Why I believe in the rapture.

[Heart2Soul]

Gotquestions.org?

And? I always give my source...
There is plenty of scripture to look up the authors are extremely knowledgeable.

 

[Nancy]

Why I reject the rapture theory:

The belief and teaching that all humans have natural immortality via an immortal soul can be traced back thousands of years. We can see from history that nations like Egypt and Babylon taught their people about an immortal soul in every human, that continued to live, to think and to experience life, after the body had died. Depending on the nation and on their spiritual theology they had, would come various teachings about where and under what conditions this immortal soul would experience after the death of the physical body. Some nations would bury the dead body in graves with all kinds of things for the departed to take with them and to use to enjoy in the afterlife.

Different nations may have had different places where the departed soul would live when it left the dead body, but to put it in simple language, the immortal soul was in a "heaven" of some sort. They even had gloomy underworlds for those not thought to have done enough good in their physical lives to warrant the prize of "heaven."

All this should start to sound somewhat familiar with certain teaching and beliefs of many Christian churches and organizations. Many have heard the "hell-fire and brimstone" sermons preached loud and vigorously by a Christian minister or Camp-meeting tent revivalist. Such preaching of course includes telling you that if you "give your heart to the Lord" and turn from sin, you can "go to heaven" and live in bliss, doing...well they are not sure, maybe singing and strumming on a harp?

Just about all Christians today believe they shall "get to heaven" one day. They firmly believe that going to heaven is one of the basic rewards of being Christian. To think, and to teach

otherwise, to them, is pretty close to being a nutty and strange heretic. They are convinced the Bible shows and tells us that going to heaven is the automatic reward of the children of God. And most believe that going to heaven takes place when the physical body stops breathing and dies. Yet this common and prevailing theological view was not the common view or teaching of the early New Testament Church of God.

The early NT church did not teach or believe in going to heaven at death, for those faithful Christians. Church history shows that it was only through the teachings of people like Clement of Alexandria, Origen, and others that most professing Christians gradually came to adopt the belief of the immortal soul, and going immediately "somewhere" after the death of the body. Many were coming into the popular church of the Roman Empire, founded in Rome, who already held to Hellenistic philosophy, Egyptian mythology, and Babylonian Mystery religions, with an after death life of some sort as the foundation of it all. They did not want to give up this teaching and belief, just as they did not want to abandon many other false teachings and practices. So, to accommodate them the large popular church took many of these old pagan beliefs and re-clothed them with Christian garments. Hence, as the millenniums came and went today's doctrines of the immortal soul as taught together with an ever burning hell fire for the wicked, a purgatory for those who may not have sinned unto eternal torment, and can possibly yet be granted heaven and a heaven where God is, for the righteous. All this came to be church doctrines.

Most Christians believe they will at some point "get to heaven" where God is dwelling. Some do not believe you go to heaven at death, but that death is a sleep until the resurrection, then when Jesus returns to raise the righteous dead, all go back with Him to heaven for a thousand years, until the new earth comes into being. Others believe that Christ returns to "rapture" His Church away from the terrible tribulation then taking place on the earth, and that they spent either 7 years or 3 1/2 years in heaven, before returning again with Christ to set up the Kingdom of God on earth for a thousand years.

Whatever the various beliefs of certain religious sects and denominations is on this matter, just about all of them teach and believe that the good Christian will someday, for some period of time "go to heaven" where the Father lives and dwells in the heavenly Jerusalem.

IF WE SHALL GO TO HEAVEN ONE DAY....

And if this is a fundamental plain teaching of the Bible, then surely we should be able to find many verses all over the Bible saying things such as: "When we get to heaven," "When we see each other in heaven," "They are up there in heaven with God," "We shall go to heaven at Christ's return," "We shall be in heaven where God is one day." BUT VERSES LIKE THIS CANNOT BE FOUND IN THE BIBLE!

BUT, what we do read in the Bible is the Words of Jesus: No man goes to heaven, except the One who came from there. John 3:13 Where I go, you cannot come. John 7:34 Your home is in this world, Mine is not. John 8:23 I do not pray, Father, that You take them out of this world.... John 17:15

So the truth is, the idea of a 'rapture to heaven', is a straight out Satanic lie; one of his most successful ones, that will cause many unprepared Christians to fall on the Day of trial. 1 Peter 4:12, 1 Corinthians 3:13-15


Most Christians think that heaven is our destination and preachers tout it from the pulpit. Why then didn't the people of the Bible use such language? Could it be that they knew that going off to heaven where God the Father now dwells was NEVER promised to any earthy mortal person?

