Why don’t you believe Satan has been defeated?

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stunnedbygrace

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@stunnedbygrace - 13:3 -

the notes beside each indication is the follow up by the next written part.

Revelation 13:

Previous:
#98




14 - Remarkable detail about Nero's campaign of persecution is that it lasted just over 42 months, which verses 5 - 8 record as the length of time that would be given to the beast to "war against and conquer the saints." The persecution ended when Nero died on June 9th, 68AD. In this context, Revelation 13:10 must have been a comfort to the saints as they were first told that the beast would only be allowed to persecute them for 3.5 years but the Revelation also [at verse 10] told them how their persecutor would be removed, saying "... he who kills with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and faith of the saints." [Verse 10] Nero ended his life by thrusting his sword through his own throat, with the help of his personal secretary, Epaphroditus, when he realized his popularity wanted and that a coup was in the making. Again fulfilling the words of this prophecy. [See Nero] [See Daniel 7:8,11,25;11:36; Revelation 11:2;12:6]





15 - His tabernacle could speak to the temple or the Lord Yeshua [see Yeshua: tabernacle of YHWH] [see John 1:14]


16 - Numerous church leaders during the first several centuries identified Nero as the beast of the book of Revelation or at least speculated that it was him. When they labeled him the beast this was synonymous with the anti-Christ as the two are often blended in interpretation. These included Clement of Alexandria [150-215 AD], Tertullian [160-220 AD], Augustine [354-430 AD] and Jerome [347-420 AD], who stated the following in his commentary on Daniel 11:27-30: "As for the Antichrist, there is no question but what he is going to fight against the holy covenant, and that when he first makes war against the king of Egypt, he shall straightway be frightened off by the assistance of the Romans. But these events were typically prefigured under Antiochus Epiphanes, so that this abominable king who persecuted God's people foreshadows the ANtichrist, who is to persecute the people of Christ. And so there are many of our viewpoint who think that Domitous Nero was the Anti Christ because of his outstanding savagery and depravity." The difficulty about this is the beast is certainly the Roman Empire [generally] and Nero [specifically].





17 - [see suffering, Christian] - [ see Acts 14:22; 26:18; Galatians 4:7; Philippians 1:29; 2 Timothy 2:11-12]


18 - [see Daniel 7:21; Revelation 11:7,18, 12:17; 17:15]





19 - From a fulfillment vantage point this verse refers "to all national Israel and here tribes" [see Exodus 32:32; Daniel 12:1]





20 - [See Matthew 11:15; 13:43; Luke 8:8; 14:35; Revelation 2:7]






21 - This appears to be a clear prophecy regarding how the Beast [in the singular sense] would be slain. If this is its meaning it would be taken as a comforting fact, helping the believers in Nero's day to endure through intense persecution [in light of this prophecy] while waiting for the end to come within thread and a half years. Nero martyred thousands [including Paul] by the sword, and Tertuliians [in his book, "Before Jerusalem's Fall] credits 'Nero's cruel sword' as providing the martyr's blood as "seed for the church". It's a historical fact that Nero also met his own suicidal Demis at the hand of a sword when he certainly could have taken poison. Therefore, he did indeed live and die by the sword. It was this even in June 68AD which brought an end to this most intense period of persecution against the Church/Bride. Again we know also that Nero fit the description of this beast [in the specific sense] with his forth-two month reign of persecution from November 64 - June 68 D [See verses 5-7], then with his death by the sword [ even as he had used the sword to cause death ] [see verse 10], and with his demand for worship fit the description of this Beast [in a general sense], with its identification as the fourth beast in Daniels similar vision [Daniel 7:1-8], and with the healing of the mortal wound suffered by one of its heads [Revelation 17:7-10] - See [Nero] - [ See Genesis 9:6; Isaiah 33:1, Matthew 26:52; Revelation 14:12.

Oh wait…I think I found what verse you think is mistranslated in KJV. Is it 13:3?
So here are some different translations to compare.

