Who/What is Jesus if not God?
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Men are Carnal. A mans natural understanding is Carnal.
You can “without” seeing, “HEAR” a man, in the next room, on the phone, on the TV, even via texts, blogs, forums....WITHOUT seeing, you can “presume” it is a man...yet, it may be a female, a bot, voice contortion device, a toy recording....you do not KNOW, without SEEING.
You have the option of USING your carnal minded logic to Guess, between male and female, voice or bot etc.
Men WHO have freely CHOSEN to accept Gods Offering to BE MADE, “spiritually” wholly whole......ARE no longer under the LIMIT of ONLY Carnal.
Men who DESIRE to argue, debate, accuse, instigate, a SPIRITUAL conversation, from a Carnal minded view point, IS on it’s FACE, a waste of time.
It has everything to do with “recognizing” “the leg standing”, is from TWO expressly DIFFERENT points of VIEW.
IF one is “standing” on A Carnal Point of View....and an other is “standing” on a Spiritual Point of View...the discussion is MOOT.
A spiritual Point of VIEW, has NOTHING whatsoever to DO WITH Upholding a VIEW of “two God”!
A carnal Point of VIEW, “accusing” one with a Spiritual point of View, as “Having two Gods”......is simply an accusatory TACTIC, of a false claim, ONE makes for AN OTHER, when the Other himself, has made no such claim.
I see YOU have made a CLAIM for “an other”.
The “other” is quite capable of speaking for himself.
This forum has a quote feature, that you can “quote” an other “Making the CLAIM you accuse”.
You claim an other is “MAKING ‘their case” for TWO Gods”.
QUOTE “them” making that supposed claim, saying TWO Gods...instead of speaking FOR THEM!
Otherwise, WHY would you EXPECT, anyone to respond, or defend, what they HAVE NOT SAID?
Brakelite
Well-Known Member
Aaaah, yes, a different individual person, absolutely, but still a human. God begets a Son... What species can the Son be other than... God????
Not rude bro, all is good.
Johann
Well-Known Member
Heb 1:1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
Heb 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
Heb 1:3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;
Heb 1:4 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.
Heb 1:5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?
Heb 1:6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.
Heb 1:7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.
Heb 1:8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
Heb 1:9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.
Heb 1:10 And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:
Heb 1:11 They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment;
Heb 1:12 And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed: but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail.
Heb 1:13 But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool?
Heb 1:14 Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?
J.
Brakelite
Well-Known Member
One of the attributes of God... Even those we imagine and attribute to them our own ideas, is the self-existent aspect of His life. We view God as a Being who sustains Good own existence by His own power. We cannot do that. We need God at all times, and for all eternity, to keep us alive. Our life is never our own... It belongs to our Creator. It is the same with the angels. Even they eternal life we are promised is still dependant upon our eating of the tree of life. Adam and Eve were dependant on the tree of life in Eden, and after sin were restrained from partaking... There is therefore to be no such thing as a sinner with eternal life. Self existent life is an attribute of God and no-one else.
KJV 1 Timothy 6:16
16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.
Jesus however is subtly different. Jesus declared that the life that was given to Him was from the Father. Yes, He is self existent and therefore God, but the self existent life was granted Him as His inheritance.
KJV John 5:26
26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;
So the life of the Son is the life of the Father... Self existent... But was given Him as part of His begotten nature. He is still God, being the express image of the Father, but in rank, not equal, which puts paid to any notions of co-equality... And co-eternalality as described in the traditional trinitarian formulas.
So not two Gods. One God. Two individuals. Both God. United as Father and Son. How does that work? Who knows???? It's just what I see at the moment. Tomorrow, God may reveal to me where I'm utterly and helplessly wrong.
Johann
Well-Known Member
Incorrect, Christ Jesus IS/HAYA God and IS eternal life and that was not not granted Him as His inheritance.
John’s purpose for writing the gospel: “these are written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ” (John 20:31).
John’s background for his book: “the framework for Jesus’ understanding of his own mission is shaped by the Scriptures mediated by the Jews” (D. A. Carson).
John’s 2 questions for the reader to wrestle with: 1) Who is Jesus? 2) What do I do with his words/teachings?
I AM
OT Background: Exodus 3:1-20, especially verses 13-18. (cf. Is. 41:4; 43:10-13)
NT fulfillment: John 6:20; 8:24, 28, 58; 18:5.
