Who Is "the Restrainer" In 2 Thess. 2:6-7

[Phoneman777]

I would go with the church because Gal 6:15-16 is about the new creation, but it's still an analogy Phone.

You SHOULD go with the church because the church is the only Israel of God that will ever be referred to as such.

 

[Phoneman777]

Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in yourselves

According to the book, The Two Babylons, by Alexander Hislop, the "Eucharist" is actually a baptized form of the identical practice found in pagan Sun Worship where the round wafer placed in the half-moon monstrance represents the pagan male-diety reproductive member placed within the pagan female diety reproductive member. The Eucharist is actually a XXX rated abomination masquerading as legitimate church liturgy. Christ's words are purely symbolic.

 

[tom55]

According to the book, The Two Babylons, by Alexander Hislop, the "Eucharist" is actually a baptized form of the identical practice found in pagan Sun Worship where the round wafer placed in the half-moon monstrance represents the pagan male-diety reproductive member placed within the pagan female diety reproductive member. The Eucharist is actually a XXX rated abomination masquerading as legitimate church liturgy. Christ's words are purely symbolic.

You put your faith and belief in one man (Hislop) and his words that were written 1800 years after Jesus death.

I put my faith and belief in His words and the words of the men who walked and talked with Him. I quote Jesus, Paul and the early Christians who walked and talked with the apostles. You quote Hislop. Who is more reliable?

 

[michaelvpardo]

I asked four (4) questions and you have one response; "Never said that it did". Is that the answer to all four questions??

Maybe I can clarify what I mean and how I read your post!

Whether I read what you, Michael V Pardo, said very slowly or very fast it doesn't' change what you said: "For many people within the professing church taking communion is the only public profession of faith that they will ever make after being accepted as a member of their church."

[SIZE=11pt]Which is why I asked the question:[/SIZE] So taking communion is a public profession of faith that a person makes AFTER being accepted as a member of their church?

[SIZE=11pt]That makes me, Tom55, wonder if Michael V Pardo thinks the process of being accepted as a member of a church is done in secret because what you wrote made it sound like taking communion is the ONLY PUBLIC profession of faith. Which is why I asked the question: So becoming a member of a church is done in secret and then communion is the big public reveal?[/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt] [/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]When YOU make the statement, If a person participates without actually believing that Jesus gave His life up for them on the cross and that He will return and bring His own to Himself as He promised, then that person is taking the cup and the bread in an unworthy manner (in disbelief.) [/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt] [/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]Your statement leads me, Tom55, to the question: So if that person doesn't actually believe that Jesus gave His life up for them on the cross and that He will return and bring His own to Himself as He promised then why would they participate in communion? [/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt] [/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt] [/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]I asked that question of YOU because I can't figure out why it would matter if that person takes the cup and the bread in an unworthy manner (in disbelief) AFTER they went thru the entire process of 'being accepted as a member of a church' when they never really believed anyway. If they never really believed while going thru the process of being accepted as a member of the church then communion means nothing to them either. According to you, Michael V Pardo, communion is just a symbolic or public event. So what does it really matter if they believe in Jesus or not since it (communion) doesn't really matter? You could take communion (bread) throw it on the ground and stomp on it. It doesn't really matter. Its just a symbol. So what does it matter if you really believe or not?[/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt] [/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt] [/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]I ask you, Michael V Pardo, this question again: Why would eating day old bread and drinking some cheap wine (symbols) in public bring damnation upon you but not "actually believing" before you [/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]consume it bring damnation upon you?[/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt] [/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]How can we participate in communion "unworthily" if it is just a symbol or public declaration? How can we "be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord" if it is just a symbol or public declaration? Why do we need to "examine" ourselves before we participate in communion if it is just a symbol or public declaration? 1 Corinthians 11:27-29[/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt] [/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]Respectfully, Tom55[/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt] [/SIZE]

