Why don’t you believe Satan has been defeated?

[marks]

Was Jesus not slain before the foundation of the world,

This is from a misinterpretation of a verse. The parallel passage shows the meaning.

Much love!

 

[ScottA]

I see.

Yes, I agree that there were indeed some hard sayings in scripture, particularly in the teachings of Jesus, but many of them were harder at the time than they are for us now in hindsight. But maybe that goes to point, because it was the early church that discerned the meanings of His hard sayings, and in doing so laid down the doctrines that we were to go by, and while they taught Satan's defeat in the harrowing of Hell, they didn't teach that he was somehow "defeated" in the absolute sense of the word yet. Quite to the contrary. They continued to depict Satan as someone who was attacking the early church, and attempting to keep them from preaching the gospel.

17 But we, brethren, having been taken away from you for a short time in presence, not in heart, endeavored more eagerly to see your face with great desire. 18 Therefore we wanted to come to you—even I, Paul, time and again—but Satan hindered us.

I could tell you, but let me just say that I suggest or appeal, that many things that were first believed to mean one thing or not even looked at as any great thing--such as the mystery of marriage revealed some millennia after it was first brought into practice, and not fully understood until the times were fulfilled--so, too, we should expect the unexpected. This was in fact the word of Christ regarding the time of His return: "for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect."

Add to that the warnings and prophecies of false teachers and the believing of a lie causing strong delusion...and we should not rule out the unexpected hard sayings based on the churches imperfect history. But should expect to be warned and take heed that we too are likely to miss most of what comes our way by Him who did not even spare His chosen from what could be looked at as similar occurring in our own times.

So, no, do not expect to hear from MatthewG, or ScottA, or any other--we all are nothing but dogs, if without the spirit of God. But if a donkey, or the rocks cry out--hear it.

 

[ScottA]

This is from a misinterpretation of a verse. The parallel passage shows the meaning.

Much love!

Please explain.

 

[MatthewG]

Revelation 13: previous: #104

16 It also forced all people, great and small, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on their right hands or on their foreheads, - 29

We first see that selling and buying was limited only to those who bore the mark, i.e. "the name of the beast or the number of its name." Fulfillment scholar David Clark writes, "This was to boycott or ostracism the Christians, and deprive them of the common rights of citizens, or the common rights of humanity.

The pressure of economic distress was to be laid on them on them to compel them to conform." David Hilton, quoting Austin Farrer, in a 1964 work adds "Similarly, [the Jewish leaders[ organized economic boycotts against those who refused to submit to Caesar as Lord, the leaders of the synagogues 'forbidding all dealings with the excommunicated,' and going as far to put them to death."

Richard Anthony [2009] speaks further of the allegiance required by Nero during his lifetime: "All those who proclaim their allegiance to Caesar by burning a pinch of incense and declaring, "Caesar is Lord". Upon compliance with this law, the people were given a papyrus documented called a libelous, which they were required to present when either stopped by the Roman police or attempting to engage in commerce in the Roman marketplace, increasing the difficult of "buying or selling" without this mark."

Again from C. Marvin Pate and Calvin B Haines Jr. 1995 book titled "Doomsday Delusions," we read, "Megalomanic that he was, Nero had coins minted in which he was called "almighty God" and "Savior." Neros portrait also appears on coins as god Apollo playing a lyre. While earlier emperors were proclaimed ditties upon their deaths, Nero abandons all reserve and demand divine honors while still alive [as did also Caligula before him, in AD 37-41].

Those who worshiped the emperor received a certificate or mark or approval - charagma, the same word used in Revelation 13:16 [which is the word for the gamed mark of the beast]. Here in verse 16, we might wonder if John's original readers were meant to understand that the followers of the beast would receive a literal and visible mark on their hands or forehead.

