Who did Jesus Die a Ransom for?

[Johann]

I have also addressed the word "proskyneō " and what it means.

Genesis 1:1-2 (NASB), “In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. 2 The earth was formless and void, and darkness was over the surface of the deep and the Spirit of God was moving over the surface of the waters.”
NWT: “In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. 2 Now the earth was formless and desolate, and there was darkness upon the surface of the watery deep, and God’s active force was moving about over the surface of the waters.

The Watchtower Bible and Tract Society deny that the Holy Spirit is alive, the third person of the Trinity.

Therefore, they have changed the correct translation of “…the Spirit of God was moving over the surface of the waters,” to say “…and God’s active force was moving over the surface of the waters.”

The Holy Spirit is not God’s active force. The Holy Spirit speaks. An active force does not speak.

Acts 8:29, “Then the Spirit said to Philip, “Go up and join this chariot.”
Acts 13:2, “While they were ministering to the Lord and fasting, the Holy Spirit said, “Set apart for Me Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I have called them.”
Zechariah 12:10 (NASB), “And I [God] will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and supplication. They will look on me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son.”
NWT: “I will pour out on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the spirit of favor and supplication, and they will look to the one whom they pierced, and they will wail over him as they would wail over an only son; and they will grieve bitterly over him as they would grieve over a firstborn son.

The Jehovah’s Witnesses change the word “me” to “the one” so that it says in their Bible, “…they will look upon the one whom they have pierced…” Since the Jehovah’s Witnesses deny that Jesus is God in flesh, then Zech. 12:10 would present obvious problems, so they changed it.

John 1:1 (NASB), “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.”
NWT: “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god.”

The Watchtower mistranslates the verse as “a god.”
Again, because the Jehovah’s Witnesses deny God in flesh for the Scriptures (John 1:1, 14; Col. 2:9), they must change the Bible to make it agree with their theology. The Jehovah’s Witness version in the New World Translation says, “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god.”
Notice that “a god” is their so-called translation. But this is problematic since it would imply polytheism. I asked Jehovah’s Witnesses if they believe Jesus was a god. When they say yes, then I bring up the error of their polytheism.


John 14:10 (NASB), “Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father is in Me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on My own initiative, but the Father abiding in Me does His works.”


NWT: “Do you not believe that I am in union with the Father and the Father is in union with me? The things I say to you I do not speak of my own originality, but the Father who remains in union with me is doing his works.”

This is another obvious alteration in the New World Translation. In their attempt to avoid the deity of Christ, they scour the Bible and alter any verses that would suggest that Jesus is divine.

Colossians 1:15-17 (NASB), “He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. 16 For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through Him and for Him. 17 He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.”

NWT: “He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation; 16 because by means of him all other things were created in the heavens and on the earth, the things visible and the things invisible, whether they are thrones or lordships or governments or authorities. All other things have been created through him and for him. 17 Also, he is before all other things, and by means of him all other things were made to exist.”

The word “other” is inserted four times in the NWT. It is not in the original Greek, nor is it implied.

This is a section where Jesus is described as being the creator of all things. Since the Jehovah’s Witness organization believes that Jesus is created, they have inserted the word “other” to show that Jesus was before all “other” things that were created, implying that He is also created.


There are two Greek words for “other”: heteros, and allos. The first means another of a different kind, and the second means another of the same kind. Neither is used at all in this section of scripture. The Jehovah’s Witnesses have changed the Bible to make it fit their aberrant theology.

You really want to go that route with me?
Johann.

 

[Johann]

So why is it not addressed Johann....show us a refutation using the Interlinear.....please show where you believe I am not telling the truth.

Always four moves ahead-just read my posts-
Colossians 1:15-17 (NASB), “He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. 16 For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through Him and for Him. 17 He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.”
NWT: “He is the image of the invisible God,m the firstborn of all creation; 16 because by means of him all other things were created in the heavens and on the earth, the things visible and the things invisible, whether they are thrones or lordships or governments or authorities. All other things have been created through him and for him. 17 Also, he is before all other things, and by means of him all other things were made to exist.”