Hello Tom55, pardon me for being a bit flippant in my previous response, but let me attempt to be more specific here.
My response "never said that" was intended to convey that I never said taking the communion cup and/or wine unworthily is cause for damnation. The scripture warns about the possible consequence of sickness and death (to those in the church congregation), but I would say that damnation is only the result of rejecting Christ (I can't speak to the disposition of the souls of those who never hear the gospel, other than that they will be judged by Jesus Christ.)
With regard to your question, "So taking communion is a public profession of faith that a person makes AFTER being accepted as a member of their church? "
The actual order of taking communion and becoming a church member would tend to vary depending upon the church we were speaking about. In the RC church, a first communion service may proceed a confirmation in the church. Though I was raised as a Roman Catholic, I wouldn't presume to speak for the denomination, but in my personal experience this was true, as it was for my brothers and other relatives. My limited understanding of RC doctrine was that the elements of Communion were means of imparting grace to the partaker (sacraments) and as the son of a Catholic parent I was a partaker of the "sacrament" of baptism as an infant. As a child the sacraments were no different to me than some sort of magic.
The first church that I attended regularly as a born again believer in our Lord was an independent Baptist congregation. That Church's doctrinal position was that receiving communion prior to being born again by the Holy Spirit was indeed taking communion in an unworthy manner, while receiving communion as a believer is a command. This had nothing to do with membership in the local congregation, but membership in the family of God, and I would have to agree with them on that point. I don't know if there are any denominations or cults that would require a church membership to participate in communion specifically, but what I intended to say (and never actually did) was that in some churches the taking of communion and being "confirmed" in the faith are little more than cultural rites of passage. My confirmation in the RC faith required a personal confession of faith in public, but I can't recall when I (as a Roman Catholic) ever made another public verbal profession of faith beyond the recitation of the Apostles' creed while in a "group" prayer. Some years ago, after I'd received the gospel I had a discussion with some teenagers that identified themselves as Roman Catholic and professed their belief in Christ to me conversationally, but this was never my normal experience with other Roman Catholics, with many that I know never stepping through a "church" door once they were old enough to be out of the control of their parents, nor speaking of "their faith" unless someone brought the matter of faith or religion up to them in conversation. I work with some people that I would never have known were Catholic, if I hadn't seen them with ashes on their foreheads on an ash Wednesday. My intent here is not RC bashing, but only to make the point that there are people who have been raised in a religious context, but remain largely indifferent to matters of faith or in outright unbelief.
This leads to your question, "if that person doesn't actually believe that Jesus gave His life up for them on the cross and that He will return and bring His own to Himself as He promised then why would they participate in communion? ." I would have to say that in a religious system like Roman Catholicism, it isn't unusual for children and even adults who are not well trained doctrinally, to fear judgment and damnation and take the communion elements to hedge their bets so to speak, as a precaution against eternal damnation, while not being sure that Hell exists. Fear of judgment is a common emotion even outside the churches. Even pagan religions sometimes have their version of hell. If some people will throw salt over their shoulder when they spill a salt shaker, it doesn't seem at all odd that they might receive communion elements for simple superstitious reasons. I've also mentioned that culturally, some people would treat communion and confirmation as "rites of passage" and the reason an unbeliever would participate is to be accepted by family and friends as a part of that community found in the church. It wouldn't be unusual for the children of Baptists to desire to take communion or to be baptized prior to genuinely understanding the gospel or the theology of the cross, but it would be unusual for Baptists to allow it without attempting to determine the legitimacy of their children's faith.

Finally, why would it matter if someone partakes in the elements of communion in unbelief? You referenced 1st Corinthians 11:27-29, but you also need to consider verse 26: For as often as you eat this bread and drink this cup, you proclaim the Lord's death till He comes. This is where the act of partaking of communion is called a public profession of faith in Christ as it refers to Him as Lord (not as some man who died on a cross) and references His resurrection and return for His church in an abbreviated way. The proclamation in verse 26 needn't be verbal (though in the RC church the priest makes the pronouncements of the body and blood of Christ), but receiving the elements is symbolically proclaiming faith in His death and resurrection.
Now, receiving communion in unbelief brings judgment for two reasons, one being that there is the curse found in Zechariah against all liars and those who take false oaths (swear by God), and the other being that if unbelieving, the partaker is counting the body and blood of Christ as common things (e.g. He was just another man) and what does the book of Hebrew's say?
26. For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27. but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries. 28. Anyone who has rejected Moses' law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29. Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace? Hebrews 10:26-29
While some people believe that the passage in Hebrews refers to the apostasy of believers, I don't. The early Jewish church was as much a mixed multitude by faith as most modern churches would be. That is, people then, and people now often sit under biblical teaching and the preaching of the gospel without ever receiving it by faith, yet they have been sanctified (set apart) by hearing the word for which they become accountable, and have received blessing through being a part of a church community, tasting and seeing the goodness of God through the work of His Spirit in the born again believers that they have contact with.
I hope that I've satisfactorily answered your questions and I hope that you forgive me for the previous curt and unloving response.

