Why do people believe in a rapture?

[keras]

Keras,

Revelation 7:9
The Great Multitude in White Robes
9 After this I looked, and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and before the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands.

Note: Where is the throne on Earth then?


Revelation 19:1
Threefold Hallelujah Over Babylon’s Fall
19 After this I heard what sounded like the roar of a great multitude in heaven shouting:

“Hallelujah!
Salvation and glory and power belong to our God


I wont argue that they may be different multitudes, but I do believe both events took place in Heaven.

Where is the Throne of God in Rev 7? The Bible does NOT say it is in heaven. The previous 8 verses happen on earth, John says: After this I saw......not then I went, or; in heaven....As ATP says; we really must stop making things up....YOU RAPTURISTS!
God's Throne can be anywhere, Ezekiel 1:1 saw it when he was by the river Kebar.

The great multitude of Rev 19 may actually be some of the same people as Rev 7, but the two prophesies of them are years apart.

 

[ATP]

Where is the Throne of God in Rev 7? The Bible does NOT say it is in heaven.

keras, where are the angels, the elders and the four living creatures located? You can do this man. I believe in you.

Rev 7:11 NIV All the angels were standing around the throne and around the elders and the four living creatures. They fell down on their faces before the throne and worshiped God,

 

[keras]

keras, where are the angels, the elders and the four living creatures located? You can do this man. I believe in you.

Rev 7:11 NIV All the angels were standing around the throne and around the elders and the four living creatures. They fell down on their faces before the throne and worshiped God,

Didn't you bother to look up Ezekiel 1 ? He saw the whole scene while he was on earth. Daniel 7:9-10 saw it too. It's all spiritual and just like Elijah was able to see the chariots of the Lord.
John saw it all happening on earth as well, whether he was in heaven during that vision or not, is immaterial, the events were all on earth and from verse 15, it describes how it will be after the Millennium. Rev 7:17 and Rev 21:4 are exact parallels.

Placing these things in heaven is just another falsehood upon a lie, like a kid who tells a fib and must add to it or be found out. Realise this: the rapture to heaven theory HAS been found out and continuing to believe it, in the face of scriptural facts that totally refute it, isn't wise.

 

[Marcus O'Reillius]

Didn't you bother to look up Ezekiel 1 ? He saw the whole scene while he was on earth. Daniel 7:9-10 saw it too. It's all spiritual...

It's all "spiritual". That is a false premise from a man-centered view.

Exo 25:9. Make this tabernacle and all its furnishings exactly like the pattern I will show you.

The pattern for the Temple is from Heaven.
As God is the original, so too is the Temple of God first in Heaven (Rev 15:6, 8).
As truth is fidelity to the original, so too, shall we adhere to the First, which is also Last.

And the reason we must be moved to the Temple in Heaven - where John is when he sees the Great Multitude in Rev 7, and where John is in Rev 19 when he hears the Geeat Multitude - is that God will rain down desolations upon the wicked who don't believe in Jesus, sparing only a remnant of the Jews, a third of them.

We are not to incur God's Wrath. We are justified in Christ Jesus. And by His Holiness, God calls us sinners "Saints" - which is how we translate His use of 'holy' back onto us in both the Hebrew and the Greek.

 

[ATP]

Didn't you bother to look up Ezekiel 1 ? He saw the whole scene while he was on earth. Daniel 7:9-10 saw it too. It's all spiritual and just like Elijah was able to see the chariots of the Lord.
John saw it all happening on earth as well, whether he was in heaven during that vision or not, is immaterial, the events were all on earth and from verse 15, it describes how it will be after the Millennium. Rev 7:17 and Rev 21:4 are exact parallels.

Placing these things in heaven is just another falsehood upon a lie, like a kid who tells a fib and must add to it or be found out. Realise this: the rapture to heaven theory HAS been found out and continuing to believe it, in the face of scriptural facts that totally refute it, isn't wise.

No not exactly, take a look again. This is the third heaven. The third heaven is where God's angels dwell...

Rev 4:1-6 NIV After this I looked, and there before me was a door standing open in heaven. And the voice I had first heard speaking to me like a trumpet said, “Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after this.” 2At once I was in the Spirit, and there before me was a throne in heaven with someone sitting on it. 3And the one who sat there had the appearance of jasper and ruby. A rainbow that shone like an emerald encircled the throne. 4Surrounding the throne were twenty-four other thrones, and seated on them were twenty-four elders. They were dressed in white and had crowns of gold on their heads. 5From the throne came flashes of lightning, rumblings and peals of thunder. In front of the throne, seven lamps were blazing. These are the seven spirits of God. 6Also in front of the throne there was what looked like a sea of glass, clear as crystal. In the center, around the throne, were four living creatures, and they were covered with eyes, in front and in back.