(KJV) 3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.

(MOUNCE) 3 The whole world marveled as they followed the beast

(NOG) All the people of the world were amazed and followed the beast.

(NAB) 3 I saw that one of its heads seemed to have been mortally wounded, but this mortal wound was healed. Fascinated, the whole world followed after the beast.

(NASB) 3 I saw one of his heads as if it had been fatally wounded, and his fatal wound was healed. And the whole earth was amazed and followed after the beast;

(NCB) 3 One of his heads appeared to me to have been mortally wounded, but its mortal wound had been healed. The whole world then became fascinated with the beast,

(NCV) Then the whole world was amazed and followed the beast.

So, do you see my problem? You are now saying it is mistranslated in every version I pulled up? And this is what we should do with Gods word when something doesn’t seem to fit our current view? Just say it has to be mistranslated in every translation? Isn’t that altering scripture to fit your view rather than letting scripture inform your view and renew your mind?






.
 
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ScottA

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Don’t get me wrong I understand that most believe that revelation is not completed yet, but if you would consider the contents and context of that book at written to 7 churches in Asia Minor, and that things were soon to come shortly to pass, why is it most Christian churches today continue to repeat that Yeshua is still coming back today, 2000 years later?

Why is it people don’t accept it as the truth of a coming to pass for them in that area and time? Some say John wrote many years after the destruction of Jerusalem, but then why doesn’t the revelation John write say “and don’t be like those who had fallen in Jerusalem”, or why doesn’t it say this is “for a future generation”.

Do not get me wrong I love you either way even if your a futurist but think for yourself for a moment, what is your hope in?

Is it in the destruction of everything you know now that is around you for Jesus to come back and vindicate for you on your behalf when the contents and context of the Bible almost always from Genesis to About Acts maybe 5? Is dealing with the nation of Israel upon until Paul shows up and goes out to the gentiles but also writes to a Jewish audience as well?

It’s hard for me to understand why people continue to believe that Satan is still around when he was a key player while the Law was intact but the Law is gone, it was done away with, the Law was given to Jewish people not Gentiles but people act as though sometimes they need to obey the Law given from Moses to the Israelites: it is useful but only useful to bring people to Christ.

So why is you don’t believe this?

“And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭20:10‬ ‭NIV‬‬
Revelation 20:10

You have a few issues in there, so will probably get feedback on each. But your basic premise of things "shortly coming to pass" around that time--not 2,000+ years later, is absolutely correct.

This premise is the same as "Today is the time of salvation." Meaning that the idea of a one-time grand finale at the end of human history, is complete error. Paul even elaborates to say that salvation comes "but to each one in his own order."

Likewise, when Jesus said "this generation"--if "today is the time of salvation" then that would be true of EVERY generation. "This" and "Today" both allow one to believe it is some special "generation" or "day", or "each in his own order" in that day and time one hears that knock at the door, which Jesus promised. And it is here that the matter becomes a matter of belief and of faith--in other words, if one does not believe or have the faith to receive the words just as they were spoken...then they are not ready to receive it, and so they will not receive it. Even so, “Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise.” was a message to all who "were" crucified with Christ. But those who do not believe it, will say, "Obviously that is not true or we would be raptured right then and there." as if it were not also explained that some are to be "alive and remain." And yet it is.

As for Satan still being around...the common misunderstanding is to think that just because the world is not perfect as yet and evil continues, means that the time has not yet come, and therefore they push it off to some imaginary mass future event. This too is unbelief and not understanding that Satan was indeed forever bound by his defeat at the cross--but also loosed for a "short" time "until the times of the gentiles are fulfilled"...which times are biblically called "a thousand years", which simply means "in the fulness of time."
 