 

[tom55]

Hello Tom55, pardon me for being a bit flippant in my previous response, but let me attempt to be more specific here.
My response "never said that" was intended to convey that I never said taking the communion cup and/or wine unworthily is cause for damnation. The scripture warns about the possible consequence of sickness and death (to those in the church congregation), but I would say that damnation is only the result of rejecting Christ (I can't speak to the disposition of the souls of those who never hear the gospel, other than that they will be judged by Jesus Christ.)
With regard to your question, "So taking communion is a public profession of faith that a person makes AFTER being accepted as a member of their church? "
The actual order of taking communion and becoming a church member would tend to vary depending upon the church we were speaking about. In the RC church, a first communion service may proceed a confirmation in the church. Though I was raised as a Roman Catholic, I wouldn't presume to speak for the denomination, but in my personal experience this was true, as it was for my brothers and other relatives. My limited understanding of RC doctrine was that the elements of Communion were means of imparting grace to the partaker (sacraments) and as the son of a Catholic parent I was a partaker of the "sacrament" of baptism as an infant. As a child the sacraments were no different to me than some sort of magic. The first church that I attended regularly as a born again believer in our Lord was an independent Baptist congregation and that Church's doctrinal position was that receiving baptism prior to being born again by the Holy Spirit was indeed taking communion in an unworthy manner, while receiving communion as a believer is a command. This had nothing to do with membership in the local congregation, but membership in the family of God, and I would have to agree with them on that point. I don't know if there are any denominations or cults that would require a church membership to participate in communion specifically, but what I meant by my statement was that in some churches the taking of communion and being "confirmed" in the faith are little more than cultural rites of passage. My confirmation in the RC faith required a personal confession of faith in public, but I can't recall when I (as a Roman Catholic) ever made another public verbal profession of faith beyond the recitation of the Apostles' creed while in a "group" prayer. Some years ago, after I'd received the gospel I had a discussion with some teenagers that identified themselves as Roman Catholic and professed their belief in Christ to me conversationally, but this was never my normal experience with other Roman Catholics, with many that I know never stepping through a "church" door once they were old enough to be out of the control of their parents, nor speaking of "their faith" unless someone brought the matter of faith or religion up to them in conversation. I work with some people that I would never have known were Catholic, if I hadn't seen them with ashes on their foreheads on an ash Wednesday. My intent here is not RC bashing, but only to make the point that there are people who have been raised in a religious context, but remain largely indifferent to matters of faith or in outright unbelief.
This leads to your question, "if that person doesn't actually believe that Jesus gave His life up for them on the cross and that He will return and bring His own to Himself as He promised then why would they participate in communion? ." I would have to say that in a religious system like Roman Catholicism, it isn't unusual for children and even adults who are not well trained doctrinally, to fear judgment and damnation and take the communion elements to hedge their bets so to speak, as a precaution against eternal damnation, while not being sure that Hell exists. Fear of judgments is a common emotion even outside the churches. Even pagan religions sometimes have their version of hell. If some people will throw salt over their shoulder when they spill a salt shaker, it doesn't seem at all odd that they might receive communion elements for simple superstitious reasons. I've also mentioned that culturally, some people would treat communion and confirmation as "rites of passage" and the reason an unbeliever would participate is to be accepted by family and friends as a part of that community found in the church. It wouldn't be unusual for the children of Baptists to desire to take communion or to be baptized prior to genuinely understanding the gospel or the theology of the cross, but it would be unusual for Baptists to allow it without attempting to determine the legitimacy of their children's faith.

Finally, why would it matter if someone partakes in the elements of communion in unbelief? You referenced 1st Corinthians 11:27-29, but you also need to consider verse 26: For as often as you eat this bread and drink this cup, you proclaim the Lord's death till He comes. This is where the act of partaking of communion is called a public profession of faith in Christ as it refers to Him as Lord (not as some man who died on a cross) and references His resurrection and return for His church in an abbreviated way. The proclamation in verse 26 needn't be verbal (though in the RC the priest makes the pronouncements of the body and blood of Christ), but receiving the elements is symbolically proclaiming faith in His death and resurrection.
Now, receiving communion in unbelief brings judgment for two reasons, one being that there is the curse found in Zechariah against all liars and those who take false oaths (swear by God), and the other being that if unbelieving, the partaker is counting the body and blood of Christ as common things (e.g. He was just another man) and what does the book of Hebrew's say?
26. For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27. but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries. 28. Anyone who has rejected Moses' law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29. Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace? Hebrews 10:26-29
While some people believe that the passage in Hebrews refers to the apostasy of believers, I don't. The early Jewish church was as much a mixed multitude by faith as most modern churches would be. That is, people then, and people now often sit under biblical teaching and the preaching of the gospel without ever receiving it by faith, yet they have been sanctified (set apart) by hearing the word for which they become accountable, and have received blessing through being a part of a church community, tasting and seeing the goodness of God through the work of His Spirit in the born again believers that they have contact with.
I hope that I've satisfactorily answered your questions and I hope that you forgive me for the previous curt and unloving response.