The word “other” is inserted four times in the NWT. It is not in the original Greek, nor is it implied.
This is a section where Jesus is described as being the creator of all things. Since the Jehovah’s Witness organization believes that Jesus is created, they have inserted the word “other” to show that Jesus was before all “other” things that were created, implying that He is also created.
There are two Greek words for “other”: heteros, and allos. The first means another of a different kind, and the second means another of the same kind. Neither is used at all in this section of scripture. The Jehovah’s Witnesses have changed the Bible to make it fit their aberrant theology.
Hebrews 1:6 (NASB), “And when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says, ‘and let all the angels of God worship him.’”

NWT: “But when he again brings his Firstborn into the inhabited earth, he says: ‘And let all of God’s angels do obeisance to him.’”
In this verse, they translate the Greek word for worship, proskuneo, as “obeisance.” Obeisance is a word that means to honor, show respect, even bow down before someone. Since Jesus, to them, is created, then he cannot be worshiped. They have also done this in other verses concerning Jesus, i.e., Matt. 2:2,11; 14:33; 28:9.
See the articles Heb. 1:6, "Let the angels do obeisance to him." and The New World Translation and "Proskuneo" (worship)
Hebrews 1:8 (NASB), “But of the Son He says, ‘Your throne, O God, is forever and ever, and the righteous scepter is the scepter of his kingdom.'”
NWT: “But about the Son, he says: ‘God is your throne forever and ever, and the scepter of your Kingdom is the scepter of uprightness.'”
This is a verse where God the Father is calling Jesus God: “But about the Son he says, ‘Your throne, O God, will last forever and ever, and righteousness will be the scepter of your kingdom.'”

Since the Jehovah’s Witnesses don’t agree with that, they have changed the Bible, yet again, to agree with their theology.

They have translated the verse as “…God is your throne…” The problem with the Jehovah’s Witness translation is that this verse is a quote from Psalm 45:6 which, from the Hebrew, can only be translated as “…Your throne, O God, will last forever and ever; a scepter of justice will be the scepter of your kingdom.” To justify their New Testament translation they actually changed the OT verse to agree with their theology, too!

Conclusion on the New World Translation
The NWT translation is a bad translation. It has changed the text to suit its own theological bias in many places. It misrepresents the person and work of Christ as well as the personhood of the Holy Spirit. The New World translation should be avoided.

Problematic-especially when the Ruach HaKodesh is reduced to a "mere active force"
Johann.

 

[Johann]

The Bible interprets itself. Contextual evidence is the strongest kind of evidence and should be considered first. Then other, or supportive, evidence helps to back up or refute a conclusion. “In a beginning” is contextual evidence, for only God had no beginning. Hence “the Word” cannot refer to God, for the Logos had a beginning. And the grammatical argument also contradicts

So who is Jesus to you? A "created being"-not worthy to receive worship? -and that the Holy Spirit/Ruach HaKodesh a "mere force?"
Should be interesting
May the "force" be with you.
Seriously-the Mods should not lock threads on this topic re the Deity of Christ since this very topic expose the wheat from the chaff.
Don't attempt to "sell" that which you know nothing about.

Thank God for modern technology-and many are too lazy to use this for the doxa of our Lord Christ Jesus.

Johann.

 

[Aunty Jane]

You really want to go that route with me?

As I have stated Johann….you can believe whatever you like about Jehovah’s Witnesses and their Bible translation. No Brownie points for guessing where all that “evidence” came from….I could addresss all the points but it would only be rehashing what has already been discussed. If you are content and happy with your beliefs, then go in peace….I really have nothing more to add. You have made your choice and it will stand. We will all or stand or fall by what we accept as truth, as we face the same judge.
Just remember what they said and believed about Jesus and his disciples…..enough to want to murder their own Messiah, and persecute his followers as apostates….and remember too, that not a soul believed Noah….it didn’t make them wrong though, did it?

I am “shaking the dust off”…..and moving on. I wish you well….

 

[Johann]

I am “shaking the dust off”…..and moving on. I wish you well….

Before you go-I pray you come to know the true Jesus.

Col_1:16 For by him [Jesus] were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
Col_1:17 And he is before all things,[Jesus-ta panta-NOT OTHER] and by him all things consist.

Col 1:17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

Preexistence of Christ Jesus clearly implied and He is NOT Michael.