The word "heaven" is used 570 times in the Bible. "Heavenly" appears 23 times and "heavens" is used 121 times. Surely, somewhere, in all those uses we can find a statement: "When we are in heaven" or "We are going to go to heaven" or maybe "He has gone to God in heaven." If you take a Bible concordance you can find all the verses where "heaven," "heavenly," and heavens" are used throughout the Bible. Look them up! See if you can find a verse that says, "We shall go to heaven," "Heaven is our eternal abode," "They are up in heaven" or any plain statement about Christians or children of God going to be with God in heaven for ANY length of time. You have over 500 places where "heaven" is used. Try to find any verse that tells us clearly we shall someday, sometime, go to live where God the Father dwells.

There are THREE heavens mentioned in the Bible. 1) The heaven [atmosphere] where the birds fly. 2) the heaven [space] where the planets and stars are. 3) The heaven [spiritual] where God's throne is, where God is now.

I knew a man in Christ.... caught up to the THIRD heaven....He was caught up into Paradise, and heard unspeakable words....2 Cor. 12:2-4 The third heaven is where God dwells!


KINGDOM OF HEAVEN ?

Some will say, "Well Christ talked about our being in the Kingdom of heaven. Surely that proves we shall 'go to heaven'. If it does, then some shall be in heaven while others are not. Matthew 5:3-5. Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the Kingdom of heaven....blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the earth. The Kingdom OF heaven is the Kingdom that BELONGS to heaven. It is owned and operated by heaven. the Kingdom that BELONGS to God, not the Kingdom inside God. The Gospels according to Mark and Luke use "Kingdom OF God"


OUR REWARD IS IN HEAVEN

Is not our reward to go to heaven? Are there not some verses that say something to that effect? Here they are: Rejoice, and be exceeding glad; for great is your reward in heaven.... Matthew 5:12 Do not display your religion before others, if you do you will have no reward from your Father in heaven. Matthew 6:1 But lay up for yourselves treasure in heaven.....Luke 6:23 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled…reserved in heaven for you. 1 Peter 1:4

Now, let's be honest. Do the above verses say: "Our reward is to get to heaven" or "When we get to heaven we shall be given our reward." Do these verses say: "Our reserved inheritance is to get to heaven to be with God" ? No, they do not! Truly, Christians will receive rewards and we are to inherit eternal life, but when? Eternal life comes at the resurrection. Read 1 Cor.15; Rev.2:10; 2 Tim.4:8 Our rewards are to be given to us by Christ at His return. And, behold, I come quickly, and MY REWARD IS WITH ME, to give every man according as his work shall be.

Rev. 22:12 Our rewards and inheritance are reserved in heaven. They come down out of heaven with Christ at his return.


NAMED TO GO TO HEAVEN?

Are not Christians named and written down in a book to go to heaven? ….but rather rejoice, because your names are written in heaven Luke 10:20 To the general assembly and church of

the firstborn, which are written in heaven....Heb. 12:23

Do these verses say, "Because you will go to heaven" or "The church of the firstborn will one day get to heaven" ? No! Our names (God knows who are His) are written down in the book of

life, the book of life being in heaven. But we receive life eternal after the Great White Throne Judgement, when the Book of Life is opened. Revelation 20:11-15

Awesome brother,
You have this stuff pretty well studied. It has been my belief for awhile now that no human being will be in heaven...as God is going to create a NEW Earth...and a New Heaven (not sure which "heaven" He speaks of here)
And yes, our "gift" is Christ in Heaven. Heaven is the home of God and heavenly creatures. Can you see the new Earth being as one big garden of Eden?

He will reign on the New Earth IMHO where all tears will be wiped away, no more sickness or death or evil. That sure sounds like heaven to me!

I'd like to comment on much more but, not as well versed on this.

Good post.

 

[Truth7t7]

Awesome brother,
You have this stuff pretty well studied. It has been my belief for awhile now that no human being will be in heaven...as God is going to create a NEW Earth...and a New Heaven (not sure which "heaven" He speaks of here)
And yes, our "gift" is Christ in Heaven. Heaven is the home of God and heavenly creatures. Can you see the new Earth being as one big garden of Eden?

He will reign on the New Earth IMHO where all tears will be wiped away, no more sickness or death or evil. That sure sounds like heaven to me!