Thank you. You have articulated your position well. You did not upset me by your previous curt response therefor there is no reason to forgive you.

 

[ATP]

You SHOULD go with the church because the church is the only Israel of God that will ever be referred to as such.

Matt 24:15-16 NIV “So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination that causes desolation,’ spoken of through the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand— 16then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.

Rev 12:6 NIV The woman fled into the wilderness to a place prepared for her by God, where she might be taken care of for 1,260 days.

Rev 12:14 NIV The woman was given the two wings of a great eagle, so that she might fly to the place prepared for her in the wilderness, where she would be taken care of for a time, times and half a time, out of the serpent’s reach.

Judea
Ioudaia: Judaea.
Original Word: Ἰουδαία, ας, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: Ioudaia
Phonetic Spelling: (ee-oo-dah'-yah)
Short Definition: Judea
Definition: Judea, a Roman province, capital Jerusalem.

Wilderness
erémos: solitary, desolate
Original Word: ἔρημος, ον
Part of Speech: Adjective
Transliteration: erémos
Phonetic Spelling: (er'-ay-mos)
Short Definition: deserted, desolate, a desert
Definition: as an adj: deserted, desolate, waste; hence: the desert, to the east and south of Palestine; of a person: deserted, abandoned, desolate.

Mountain
oros: a mountain
Original Word: ὄρος, ους, τό
Part of Speech: Noun, Neuter
Transliteration: oros
Phonetic Spelling: (or'-os)
Short Definition: a mountain
Definition: a mountain, hill.

 

[ATP]

You SHOULD go with the church because the church is the only Israel of God that will ever be referred to as such.

The last three are future...

1. The Passover
2. Unleavened Bread
3. Firstfruits
4. Feast of Weeks
5. Feast of Trumpets (Rapture)
6. Day of Atonement (Israel)
7. Feast of Tabernacles (1,000 Year Reign)

 

[ATP]

You SHOULD go with the church because the church is the only Israel of God that will ever be referred to as such.

Rom 11:25-31 NIV
25 I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers and sisters, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in,
26 and in this way all Israel will be saved. As it is written: “The deliverer will come from Zion; he will turn godlessness away from Jacob.
27 And this is my covenant with them when I take away their sins.”
28 As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies for your sake; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs,
29 for God’s gifts and his call are irrevocable.
30 Just as you who were at one time disobedient to God have now received mercy as a result of their disobedience,
31 so they too have now become disobedient in order that they too may now receive mercy as a result of God’s mercy to you.

 

[Phoneman777]

You put your faith and belief in one man (Hislop) and his words that were written 1800 years after Jesus death.

I put my faith and belief in His words and the words of the men who walked and talked with Him. I quote Jesus, Paul and the early Christians who walked and talked with the apostles. You quote Hislop. Who is more reliable?

Dear friend, Jesus Himself clarified that He spoke symbolically, saying flesh doesn't profit, but only His WORD, in verse 63, which is what I base my belief in. There is no mention in the entire Bible of the transubstantiation - Luther said it and the rest of false Papal doctrine comes from the "Roman Dunghill of Decretals", and has been simply yet another means of exploitation of the masses through the use of superstition. It forms one of the foundational components for Catholicim's claim that salvation comes only through the Holy See because by his authority alone can we "eat His flesh/blood". You should know that at the Last Supper, Jesus passed the cup to everyone, which is never done during the Eucharist, though Jesus said "as often as ye do THIS ("this" referring to both bread and cup). Very inconsistent.

 

[Phoneman777]

Matt 24:15-16 NIV “So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination that causes desolation,’ spoken of through the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand— 16then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.
Rev 12:6 NIV The woman fled into the wilderness to a place prepared for her by God, where she might be taken care of for 1,260 days.
Rev 12:14 NIV The woman was given the two wings of a great eagle, so that she might fly to the place prepared for her in the wilderness, where she would be taken care of for a time, times and half a time, out of the serpent’s reach.

