Why I could personally never chose to be Catholic

[BreadOfLife]

My husband and I both went to the same church from when we were born till we got married !
And we never got a bible till we changed church's ! May be that was because the priest or nuns never told us to get one ??????????

But they did tell us to get a prayer book and rosary ........!

[[[[[[[[[I am telling you things were so much different back then........ ]]]]]]]]]]]]

My parents were ALSO raised in the Church during the era of the Latin Mass. They owned Bibles and read them.
My grandfather was an AVID Scripture reader and regaled us with Bible stories.

Why do YOU blame the nuns for YOUR folly?
It's not their fault that YOU wouldn't own or read a Bible.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Thanks for admitting that the list of anti-Catholic lies is longer than the one I presented . . .

Catholics are fighters.
That's why we had so many crusades.
Kill the Muslims and take over Jerusalem.
But God wouldn't let it happen.
How many crusades?
Eight?
And the last one was a children's crusade.
Mother Mary and Joseph!
I wish they'd all go away.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Catholics are fighters.
That's why we had so many crusades.
Kill the Muslims and take over Jerusalem.
But God wouldn't let it happen.
How many crusades?
Eight?
And the last one was a children's crusade.
Mother Mary and Joseph!
I wish they'd all go away.

Maybe YOU should crack open a history book.
If it weren't for the Catholic Church - YOU would be kneeling on a carpet facing East and praying to Allah . . .

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Maybe YOU should crack open a history book.
If it weren't for the Catholic Church - YOU would be kneeling on a carpet facing East and praying to Allah . . .

God will never lose his church.
That's why us protestants are here.

 

[BreadOfLife]

God will never lose his church.
That's why us protestants are here.

Funny - that's why His Catholic Church has been here for 2000 years . . .

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Funny - that's why His Catholic Church has been here for 2000 years . . .

His catholic church?
He wrote an Apochalypse about his catholic church.

 

[BreadOfLife]

His catholic church?
He wrote an Apochalypse about his catholic church.

Care to elaborate on that - or do you justmake a habit of post silly comments?

 

[epostle1]

If Medugorje has been rejected, someone needs to email the countless thousands who still flock there to see the "light" and hear the messages....including the clerics.
As for the rest of your post. I am sure it is correct. Problem is I don't understand any of it...much less care. I am not a Baptist, much less a successionist. So unfortunately all your hard work and literary prowess has gone to waste. But nice attempt at diversion anyway.
What I do have is a fairly intelligent understanding of history. And yes, there were differences between the Albigenses and Waldenses, and the Paulicians etc certainly had there own unique perspectives. But what they ALL had in common, is that they refused to submit to the tyrannical demands of the papal order. They considered their religious liberty worth the risk of death at the hands of the state storm troopers answering to the orders of Rome. Blaming the state for the religious wars is a grand cop-out. Every king, queen, and state ruler had his or her personal priest in attendance at every decision making council, and refusal to cooperate inevitably ended up in excommunication for the individual ruler at best, or the whole nation at worst.
In the so called heretical sects you named above, no army attacked them without the consent, approval, and/or the explicit command of the local bishop. Their so-called crimes were religious crimes...and the religion was that which Rome demanded be the ONLY one in town. Their ONLY crime was that they thought and worshipped different than was approved by the papal power. Period.

I'm not posting a 10,000 word essay to prove your historical revisionism, that's why I posted links. If you knew what you are talking about, these apostates were more Catholic than the Pope himself, with their rigorous fasting and suicides.

Pope Francis shakes hands with Pastor Eugenio Bernardini during the first ever visit of a pope to a Waldensian evangelical church (PA)
Pope Francis asks Waldensian Christians to forgive the Church | CatholicHerald.co.uk
The Albigenians went undisturbed for a time, but if they had not been stopped the human race would have been wiped out, as marriage was thought to be sinful.

The dualism of the Albigenses was also the basis of their moral teaching. Man, they taught, is a living contradiction. Hence, the liberation of the soul from its captivity in the body is the true end of our being. To attain this, suicide is commendable; it was customary among them in the form of the endura (starvation). The extinction of bodily life on the largest scale consistent with human existence is also a perfect aim. As generation propagates the slavery of the soul to the body, perpetual chastity should be practiced. Matrimonial intercourse is unlawful; concubinage, being of a less permanent nature, is preferable to marriage. Abandonment of his wife by the husband, or vice versa, is desirable. Generation was abhorred by the Albigenses even in the animal kingdom. Consequently, abstention from all animal food, except fish, was enjoined. Their belief in metempsychosis, or the transmigration of souls, the result of their logical rejection of purgatory, furnishes another explanation for the same abstinence. To this practice they added long and rigorous fasts. The necessity of absolute fidelity to the sect was strongly inculcated. War and capital punishment were absolutely condemned.​

Does that look anything like Protestantism that you so rigorously defend? No? I didn't think so.
CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Albigenses

