But the word of God grew and multiplied." Acts 12:24

Is the Word of God now bound because you have so decided?

"Wherein I suffer trouble, as an evil doer, even unto bonds; but the word of God is not bound." II Tim 2:9

And the Word of God now have no power? Is the Word of God now dead?

Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever." I Peter 1:23

What limitation is their to the increase and multiplication of the Word of God? What is the end of the Word of God?

As to the Word of God being audible, what is it when you speak the Word of God with your mouth as God gives His Word to speak? Do you not speak the Word? Does no one on this forum ever speak the Word of God? Does no preacher or teacher or minister or pastor or evangelist of the Gospel ever speak the Word of God with his physical mouth?

"How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world." Rom 10:14-18

Have you then decided that God no longer speaks through those whom He has called? Have you decided that not one them called by Him to preach ever speaks the Word of God? Have you decided that no one anymore is able to hear the Word of God so that faith may come to them?

I did not say the words would necessarily be audible, but in any case is God so limited? Has He limited the time and manner in which He communicates with people?

Who are His sheep? Do they not hear His voice? Is what they hear, not the Word of God?

"To him the porter openeth; and the sheep hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out." John 10:3

"My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand." John 10:27-28

"And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd." John 10:16

"And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.​

Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:" Matt 25:33-34​

​

Why would you @Anthony D'Arienzo join the natural children of Israel in limiting the Holy One of Israel? Do you have that kind of power or authority or knowledge?​

​

"Yea, they turned back and tempted God, and limited the Holy One of Israel." Psalm 78:41​

 

[DNB]

so while i do agree with your point--even though Rhema is not Pneuma, but whatever--seems to me that it is a different one from the op? Although i guess you have to absorb his intent, read between the lines a little more maybe. Bc i would def run, run like the wind, from anyone telling me i had to listen to them vis the Bible.

Dunning-Kruger informs us that the more insistent a person is the less likely they are to be accurate right

Well, that's true. I am inferring from his OP, what he has been incessantly stating throughout this forum, ...the lack of credence that he ascribes to the Bible, as a divinely inspired canon.
And yes, as you stated here, and earlier, if one wants to discredit their endowment of the Spirit, keep insisting that you have it.

 

[DNB]

God never has just taught via a book.
A person doesn't just need to learn about Him via a book.

The thing is, if His Word was left to the discretion of those who claim to have His Spirit, then I prefer the Book (major understatement).
Meaning, the more a person tells me of their intimacy with God and their endowment of the Spirit, the less I take them seriously, on any level. This is why the Book is so important. No subjectivity (outside of interpretation), no charlatans, deluded or self-righteous people claiming to have received a revelation that we all must abide by. This is why we say Sola Scriptura.

 

[Jane_Doe22]

The thing is, if His Word was left to the discretion of those who claim to have His Spirit, then I prefer the Book (major understatement).
Meaning, the more a person tells me of their intimacy with God and their endowment of the Spirit, the less I take them seriously, on any level. This is why the Book is so important. No subjectivity (outside of interpretation), no charlatans, deluded or self-righteous people claiming to have received a revelation that we all must abide by. This is why we say Sola Scriptura.

Even Sola Scirptura is a teaching not directly found in the Bible

My point was not to blindly follow men whom claims t have spiritual experiences (NO WAY!!!). But rather to have the Spirit testify to each person individually-- do *you* know for *yourself*? To learn and be proactive with their discipleship of Him. Putting Him above all else.

 

[bbyrd009]

the lack of credence that he ascribes to the Bible, as a divinely inspired canon.

yeh, imo its hard to distinguish a genuine lack of credence from a backlash to Bible-thumpers combined with a little ignorance, though.
You dont read the Bible, the Bible reads you
prolly

anyone reading too literally and thus rejecting on evidential grounds i would class right in there with Believers tbh, just of a diff belief. I say this bc most "believers" cant hardly stand Scripture seems to me, least when i am Quoting It lol

 

[kcnalp]

There was a time when God spoke audible words to men.
That no longer takes place.