Synopsis: When God calls Himself the “I Am” in Exodus 3, it’s a pivotal moment in redemptive history. God reveals Himself to His people and comes to redeem them out of exile and lead them into a new life. God’s name discloses who He is and what He is like. He is the I Am, the eternal, unchanging, self-existent one, infinite and glorious in every way, and above and beyond all created things. He is God.
When Jesus applies the title “I Am” to himself, he claims to be God (John 8:58). Not a helper to God or a great teacher, but the divine, eternal, pre-existent, infinite, perfect Being. He is Israel’s God. He is greater than Moses because he is the God of Moses. He has life in himself and he can give life to us. The Jews knew taking on this title was making such a claim, which is why they immediately pick up stones to kill him (8:59).
The seven “I Am” statements in John might best be understood as falling under and echoing this initial, ultimate claim of Jesus. He is God, and he is the God of Israel. All the OT and God’s redemptive acts were pointing to the coming of Jesus as the God-in-flesh, the true and better Israel, and the fulfillment of all the OT types and shadows.
1) I Am the Bread of Life
OT Background: Exodus 16; Deut. 8:3; Ps. 78:23-25
NT Fulfillment: John 6:22-59, especially verses 28-35.
Synopsis: Jesus enters a dialogue with Jews who had followed him because of his miracles—including the recent feeding of the 5,000—and yet they missed the reality behind them (he is the Divine Messiah). More important than solving their physical hunger for food through bread, Jesus offers himself as the Bread of Life to fulfill deeper longings and an eternal need.
There is more to the bread from God than the bread itself (Exodus 16). It’s not an earthly bread but a heavenly bread. It comes from above—from God—and comes down to us only by his grace and goodness. We need more than physical bread and we need it from someone other than ourselves. God will provide what we need most, and we should raise our eyes in faith.
Jesus takes this Old Testament background to bread for God’s people and he claims to be the bread of life. He explains the bread in the wilderness of Exodus was only a temporary provision, and that it points to a true and eternal bread from heaven God would later give. This bread is now before the Jews. The manna pictures Jesus, who is sent from God, comes down from heaven, must be taken by faith, who must be eaten/fully taken in, and who gives life.
2) I Am the Light of the World
OT Background: Exodus 13:17-22 (cf. Ex. 14:19-20); Isaiah 42:6 and 49:6 (both verses are in the four Servant Songs of Isaiah).
NT Fulfillment: John 8:12-30. See also John 1:4-5; 3:19-21; 9:5; 12:35-36).
Synopsis: Light is one of the most prominent themes in John’s Gospel. The world is lost and hopeless in darkness (John 1:4-14). The darkness cannot change its condition. Light must enter and invade. One cannot see or lead others in the darkness, so light is necessary to guide us and walk forward. John picks up light from a rich OT heritage and shows how Jesus is the light.
Based upon the fact that in John 8:12 Jesus ties the idea of being the light with his people following after him in the light, the most likely OT background in mind here is the light of God’s presence leading Israel in the wilderness via the pillar of fire (Exodus 13-14). Just as the Israelites were led by the pillar of fire (light) in the exodus and saved from the Egyptians as they crossed the Red Sea, so also Jesus says those who follow him (light) will have life.
A secondary OT background of the image of light is found in Isaiah 42:6 and 49:6. This light has to do with the salvation of the nations, and it is probably the primary reference in other passages like John 12:35-36, 46.
3) I Am the door or gate & 4) I Am the Good Shepherd
OT Background: Psalms 118:20 (gates = door); Ezekiel 34 and Jeremiah 23 (cf. Isaiah 40:11; Numbers 27:15-18; Micah 5:4)
NT Fulfillment: John 10:1-18
Synopsis: In John 10:1-18, Jesus makes two of the I Am sayings together. He claims he is the both the door through which the sheep enter as well as the Shepherd who knows the sheep and lays down his life for them. The metaphor of the door does not have the rich OT background as shepherding imagery does. But, Jesus is both the only way (door) a person enters into the people of God and the one who gives his life for the life of sheep, whom he knows and protects. He is the one who gathers the sheep and cares for them (shepherd) and he’s also the means by which they enter and are kept safe (door).