Judea
Ioudaia: Judaea.
Original Word: Ἰουδαία, ας, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: Ioudaia
Phonetic Spelling: (ee-oo-dah'-yah)
Short Definition: Judea
Definition: Judea, a Roman province, capital Jerusalem.Wilderness
erémos: solitary, desolate
Original Word: ἔρημος, ον
Part of Speech: Adjective
Transliteration: erémos
Phonetic Spelling: (er'-ay-mos)
Short Definition: deserted, desolate, a desert
Definition: as an adj: deserted, desolate, waste; hence: the desert, to the east and south of Palestine; of a person: deserted, abandoned, desolate.Mountain
oros: a mountain
Original Word: ὄρος, ους, τό
Part of Speech: Noun, Neuter
Transliteration: oros
Phonetic Spelling: (or'-os)
Short Definition: a mountain
Definition: a mountain, hill.

Yes, these verses apply to "the Israel of God" which heeded Jesus' warning in 70 AD while Christ's enemies fell to Titus' sword. And apply also centuries later, when "the Israel of God" fled from demonic Papal persecution for exactly 1,260 prophetic days (literal years from 538 AD - 1798 AD) while the Papacy hunted them like animals until the deadly wound of 1798, which is now healed and now all the world including the Protestant world wondering "after the Beast". (Revelation 13:3 KJV)

 

[Phoneman777]

The last three are future...

1. The Passover
2. Unleavened Bread
3. Firstfruits
4. Feast of Weeks5. Feast of Trumpets (Rapture)
6. Day of Atonement (Israel)
7. Feast of Tabernacles (1,000 Year Reign)

Something you've never been taught - please consider: As you know, the Feast of Trumpets signaled the approach of the Day of Atonement when the "Sanctuary was Cleansed" and if you look up in the Hebrew encyclopedias you will find that the Day of Atonement is synonymous with the Day of JUDGMENT. With JUDGMENT.

Daniel in his 8th chap said the Sanctuary was to be cleansed after 2,300 Days.

However, he wasn't told when the 2,300 years would start and that left him confused. After earnest prayer Gabriel came and told him he'd come to explain the 2,300 Days "vision". He then says the 70 Weeks are cut off from the 2,300 because that portion pertained only to ancient Israel and Jerusalem, and then says the 70 Weeks begin in 457 BC at Artaxerxes' decree - this was Daniel's answer to when the 2,300 Days begins because the one was cut off, or segmented, from the other. Both prophecies were to begin at the same time.

In the late 18th century and the early 19th century, their was the Great Lisbon Earthquake of 1755, the Dark Day and Bloody Moon Night of 1780, and the unprecedented Great Winter of Falling Stars of 1833, all of which the world has never seen since. During this time the Great Religious Awakening took place when people discovered the 2,300 Days prophecy, and concluded that 1844 was the date of the Cleansing of the Sanctuary - the Heavenly Sanctuary. Therefore, these signs in the heavens were the fulfillment of the Feast of Trumpets which signaled to the world that the Feast of the Day of Atonement on 1844 was approaching. We are now living in the Day of Atonement Judgment Hour of Revelation 14:7 KJV. The last Feast is when Jesus comes and we Tabernacle with Him forever.

 

[ATP]

Yes, these verses apply to "the Israel of God" which heeded Jesus' warning in 70 AD while Christ's enemies fell to Titus' sword. And apply also centuries later, when "the Israel of God" fled from demonic Papal persecution for exactly 1,260 prophetic days (literal years from 538 AD - 1798 AD) while the Papacy hunted them like animals until the deadly wound of 1798, which is now healed and now all the world including the Protestant world wondering "after the Beast". (Revelation 13:3 KJV)

The end has not come yet, the six seals, rapture and fig tree are all future along with Matt 24:15 NIV. The Olivet Discourse as a whole is all future.

Matt 24:14 NIV And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.

Matt 24:29-31 NIV “Immediately after the distress of those days “ ‘the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.’ 30“Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory. 31And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

Matt 24:32-34 NIV “Now learn this lesson from the fig tree: As soon as its twigs get tender and its leaves come out, you know that summer is near. 33Even so, when you see all these things, you know that it is near, right at the door. 34Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened.

Matt 24 & Rev 6 Parallel
1st Seal - Matt 24:4-5 NIV, Rev 6:1-2 NIV
2nd Seal - Matt 24:6 NIV, Rev 6:3-4 NIV
3rd Seal - Matt 24:7 NIV, Rev 6:5-6 NIV
4th Seal - Matt 24:6-7 NIV, Rev 6:7-8 NIV
5th Seal - Matt 24:9 NIV, Rev 6:9-11 NIV
6th Seal - Matt 24:29-31 NIV, Rev 6:12-14 NIV

Something you've never been taught - please consider: As you know, the Feast of Trumpets signaled the approach of the Day of Atonement

There's a rapture on two different days?

Lev 23:24 NIV “Say to the Israelites: ‘On the first day of the seventh month you are to have a day of sabbath rest, a sacred assembly commemorated with trumpet blasts.