If so, then the quotes above lend credence to the idea of such a thing occurred in Nero's day. Perhaps the language John used also hearkened back to classic Old Testament metaphors the hand representing one's deeds and the forehead representing one's thoughts and that this is a reference somehow to Moses' instructions to the people of Israel, that they were to bind the words of God "as a sign on your hand, and they shall be as a frontlets between your eyes" [Deuteronomy 6:8]. [see Revelation 14:9; 19:20; 20:4]

17 so that they could not buy or sell unless they had the mark, which is the name of the beast or the number of its name. - 30

30 - Note carefully the phrase, "the number of his name," as this is significant in understanding verse 18. [see Revelation 14:11; 15:2]

18 This calls for wisdom. Let the person who has insight calculate the number of the beast, for it is the number of a man. That number is 666. - 31

31 - [See commentary on Revelation 13:18 - the Number of the Beast] [see Revelation 15:2; 17:9; 21:17]

Credits to souce -> Book | Revelations on Revelation | cult

 

[ScottA]

Does God have our lives in an order for no reason? Time is sequence and duration for those within it's confines.

Much love!

This Jesus explained, saying that "I still have many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now." That being children, these things should rather come, "precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept, Line upon line, line upon line, Here a little, there a little.”

But if I may reason with you...history is His story unfolded from Adam until Christ, and then refolded, "first to the Jew, and then to the Greek", "but each man in his own order", "decreasing" in the world, and "increasing" in heaven since John the Baptist.

 

[Charlie24]

Please explain.

Hello Scott! It could be that you have been misunderstood in your use of "Was Jesus not slain before the foundation of the world"

Maybe you could elaborate?

 

[ScottA]

Hello Scott! It could be that you have been misunderstood in your use of "Was Jesus not slain before the foundation of the world"

Maybe you could elaborate?

Time, like the world, is created. Thus, separating that which is of the world from that which "is not of this world"...the ultimate truth regarding "when" Jesus was slain (though it came in the fulness of time according to what is written in the heaven) is "before the foundation of the world." Which is to say that it was of God and not of the world.

Similar explanations are given regarding other ultimate truths of God as well. Many are identifiable by their use of past tense language...also meaning "before the foundation of the world." And also other uses of language, such as God (completely biblically) being defined (for a time) as "the same yesterday, today, and forever", when in Revelation there "is no shadow of turning" with God, and when spoken plainly, the ultimate truth of just how He exists by definition, He himself says rather, simply "I am."

 

[marks]

Please explain.

These are the relevant passages:

Revelation 13:8 KJV
And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Revelation 17:8 KJV
The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

This is divided into it's clauses:

Revelation 13:8 KJV
And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Looking at the syntax, "from the foundation of the world" can be paired with "of the Lamb slain", or, "whose names are not written". This phrase, "whose names are not written", "written" is in the perfect tense, and this should be understood as, "whose names do not remain written".

Grammatically speaking, either of these readings would be correct, "Of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world", or, "whose names are not written from the foundation of the world".

So in the case of an ambiguity in the passage, we look to parallel passages to settle the matter.

Revelation 17:8 KJV
The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

And in this case there is a very clear parallel passage, which I believe confirms the intended saying of 13:8.

I realize this is one of those things that people don't want to let go of . . . but that's what the text shows.

Much love!

 

[Nancy]

#124 <- click this for some consideration on Revelation 13 - (Now Completed)

Don’t get me wrong I understand that most believe that revelation is not completed yet, but if you would consider the contents and context of that book at written to 7 churches in Asia Minor, and that things were soon to come shortly to pass, why is it most Christian churches today continue to repeat that Yeshua is still coming back today, 2000 years later?

Why is it people don’t accept it as the truth of a coming to pass for them in that area and time? Some say John wrote many years after the destruction of Jerusalem, but then why doesn’t the revelation John write say “and don’t be like those who had fallen in Jerusalem”, or why doesn’t it say this is “for a future generation”.

Do not get me wrong I love you either way even if your a futurist but think for yourself for a moment, what is your hope in?