I'd like to comment on much more but, not as well versed on this.

Good post.

Jesus Christ Returns In Fire And Final Judgement, Dissolving This Existing Earth By Fire, Immediately After The Tribulation

This Existing Heaven And Earth Will Be (Replaced) By The New Heaven, Earth, Jerusalem, A New Creation, At The Return Of Jesus Christ

(Behold, I Make All Things New)

2 Peter 3:10-13KJV
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Revelation 21:1-5KJV
1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

Matthew 24:29-30KJV
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

1 Corinthians 3:13KJV
13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

Luke 17:29-30KJV
29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

2 Thessalonians 1:7-9KJV
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

Malachi 3:2KJV
2 But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap:

Psalm 46:6KJV
6 The heathen raged, the kingdoms were moved: he uttered his voice, the earth melted.

Psalm 50:3KJV
3 Our God shall come, and shall not keep silence: a fire shall devour before him, and it shall be very tempestuous round about him.

Psalm 97:5KJV
5 The hills melted like wax at the presence of the Lord, at the presence of the Lord of the whole earth.

Isaiah 66:15KJV
15 For, behold, the Lord will come with fire, and with his chariots like a whirlwind, to render his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire.

Zechariah 14:12KJV
12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the Lord will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.

Nahum 1:5-6KJV
5 The mountains quake at him, and the hills melt, and the earth is burned at his presence, yea, the world, and all that dwell therein.
6 Who can stand before his indignation? and who can abide in the fierceness of his anger? his fury is poured out like fire, and the rocks are thrown down by him.

Revelation 20:9KJV
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

 

[Taken]

KINGDOM OF HEAVEN ?

Is not our reward to go to heaven? Are there not some verses that say something to that effect? Here they are: Rejoice, and be exceeding glad; for great is your reward in heaven.... Matthew 5:12 Do not display your religion before others, if you do you will have no reward from your Father in heaven. Matthew 6:1 But lay up for yourselves treasure in heaven.....Luke 6:23 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled…reserved in heaven for you. 1 Peter 1:4

Now, let's be honest. Do the above verses say: "Our reward is to get to heaven" or "When we get to heaven we shall be given our reward." Do these verses say: "Our reserved inheritance is to get to heaven to be with God" ? No, they do not!

Okay, let's be honest.

Matt 7:
[21] Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

BTW, this thread is about the Rapture, which the Rapture is not about going to Heaven.

 

[David H.]

 

[Keraz]

One thing I do know, Jesus wont be on this earth with mortal humans

Revelation 1:7 Look; Jesus is coming in the clouds, everyone will se Him..... and the world shall lament in remorse.

What we all do know by now, is your forcefully promoted belief about the Return of Jesus and the Amil theory, is quite wrong.

 

[Keraz]

Matt 7:
[21] Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

The Kingdom of Heaven will be on earth, as Revelation 21:1-7 makes clear.
Before that, there will be the 1000 year Kingdom of Jesus.

 

[Truth7t7]

Revelation 1:7 Look; Jesus is coming in the clouds, everyone will se Him..... and the world shall lament in remorse.

What we all do know by now, is your forcefully promoted belief about the Return of Jesus and the Amil theory, is quite wrong.

Your In "Denial" Of God's Words Before Your Eyes

Jesus Christ Returns In Fire And Final Judgement, Dissolving This Existing Earth By Fire, Immediately After The Tribulation

This Existing Heaven And Earth Will Be (Replaced) By The New Heaven, Earth, Jerusalem, A New Creation, At The Return Of Jesus Christ

(Behold, I Make All Things New)

2 Peter 3:10-13KJV
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Revelation 21:1-5KJV
1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

Matthew 24:29-30KJV
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

1 Corinthians 3:13KJV
13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

Luke 17:29-30KJV
29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

2 Thessalonians 1:7-9KJV
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

Malachi 3:2KJV
2 But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap:

Psalm 46:6KJV
6 The heathen raged, the kingdoms were moved: he uttered his voice, the earth melted.

Psalm 50:3KJV
3 Our God shall come, and shall not keep silence: a fire shall devour before him, and it shall be very tempestuous round about him.

Psalm 97:5KJV
5 The hills melted like wax at the presence of the Lord, at the presence of the Lord of the whole earth.

Isaiah 66:15KJV
15 For, behold, the Lord will come with fire, and with his chariots like a whirlwind, to render his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire.