Rev 5:1-8 NIV Then I saw in the right hand of him who sat on the throne a scroll with writing on both sides and sealed with seven seals. 2And I saw a mighty angel proclaiming in a loud voice, “Who is worthy to break the seals and open the scroll?” 3But no one in heaven or on earth or under the earth could open the scroll or even look inside it. 4I wept and wept because no one was found who was worthy to open the scroll or look inside. 5Then one of the elders said to me, “Do not weep! See, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has triumphed. He is able to open the scroll and its seven seals.” 6Then I saw a Lamb, looking as if it had been slain, standing at the center of the throne, encircled by the four living creatures and the elders. The Lamb had seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven spirits of God sent out into all the earth. 7He went and took the scroll from the right hand of him who sat on the throne. 8And when he had taken it, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb. Each one had a harp and they were holding golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of God’s people

Rev 14:2-3 NIV And I heard a sound from heaven like the roar of rushing waters and like a loud peal of thunder. The sound I heard was like that of harpists playing their harps. 3And they sang a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders. No one could learn the song except the 144,000 who had been redeemed from the earth.

Rev 15:5-8 NIV After this I looked, and I saw in heaven the temple—that is, the tabernacle of the covenant law—and it was opened. 6Out of the temple came the seven angels with the seven plagues. They were dressed in clean, shining linen and wore golden sashes around their chests. 7Then one of the four living creatures gave to the seven angels seven golden bowls filled with the wrath of God, who lives for ever and ever. 8And the temple was filled with smoke from the glory of God and from his power, and no one could enter the temple until the seven plagues of the seven angels were completed.

Rev 19:1-4 NIV After this I heard what sounded like the roar of a great multitude in heaven shouting: "Hallelujah! Salvation and glory and power belong to our God, 2 for true and just are his judgments. He has condemned the great prostitute who corrupted the earth by her adulteries. He has avenged on her the blood of his servants." 3 And again they shouted: "Hallelujah! The smoke from her goes up for ever and ever." 4 The twenty-four elders and the four living creatures fell down and worshiped God, who was seated on the throne. And they cried: "Amen, Hallelujah!"

 

[keras]

I don't deny that John was in heaven in Rev 4 & 5. But in Rev 14, he heard the sound from heaven..... in Rev 15, he looked and saw in heaven the Temple........and in Rev 19, he heard the sound of a great multitude in heaven..... All these last three quotes are from the viewpoint of the earth.

Get over the false idea of a rapture removal and look forward to the fantastic blessings of God to His people, as they live in peace and prosperity in all of the Holy Land. Hosea 14:4-8
Hosea 14:9 Who is wise? He shall understand these things......

 

[StanJ]

Stan's proof of a rapture to heaven:
1 Thess 4:13-18 - No mention of a removal to heaven there.
1 Cor 15:51-53 - No mention of a removal to heaven there.
Titus 2:13 - No mention of a removal to heaven there.
John 14:3 - No mention of a removal to heaven there either! You are just making up the idea of a rapture.

Stans proof of 2P2P;
Daniel 9:24-27 - Just talking about the one people of God there.
Zech 12:10 - The Jews are separate now and they will be judged first, as Zech 13 goes on to describe. The survivors, Isaiah 4:3, will join with all Israel, true descendants of Jacob or those grafted in and all will live in the Holy Land.
Romans 11:25-27 - is talking about those who are still alive after God has dealt with the apostate, atheistic and homosexual current inhabitants of Israel. Ezekiel 21:1-7

The idea of God having 2 plans, is one that has been constructed by the cultic rapture believers: we're outta here, let the Jews burn! Hardly a Christian attitude for starters!

and here I thought you understood the concept of rapture, but now you equivocate and ADD to it. I have NEVER advocated the rapture means we GO to heaven. I don't believe ANYONE goes to heaven because the Bible does NOT teach that. I suggest therefore, that you re-read and re-examine all I have posted to get the actual impetus of what I HAVE stated.

God did indeed have 2 plans. The OLD covenant and the NEW covenant. The first WAS obsolete and disappeared. The second will carry us TO the millennium, where a third phased will begin. How is it you don't get this?