Is it in the destruction of everything you know now that is around you for Jesus to come back and vindicate for you on your behalf when the contents and context of the Bible almost always from Genesis to About Acts maybe 5? Is dealing with the nation of Israel upon until Paul shows up and goes out to the gentiles but also writes to a Jewish audience as well?

It’s hard for me to understand why people continue to believe that Satan is still around when he was a key player while the Law was intact but the Law is gone, it was done away with, the Law was given to Jewish people not Gentiles but people act as though sometimes they need to obey the Law given from Moses to the Israelites: it is useful but only useful to bring people to Christ.

So why is you don’t believe this?

“And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭20:10‬ ‭NIV‬‬
Revelation 20:10

Spoiler: A considerational book

Book | Revelations on Revelation | cult

Hey Matt!
The problem with this to me is that, if Christ is ruling now on this earth, I cannot see it.
Where in time, do yo think Satan will be "let loose for awhile" takes place??
We still have sickness, tears, wars, on and on so how does that equate with Jesus having already returned for the last time?
Love you bro!

 

[MatthewG]

Hey Matt!
The problem with this to me is that, if Christ is ruling now on this earth, I cannot see it.
Where in time, do yo think Satan will be "let loose for awhile" takes place??
We still have sickness, tears, wars, on and on so how does that equate with Jesus having already returned for the last time?
Love you bro!

I will share with you the fulfillment perspective - which you can take as a grain of salt, Nancy.

Revelation 21:4 and God shall wipe away every tear from their eyes, and the death shall not be any more, nor sorrow, nor crying, nor shall there be any more pain, because the first things did go away.'

Revelation 21:4 He will wipe every tear from their eyes, and there shall be no more death or mourning, wailing or pain, [for] the old order has passed away.”

The key to understanding this passage is found in the words, "for the former things are passed away." Literalist of Revelation see this verse as description of a heavenly utopia, but the reality is the description speaks to spiritual peace and joy amidst a continued life of challenges in the flesh. Mourning, crying and pain are met with spiritual comfort in this age for those who are His along with he certainty of an eternal perspective. We are able to see the validity of this in the fact that people are still having to "overcome" or conquer things in the description of this age. [see verse 7] [see Isaiah 25:8; Isaiah 35:10; Isaiah 61:3; Isaiah 65:19; 1 Corinthians 15:26; 1 Corinthians 15:54; Revelation 7:17; Revelation 20:14]

Love you too my sister.

 

[ScottA]

These are the relevant passages:

Revelation 13:8 KJV
And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Revelation 17:8 KJV
The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

This is divided into it's clauses:

Revelation 13:8 KJV
And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Looking at the syntax, "from the foundation of the world" can be paired with "of the Lamb slain", or, "whose names are not written". This phrase, "whose names are not written", "written" is in the perfect tense, and this should be understood as, "whose names do not remain written".

Grammatically speaking, either of these readings would be correct, "Of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world", or, "whose names are not written from the foundation of the world".

So in the case of an ambiguity in the passage, we look to parallel passages to settle the matter.

Revelation 17:8 KJV
The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

And in this case there is a very clear parallel passage, which I believe confirms the intended saying of 13:8.

I realize this is one of those things that people don't want to let go of . . . but that's what the text shows.

Much love!

But if not for assumed use of language, why do you consider the parallel to show them both as not being "from" or before the foundation of the world? And with anticipation of your answer...how then does that reconcile with "predestinate?" Rom 8:29

 

[MatthewG]

It is really amazing, once you start having your eyes open to the possibility that everything has been fulfilled already, and you can become set in truth and spiritually free.

God bless all who have joined and participated, though who decide to talk back and forth between each other may do so, I can try to help on any question involving the Revelation but at the end of the day, you must think for yourself, and consider the evidences if you seek and search for them.

- #124 - Revelation 13 (footnotes)

 

[marks]

But if not for assumed use of language, why do you consider the parallel to show them both as not being "from" or before the foundation of the world? And with anticipation of your answer...how then does that reconcile with "predestinate?" Rom 8:29

Interpreting the ambiguous by the unambiguous.