Joh 10:30 I and my Father are one. WE are one

Joh 10:30 εγω και ο πατηρ εν εσμεν

Transliteration: esmen
Morphology: V-PIA-1P
Verb - Present Indicative Active - 1st Person Plural
Strong's no.: G1510 (εἰμί)
Meaning: To be, exist.

Kingdom Interlinear-

ἐγὼI καὶand ὁthe πατὴρFather ἕνone (thing) ἐσμεν.we are-Two persons-so why insist that Jesus is a created being when your own interlinear teach you Jesus is the creator of ta panta-not "other"-and as the Creator of all things-before all things-He MUST be God?


---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Your "version"

15 He is the image of the invisible God,o the firstborn of all creation;p 16 because by means of him all other things were created in the heavens and on the earth, the things visible and the things invisible,q whether they are thrones or lordships or governments or authorities. All other things have been created through himr and for him. 17 Also, he is before all other things,s and by means of him all other things were made to exist,

--butchering the Scriptures-since in Col 1:16 the word "other" is "inserted" to deny to deity of our great God and Savior Christ Jesus.

οτι εν αυτω εκτισθη τα παντα τα εν τοις ουρανοις και τα επι της γης τα ορατα και τα αορατα ειτε θρονοι ειτε κυριοτητες ειτε αρχαι ειτε εξουσιαι τα παντα δι αυτου και εις αυτον εκτισται

ἐστιν πρὸ πάντων pantōn-And Jesus is BEFORE all things.

Your Kingdom Interlinear

ἐνin αὐτῷhim ἐκτίσθηit was created τὰthe πάνταall (things) ἐνin τοῖςthe οὐρανοῖςheavens καὶand ἐπὶupon τῆςthe γῆς,earth, τὰthe (things) ὁρατὰvisible καὶand τὰthe (things) ἀόρατα,invisible, εἴτεwhether θρόνοιthrones εἴτεor κυριότητεςlordships εἴτεor ἀρχαὶgovernments εἴτεor ἐξουσίαι·authorities; τὰthe πάνταall (things) δι’through αὐτοῦhim καὶand εἰςinto αὐτὸνhim ἔκτισται·it has been created; 17 καὶand αὐτὸςhe ἔστινis πρὸbefore πάντωνall (things) καὶand τὰthe πάνταall (things) ἐνin αὐτῷhim συνέστηκεν,it has stood together

Go in peace

Johann.

 

[Keturah]

Genesis 1:1-2 (NASB), “In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. 2 The earth was formless and void, and darkness was over the surface of the deep and the Spirit of God was moving over the surface of the waters.”
NWT: “In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. 2 Now the earth was formless and desolate, and there was darkness upon the surface of the watery deep, and God’s active force was moving about over the surface of the waters.

The Watchtower Bible and Tract Society deny that the Holy Spirit is alive, the third person of the Trinity.

Therefore, they have changed the correct translation of “…the Spirit of God was moving over the surface of the waters,” to say “…and God’s active force was moving over the surface of the waters.”

The Holy Spirit is not God’s active force. The Holy Spirit speaks. An active force does not speak.

Acts 8:29, “Then the Spirit said to Philip, “Go up and join this chariot.”
Acts 13:2, “While they were ministering to the Lord and fasting, the Holy Spirit said, “Set apart for Me Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I have called them.”
Zechariah 12:10 (NASB), “And I [God] will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and supplication. They will look on me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son.”
NWT: “I will pour out on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the spirit of favor and supplication, and they will look to the one whom they pierced, and they will wail over him as they would wail over an only son; and they will grieve bitterly over him as they would grieve over a firstborn son.

The Jehovah’s Witnesses change the word “me” to “the one” so that it says in their Bible, “…they will look upon the one whom they have pierced…” Since the Jehovah’s Witnesses deny that Jesus is God in flesh, then Zech. 12:10 would present obvious problems, so they changed it.

John 1:1 (NASB), “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.”
NWT: “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god.”

The Watchtower mistranslates the verse as “a god.”
Again, because the Jehovah’s Witnesses deny God in flesh for the Scriptures (John 1:1, 14; Col. 2:9), they must change the Bible to make it agree with their theology. The Jehovah’s Witness version in the New World Translation says, “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god.”
Notice that “a god” is their so-called translation. But this is problematic since it would imply polytheism. I asked Jehovah’s Witnesses if they believe Jesus was a god. When they say yes, then I bring up the error of their polytheism.