We should recall that Jesus is talking to the Pharisees in this conversation. The claims to be a good shepherd and Israel’s true shepherd was (in part) a rebuke against them. As the influential teachers in Israel, they should have led the people to truth. They should have put the people before themselves. They should serve God’s agenda rather than their own. But the Pharisees are like the bad shepherds in Ezekiel 34 and Jeremiah 23, leading them astray through false doctrine, prioritizing themselves over the sheep, and abusing them. Through this metaphor, Jesus at once lumps the Pharisees into the camp of the false prophets and bad shepherds of the OT while claiming to be the true and good shepherd those same OT passages promised (Ezek. 34:11-16, 22-24; Jer. 23:3-4).
Jesus comes not to pile burdens on but to relieve them and carry them himself. Jesus comes not to scatter the sheep but to gather them. Jesus comes not to devour the sheep but to defend them. Jesus comes to seek out, rescue, heal, and feed the sheep. He will do so because he loves the sheep and they belong to him. This is proven and accomplished by him giving up his life for his sheep.
5) I Am the resurrection, and the life
OT Background: Genesis 1-3; Isaiah 53:10
NT Fulfillment: John 11:17-27
Synopsis: Similar to other I Am statements, Jesus doesn’t just talk about what he can do or give, but who He is. He doesn’t just give bread (like Moses) but he is the bread. He doesn’t merely reflect light; he is the light. So also, in John 11, Jesus says I am the resurrection and the life.
The OT background isn’t as clear here as other statements, but most commentators believe Genesis 1-3 is partially in view. God is the Creator and Life-giver, granting life to creation and breathing life into Adam. However, the first Adam chose sin which brought about death for mankind and brokenness for the creation. Jesus comes as the second Adam, righteous and blameless in all his ways, comes to undo what Adam did and reverse the curse (Rom. 5:12-21; 1 Cor. 15). Where Adam brought about death and decay, Jesus gives life and restoration. He provides not only resurrection and life to individuals who believe in him but for the entire world.
While many of the Jews wanted things from Jesus without having to receive and believe in Jesus, the offer of Jesus is himself. He doesn’t give bread and allow people to reject submission and belief to him, nor does he offer to give life apart from that life being found in him. These are free and gracious gifts, and they come only in and through Jesus. He is the resurrection and the life. He is the 2ndAdam, bringing resurrection and life where the first Adam offered us only death.
6) I Am the way, the truth, and the life
OT Background: Exodus 26:33; Leviticus 16
NT Fulfillment: John 14:6
Synopsis: It’s likely Jesus is here contrasting himself to the many ways in the OT that God prescribed for how the Jews could approach and relate to him. The systems of the sacrifices, temple, the curtain, tabernacle, and other means of worship were temporary “ways” to God. As the NT makes clear, these things in and of themselves did not cleanse or make people acceptable to God, but they were avenue by which God’s people could walk in faith and follow after Him (see Hebrews 8-9).
Jesus contrasts himself to anything before him they thought led them to the Father. He is the only one who provides the way to the Father, but he is also at the same time to the full revelation of the Father (truth). Jesus is telling them there’s nowhere else to look; nowhere you need to look or can look to find the true path to God. Jesus is that one way and that one path. He offers what Israel looked for and needed, and he replaced all prior things set up as temporary means by which man relates to God. All of these pointed to him and accomplished limited things (such as only making people ceremonially clean but not truly clean), and he is now here and able to accomplish salvation and redemption fully.
7) I Am the true vine
OT Background: Two vineyard songs: Isaiah 5:1-7 (the desolate vineyard) & Isaiah 27:2-6 (the fruitful vineyard).
NT Fulfillment: John 15:1-6
Johann
Well-Known Member
Incorrect.
Luke 22:69
But from now on the Son of Man will be seated at the right hand of the power of God.”
Luke 22:70
And they all said, “Are You the Son of God, then?” And He said to them, “Yes, I am.”
John 10:30
I and the Father are one.”
John 10:37
If I do not do the works of My Father, do not believe Me;
John 10:38
but if I do them, though you do not believe Me, believe the works, so that you may know and understand that the Father is in Me, and I in the Father.”
John 12:45
He who sees Me sees the One who sent Me.