Lev 23:27 NIV “The tenth day of this seventh month is the Day of Atonement. Hold a sacred assembly and deny yourselves, and present a food offering to the Lord.

Rom 11:25-31 NIV
25 I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers and sisters, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in,
26 and in this way all Israel will be saved. As it is written: “The deliverer will come from Zion; he will turn godlessness away from Jacob.
27 And this is my covenant with them when I take away their sins.”
28 As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies for your sake; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs,
29 for God’s gifts and his call are irrevocable.
30 Just as you who were at one time disobedient to God have now received mercy as a result of their disobedience,
31 so they too have now become disobedient in order that they too may now receive mercy as a result of God’s mercy to you.

 

[Phoneman777]

The end has not come yet, the six seals, rapture and fig tree are all future along with Matt 24:15 NIV. The Olivet Discourse as a whole is all future.

Matt 24:14 NIV And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.

Matt 24:29-31 NIV “Immediately after the distress of those days “ ‘the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.’ 30“Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory. 31And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

Matt 24:32-34 NIV “Now learn this lesson from the fig tree: As soon as its twigs get tender and its leaves come out, you know that summer is near. 33Even so, when you see all these things, you know that it is near, right at the door. 34Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened.

Matt 24 & Rev 6 Parallel
1st Seal - Matt 24:4-5 NIV, Rev 6:1-2 NIV
2nd Seal - Matt 24:6 NIV, Rev 6:3-4 NIV
3rd Seal - Matt 24:7 NIV, Rev 6:5-6 NIV
4th Seal - Matt 24:6-7 NIV, Rev 6:7-8 NIV
5th Seal - Matt 24:9 NIV, Rev 6:9-11 NIV
6th Seal - Matt 24:29-31 NIV, Rev 6:12-14 NIV


There's a rapture on two different days?

Lev 23:24 NIV “Say to the Israelites: ‘On the first day of the seventh month you are to have a day of sabbath rest, a sacred assembly commemorated with trumpet blasts.

Lev 23:27 NIV “The tenth day of this seventh month is the Day of Atonement. Hold a sacred assembly and deny yourselves, and present a food offering to the Lord.

Rom 11:25-31 NIV
25 I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers and sisters, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in,
26 and in this way all Israel will be saved. As it is written: “The deliverer will come from Zion; he will turn godlessness away from Jacob.
27 And this is my covenant with them when I take away their sins.”
28 As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies for your sake; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs,
29 for God’s gifts and his call are irrevocable.
30 Just as you who were at one time disobedient to God have now received mercy as a result of their disobedience,
31 so they too have now become disobedient in order that they too may now receive mercy as a result of God’s mercy to you.

Wrong. The 7 Churches, Seals, and Trumpets are parallel prophecies - John the Revelator saw them begin to unfold as Jesus our High Priest stood in the Holy Place of the Heavenly Sanctuary, meaning they have to begin unfolding before He moves from there to the Most Holy Place and begins cleansing the Heavenly Sanctuary. Does the Bible say when it would be cleansed? Yes, "unto 2,300 Days then shall the sanctuary be cleansed", which which was in 1844 A.D.

 

[ATP]

Wrong. The 7 Churches, Seals, and Trumpets are parallel prophecies - John the Revelator saw them begin to unfold as Jesus our High Priest stood in the Holy Place of the Heavenly Sanctuary, meaning they have to begin unfolding before He moves from there to the Most Holy Place and begins cleansing the Heavenly Sanctuary. Does the Bible say when it would be cleansed? Yes, "unto 2,300 Days then shall the sanctuary be cleansed", which which was in 1844 A.D.

The 7 churches come before Rev 4 when John was taken up. Also, Israel and the Gentiles. God showing mercy to Israel...

25 I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers and sisters, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in,
26 and in this way all Israel will be saved. As it is written: “The deliverer will come from Zion; he will turn godlessness away from Jacob.
27 And this is my covenant with them when I take away their sins.”
28 As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies for your sake; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs,
29 for God’s gifts and his call are irrevocable.
30 Just as you who were at one time disobedient to God have now received mercy as a result of their disobedience,
31 so they too have now become disobedient in order that they too may now receive mercy as a result of God’s mercy to you.

 

[Phoneman777]

\There's a rapture on two different days?

Nothing I've written indicates I'm suggesting a Rapture on two different days. There is only one Rapture, and that is at the Second Coming of Christ, when both the dead and living saints are "caught up".