Towards predestination, that is from God's foreknowledge, which remains as an independant doctrine. Regardless of when Jesus was crucified, or when names are written or blotted, still, God is omniscient.

Jesus was crucified in a terrestrial body in the terrestrial realm, at a point in history. So we're back to that time thing, but I still maintain that God placed us into a space/time continuum as our "duration and sequence", so we have have a perception of the progression of our lives.

Much love!

 

[Ziggy]

It’s hard for me to understand why people continue to believe that Satan is still around when he was a key player while the Law was intact but the Law is gone, it was done away with, the Law was given to Jewish people not Gentiles but people act as though sometimes they need to obey the Law given from Moses to the Israelites: it is useful but only useful to bring people to Christ.

Some say Job was around in the days of Adam.
There was no Moses Law back then.
So what is Satan's purpose?

The first time Satan is mentioned by name is when he provoked David:
1Ch 21:1 And Satan stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number Israel.

So David has the number of Israel counted, and God gets upset with him.
1Ch 21:7 And God was displeased with this thing; therefore he smote Israel.
1Ch 21:8 And David said unto God, I have sinned greatly, because I have done this thing: but now, I beseech thee, do away the iniquity of thy servant; for I have done very foolishly.

So David didn't do like Eve did, he didn't blame the serpent, but took the responsibility upon himself.

But David still had to be punished for allowing himself to be provoked. So God gave him 3 choices. Famine, War, or Pestilence.
David left it up to God to decide.

Now consider what happened to Job and what is about to happen to David. Only the "magnitude" is increased.

1Ch 21:14 So the LORD sent pestilence upon Israel: and there fell of Israel seventy thousand men.
1Ch 21:15 And God sent an angel unto Jerusalem to destroy it: and as he was destroying, the LORD beheld, and he repented him of the evil, and said to the angel that destroyed, It is enough, stay now thine hand. And the angel of the LORD stood by the threshingfloor of Ornan the Jebusite.
1Ch 21:16 And David lifted up his eyes, and saw the angel of the LORD stand between the earth and the heaven, having a drawn sword in his hand stretched out over Jerusalem. Then David and the elders of Israel, who were clothed in sackcloth, fell upon their faces.
1Ch 21:17 And David said unto God, Is it not I that commanded the people to be numbered? even I it is that have sinned and done evil indeed; but as for these sheep, what have they done? let thine hand, I pray thee, O LORD my God, be on me, and on my father's house; but not on thy people, that they should be plagued.

Integrity... wasn't that what Job had? Integrity.

Here we see Satan provoking God:
Job 2:3 And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil? and still he holdeth fast his integrity, although thou movedst me against him, to destroy him without cause.

Job 2:6 And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, he is in thine hand; but save his life.
Job 2:7 So went Satan forth from the presence of the LORD, and smote Job with sore boils from the sole of his foot unto his crown.

Seems to me Satan and this angel of the Lord, God sent to destroy Israel, could be the same entity.
Job was smote with boils and Israel was smote with pestilence. Seems he uses the same weapons too.

So who provoked the Lord and spilled the beans on David after David numbered Israel?
Who went to God and said.. You see what David just did?

1Ch 21:2 And David said to Joab and to the rulers of the people, Go, number Israel from Beersheba even to Dan; and bring the number of them to me, that I may know it.
1Ch 21:3 And Joab answered, The LORD make his people an hundred times so many more as they be: but, my lord the king, are they not all my lord's servants? why then doth my lord require this thing? why will he be a cause of trespass to Israel?
1Ch 21:4 Nevertheless the king's word prevailed against Joab. Wherefore Joab departed, and went throughout all Israel, and came to Jerusalem.
1Ch 21:5 And Joab gave the sum of the number of the people unto David. And all they of Israel were a thousand thousand and an hundred thousand men that drew sword: and Judah was four hundred threescore and ten thousand men that drew sword.
1Ch 21:6 But Levi and Benjamin counted he not among them: for the king's word was abominable to Joab.