John 14:10 (NASB), “Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father is in Me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on My own initiative, but the Father abiding in Me does His works.”


NWT: “Do you not believe that I am in union with the Father and the Father is in union with me? The things I say to you I do not speak of my own originality, but the Father who remains in union with me is doing his works.”

This is another obvious alteration in the New World Translation. In their attempt to avoid the deity of Christ, they scour the Bible and alter any verses that would suggest that Jesus is divine.

Colossians 1:15-17 (NASB), “He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. 16 For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through Him and for Him. 17 He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.”

NWT: “He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation; 16 because by means of him all other things were created in the heavens and on the earth, the things visible and the things invisible, whether they are thrones or lordships or governments or authorities. All other things have been created through him and for him. 17 Also, he is before all other things, and by means of him all other things were made to exist.”

The word “other” is inserted four times in the NWT. It is not in the original Greek, nor is it implied.

This is a section where Jesus is described as being the creator of all things. Since the Jehovah’s Witness organization believes that Jesus is created, they have inserted the word “other” to show that Jesus was before all “other” things that were created, implying that He is also created.


There are two Greek words for “other”: heteros, and allos. The first means another of a different kind, and the second means another of the same kind. Neither is used at all in this section of scripture. The Jehovah’s Witnesses have changed the Bible to make it fit their aberrant theology.

You really want to go that route with me?
Johann.

Blessings on your studies & in your walk with him.
Thank you!

 

[Johann]

Blessings on your studies & in your walk with him.
Thank you!

Shalom to you and precious family @Keturah and pray for me not to become puffed up, and prideful.
Yours-
Johann.

 

[Keturah]

Shalom to you and precious family @Keturah and pray for me not to become puffed up, and prideful.
Yours-
Johann.

Praying always for the brethren to be instant in season of the HOPE we have in Christ.

Stomp them grapes & the little foxes brother for it is the little foxes that SPOIL THE VINE!

 

[RR144]

So who is Jesus to you? A "created being"-not worthy to receive worship? -and that the Holy Spirit/Ruach HaKodesh a "mere force?"
Should be interesting
May the "force" be with you.

I differ with my JW friends about the role of Jesus in God's Plan of Salvation.

I DO believe Jesus is a created being, the FIRST and ONLY direct creation of YHWH, as Colossians tells us, EVERYTHING was created by The WORD aka Jesus. YHWH told Him what He wanted, and Jesus created it. Space, time, planets, angelic beings and humans. I believe as the WORD of God, it was Jesus who dealt with mankind, it was Jesus who spoke to Adam, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and others. Speaking for God.

I believe as the scriptures tell is, Jesus is worthy of our worship, the disciples worshipped him.

Since His resurrection, Jesus is like His maker. Immortal.

Seriously-the Mods should not lock threads on this topic re the Deity of Christ since this very topic expose the wheat from the chaff.
Don't attempt to "sell" that which you know nothing about.

I agree.

Thank God for modern technology-and many are too lazy to use this for the doxa of our Lord Christ Jesus.

Johann.

Sharing videos about the JW / Watchtower doesn't affect me, as I'm not affiliated with them.

 

[Johann]

I DO believe Jesus is a created being, the FIRST and ONLY direct creation of YHWH, as Colossians tells us, EVERYTHING was created by The WORD aka Jesus. YHWH told Him what He wanted, and Jesus created it.

This is wrong-what is the word "firstborn?"

it was Jesus who spoke to Adam, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and others. Speaking for Go.

If you hold to the preexistence of Christ-how can the Creator be a created being?
-especially if Jesus was BEFORE ta panta?

 

[Johann]

Sharing videos about the JW / Watchtower doesn't affect me, as I'm not affiliated with them.

You do, however, believe as they do-that Jesus was the first "created being?"
Johann.

 

[Johann]

Since His resurrection, Jesus is like His maker. Immortal.

But not before?
Johann.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Before you go-I pray you come to know the true Jesus.

Save your prayers Johann....the Bible tells me who the true Jesus is.