 

[Phoneman777]

The 7 churches come before Rev 4 when John was taken up. Also, Israel and the Gentiles. God showing mercy to Israel...

25 I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers and sisters, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in,
26 and in this way all Israel will be saved. As it is written: “The deliverer will come from Zion; he will turn godlessness away from Jacob.
27 And this is my covenant with them when I take away their sins.”
28 As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies for your sake; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs,
29 for God’s gifts and his call are irrevocable.
30 Just as you who were at one time disobedient to God have now received mercy as a result of their disobedience,
31 so they too have now become disobedient in order that they too may now receive mercy as a result of God’s mercy to you.

ATP, John was already "in the Spirit" on the Sabbath and receiving visions since from chapter 1, so who cares if he was "taken up" in chapter 4, when he was already in vision? There's absolutely no prophetic significance to that - it is a private interpretation by those who needed an imaginary boundary to "prove" the church will not be here to endure the rest of Revelation, so they latched onto whatever they could find in chapter 4, and you could can bet if instead the text said "John was sat down on a porcelain altar with a TV Guide", they would have latched onto that -ANYTHING - so as to point to as "proof".

No, John saw them all begin to unfold while our High Priest was yet in the Holy Place, which proves they have to begin unfolding before the end of the 2,300 Days, when Jesus' High Priestly ministry in the Holy Place ended and His work of cleansing the Heavenly Sanctuary began - in 1844 A.D.

Jesuit Futurists actually expect us to believe that God had nothing to say to His church since the end of His letter to the Laodiceans, ALTHOUGH in chapter 15 Jesus clearly speaks to His church and warns that His "thief in the night" coming is still future.

 

[ATP]

Nothing I've written indicates I'm suggesting a Rapture on two different days. There is only one Rapture, and that is at the Second Coming of Christ, when both the dead and living saints are "caught up".

But they are on two different days on the Jewish calendar. God follows the 360 day calendar. There is also no trumpet blasts on the Day of Atonement.

The Day of Atonement

26The Lord said to Moses, 27“The tenth day of this seventh month is the Day of Atonement. Hold a sacred assembly and deny yourselves, and present a food offering to the Lord. 28Do not do any work on that day, because it is the Day of Atonement, when atonement is made for you before the Lord your God. 29Those who do not deny themselves on that day must be cut off from their people. 30I will destroy from among their people anyone who does any work on that day. 31You shall do no work at all. This is to be a lasting ordinance for the generations to come, wherever you live. 32It is a day of sabbath rest for you, and you must deny yourselves. From the evening of the ninth day of the month until the following evening you are to observe your sabbath.”

ATP, John was already "in the Spirit" on the Sabbath and receiving visions since from chapter 1, so who cares if he was "taken up" in chapter 4, when he was already in vision? There's absolutely no prophetic significance to that

I will show you what must take place after this...Rev 6-22, all future...

Rev 4:1 NIV After this I looked, and there before me was a door standing open in heaven. And the voice I had first heard speaking to me like a trumpet said, “Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after this.”

 

[ATP]

ATP, John was already "in the Spirit" on the Sabbath and receiving visions since from chapter 1, so who cares if he was "taken up" in chapter 4, when he was already in vision? There's absolutely no prophetic significance to that - it is a private interpretation by those who needed an imaginary boundary to "prove" the church will not be here to endure the rest of Revelation, so they latched onto whatever they could find in chapter 4, and you could can bet if instead the text said "John was sat down on a porcelain altar with a TV Guide", they would have latched onto that -ANYTHING - so as to point to as "proof".

No, John saw them all begin to unfold while our High Priest was yet in the Holy Place, which proves they have to begin unfolding before the end of the 2,300 Days, when Jesus' High Priestly ministry in the Holy Place ended and His work of cleansing the Heavenly Sanctuary began - in 1844 A.D.

Jesuit Futurists actually expect us to believe that God had nothing to say to His church since the end of His letter to the Laodiceans, ALTHOUGH in chapter 15 Jesus clearly speaks to His church and warns that His "thief in the night" coming is still future.

Also, Israel and the Gentiles. God showing mercy to Israel. Can you comment on this please.....

25 I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers and sisters, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in,
26 and in this way all Israel will be saved. As it is written: “The deliverer will come from Zion; he will turn godlessness away from Jacob.
27 And this is my covenant with them when I take away their sins.”
28 As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies for your sake; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs,
29 for God’s gifts and his call are irrevocable.
30 Just as you who were at one time disobedient to God have now received mercy as a result of their disobedience,
31 so they too have now become disobedient in order that they too may now receive mercy as a result of God’s mercy to you.