Zechariah 14:12KJV
12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the Lord will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.

Nahum 1:5-6KJV
5 The mountains quake at him, and the hills melt, and the earth is burned at his presence, yea, the world, and all that dwell therein.
6 Who can stand before his indignation? and who can abide in the fierceness of his anger? his fury is poured out like fire, and the rocks are thrown down by him.

Revelation 20:9KJV
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

 

[David H.]

The Kingdom of Heaven will be on earth, as Revelation 21:1-7 makes clear.
Before that, there will be the 1000 year Kingdom of Jesus.

Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence. (John 18:36)

 

[Taken]

Why I believe in the rapture.
OP ^

Inanutshell:
Read the wrath, wrath, wrath revealed in the account of the Tribulation in Revelations...

1 Thes 5:
[9] For God hath not appointed us to wrath...

Glory, Glory, Glory to Our Great God Almighty.

Taken

 

[Keraz]

Why I believe in the rapture.
OP ^

Inanutshell:
Read the wrath, wrath, wrath revealed in the account of the Tribulation in Revelations...

1 Thes 5:
[9] For God hath not appointed us to wrath...

Glory, Glory, Glory to Our Great God Almighty.

Taken

But it is very evident that we must all pass thru His wrath. As 1 Peter 4:12 says: it will be our time of trial.

Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence. (John 18:36)

Explain then: Why must Jesus Return? If this world is never to be His Kingdom. Revelation 1:7

 

[Randy Kluth]

There are a lot of Questions when the rapture will take place, But the main reason i believe there will be a rapture is that this is how God has acted in the past.

The righteous chosen ones have never been allowed to see the wrath of God.
Noah was sealed in an ark, Lot and His family were told not to look back. Israel and their families were protected by the passover blood, and we as the church are made righteous by the blood of the lamb of God will be protected.

Whether this rapture is as they show in movies or some other form of protection I do not think Scripture is clear, but I do know the church, the saints will not witness the Wrath of God.... The wrath of Satan and the wrath of the lamb are two different things all together.

National Israel on the other hand will witness the wrath of God, and drink of the cup of the wrath of God till they are drunk and then be spared.

That seems like a contradiction. The saints never experience God's wrath, and yet Israel, who will be spared, will indeed experience God's wrath? If Israel, who will be spared, will suffer God's wrath, why wouldn't the saints experience God's wrath, as well? What is it that exempts one people of God from God's wrath, but not another people of God?

If you are really saying that Israel will be *disciplined* by God when they experience God's wrath, then why wouldn't the Church also suffer God's discipline? In fact, we are told that all Christians *must* experience discipline, or be considered illegitimate children!

But I think that God's wrath and God's discipline are too separate things. And indeed, the saints are said to be spared from God's wrath in the sense of its being an eternal judgment. God's wrath may be expressed in different ways, and how it is used is determined by how the words are being used in context. If the context is discipline, then the saints do experience God's wrath temporarily. If the context is eternal separation from God, then the saints do not experience God's eternal wrath.

But I think it's a very different thing to say that the saints are exempted from God's wrath in the sense of going through a time in which God's wrath against the wicked also affects the saints. Certainly, when God sent the flood against the world in Noah's day, that same flood affected Noah's family as well! They experienced the time and effects of the flood, but they did not experience God's wrath directed against them!

So Pretribbers get all worked up believing that Christians cannot go through a time of wrath such as the time of Antichrist's rule. In fact, it is not Antichrist's rule that renders it a "time of wrath." Rather, it is the outcome of his rule that is considered a time of wrath, namely the bringing of his rule to an end.

Christians will, I think, go through this time of wrath because they will experience the effects of the outcome of God's wrath directed against the Antichrist. But this does not mean that God's wrath is being directed against the saints--only that God allows the saints to suffer the side effects of being in the same world the same time that Antichrist is waging war and ultimately coming under God's judgment.

 

[Truth7t7]

Explain then: Why must Jesus Return? If this world is never to be His Kingdom. Revelation 1:7

The Explanation Is Before Your Eyes, (Final Judgement)

Jesus Christ Returns In Fire And Final Judgement, Dissolving This Existing Earth By Fire, Immediately After The Tribulation

This Existing Heaven And Earth Will Be (Replaced) By The New Heaven, Earth, Jerusalem, A New Creation, At The Return Of Jesus Christ

(Behold, I Make All Things New)

2 Peter 3:10-13KJV
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Revelation 21:1-5KJV
1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

Matthew 24:29-30KJV
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

1 Corinthians 3:13KJV
13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

Luke 17:29-30KJV
29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

2 Thessalonians 1:7-9KJV
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

Malachi 3:2KJV
2 But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap:

Psalm 46:6KJV
6 The heathen raged, the kingdoms were moved: he uttered his voice, the earth melted.