Joab is an interesting character. He seems to like to question everything David does.

2Sa 3:24 Then Joab came to the king, and said, What hast thou done? behold, Abner came unto thee; why is it that thou hast sent him away, and he is quite gone?
2Sa 3:25 Thou knowest Abner the son of Ner, that he came to deceive thee, and to know thy going out and thy coming in, and to know all that thou doest.
2Sa 3:26 And when Joab was come out from David, he sent messengers after Abner, which brought him again from the well of Sirah: but David knew it not.

Who provoked David to number Israel?
When David had his mishap with Bathsheba, He didn't want to get found out. So he sent a letter to Joab.
Now Joab was in charge of the army. And it was Joab that placed Uriah Bathsheba's husband at the head of the line.
This is what we call a conspiracy.

Satan will be walking this earth until his ability to provoke people into doing bad things is gone.
Even Jesus called Peter Satan, because he tried to deter him from his path.
Judas conspired with the authorities to have Jesus captured.
As long as people allow themselves to be used, Satan will be walking among us seeking whom he can accuse before God and have us devoured.
That's why God gave us his Armor, and we should all be wearing it, all the time.

Hugs

 

[stunnedbygrace]

It makes "the earth" [which we have been called Israel]

Im not buying that. I would have to see how you arrived at it with scriptures that the whole earth= Israel there. But I don’t think that’s how you arrived at it, so I don’t think you can show it.

 

[ScottA]

Interpreting the ambiguous by the unambiguous.

Towards predestination, that is from God's foreknowledge, which remains as an independant doctrine. Regardless of when Jesus was crucified, or when names are written or blotted, still, God is omniscient.

Jesus was crucified in a terrestrial body in the terrestrial realm, at a point in history. So we're back to that time thing, but I still maintain that God placed us into a space/time continuum as our "duration and sequence", so we have have a perception of the progression of our lives.

Much love!

pre·des·ti·na·tion
noun

1. (as a doctrine in Christian theology) the divine foreordaining of all that will happen, especially with regard to the salvation of some and not others.

fore·or·dain
verb

1. (of God or fate) appoint or decree (something) beforehand.

That is all quite different than the idea of "foreknowledge". Either way, before is before...which if God has ordained something "before", then "foreknowledge" does not tell all. But God has told all in stating it as "before/from."

As for the matter of times...there is a beginning and there is an end, in the midst of which Christ (as you said) was crucified. Which explanation I would not think the world is ready for...but since you give me no choice: God being without time having ordained (ordered) the things in time, has indeed revealed them in real time. Meaning that the same thing that is written is enacted simultaneously, both in time to men, and out of time to God. Nonetheless, foreordained is foreordered, meaning before men come to the knowledge of it.

 

[MatthewG]

Im not buying that. I would have to see how you arrived at it with scriptures that the whole earth= Israel there. But I don’t think that’s how you arrived at it, so I don’t think you can show it.

It is not to far-fetched considering - earth or ge' can mean an economy of people thus Israel.

This is just in the middle of Revelation 13. There is whole bundle of other chapters to read and consider.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

It is not to far-fetched considering - earth or ge' can mean an economy of people thus Israel.

This is just in the middle of Revelation 13. There is whole bundle of other chapters to read and consider.

I’ll take your word on that but the verse doesn’t say, in ANY of the translations I gave earlier, “earth.” It says “the whole earth.”

And your argument last night was that “from one end of the earth to the other end of the earth” just means slain bodies only in the one localized area of Jerusalem.
I’m beginning to question your command of the English language…

 

[MatthewG]

Right, the whole earth - the whole economy of people in that area, now as mentioned earlier it suggested that KJV - said that whole world. That would be a different interoperation all together, in someone just reading that would think, oh the whole world at large. Just little side issues happen a lot throughout scriptures, Stunned.

 

[marks]

That is all quite different than the idea of "foreknowledge"

Whom He did foreknow, He also did predestinate . . .

I agree with what you wrote there, except that the ordered experience of man is in time.

Much love!