 

[Phoneman777]

But they are on two different days on the Jewish calendar. God follows the 360 day calendar. There is also no trumpet blasts on the Day of Atonement.

The Day of Atonement

26The Lord said to Moses, 27“The tenth day of this seventh month is the Day of Atonement. Hold a sacred assembly and deny yourselves, and present a food offering to the Lord. 28Do not do any work on that day, because it is the Day of Atonement, when atonement is made for you before the Lord your God. 29Those who do not deny themselves on that day must be cut off from their people. 30I will destroy from among their people anyone who does any work on that day. 31You shall do no work at all. This is to be a lasting ordinance for the generations to come, wherever you live. 32It is a day of sabbath rest for you, and you must deny yourselves. From the evening of the ninth day of the month until the following evening you are to observe your sabbath.”


I will show you what must take place after this...Rev 6-22, all future...

Rev 4:1 NIV After this I looked, and there before me was a door standing open in heaven. And the voice I had first heard speaking to me like a trumpet said, “Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after this.”

Where did I say there were trumpet blasts on the DoA? The Trumpets are blown before hand to announce the soon arrival of the DoA.

I said the Feast of Trumpets in prophecy were the events which took place before the DoA of 1844, the "cleansing of the Sanctuary" which took place at the end of the 2,300 Days. These events were the Great Lisbon Earthquake of 1755, the Dark Day and Bloody Moon Night of 1780, and the Great Winter of Falling Stars of 1833.

These events ushered in the Great Religious Awakening which during that time the people began to search the prophecies because they saw in these signs in nature to be something Biblically significant. They discovered the prophecy of the 2,300 Days, which God said would be "sealed up" until the "time of the end", when it would be open and understood. From that search, the people discovered that Jesus was coming back very soon, not after the 1,000 year wait they were told would happen. Good gravy, man, don't you know anything about church history, my friend? The Trumpets blew with the signs in the heavens and the DoA arrived right on schedule in 1844.

 

[Phoneman777]

I will show you what must take place after this...Rev 6-22, all future...

Rev 4:1 NIV After this I looked, and there before me was a door standing open in heaven. And the voice I had first heard speaking to me like a trumpet said, “Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after this.”

Of COURSE they were "things which must be hereafter" because they were FUTURE EVENTS. That certainly doesn't mean they didn't start unfolding in John's day, because each of the three can easily be explained to match what happened in history, hence the name "Historicism".

The 7 Churches are the spiritual history of the church from the ascension until the Second Coming
The 7 Seals are the political history of the church from the ascension until the Second Coming
The 7 Trumpets are the militaristic history of the church from the ascension until the Second Coming

These prophecies must begin BEFORE 1844 because John saw them unfolding while Jesus was in the Holy Place, and He didn't pass into the Most Holy Place until after 1844, for the Day of Atonement/Cleansing of the Sanctuary.

Look, ATP, unlike you, I have fully acquainted myself with Jesuit Futurism AND ALSO Protestant Historicism, because I refuse to suffer from Cognitive Dissonance, the self imposed disease of cowards. You, however, have not studied Historicism AT ALL, yet you fight tooth and nail against it while at the same time being wholly ignorant of it.

Did you know that the Lisbon Earthquake of 1755 rocked the whole world? The effects were felt on both the Northern AND Southern hemispheres and the destruction was immense! Did you know there was a Dark Day and Bloody Moon Night in 1780 where at 10:00 AM the whole East Coast and beyond went totally dark and absolutely no scientific reason for it, even until this day? Did you know that night the moon was BLOOD RED? Did you know that in 1833, the greatest meteoric shower display in the history of the entire planet took place, and Lincoln was awakened by his aides and told "Mr. Lincoln, the Lord has come, the Lord has come!!!" Did you know that after he gazed at the sky, which the newspapers reported was so bright it was like the middle of the day, and saw the constellations still firmly in their place, Lincoln said, the Lord is still on his throne, all is well" and he went back to bed.

No, you don't know any of this, though it is firmly recorded in history, because all Protestantism has taught you are the demonic, satanic, abominable lies of JESUIT FUTURISM.

I have studied BOTH intently. You have studied only Jesuit Futurism, and unless you are willing to study Historicism out before making up your mind, how can you know for sure that your beloved Jesuit Futurism is correct? Good gravy, man, aren't you the least bit concerned as to why what I'm preaching is for the most part what Protestants all around the world believed and taught for THREE FLIPPIN' CENTURIES until your Jesuit ideas, the same ideas the great Protestant Reformers crushed out as soon as they sprouted like so much damnable weeds, were resurrected just yesterday???