John 14:7-10
If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also; from now on you know Him, and have seen Him.” Philip *said to Him, “Lord, show us the Father, and it is enough for us.” Jesus *said to him, “Have I been so long with you, and yet you have not come to know Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; how can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?
John 16:15
All things that the Father has are Mine; therefore I said that He takes of Mine and will disclose it to you.
Matthew 16:16
Verse Concepts
Simon Peter answered, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”
John 1:1
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
John 1:2
He was in the beginning with God.
Romans 1:4
who was declared the Son of God with power by the resurrection from the dead, according to the Spirit of holiness, Jesus Christ our Lord,
Romans 9:5
whose are the fathers, and from whom is the Christ according to the flesh, who is over all, God blessed forever. Amen.
Colossians 1:15
He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.
Colossians 2:9
For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form,
1 Timothy 3:16
By common confession, great is the mystery of godliness:
He who was revealed in the flesh,
Was vindicated in the Spirit,
Seen by angels,
Proclaimed among the nations,
Believed on in the world,
Taken up in glory.
1 Timothy 6:15
which He will bring about at the proper time—He who is the blessed and only Sovereign, the King of kings and Lord of lords,
Hebrews 1:3
And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power. When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,
Revelation 19:16
And on His robe and on His thigh He has a name written, “KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.”
Matthew 3:17
and behold, a voice out of the heavens said, “This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well-pleased.”
Matthew 17:5
While he was still speaking, a bright cloud overshadowed them, and behold, a voice out of the cloud said, “This is My beloved Son, with whom I am well-pleased; listen to Him!”
John 5:32
There is another who testifies of Me, and I know that the testimony which He gives about Me is true.
John 5:37
And the Father who sent Me, He has testified of Me. You have neither heard His voice at any time nor seen His form.
John 8:18
I am He who testifies about Myself, and the Father who sent Me testifies about Me.”
1 John 5:9
If we receive the testimony of men, the testimony of God is greater; for the testimony of God is this, that He has testified concerning His Son.
Source: 25 Bible verses about Divinity Of Christ
J.
Brakelite
Well-Known Member
I don't doubt it. Can anyone by searching find out God? Really, I'm just tossing out ideas as I see them. As far as the life of the Son is concerned, I liken it to what I view as a type in Daniel 2. The Rock cut out of the mountain without hands. The Rock is Christ, and He is of the exact same material...DNA if you like... As that from which He came. Yet He was cut out and thus had a beginning. Yet the life He has is immortal... Eternal. Always with the Father, and yet begotten.
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Johann
Well-Known Member
Your problem with "In the beginning"
Isaiah 46:10
Declaring the end from the beginning,
And from ancient times things which have not been done,
Saying, ‘My purpose will be established,
And I will accomplish all My good pleasure’;
Revelation 22:13
I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end.”
Revelation 22:14
Blessed are those who wash their robes, so that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter by the gates into the city.
Revelation 1:8
“I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, “who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.”
1 Samuel 3:12
In that day I will carry out against Eli all that I have spoken concerning his house, from beginning to end.
Job 8:7
“Though your beginning was insignificant,
Yet your end will increase greatly.
Revelation 21:6
Then He said to me, “It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give to the one who thirsts from the spring of the water of life without cost.
Revelation 1:17
When I saw Him, I fell at His feet like a dead man. And He placed His right hand on me, saying, “Do not be afraid; I am the first and the last,
Revelation 2:8
“And to the angel of the church in Smyrna write:The first and the last, who was dead, and has come to life, says this:
Isaiah 44:6
“Thus says the Lord, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, the Lord of hosts:
‘I am the first and I am the last,
And there is no God besides Me.
Isaiah 48:12
“Listen to Me, O Jacob, even Israel whom I called;
I am He, I am the first, I am also the last.
Isaiah 41:4
“Who has performed and accomplished it,
Calling forth the generations from the beginning?
‘I, the Lord, am the first, and with the last. I am He.’”
Ecclesiastes 3:11
He has made everything appropriate in its time. He has also set eternity in their heart, yet so that man will not find out the work which God has done from the beginning even to the end.
Ecclesiastes 7:8
The end of a matter is better than its beginning;
Patience of spirit is better than haughtiness of spirit.
Ecclesiastes 10:13
the beginning of his talking is folly and the end of it is wicked madness.