The cardinal point of the Paulician heresy is a distinction between the God who made and governs the material world and the God of heaven who created souls, who alone should be adored. They thought all matter bad. It seems therefore obvious to count them as one of the many neo-Manichaean sects, in spite of their own denial and that of modern writers ... But there is a strong Marcionite element too. They rejected the Old Testament; there was no Incarnation, Christ was an angel sent into the world by God, his real mother was the heavenly Jerusalem. His work consisted only in his teaching; to believe in him saves men from judgment. The true baptism and Eucharist consist in hearing his word, as in John 4:10. But many Paulicians, nevertheless, let their children be baptized by the Catholic clergy. They honoured not the Cross, but only the book of the Gospel. They were Iconoclasts, rejecting all pictures. Their Bible was a fragmentary New Testament. They rejected St. Peter's epistles because he had denied Christ. They referred always to the "Gospel and Apostle", apparently only St. Luke and St. Paul; though they quoted other Gospels in controversy... it get's more ridiculous.
Does that look anything like Protestantism that you so rigorously defend? No? I didn't think so. You are defending rebellion for it's own sake, and nothing more.

Where was Protestantism when these heresies were threatening the existence of the human race? It didn't yet exist, and how much blame would you put on the Church had she done nothing? You don't know as much as you claim.

What you guys need to do is pull your heads out of the 15th century, and wake up to the damaging effects heresies had on society. You and your bible hate cults are regressing by quantum leaps.

 

[epostle1]

In the ancient eastern church, there were (broadly) 2 schools of biblical studies: the Antiochene and the Alexandrian. Antiochene scholars emphasized the literal, historical method whereas Alexandrians were more prone to allegorization. Origen was an Alexandrian.

But Arius, Sabellius, Nestorious, and Apollonarius were of the Antiochene school and this method eventually gave rise to the Bogomil and Paulician heretics.

Theodore of Mopsuestia was another scion of this school who was never condemned in life but whose works were later censured after his death at the Councils of Ephesus and Constantinople. Orthodox members of the Antiochene school included St. John Chrysostom.

Protestants in the 16th Century would look back to the Antiochene school as their intellectual forbears. That is one reason why St. John Chrysostom has always been unpopular with them.

But a careful study of Church History shows that the desire to be crassly literal lay at the root of all the heresies of the Patristic period. The willingness to be flexible and to interpret difficult passages allegorically has been the usual manner of orthodoxy.

By doing so, paradoxes and outright contradictions are avoided. It also allows one to move beyond the literal meaning of the text to discern larger patterns of similarity between various portions of the Bible.

Scott Hahn has championed this understanding and has pointed out in some of his recent talks on a biblical worldview that the NT writers used allegorical methods in interpreting the OT.

The reformers and their descendants have stated that this method cannot be used 'safely' in the Church because the Holy Spirit alone can do this safely and he no longer works within the Church as he did among the Apostles. This is one consequence of denying the existence and charism of the Magisterium.

Bottom line: People who want to interpret the Bible for themselves always prefer the Antiochene literal to the Alexandrian allegorical. They think that they can be guided by sound methodology which will lead to logical results. They denounce the Alexandrian method as a flight of fancy that may lead to wild conclusions.

The reality is that without allegorization, people get carried away by their method into atomized conclusions that cannot be harmonized with other parts of the Bible and Tradition.

Virtually every major heresy has been the result of being too rigid and methodical in interpreting the Bible while not being willing to interpret the Bible in the light of the Holy Spirit. IMHO, this is the opposition of Spirit and letter, which St. Paul warned against:

2Cor 3:5 Not that we are competent of ourselves to claim anything as coming from us; our competence is from God, 6who has made us competent to be ministers of a new covenant, not of letter but of spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.

This error is a form of Pelagianism where human effort is pitted against the superintendence of the Holy Spirit.

What's great about the Catholic Church is that she accepts both of the methods of Antioch and Alexandria. She sees them as two gifts.

Heretics try to limit mystery. When I talk to some (not all) Protestants, they tend to rationalize everything. When I look at Protestant doctrine, I do not see development, but reductionism.

They tried to reduce "faith" without the sacraments, revelation to Scripture alone, righteousness into a mere declaration without the person's status itself. I hope I do not offend anyone here, and I'm not trying to, but whenever I read Protestant theology, it seems like it is a reductionist Christianity.

When they do not understand how the Cross and the Mass can be the same sacrifice, they reject it. If they do not understand how Mary can be the Mother of God without producing divinity, they reject it.
If they do not understand how a person can partake the sufferings of God so that he can offer his sufferings for another, they reject it. If they cannot understand why a mere man is chosen to feed His sheep, they reject it.

My question is, as it is the same to Ockhamists or reductionist philosophers, why take the reductionist position rather than the mystery? Is it because if we take the mystery, we will have to acknolwedge our limitations? The issue is really humility isn't it?

The Antiochene "method" was abstracted from their whole system. What was advocated by the radicals was a truncated version of it that was reduced it to a mechanical method instead of a tool to aid faith. Many were seduced by the Antiochene "method" because it appealed to their rationalism. I think this is why the ‘reformers’ and their descendants have fallen into that trap.

There were problems with the extremists using the Alexandrian "method" as well, but they were always perceived as flighty and Gnostic and so they had less attraction to educated people. Their heresies degenerated into folk practices.