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marks

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Why is it people don’t accept it as the truth of a coming to pass for them in that area and time? Some say John wrote many years after the destruction of Jerusalem, but then why doesn’t the revelation John write say “and don’t be like those who had fallen in Jerusalem”, or why doesn’t it say this is “for a future generation”.
Because I think that the Bible is intended to be understood in the standard way language is used.

Asking why it doesn't say this or that, these promote arguments from silence. We can speculate answers that suit us. But it's not the same as truth.

I know Dispensations is a bad word to many, but the truth is that there have been different ways God as worked with humanity over the course of history.

And it's true, tacho, can mean soon or suddenly, and we are admonished to not think of God as slow, instead think of Him as patient.

Jesus has not yet returned, has not yet regathered all of Isreal, has not yet gathered and judged the nations, has not taking His glorious throne in Jerusalem.

Wouldn't we know if He had?

Satan is not yet bound, the nations continue to be deceived.

Much love!
 
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MatthewG

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Revelation 13: previous #100


11 And I saw another beast - 22


coming up out of the land, and it had two horns, like a lamb, and it was speaking as a dragon, - 23


22 - No one is really sure who are what this second beast was. There does seem to be a general consensus, though, that this second beast is one and the same with the "false prophet" spoken of in Revelation 16:13; 19:20 and 20:10. In any case, we first notice that this second beast exercises "the authority " of the first beast [Identified above as Nero specifically and Roman generally]. It does so "in it's presence" [or "on its behalf", as the ESV puts it]. It makes "the earth" [which we have been called Israel] to worship the first beast [Nero/Rome] There are four different potential candidates for this second beast:


[1.] The Roman Concilia [ or what is known as the "the Cult of the Emperor]


[2.] A singular Jewish Leader or Governor [perhaps Gessisu Florus];


3 ,a collective of Jewish Leadership [Acts 4:24-28; 12:1-3; 13:8; 14:5; 17:5-8; 18:12-13; 21:11; 24:1-9; 25:2-3, 9, 24]; or


4 Vitellius, Rome's 9th Emperor. - [Because we have stayed with the sea being gentiles and this second beast rises up from the land, this view doesn't carry the same weight as do the second and third theories].


23 - [ see Revelation 11:7]


12 and all the authority of the first beast doth it do before it, and it maketh the land and those dwelling in it that they shall bow before the first beast, whose deadly stroke was healed, - 24


24 Historians Tacitus, Suetonius, and Zonaras all affirm that after Nero's death, proclamations continued to be published in his name as if he was still alive, and that his image was frequently placed upon the rostra [large speakers's platforms in Rome] "dressed in robes of state." Even Jewish and Christians writers began to exclaim that Nero was back from the dead as the dreaded "Beliar Demon". "Nerco committed suicide in June of AD 68. However a Rumor arose and persisted that he had not died but had fled across the Euphrates river to Rome's arch-enemy, Parthia." In the fact of this it was also said that one day Nero would return at the head of Parthian armies to destroy Rome. This view became the so-called "Nero redivides" myth. A second possibility is that it was the beast in the form of the Roman Empire which dramatically recovered from he mortal wound of one of its seven heads [ which was Nero]. This is inf act what happened in first century Rome and it wasn't until Vespasian took the throne in December 69AD, which initiated the Flavian Dynasty that stability was restored to the Empire [Revelation 13:3]



13 and it doth great signs, that fire also it may make to come down from the heaven to the earth before men, - 25


25 - [See Deuteronomy 13:1-3; 1 Kings 18:38; 2 Kings 1:10;12; Matthew 24:24; 2 Thessalonians 2:9; Revelation 16:14]



14 and it leadeth astray those dwelling on the land, because of the signs that were given it to do before the beast, saying to those dwelling upon the land to make an image to the beast that hath the stroke of the sword and did live, - 26