Kingdom Interlinear-

ἐγὼI καὶand ὁthe πατὴρFather ἕνone (thing) ἐσμεν.we are-Two persons-so why insist that Jesus is a created being when your own interlinear teach you Jesus is the creator of ta panta-not "other"-and as the Creator of all things-before all things-He MUST be God?

This actually makes me smile.....as if the word “other” changes what that verse says. Like yourself, if you accept inference as fact in some verses, then we believe that inference in this instance is justified....so do some scholars who do not find that the word “other” is misplaced. What you believe does not change what we believe. What you believe is between you and your God.....I am saying that he is not my God. My God is Yahweh...a singular entity, who shares ‘godship’ with no other. (Exodus 20:3; Isaiah 45:5-6; Luke 4:8)

If the pre-human being who became the man Jesus, was God’s “firstborn” and he is also called “only begotten” (monogenes) that makes his existence “other” than the existence of other spirit beings who are also called “sons of God”. The agent used by his Creator to bring all things into existence, is not included in what he created because he is a different creation to them, being the only direct creation of his Father. He was “only begotten” before he came to earth as a human.

Rev 3:14....
“And to the angel of the church in Laodicea write: ‘The words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of God's creation.” (ESV)

“And to the angel of the church in Laodicea write: These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God” (ASV)

“And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God” (KJV)

“To the angel of the church in Laodicea write:The Amen, the faithful and true Witness, the Beginning of the creation of God, says this” (NASB)

This is Jesus identifying himself as “the beginning of God’s creation”. (Not just our Bible)

It is a direct statement, not implied or suggested......but clearly stated by one who should know. Argue with him.
He is Yahweh’s “firstborn” and “only begotten” son, which is stated many times in the Christian scriptures.
This is a fact that is ignored in favor of a belief that is grafted over ambiguous verses to suggest something Christ never once said.

If you hold to the preexistence of Christ-how can the Creator be a created being?
-especially if Jesus was BEFORE ta panta?

If the pre-human Jesus was the one used by his Father to create or to fashion all creation, then obviously he existed “BEFORE” all that he made. He used the power of God’s spirit (as he did on earth) and the raw materials that his Father brought into existence to create the material universe and all that exists both in the heavenly realm and the material one. It was created “THROUGH” him and “FOR” him.

But this conversation has no value if there is no real acceptance of what the Bible teaches overall.....we will not worship a fake god created by an apostate “church” system. That god did not exist when Christ walked the earth....it took over 300 years of apostasy to establish what is accepted now as a foundational doctrine by the majority in Christendom.

We will all know soon enough if we have put our eggs in the right basket.....because if we have violated the first Commandment and have substituted another god for Yahweh, we will not be forgiven.

You go on believing whatever you wish....our choices are ours to make. All choices have consequences.

 

[RR144]

This is wrong-what is the word "firstborn?"

Colossians 1:15 tells us "he is the firstborn of all creation."

In Genesis we read, "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth," we are to remember that this beginning relates not to the universe, but merely to our planet. Then it was that "the morning stars sang together" and all the angelic sons of God "shouted for joy" – when the Lord laid the foundations of the earth and "made the cloud the garment thereof, and thick darkness its swaddling band." (Job 38:4-11) But a still earlier beginning is mentioned in the Bible; a beginning before the creation of those angelic sons of God; as we read: "In the beginning was the Word [Logos], and the Logos was with the God and the Logos was a God: the same was in the beginning with the God. All things were made by him, and without him was not anything made that was made." (John 1:1-3) Since Jehovah himself is from everlasting to everlasting, he had no beginning: the "Only Begotten" has the high distinction above all others of being "The beginning of the creation of God" – "first-born of every creature." (Rev. 3:14; Col. 1:15) Other beginnings came in turn as the various angelic orders were one by one created; and these beginnings were in the past, so that their hosts could shout for joy when our earth's creations, related in Genesis, had their beginning.

If you hold to the preexistence of Christ-how can the Creator be a created being?
-especially if Jesus was BEFORE ta panta?

Because the Almighty God Jehovah / Yahweh (whichever you prefer created him). As Colossians 1:16 tells us: "

"For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him."​

You do, however, believe as they do-that Jesus was the first "created being?"

Yes, I do.

But not before?

No, not before.

 

[Aunty Jane]

In Genesis we read, "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth," we are to remember that this beginning relates not to the universe, but merely to our planet.