 

[ATP]

I don't deny that John was in heaven in Rev 4 & 5. But in Rev 14, he heard the sound from heaven..... in Rev 15, he looked and saw in heaven the Temple........and in Rev 19, he heard the sound of a great multitude in heaven..... All these last three quotes are from the viewpoint of the earth.

Yes, God gives visions of heaven from earth. If He didn't we wouldn't have scripture. Notice who is in heaven.

Rev 19:1 NIV After this I heard what sounded like the roar of a great multitude in heaven shouting: "Hallelujah! Salvation and glory and power belong to our God,

Ignorance is bliss.

 

[keras]

Yes, God gives visions of heaven from earth. If He didn't we wouldn't have scripture. Notice who is in heaven.

Rev 19:1 NIV After this I heard what sounded like the roar of a great multitude in heaven shouting: "Hallelujah! Salvation and glory and power belong to our God,

Ignorance is bliss.

Ignorance is bliss, real knowledge may cause worry.
The rapture idea is nice, the truth of God's plan may mean some difficulty for those who have failed to understand it..

Re the great multitude: [GM]
The GM in Rev 7:9 are from every tribe, nation and language.
The GM in Rev 19:1 could be anyone, even just angels.

The GM in Rev 7:9 is all the righteous people gathered into Israel soon after the Sixth Seal disaster. To deny this truth, is to shuffle the Revelation sequence. ​
The GM in Rev 19:1 are the righteous people brought back from their place of safety, plus all who refused the mark of the beast, during the Great Trib.

 

[ATP]

Ignorance is bliss, real knowledge may cause worry.
The rapture idea is nice, the truth of God's plan may mean some difficulty for those who have failed to understand it..

Re the great multitude: [GM]
The GM in Rev 7:9 are from every tribe, nation and language.
The GM in Rev 19:1 could be anyone, even just angels.

The GM in Rev 7:9 is all the righteous people gathered into Israel soon after the Sixth Seal disaster. To deny this truth, is to shuffle the Revelation sequence. ​
The GM in Rev 19:1 are the righteous people brought back from their place of safety, plus all who refused the mark of the beast, during the Great Trib.

They're the same people from Rev 7:9.
We live with the Lord in heaven until He comes back on His white horse Rev 19:14.
When the Word of God says the great multitude is in heaven I believe God. You do not.

 

[keras]

They're the same people from Rev 7:9.
We live with the Lord in heaven until He comes back on His white horse Rev 19:14.
When the Word of God says the great multitude is in heaven I believe God. You do not.

Saying I don't believe God's Word, places you in the same category as Marcus, making unchristian and derogatory remarks. I thought the better of you, I was wrong.

Jesus said there would be no rapture removal of anyone to heaven. John 3:13 Don't you believe Him?

 

[ATP]

Jesus said there would be no rapture removal of anyone to heaven. John 3:13 Don't you believe Him?

This passage is about the deity of Christ, thus you taking it out of context. Why do you think we receive resurrected bodies?

Saying I don't believe God's Word, places you in the same category as Marcus, making unchristian and derogatory remarks. I thought the better of you, I was wrong.

Well, you don't believe God when He says the great multitude is in heaven Rev 19:1. Either you believe it or you don't. You do not.

 

[Marcus O'Reillius]

Saying I don't believe God's Word, places you in the same category as Marcus, making unchristian and derogatory remarks. I thought the better of you, I was wrong.

Jesus said there would be no rapture removal of anyone to heaven. John 3:13 Don't you believe Him?

Well, since rabbi keras hubris has determined that I will not make it to his fabled land of Israel for God's Wrath to smite me with him and all his fellow followers in Israel, being un-Christian is quite an understatement. Why, I must be the devil incarnate to belittle rabbi keras hubris' remarks.

Like John 3:13.

Jesus does NOT say there would be no rapture removal of anyone to Heaven.

No one has ever gone (past perfect tense) into heaven except the one who came from heaven —the Son of Man.

Now remember, this is before Jesus Himself is raised up to Heaven, so no one else at this point has been raised up.
Not Moses, nor Noah. Not any of those who come out of their graves when He dies. Not those who follow in His train when He ascends.
Not even the "men wondered at" who attend the Court hearing where Satan accuses Jesus before God the Father and God doubly rebukes Satan and uplifts Jesus to righteousness.
None of the martyrs, none of the Dead in Christ, nor none of those who remain and are still alive when the Day of the Lord comes.