Psalm 50:3KJV
3 Our God shall come, and shall not keep silence: a fire shall devour before him, and it shall be very tempestuous round about him.

Psalm 97:5KJV
5 The hills melted like wax at the presence of the Lord, at the presence of the Lord of the whole earth.

Isaiah 66:15KJV
15 For, behold, the Lord will come with fire, and with his chariots like a whirlwind, to render his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire.

Zechariah 14:12KJV
12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the Lord will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.

Nahum 1:5-6KJV
5 The mountains quake at him, and the hills melt, and the earth is burned at his presence, yea, the world, and all that dwell therein.
6 Who can stand before his indignation? and who can abide in the fierceness of his anger? his fury is poured out like fire, and the rocks are thrown down by him.

Revelation 20:9KJV
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

 

[Truth7t7]

But it is very evident that we must all pass thru His wrath. As 1 Peter 4:12 says: it will be our time of trial.

We Must All Pass Through His Wrath?

1 Peter 4:12 dosent show Gods wrath upon the "Church" as you claim, its speaks of trials and testing

Just more false claims added to the long list

1 Peter 4:12-14KJV
12 Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you:
13 But rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ's sufferings; that, when his glory shall be revealed, ye may be glad also with exceeding joy.
14 If ye be reproached for the name of Christ, happy are ye; for the spirit of glory and of God resteth upon you: on their part he is evil spoken of, but on your part he is glorified.

 

[Truth7t7]

That seems like a contradiction. The saints never experience God's wrath, and yet Israel, who will be spared, will indeed experience God's wrath? If Israel, who will be spared, will suffer God's wrath, why wouldn't the saints experience God's wrath, as well? What is it that exempts one people of God from God's wrath, but not another people of God?

If you are really saying that Israel will be *disciplined* by God when they experience God's wrath, then why wouldn't the Church also suffer God's discipline? In fact, we are told that all Christians *must* experience discipline, or be considered illegitimate children!

But I think that God's wrath and God's discipline are too separate things. And indeed, the saints are said to be spared from God's wrath in the sense of its being an eternal judgment. God's wrath may be expressed in different ways, and how it is used is determined by how the words are being used in context. If the context is discipline, then the saints do experience God's wrath temporarily. If the context is eternal separation from God, then the saints do not experience God's eternal wrath.

But I think it's a very different thing to say that the saints are exempted from God's wrath in the sense of going through a time in which God's wrath against the wicked also affects the saints. Certainly, when God sent the flood against the world in Noah's day, that same flood affected Noah's family as well! They experienced the time and effects of the flood, but they did not experience God's wrath directed against them!

So Pretribbers get all worked up believing that Christians cannot go through a time of wrath such as the time of Antichrist's rule. In fact, it is not Antichrist's rule that renders it a "time of wrath." Rather, it is the outcome of his rule that is considered a time of wrath, namely the bringing of his rule to an end.

Christians will, I think, go through this time of wrath because they will experience the effects of the outcome of God's wrath directed against the Antichrist. But this does not mean that God's wrath is being directed against the saints--only that God allows the saints to suffer the side effects of being in the same world the same time that Antichrist is waging war and ultimately coming under God's judgment.

The (Two Witnesses) Rule The Tribulation, Not The Antichrist (Fact)

The Great Tribulation Will Be Upon The Antichrist And Wicked, The Church Is Protected, "Dont Be Deceived"

There's Going To Be An End Times Persecution, The Beast And His Kingdom Are The Target Of God's Empowered (Two Witnesses)

The Great Tribulation Will Come Upon The Wicked World, While The (Sealed Church) Is Protected

The (Sealed Church) will be present on earth and protected, when wicked men are tormented 5 months, desiring to die as death flees

All saved believers are (Sealed) by God, Eph 1:13, 4:30

Ephesians 1:13KJV
13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

Ephesians 4:30KJV
30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

It Was Commanded, Only Those Without God's Seal Will Be Tormented, The Sealed Church Is Protected

Revelation 9:3-6KJV
3 And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power.
4 And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.
5 And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man.
6 And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them.