Really? You don't think that the Universe was created in one massive explosion of creative power?....(jokingly called "the big bang").....but science believes that it happened that way....but without the need for a Creator of course.

Remembering that the Bible was written for earth dwellers, the creation account simply says "the heavens and the earth" to include our planet in that massive explosion of God's creativity. We are part of those heavens. What Genesis describes is God's PREPARATION of this planet for habitation from a desolate watery waste, to a planet teeming with life and all that sustains it.

Then it was that "the morning stars sang together" and all the angelic sons of God "shouted for joy" – when the Lord laid the foundations of the earth and "made the cloud the garment thereof, and thick darkness its swaddling band." (Job 38:4-11)

The spirit realm and all who inhabit it, existed long before the material realm. The angels could not be cheering if they did not exist.
And since Jesus brought every one of them into existence, he was created before they were. (Col 1:16)

But a still earlier beginning is mentioned in the Bible; a beginning before the creation of those angelic sons of God; as we read: "In the beginning was the Word [Logos], and the Logos was with the God and the Logos was a God: the same was in the beginning with the God. All things were made by him, and without him was not anything made that was made." (John 1:1-3)

In the Greek we see something interesting in verse 3 there as translated by the NASB....
All G3956 things G3956 came G1096 into G1096 being G1096 through G1223 Him, and apart G5565 from Him not G3761 even G3761 one G1520 thing G1520 came G1096 into G1096 being G1096 that has come G1096 into G1096 being G1096.

The Greek word used here is "ginomai" and it is translated in various ways in the Greek scriptures....

1. "to become, i.e. to come into existence, begin to be, receive being
2. to become, i.e. to come to pass, happen
   
   
   1. of events
3. to arise, appear in history, come upon the stage
   
   
   1. of men appearing in public
4. to be made, finished
   
   
   1. of miracles, to be performed, wrought
5. to become, be made".

It has a variety of usages....but it never means "created".

Here are some of its translations....
Mat 1:22
"Now all this took G1096 place G1096 so that what was spoken by the Lord through the prophet would be fulfilled".

Mat 4:3
"And the tempter came and said to Him, “If You are the Son of God, command that these stones become G1096 bread.”

Mat 5:18
“For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke of a letter shall pass from the Law, until all is accomplished G1096!

Mat 6:10
"Your kingdom come.
Your will be done G1096,
On earth as it is in heaven."

Mat 6:16
“Now whenever you fast, do not make G1096 a gloomy face as the hypocrites do,for they distort their faces so that they will be noticed by people when they are fasting. Truly I say to you, they have their reward in full."

Mat 8:16
"Now when evening came G1096, they brought to Him many who were demon-possessed; and He cast out the spirits with a word, and healed all who were ill."

So John 1:3 is not confirming Jesus as a "Creator" but more like one who brought things about .....who fabricated things from existing materials. This is what is described in the Bible.

Since Jehovah himself is from everlasting to everlasting, he had no beginning: the "Only Begotten" has the high distinction above all others of being "The beginning of the creation of God" – "first-born of every creature." (Rev. 3:14; Col. 1:15) Other beginnings came in turn as the various angelic orders were one by one created; and these beginnings were in the past, so that their hosts could shout for joy when our earth's creations, related in Genesis, had their beginning.

Yes, the pre-human Jesus was part of the "us" and "our" in Genesis 1:26. These are two completely separate beings, but only one is Yahweh, the Creator.

 

[Johann]

So John 1:3 is not confirming Jesus as a "Creator" but more like one who brought things about .....who fabricated things from existing materials. This is what is described in the Bible.

Anything and everything to discredit Jesus's Deity.


Genesis 1:1 says that “God created the heavens and the earth.” Then, Colossians 1:16 gives the added detail that God created “all things” through Jesus Christ. The plain teaching of Scripture, therefore, is that Jesus is the Creator of the universe.
By Him and for Him (δι' αὐτοῦ καὶ εἰς αὐτὸν)
Rev., better, through Him and unto Him. See on Rom_11:36. Compare in Him at the beginning of the verse. There Christ was represented as the conditional cause of all things.

All things came to pass within the sphere of His personality and as dependent upon it.