No one at that point in Jesus' First Advent has yet been taken into Heaven.

So Jesus' statement is true.

 

[keras]

This passage is about the deity of Christ, thus you taking it out of context. Why do you think we receive resurrected bodies?


Well, you don't believe God when He says the great multitude is in heaven Rev 19:1. Either you believe it or you don't. You do not.

I carefully reread John 13. The context is Jesus teaching Nicodemus, a Pharisee, about earthly an heavenly things. Verse 13 is a definitive statement, clear and unambiguous. Saying it Is just about Jesus' deity is a flat out denial, only made in a desperate attempt to support the rapture theory.

Re Rev 19:1; scripture is clear, there will be a large group of people in heaven, just before the Return. I believe that. Who exactly they are we aren't told. But the group in Rev 7:9 is different, they are on earth and have just been gathered from the nations into the Holy Land. Rev 14:1 Thinking they are one and the same group is another construct by the rapture proponents.

 

[Marcus O'Reillius]

.
When rabbi keras hubris says Scripture means something, don't believe him. He wears some funny set of glasses that let him see only what he wants to see.

I carefully reread John 13.

So carefully, he misses that it is John 3:13.

The context is Jesus teaching Nicodemus, a Pharisee, about earthly an heavenly things.

I don't know what an earthly an [sic] heavenly things rabbi keras hubris is talking about.

The proper context, because rabbi keras hubris is as dense as Nicodemus, has Jesus upbraiding a proper Rabbi on why he doesn't understand Jesus' testimony about the difference between the Spirit and the Flesh as it relates to the Kingdom of God.

Jesus was telling Nicodemus that his descent from Abraham was not adequate ground for salvation. He would have to repent and begin a new life in the Spirit if he expected to enter the kingdom of God (cf. John 8:37- 44 -- Expositor's Bible Commentary on v.9

See, don't trust rabbi keras hubris to tell you what a passage means.

Verse 13 is a definitive statement, clear and unambiguous.

Oops! There's that "clear" word again! I know that anything after that is anything but clear, and merely their own conclusion - and we know rabbi keras hubris will never correct himself on what he thinks in his little head with those funny glasses on.

Saying it Is just about Jesus' deity is a flat out denial,

rabbi keras hubris misses my point altogether.

I didn't say it was just about Jesus' deity! I pointed out the verb tense of what Jesus said!

It's not that no one ever will! It's that no one ever has - in A.D. 29!

At this time - no one ELSE had been translated to Heaven!

Really, you can't trust rabbi keras hubris to tell you anything anyone else says; he just gets it wrong time and time again.

Now, verse 13 isn't about the Rapture. It's about knowing what you know. And we can know rabbi keras hubris doesn't know what he's talking about.

The "earthly things" Jesus alluded to were probably the phenomena he used for illustrations, such as the wind. If Nicodemus couldn't grasp the meaning of spiritual truth as conveyed by concrete analogy, how would he do so if it were couched in an abstract statement? No one had ever entered into heaven to experience its realities directly except Jesus himself, the Son of Man, who had come from heaven. Revelation, not discovery, is the basis for faith. -- Expositor's Bible Commentary on verses 12 and 13.

only made in a desperate attempt to support the rapture theory.

The only desperate attempt here is to refute the Rapture. This verse doesn't do it any more than Isaiah 30:26 says a coronal mass ejection will burn a third of the earth on the Day of the Lord.

You just can't trust such a "rabbi" when he is out to destroy the hope Paul says we should have for the "gathering up".

 

[ATP]

I carefully reread John 13. The context is Jesus teaching Nicodemus, a Pharisee, about earthly an heavenly things. Verse 13 is a definitive statement, clear and unambiguous. Saying it Is just about Jesus' deity is a flat out denial, only made in a desperate attempt to support the rapture theory.

That passage is specifically about the deity of Christ and how He is God.
We receive resurrected bodies at first resurrection and rapture so we can dwell in heaven in His Glory.
If we didn't go to heaven, we would still need resurrected bodies to dwell on the New Earth.
That's the whole point. We will not all sleep, at the last trumpet.....

1 Cor 15:50-54 NIV I declare to you, brothers and sisters, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. 54When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: “Death has been swallowed up in victory.”

1 Thess 4:13-17 NIV Brothers and sisters, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you do not grieve like the rest of mankind, who have no hope. 14For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. 15According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.