Plagues upon The Beast and his Kingdom, a remake of Moses/Aaron against Pharaoh of Egypt

Revelation 11:3-6
3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.
5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.
6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.

Revelation 16:1-11KJV
1 And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth.
2 And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image.
3 And the second angel poured out his vial upon the sea; and it became as the blood of a dead man: and every living soul died in the sea.
4 And the third angel poured out his vial upon the rivers and fountains of waters; and they became blood.
5 And I heard the angel of the waters say, Thou art righteous, O Lord, which art, and wast, and shalt be, because thou hast judged thus.
6 For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets, and thou hast given them blood to drink; for they are worthy.
7 And I heard another out of the altar say, Even so, Lord God Almighty, true and righteous are thy judgments.
8 And the fourth angel poured out his vial upon the sun; and power was given unto him to scorch men with fire.
9 And men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed the name of God, which hath power over these plagues: and they repented not to give him glory.
10 And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain,
11 And blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and repented not of their deeds.

 

[David H.]

That seems like a contradiction. The saints never experience God's wrath, and yet Israel, who will be spared, will indeed experience God's wrath? If Israel, who will be spared, will suffer God's wrath, why wouldn't the saints experience God's wrath, as well? What is it that exempts one people of God from God's wrath, but not another people of God?

If you are really saying that Israel will be *disciplined* by God when they experience God's wrath, then why wouldn't the Church also suffer God's discipline? In fact, we are told that all Christians *must* experience discipline, or be considered illegitimate children!

But I think that God's wrath and God's discipline are too separate things. And indeed, the saints are said to be spared from God's wrath in the sense of its being an eternal judgment. God's wrath may be expressed in different ways, and how it is used is determined by how the words are being used in context. If the context is discipline, then the saints do experience God's wrath temporarily. If the context is eternal separation from God, then the saints do not experience God's eternal wrath.

But I think it's a very different thing to say that the saints are exempted from God's wrath in the sense of going through a time in which God's wrath against the wicked also affects the saints. Certainly, when God sent the flood against the world in Noah's day, that same flood affected Noah's family as well! They experienced the time and effects of the flood, but they did not experience God's wrath directed against them!

So Pretribbers get all worked up believing that Christians cannot go through a time of wrath such as the time of Antichrist's rule. In fact, it is not Antichrist's rule that renders it a "time of wrath." Rather, it is the outcome of his rule that is considered a time of wrath, namely the bringing of his rule to an end.

Christians will, I think, go through this time of wrath because they will experience the effects of the outcome of God's wrath directed against the Antichrist. But this does not mean that God's wrath is being directed against the saints--only that God allows the saints to suffer the side effects of being in the same world the same time that Antichrist is waging war and ultimately coming under God's judgment.

For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ, (1 Thessalonians 5:9)

Israel the nation has not been made righteous by the blood, and it is the righteous that are spared from the wrath.... Remember Lot's wife, she looked back and yearned for the past, The Israleites in the wilderness doubted in the providence of God to overcome the giants in the land, These are the likes of the people here who are doubting the rapture in this day and age and denying our eternal heavenly home the Promised Land, and these will be the ones that are not looking up and waiting who will be caught off guard when he comes as a thief in the night.

Israel must drink of the cup of the wrath of God till she is drunk (Isaiah 51:17)

The righteous will be spared from the wrath. some scriptures as proofs.
He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him. (John 3:36)
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; (Romans 1:18) continue reading this section from here to Romans 2:16
Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him. (Romans 5:9) Read Romans 5:8-11 to appreciate the full context of this promise!
And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come. (1 Thessalonians 1:10)
Hebrews 3:1-4:16 Both chapters, and understand what entering his resting place means.
Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness. ( 2Peter 3:13)

The question then becomes when does the wrath of God begin? You see Israel like Egypt had to deal with the plagues and the tribulations that preceded the wrath of God, but were protected by the blood of the lamb from the angel of the Lord and were protected behind sealed doors. Noah had to deal with the flood but they were sealed in the ark and protected. The rapture is the same, the righteous will not witness the wrath of God and will be sealed in an ark of protection in this time, but they will have to deal with plagues and tribulations before this divine protection occurs, and those who doubt this divine protection are destined to experience it because they are living in unbelief (partial belief) like Israel in the wilderness and be denied access to the promised resting place of God. We will all have 1260 days in the wilderness to figure this out. Some of you here will continue to deny this and come out of the wilderness riding the beast who ascended out of the bottomless pit the fourth beast of Revelation, sad to say. That is because your hope rests in this world, and the things of this world.