Here He appears as the mediating cause; through Him, as 1Co_8:6. Unto Him. All things, as they had their beginning in Him, tend to Him as their consummation, to depend on and serve Him. Compare Rev_22:13; and Heb_2:10; “for whose sake (δι' ὃν) and through whose agency (δι' οὗ) are all things”

Rev., “for whom and through whom.” See also Eph_1:10, Eph_1:23; Eph_4:10; Php_2:9-11; 1Co_15:28.

The false teachers maintained that the universe proceeded from God indirectly, through a succession of emanations. Christ, at best, was only one of these. As such, the universe could not find its consummation in Him.

1:15-20 This wonderful poetic passage may reflect an early church hymn or creed. It deals with (1) the cosmic lordship of Jesus and (2) His redemptive acts. The same dual aspect is seen in Heb. 1:2-3. It reflects several Gnostic terms, "firstborn," "fullness," and concepts like the angelic levels (i.e. aeons) of Col. 1:16, and Jesus' true humanity and death in Col. 1:20.

Notice the term "all" is used seven times (cf. Col. 1:15,16 [twice],17 [twice],18,20). Jesus' ministry is inclusive, all that is, is from Him.

1. by Him all things were created

2. all things have been created through Him

3. He is before all things

4. in Him all things hold together

5. He himself will come to have first place in every thing

6. all the fullness to dwell in Him

7. through Him to reconcile all things to Himself (the pronoun "Himself" probably relates to the Father)

Notice how often the pronoun "Him" is presented with different prepositions.

1. "in Him," Col. 1:16,17,19

2. "through Him," Col. 1:16,20

3. "unto/into Him," Col. 1:16,20 (notice this same thing in Eph. 1:3-14)



1:15 "He is the image of the invisible God" The same word (eikōn) is used of Jesus in Col. 3:10 and 2 Cor. 4:4. A similar theological expression occurs in John 1:18; 14:9; Phil. 2:6; Heb. 1:3. The Hebrews 1:3 passage has the stronger Greek term (charakter, which means an exact representation, cf. Gen. 1:26-27; 5:1; 9:6; 1 Cor. 11:7; James 3:9). To see Jesus is to see God! The invisible God has become visible! Deity has become a man (cf. John 14:9).

Is Jesus the Creator God?

Truly, the identity of Christ is of utmost importance. And yet, in today’s culture there are people teaching that Jesus was a created being.

answersingenesis.org

"In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways, but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. The Son is the radiance of God's glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven." Hebrews 1:1-3 NIV

The next references make it plain that Christ didn’t merely have a passing role in creation but was fully responsible for making and fashioning the entire created realm:

"But about the Son he [the Father] says, ‘Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever, and righteousness will be the scepter of your kingdom. You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness… In the beginning, O Lord [Jesus], you laid the foundations of the earth, and the heavens are the work of your hands. They will perish, but you remain; they will all wear out like a garment. You will roll them up like a robe; like a garment they will be changed. But you remain the same, and your years will never end.’" Hebrews 1:8, 10-12 NIV

Amazingly, the NT author has the Father praising his Son for being the Lord who personally created (and who is also actively sustaining) the heavens and the earth, and does so by quoting a Psalm which speaks of Yahweh’s work in creating the cosmos:

In the beginning You, O Lord, you laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the work of Your hands. They will perish, but you remain; and they all shall grow old like a garment; and as a vesture shall You fold them and they shall be changed. But You are the same, and Your years shall not fail. Psalm 102:25-27 Septuagint (LXX) (Source)

By attributing this particular Psalm to the Son’s role in creation the writer has pretty much identified Jesus as Yahweh, the God who created the entire universe!

J.

 

[Johann]

Colossians 1:15 tells us "he is the firstborn of all creation."

In what SENSE was Jesus the FIRSTBORN?


"the firstborn of all creation" This was an OT metaphor for Jesus' unique and exalted position.

1. the rabbis said it meant preeminence (cf. Exod. 4:22)

2. in the OT it was used for the eldest son as heir and manager of the family

3. in Ps. 89:27 it was used in a Messianic sense

4. in Pro. 8:22 it referred to Wisdom as God's first creation and agent of creation. In context options #1 and #2 combined seem best

This phrase is not to be understood as Jesus being the first creation (#4).