Re Rev 19:1; scripture is clear, there will be a large group of people in heaven, just before the Return. I believe that. Who exactly they are we aren't told. But the group in Rev 7:9 is different, they are on earth and have just been gathered from the nations into the Holy Land. Rev 14:1 Thinking they are one and the same group is another construct by the rapture proponents.

And this large group of people is the CHURCH. Open your eyes just a little bit keras.

 

[keras]

I put it to you: You and all those who have subscribed to the false rapture theory, are the ones who have been blinded. Isaiah 29:9-12, Isaiah 48:6-8, Isaiah 56:10-11, 1 Cor. 3:18, Matthew 11-12, all apply to those who have chosen to believe things that are not part of God's plan.
I promote the truth of Bible prophecy, the many verses that say how the Lord will gather His people into His holy Land. That group in Rev 19:1, I see as those who will be gathered as per Matthew 24:31 at the Return of Jesus. They are invited to the wedding supper of the Lamb and then they will be with Him during His Millennium reign on earth.

 

[ATP]

That group in Rev 19:1, I see as those who will be gathered as per Matthew 24:31 at the Return of Jesus.

The return of Jesus is one parousia inside many events. It's not one parousia inside one parousia event. That is false. The first event is rapture....1 Thess 4:15 NIV According to the Lord's word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming (parousia) of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep.

Matt 24:31 occurs BEFORE the Day of the Lord in the middle of the last 3.5 years. There will be signs in the sun, moon and stars BEFORE the Day of the Lord occurs Joel 2:30-31 NIV, Matt 24:29-31 NIV. You are putting the Day of the Lord at the end of the 70th week, and that is false. The Day of the Lord is God's wrath of trumpets and bowls, and the fifth trumpet lasts five months alone Rev 9:5. After the 70th week is over there is only 75 days left until the 1,000 year reign starts Dan 12:11-12. That is not enough time for God's wrath to be fulfilled keras. 75 days is not five months!

 

[StanJ]

I put it to you: You and all those who have subscribed to the false rapture theory, are the ones who have been blinded. Isaiah 29:9-12, Isaiah 48:6-8, Isaiah 56:10-11, 1 Cor. 3:18, Matthew 11-12, all apply to those who have chosen to believe things that are not part of God's plan.
I promote the truth of Bible prophecy, the many verses that say how the Lord will gather His people into His holy Land. That group in Rev 19:1, I see as those who will be gathered as per Matthew 24:31 at the Return of Jesus. They are invited to the wedding supper of the Lamb and then they will be with Him during His Millennium reign on earth.

Your opinion is well documented keras, however you have NOT supported it with RELEVANT and PROPERLY exegeted scripture. Your condescending attitude only makes you less credible, and less desirable to debate with.

 

[Marcus O'Reillius]

rabbi keras hubris has cited Isaiah 48:6-8 as an admonishment against those who push this "false doctrine" of the Rapture, even though the word from which Rapture comes, harpazo, is IN the Bible.

With rabbi keras hubris' poor record of not being able to read Isaiah 30:26, as Isaiah admonishes those drunken prophets of his day in Isaiah 29:9-12, let's look at this cited material and ask: does it really condemn those who look forward to joining Jesus on the clouds as Paul says we are to encourage one another do?

Now first of all, this is addressed to the House of Jacob, not some spiritual Israel...

6 "You have heard; look at all this.
And you, will you not declare it?
I proclaim to you new things from this time,
Even hidden things which you have not known.
7 "They are created now and not long ago;
And before today you have not heard them,
So that you will not say, 'Behold, I knew them. '
8 "You have not heard, you have not known.
Even from long ago your ear has not been open,
Because I knew that you would deal very treacherously;
And you have been called a rebel from birth.

Israel is rebellious (v. 8; cf. 1:2). God did not reveal these things earlier, for he knew how cynically she would react. Her ear was shut to his glad tidings, while, Isaiah will show, the Servant's would be open to accept his destiny of suffering (50:4). -- Expositor's Bible Commentary.

We are not rebellious.
We are faithful.

We do not say, 'Ah, we knew that already!'
We do look to God's Word for what He has said will come to pass, and there we find the Rapture.

This citation of rabbi keras von hubris has nothing to do in condemning those who accept the Rapture as being entirely Biblical!

Again, rabbi keras cites chapter and verse and says it says something it wholly, (and Holy) doesn't.