How do you KNOW that? You don't.

 

[Brakelite]

I guess people have different nuanced understanding of what Sola scriptura means. For me, it means two things. First, it is the final authority on doctrine. Anything presented by man that contradicts scripture, should be cast aside.
That said however, we should not limit God to the scriptures in communicating with man and making Himself known. The Bible itself tells us that God can and does speak through dreams, visions, and even nature, and if those who may never have read scripture or heard the word of God preached or taught, live and love according to their conscience, having compassion on others and in their hearts leaning towards godliness, there is all eternity remaining for them to learn theology and the whys and wherefores of how they came to be in the kingdom. Yes, scripture has the final say over all ecclesiastical councils, Popes, pastors and even televangelists. But let us not limit a God who wants all men saved and who is doing all He can to bring all men to repentance... He is not a God who is deliberately making it as difficult as possible to be saved by using fine print and meticulous forms and ceremonies that one must adhere to.
There have been literally millions throughout history who have had no access to scripture. Do we condemn them to eternal damnation because they were born in the wrong place and the wrong time? Or do we believe God is just, and exercises compassion and mercy through doing good and reaching out to lost souls, using missionaries with Bibles when available, but whatever other means He has at His disposal otherwise.

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

I state something, and then you say I need to support it with the bible. Why? Because the bible is God's word that he handed down to humanity as a guide? No, it's not. But you all say it is huh? So I'm going to make it real easy for you to prove your point and ask you where in the bible does it say God gave Christians the bible as a guide for life and that's it? I'm going to put a few refutations for common misquotations below
1. All scripture is God breathed but that verse does not state anything about scriptures existence only being in the bible
2.The end of revelations only applies to the book of revelations, not this culmination you guys concocted.
The only thing God ever sent down was His Spirit. He sent the Spirit to guide Christians, not this culmination of writing (most of which is unreliable anyways). You may say," but it's all reliable." I'm going to ask you why is that? The only reason to believe something is true is God, so in order for the writings of a person to be held as scripture that person needs to say what God says. None of the apostles fit the bill, so you can't go believing what they say to be true because they said it. The words of Jesus are different as he was wholly in line with God, but since the apostles weren't, you can't go believing what they said just because they said it. This goes for all the other writers too. Anyways, I don't expect anyone to understand this. However, consider this a call to those who do.

You say we can't rely on the Apostles, but what, we can rely on you? You really think you're better than any human on the planet? I'm going to tell you this though, if I can't rely on the Apostles, I'm certainly not going to rely on you. I do have a question for you though, where did you get the information that the only thing God sent was his Holy Spirit. If you say from a book other than the Bible I'm not going to rely on that book if I shouldn't be relying on the Bible. If you say God Holy Spirit told you that, prove it! However understand, If I can't rely on what the Apostles say in the Bible I'm not going to rely on what you say cause you're not better than the Apostles. So if I can't rely on what they say, I'm certainly not going to rely on what you or any other person on the planet has to say.

 

[DNB]

Even Sola Scirptura is a teaching not directly found in the Bible

My point was not to blindly follow men whom claims t have spiritual experiences (NO WAY!!!). But rather to have the Spirit testify to each person individually-- do *you* know for *yourself*? To learn and be proactive with their discipleship of Him. Putting Him above all else.

OK, not sure if I'm following you entirely, as to where you place Scripture as far as its precedence goes?
Like I keep saying, you would not have even known the God has offered the Holy Spirit, and this, only to believers, had the Scriptures not proclaimed it. So, between being aware of such an empowerment, and the criteria for believing, both are derived solely from the Bible. You have put the cart before the horse.
I am doing nothing more than giving credit where due, and appreciating what a legacy, with an indispensable significance, that God has left for us to attain salvation.
Anyhow, JD22, best of luck attaining wisdom and edification! Thanks for the discussion.

 

[bbyrd009]

How do you KNOW that? You don't.

again with the literal over the spiritual, yeh