This would have played into the hands of the Gnostic teachers, who taught that Jesus was the highest angelic level next to the high god. It must be interpreted in its Jewish OT setting. Jesus was deity's unique son (cf. John 1:18; 3:16,18; 1 John 4:9), yet Jesus was always Deity (cf. Col. 1:17; John 1:1; 5:18; 10:30; 14:9; 20:28). He became a human in time, at Bethlehem, so that fallen mankind could comprehend and understand Deity (cf. John 1:14,18).

The first born of every creature (πρωτότοκος πασῆς κτίσεως)
Rev., the first-born of all creation. For first-born, see on Rev_1:5; for creation, see on 2Co_5:17. As image points to revelation, so first-born points to eternal preexistence.

Even the Rev. is a little ambiguous, for we must carefully avoid any suggestion that Christ was the first of created things, which is contradicted by the following words: in Him were all things created.

The true sense is, born before the creation. Compare before all things, Col_1:17.

This fact of priority implies sovereignty. He is exalted above all thrones, etc., and all things are unto (εἰς) Him, as they are elsewhere declared to be unto God. Compare Psa_89:27; Heb_1:2.

The Lord Jesus the Maker and Ruler of Creation

Do you get it @RR144?
Or was this a waste of my time?

Johann.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Anything and everything to discredit Jesus's Deity.

But what you present is not “anything and everything” to give credit (not proof) of Jesus' Deity....?....which is not clearly stated in any verse of scripture. If you want to worship this composite god, based on the assumptions of those who interpreted their scripture to suggest that Yahweh is not the single entity that his own word presents, (Deuteronomy 6:4) then you are welcome to him....I will serve Yahweh who shares his godship with no other.

As I have said...yelling at people will not make something that is not true, into something that is.

We will all stand before the same judge and he will not yell at anyone...he will just terminate the existence of those who are found supporting the worship of a false god. Whom we choose to worship is up to us, based on “what” we choose to believe....or more importantly “who” we choose to believe.

Good bye for now.

 

[Jack]

But what you present is not “anything and everything” to give credit (not proof) of Jesus' Deity....?....which is not clearly stated in any verse of scripture.

"These things says the Son of God":

Jeremiah 17:10 (NKJV)
10 I, the LORD, search the heart, I test the mind, Even to give every man according to his ways, According to the fruit of his doings. Revelation 2:18-23 (NKJV)
'These things says the Son of God, … 23 I will kill her children with death, and all the churches shall know that I am He who searches the minds and hearts. And I will give to each one of you according to your works.

Jesus is my God!

 

[Johann]

But what you present is not “anything and everything” to give credit (not proof) of Jesus' Deity....?....which is not clearly stated in any verse of scripture. If you want to worship this composite god, based on the assumptions of those who interpreted their scripture to suggest that Yahweh is not the single entity that his own word presents, (Deuteronomy 6:4) then you are welcome to him....I will serve Yahweh who shares his godship with no other.

I have given plenty proof-from Scriptures re the Deity of Christ Jesus-clearly stated.
If you don't have eyes to see-there's nothing I can do to convince you-that is for the Holy Spirit to convict you.

As I have said...yelling at people will not make something that is not true, into something that is.

No yelling from my side-proclaiming the gospel of Christ-not Johann.

We will all stand before the same judge and he will not yell at anyone...he will just terminate the existence of those who are found supporting the worship of a false god. Whom we choose to worship is up to us, based on “what” we choose to believe....or more importantly “who” we choose to believe.

I know in Who I believe-our great God and Savior Christ Jesus.

Rom 10:8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Rom 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
Rom 10:11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

My advice to you is to leave the Kingdom Hall and their teachings-Christ Jesus is "buried" with the traditions of men.

Again-I pray you will see the true Light-the eyes of your understanding being enlightened-


Eph 1:18 The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,
Eph 1:19 And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power,
Eph 1:20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,
Eph 1:21 Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come:
Eph 1:22 And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church,
Eph 1:23 Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.

I am not against you nor am I your enemy @Aunty Jane and if you want to have a discussion-PM me-always here.

But those who want to play games on an online Forum I put on ignore-time is precious-and we have to redeem the time as we grow older.

I know many things, not disclosing it here sister.
Shalom to you and family.
Johann.