26 - Vitellius had such a rabid fascination with Nero that Vespasian had to "make a determined effort to check the growth of the "Nero Cult" when he came to power." In the time Revelation was written, it was common for the ancients to believe that statues spoke and performed miracles as the gods, [and demons] used statues as conduits to communicate with the humans and work miracles. Both Justin and Irenaeus wrote that the heretic Simon Magus is said to have "brought statues to life." [Clementine Recognitions 3.47; Justin, Apologia 1.26; Irenaeus, Against Heresies 1.23]. In ancient times, this was precisely the point of having idols; people thought that the life of a person or being was actually in the idol. In their book, Lat antiquity: A guide to the Postclassical World [1999], the authors [Brown, Bowersock, Grabar] write about the common sight of images of Roman Emperors in the third and fourth centuries. These images took prominent place throughout the empire and were literally worshiped. This was ordinary in the first century as well. Those who beheld Constantine in this golden raiment were said by Eusebius to be "stunned and amazed by the sight -- light children who have seen a frightening apparition." Away from court and capital however, Emperors rarely appeared in person.


In the provinces their presence was represented by statues and other images. As a result of all of this, municipal squares were dominated by imperial statues; the portraits of emperors hung in official buildings, shops, theaters, and public porticoes; in their range and variety, imperial images made emperors omnipresent. The crowd applauded not only the emperor but also his image as it was paraded around them, surrounded- like the emperor himself - by the imperial bodyguard.


These "mirror images of majesty" not only made permanent the transitory message of imperial ceremonial, but were designed to blur the distinction of between emperors and their representations. and those approaching an emperor's statue were required to prostrate themselves "not as though they were looking at a picture. but upon the very face of the emperor".


Statues of Nero's likeness already existed in the Roman Empire during his lifetime, even from early in his reign. In 55D, the second year of his reign, the Roman senate erected a statue of Nero in the Temple of Mars that stood between 110 and 120 feet high. One commentary reads "The emperor's brow was crowned with rays, suggesting a comparison or identification with the Sun-god." Additionally his portrait appeared on coins [at that time] as Apollo playing the lyre. Even his own mother, Agrippina, was hailed by provincial coins "as goddess and the parent of a god." We also know that inscriptions founded in Ephesus called Nero "Almighty God", and "Savior", and inscriptions found in Cyprus called him "God and Savior" [See 2 Kings 20:7; 2 Thessalonians 2:9-10; Revelation 12:9; 19:20]


15 and there was given to it to give a spirit to the image of the beast, that also the image of the beast may speak, - 27


and [that] it may cause as many as shall not bow before the image of the beast, that they may be killed. - 28


27 - See note above - 26


28 - See [ Revelation 16:2; 19:20; 20:4]
 

MatthewG

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Oh wait…I think I found what verse you think is mistranslated in KJV. Is it 13:3?
So here are some different translations to compare.

(KJV) 3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.

(MOUNCE) 3 The whole world marveled as they followed the beast

(NOG) All the people of the world were amazed and followed the beast.

(NAB) 3 I saw that one of its heads seemed to have been mortally wounded, but this mortal wound was healed. Fascinated, the whole world followed after the beast.

(NASB) 3 I saw one of his heads as if it had been fatally wounded, and his fatal wound was healed. And the whole earth was amazed and followed after the beast;

(NCB) 3 One of his heads appeared to me to have been mortally wounded, but its mortal wound had been healed. The whole world then became fascinated with the beast,

(NCV) Then the whole world was amazed and followed the beast.

So, do you see my problem? You are now saying it is mistranslated in every version I pulled up? And this is what we should do with Gods word when something doesn’t seem to fit our current view? Just say it has to be mistranslated in every translation? Isn’t that altering scripture to fit your view rather than letting scripture inform your view and renew your mind?






.

Always refer back to greek, there you will find an answer. There is also something called the Critical Text, read about it on ask questions, see it what you think about it.

I enjoy many different translations of the Bible, but for crucial anaylsis you wanna try to go back as far as you can to get the right definition. Remember how we talked about - how earth means - land? - Earth also is representative of Israel, and sea - is representative of Gentile nations.