For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.....But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. (1 Thessalonians 5:2,4)

God bless

 

[Timtofly]

Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence. (John 18:36)

His servants are certainly fighting over where they end up. On earth or heaven....

 

[Timtofly]

If you are really saying that Israel will be *disciplined* by God when they experience God's wrath, then why wouldn't the Church also suffer God's discipline? In fact, we are told that all Christians *must* experience discipline, or be considered illegitimate children!

Or just those who claim to be, but are not will suffer the wrath.

Not sure why one thinks this is a time of living. The angels are here gathering souls to either eternal life or eternal damnation. Why would the church be subject to have their soul sent to damnation? That makes no sense. The church is gone and glorified before the angels start removing souls from these dead physical bodies. That is the point of the Olivet Discourse. Not that 70AD was significant in the OD.


The church is changed and glorified at the Second Coming. Then the Lamb and angels deal with Israel. Some are goats, and many are sheep. That is going on during the Trumpets. Then during the Thunders, the Lamb and angels are harvesting the tares, and burning them up, and harvesting wheat sown during the Trumpets. Why the church places themselves into this final harvest is blatant disregard to Paul claiming the church is changed and glorified before this harvest, not during nor after in Satan's 42 months. How is losing one's head to avoid the mark perseverance? If one is not beheaded, they can not be resurrected in Revelation 20:4. All who persevere to the end will be killed by Christ at Armageddon. None of Adam's flesh and blood will remain in corruptible sinful nature bodies. All will die one way or the other. The church is changed in the air at the Second Coming before the angels perform their task of sounding the Trumpets and removing souls from bodies in the final harvest.

 

[Timtofly]

We Must All Pass Through His Wrath?

1 Peter 4:12 dosent show Gods wrath upon the "Church" as you claim, its speaks of trials and testing

Just more false claims added to the long list

1 Peter 4:12-14KJV
12 Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you:
13 But rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ's sufferings; that, when his glory shall be revealed, ye may be glad also with exceeding joy.
14 If ye be reproached for the name of Christ, happy are ye; for the spirit of glory and of God resteth upon you: on their part he is evil spoken of, but on your part he is glorified.

Being burned at the stake is hardly the same thing as going through the final harvest of the Trumpets and Thunders.

 

[Truth7t7]

Being burned at the stake is hardly the same thing as going through the final harvest of the Trumpets and Thunders.

The (Two Witnesses) Rule The Tribulation, Not The Antichrist (Fact)

The Great Tribulation Will Be Upon The Antichrist And Wicked, The Church Is Protected, "Dont Be Deceived"

There's Going To Be An End Times Persecution, The Beast And His Kingdom Are The Target Of God's Empowered (Two Witnesses)

The Great Tribulation Will Come Upon The Wicked World, While The (Sealed Church) Is Protected

The (Sealed Church) will be present on earth and protected, when wicked men are tormented 5 months, desiring to die as death flees

All saved believers are (Sealed) by God, Eph 1:13, 4:30

Ephesians 1:13KJV
13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

Ephesians 4:30KJV
30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

It Was Commanded, Only Those Without God's Seal Will Be Tormented, The Sealed Church Is Protected

Revelation 9:3-6KJV
3 And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power.
4 And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.
5 And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man.
6 And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them.

Plagues upon The Beast and his Kingdom, a remake of Moses/Aaron against Pharaoh of Egypt

Revelation 11:3-6
3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.
5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.
6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.

Revelation 16:1-11KJV
1 And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth.
2 And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image.
3 And the second angel poured out his vial upon the sea; and it became as the blood of a dead man: and every living soul died in the sea.
4 And the third angel poured out his vial upon the rivers and fountains of waters; and they became blood.
5 And I heard the angel of the waters say, Thou art righteous, O Lord, which art, and wast, and shalt be, because thou hast judged thus.
6 For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets, and thou hast given them blood to drink; for they are worthy.
7 And I heard another out of the altar say, Even so, Lord God Almighty, true and righteous are thy judgments.
8 And the fourth angel poured out his vial upon the sun; and power was given unto him to scorch men with fire.
9 And men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed the name of God, which hath power over these plagues: and they repented not to give him glory.
10 And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain,
11 And blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and repented not of their deeds.