Matthew 20:8
“When evening came, the owner of the vineyard *said to his foreman, ‘Call the laborers and pay them their wages, beginning with the last group to the first.’
Hebrews 7:3
Without father, without mother, without genealogy, having neither beginning of days nor end of life, but made like the Son of God, he remains a priest perpetually.
In the beginning was (ἐν ἀρχῇ ἦν)
With evident allusion to the first word of Genesis. But John elevates the phrase from its reference to a point of time, the beginning of creation, to the time of absolute pre-existence before any creation, which is not mentioned until Joh_1:3. This beginning had no beginning (compare Joh_1:3; Joh_17:5; 1Jn_1:1; Eph_1:4; Pro_8:23; Psa_90:2).
J.
God revealed His Will, His Intent, His Act of His Way of HOW He chose to Reveal His Knowledge.
True. Spirits DO NOT Have, BLOOD.
True. Spirits have the Power to TAKE UPON themselves the LIKENESS of Human men. (As well as, the likeness of animals!)
True. Men can not SEE Spirits as they ARE.
True. Men CAN SEE Spirits WHEN Spirits take upon themselves a LIKENESS of a “thing” Human Men “CAN SEE”.
Scripture has revealed, God Himself, IS Spirit. God Himself, IS invisible to a Human mans EYES. God Himself HAS the Power to Take upon Himself the Likeness AS A MAN.
Scripture has revealed, God Himself, “purposed IN Himself”, to take upon Himself, the Likeness As a Human man.
Scripture has revealed, God Himself, “prepared the BODY”, which Gods Himself, would “take upon Himself”, in the day, God chose to “reveal” Himself, to ISRAEL, (earthly mens eyes); as God Promised He would.
God Himself revealed; Names, Titles, Descriptions FOR men ON Earth, Seeing or Hearing, (The speech, The body God prepared and SENT for men ON Earth TO see and Hear)... FOR such men ON EARTH...
To CALL HIM, by such Names, Titles, Descriptions, as God Himself, Expressly Revealed.
It is NOT a SECRET....the Names, Titles, Descriptions...God Himself Established, for men ON Earth...TO KNOW.
It is apparent that ALL MEN ON EARTH, DO NOT KNOW, God purposed in Himself, God prepared a Body, God sent that body to Earth. God established Names, Titles, Descriptions to call that which God Sent for men to hear AND SEE. And that WHAT God SENT, is what God Promised....to SEND... Himself, in a form Human men can See...and a NAME of what to expect.
I have a Bible. Do you have a comment for your purpose of quoting to me 14 passages?
Johann
Well-Known Member
I am so used to various heteros answers from various divers denominations that nothing can surprise me anymore.
We may read the Bible from cover to cover and still be wrong on very important doctrines.
So go ahead
J.
Johann
Well-Known Member
Saint of God
Active Member
of course you are... You are claiming Jesus is God while this father is God. Is Jesus his father?
Mark 16:19
So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.
Word of God is another name for Jesus . God the father(Lord God Almighty) sent Jesus his son to be the saviour of the world.
Revelation 19:13
And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
See the father and his son, two different entities as one what? If you call your son Word and he comes back to you, how does that make you and him one person?
LOL
Gee @MatthewG .... How do you manage your daily life of thinking and believing on your own, “without some stranger” popping in to TELL YOU, what you think and believe.? LOL
Saint of God
Active Member
Then Jesus is not God...plain and simple.
Therefore Jesus is not God...plain and simple
That means two Gods in any language...Both are mangoes means two mangoes. Both are apples means two apples. Both are men means two men. Both are God means two Gods.
How does that relate to Jesus, the son of God? First of all man (body and spirit) is a soul...
Genesis 2:7
And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
Secondly, man is one body,
ERV
Each one of us has one body, and that body has many parts. These parts don’t all do the same thing.
Because they are part of one body. Please explain how that relates to God? Does God have many parts. If Jesus is a part of God then he is not God, just as your fingernail is part of you but not you.
Jesus could not do anything without his father
John 5:19
Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.
in the same way we cannot do anything without Jesus.
John 15:5
I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
According to your logic, we must all be Jesus.
Saint of God
Active Member
It is impossible for God to lie...or to change...
Hebrews 6:18
That by two immutable things, in which it was impossible for God to lie, we might have a strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold upon the hope set before us:
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