~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
(noted link for self - #104)
 

MatthewG

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Because I think that the Bible is intended to be understood in the standard way language is used.

Asking why it doesn't say this or that, these promote arguments from silence. We can speculate answers that suit us. But it's not the same as truth.

I know Dispensations is a bad word to many, but the truth is that there have been different ways God as worked with humanity over the course of history.

And it's true, tacho, can mean soon or suddenly, and we are admonished to not think of God as slow, instead think of Him as patient.

Jesus has not yet returned, has not yet regathered all of Isreal, has not yet gathered and judged the nations, has not taking His glorious throne in Jerusalem.

Wouldn't we know if He had?

Satan is not yet bound, the nations continue to be deceived.

Much love!

Thank you for sharing your thoughts on the subject Marks.
 

MatthewG

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You have a few issues in there, so will probably get feedback on each. But your basic premise of things "shortly coming to pass" around that time--not 2,000+ years later, is absolutely correct.

This premise is the same as "Today is the time of salvation." Meaning that the idea of a one-time grand finale at the end of human history, is complete error. Paul even elaborates to say that salvation comes "but to each one in his own order."

Likewise, when Jesus said "this generation"--if "today is the time of salvation" then that would be true of EVERY generation. "This" and "Today" both allow one to believe it is some special "generation" or "day", or "each in his own order" in that day and time one hears that knock at the door, which Jesus promised. And it is here that the matter becomes a matter of belief and of faith--in other words, if one does not believe or have the faith to receive the words just as they were spoken...then they are not ready to receive it, and so they will not receive it. Even so, “Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise.” was a message to all who "were" crucified with Christ. But those who do not believe it, will say, "Obviously that is not true or we would be raptured right then and there." as if it were not also explained that some are to be "alive and remain." And yet it is.

As for Satan still being around...the common misunderstanding is to think that just because the world is not perfect as yet and evil continues, means that the time has not yet come, and therefore they push it off to some imaginary mass future event. This too is unbelief and not understanding that Satan was indeed forever bound by his defeat at the cross--but also loosed for a "short" time "until the times of the gentiles are fulfilled"...which times are biblically called "a thousand years", which simply means "in the fulness of time."

Thank you for sharing what you have, ScottA. I do not have anything to add here. Keep pressing forward.
 

Hidden In Him

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So why is you don’t believe this?

“And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭20:10‬ ‭NIV‬‬
Revelation 20:10

Matthew, I find your OP a little nonsensical, LoL. So nonsensical that while I've tried to respond a few times I'm not sure it deserves much of a response, so I haven't until now.

I don't mean to be insulting, but your stock goes down when you post threads like this. They are so far off base theologically as to be deeply heretical.

God bless,
- H
 

ScottA

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Matthew, I find your OP a little nonsensical, LoL. So nonsensical that while I've tried to respond a few times I'm not sure it deserves much of a response, so I haven't until now.

I don't mean to be insulting, but your stock goes down when you post threads like this. They are so far off base theologically as to be deeply heretical.

God bless,
- H
Since you have not been specific...do you mean to say that the premise here is as far off as to think that anyone born after the times of Christ who believes they "were crucified with Christ" 2,000 years ago, is being "nonsensical"...or any number of other hard biblical sayings that many think to be crazy?
 

Hidden In Him

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Since you have not been specific...do you mean to say that the premise here is as far off as to think that anyone born after the times of Christ who believes they "were crucified with Christ" 2,000 years ago, is being "nonsensical?"

Hi Scott.

You'd have to ask this one again. It reads like you left out a few sentences and short-handed the question.
 

ScottA

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Hi Scott.

You'd have to ask this one again. It reads like you left out a few sentences and short-handed the question.
Sure. "Nonsensical" may very well be the qualification that makes any number of biblical "hard sayings" actually true. Yet, it would appear that you mean to suggest that it qualifies to be just the opposite.

Certainly among us, we could look at and debate such ideas as crazy, but when Jesus said any number of hard sayings, they were not crazy, but only appeared to be by those who could not hear them. I mean, a bystander may very well have agreed with Nicodemus rather than Jesus regarding being born again, and Peter might have also walked away rather than consider actually eating Jesus' flesh and drinking his blood, etc., etc.
 
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marks

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the Critical Text,
Check out the Majority Manuscript. This is the Text of the Bible from those Manuscripts which show 99.5% agreement. The Critical Text comes from manuscripts that show shamefully far less agreement. And look at where they were found! Older is NOT better. Older is "lost to the sands of time", while God declares His faithfulness to all generations, even those. His Word has remained, not hid for centuries and centuries.

Much love!
 
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Hidden In Him

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Sure. "Nonsensical" may very well be the qualification that makes any number of biblical "hard sayings" actually true. Yet, it would appear that you mean to suggest that it qualifies to be just the opposite.

Certainly among us, we could look at and debate such ideas as crazy, but when Jesus said any number of hard sayings, they were not crazy, but only appeared to be by those who could not hear them. I mean, a bystander may very well have agreed with Nicodemus rather than Jesus regarding being born again, and Peter might have also walked away rather than consider actually eating Jesus' flesh and drinking his blood, etc., etc.

I see.

Yes, I agree that there were indeed some hard sayings in scripture, particularly in the teachings of Jesus, but many of them were harder at the time than they are for us now in hindsight. But maybe that goes to point, because it was the early church that discerned the meanings of His hard sayings, and in doing so laid down the doctrines that we were to go by, and while they taught Satan's defeat in the harrowing of Hell, they didn't teach that he was somehow "defeated" in the absolute sense of the word yet. Quite to the contrary. They continued to depict Satan as someone who was attacking the early church, and attempting to keep them from preaching the gospel.

17 But we, brethren, having been taken away from you for a short time in presence, not in heart, endeavored more eagerly to see your face with great desire. 18 Therefore we wanted to come to you—even I, Paul, time and again—but Satan hindered us.
 

ScottA

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Jesus has not yet returned, has not yet regathered all of Isreal, has not yet gathered and judged the nations, has not taking His glorious throne in Jerusalem.

Wouldn't we know if He had?

Satan is not yet bound, the nations continue to be deceived.
Why would you think this?

Do you not think "it is finished" for those who have passed on "each in his own order?" Or that Christ did not knock on that door and entered in as promised, "each in his own order?" Are we to be the measure and time of when Jesus returns to everyone, and will they all return for our sake when we are ready, rather than when they and Jesus are ready? Does the world and salvation revolve around our idea of the timing?

Was Jesus not slain before the foundation of the world, and we who are His not crucified with Him some 2,000 years ago? What has time to do with any of it?!

But I will stop before calling such thinking foolishness.
 

MatthewG

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Matthew, I find your OP a little nonsensical, LoL. So nonsensical that while I've tried to respond a few times I'm not sure it deserves much of a response, so I haven't until now.

I don't mean to be insulting, but your stock goes down when you post threads like this. They are so far off base theologically as to be deeply heretical.

God bless,
- H

And all I can choose to do is relish in Gods good grace my friend. despite what people think, I must love them either way!

Thank you sharing your thoughts.
 

Hidden In Him

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And all I can choose to do is relish in Gods good grace my friend. despite what people think, I must love them either way!

Thank you sharing your thoughts.

It is good to enjoy God's grace, but you need to be careful about assuming the role of teacher. James said they will bear the greater judgment.

If you have honest questions yourself, better to simply pose things as questions than assume you hold the answer when it comes to questions like this. Once you take on a role of being a spiritual authority you will be held accountable.

Just a friendly word of warning is all.

God bless,
- H
 
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MatthewG

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Let them judge, God will either sit me in my place, or help me stand, you see.

see [1 Corinthians 10:29; Romans 14:4]
 
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