Carried to an extreme, the Antiochene "method" leads to a greater dependence on human nature than is wise. I think it assumes a kind of Pelagianism. The Alexandrian approach recognized that "there are more things in Heaven and Earth than are dreamt of in {OUR} philosophy." Humility is the only way to approach the text. Having absolute assurance in our Greek grammar and our concordances is just another form of works righteousness.

 

[brakelite]

I'm not posting a 10,000 word essay to prove your historical revisionism, that's why I posted links. If you knew what you are talking about, these apostates were more Catholic than the Pope himself, with their rigorous fasting and suicides.

Pope Francis shakes hands with Pastor Eugenio Bernardini during the first ever visit of a pope to a Waldensian evangelical church (PA)
Pope Francis asks Waldensian Christians to forgive the Church | CatholicHerald.co.uk
The Albigenians went undisturbed for a time, but if they had not been stopped the human race would have been wiped out, as marriage was thought to be sinful.

The dualism of the Albigenses was also the basis of their moral teaching. Man, they taught, is a living contradiction. Hence, the liberation of the soul from its captivity in the body is the true end of our being. To attain this, suicide is commendable; it was customary among them in the form of the endura (starvation). The extinction of bodily life on the largest scale consistent with human existence is also a perfect aim. As generation propagates the slavery of the soul to the body, perpetual chastity should be practiced. Matrimonial intercourse is unlawful; concubinage, being of a less permanent nature, is preferable to marriage. Abandonment of his wife by the husband, or vice versa, is desirable. Generation was abhorred by the Albigenses even in the animal kingdom. Consequently, abstention from all animal food, except fish, was enjoined. Their belief in metempsychosis, or the transmigration of souls, the result of their logical rejection of purgatory, furnishes another explanation for the same abstinence. To this practice they added long and rigorous fasts. The necessity of absolute fidelity to the sect was strongly inculcated. War and capital punishment were absolutely condemned.​

Does that look anything like Protestantism that you so rigorously defend? No? I didn't think so.
CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Albigenses

The cardinal point of the Paulician heresy is a distinction between the God who made and governs the material world and the God of heaven who created souls, who alone should be adored. They thought all matter bad. It seems therefore obvious to count them as one of the many neo-Manichaean sects, in spite of their own denial and that of modern writers ... But there is a strong Marcionite element too. They rejected the Old Testament; there was no Incarnation, Christ was an angel sent into the world by God, his real mother was the heavenly Jerusalem. His work consisted only in his teaching; to believe in him saves men from judgment. The true baptism and Eucharist consist in hearing his word, as in John 4:10. But many Paulicians, nevertheless, let their children be baptized by the Catholic clergy. They honoured not the Cross, but only the book of the Gospel. They were Iconoclasts, rejecting all pictures. Their Bible was a fragmentary New Testament. They rejected St. Peter's epistles because he had denied Christ. They referred always to the "Gospel and Apostle", apparently only St. Luke and St. Paul; though they quoted other Gospels in controversy... it get's more ridiculous.
Does that look anything like Protestantism that you so rigorously defend? No? I didn't think so. You are defending rebellion for it's own sake, and nothing more.

Where was Protestantism when these heresies were threatening the existence of the human race? It didn't yet exist, and how much blame would you put on the Church had she done nothing? You don't know as much as you claim.

What you guys need to do is pull your heads out of the 15th century, and wake up to the damaging effects heresies had on society. You and your bible hate cults are regressing by quantum leaps.

I am not holding up any individual group as paragons of theological excellence. That includes the RCC. Our discussion isn't about doctrine or rights and wrongs of various Christian groups over the centuries. The question is why is it that Rome, considering the fact that one of the foundation planks for justifying her existence is that the gates of hell shall not prevail against her, find it so necessary to her survival that she pursue such a determined course to use whatever means available including sanctimonious bulls, crusades, inquisitions, persecutions, and wars, to defend herself? If she was right and correct in her faith and practice, why could she not just God to defend her?
It is all well and good to speak of all the incorrect ways that the Albigenses and Paulicians etc were interpreting and practicing their faith, but why demand with force of arms and persecution to submit to orthodoxy? To defend that by claiming that the human race was at risk is ridiculous. The fact that the church waged constant war against the Waldenses for 600 years is bad enough, but there is worse than that. My biggest concern is not even in the fact that you, and others like you, actually defend it today. No, what I am really concerned about is that fact that the church officially still has in her canons and creeds statements that to her, justify that manner of dealing with those who she disagrees with. That tells me that in the future if given the liberty to do so, she will once again use that power to persecute and destroy those who refuse to submit to her dogmas and traditions.
Religious liberty is great for Catholics when she doesn't have the political ascendency...but history reveals that when she does have civil power and influence, religious liberty for anyone else becomes an endangered species.
BTW, the Waldenses were Biblically sound. Too Biblically sound for Rome. Too Catholic? No, they were the connecting faith to the apostolic age, along with the Assyrian church of the east. Their main problem as far as Rome was concerned is that they translated the Bible into the vernacular. As did Wycliffe, Lucian, Columba and of course Luther and others. They were heroes. And martyrs.

 

[brakelite]

II. THE LORD'S DAY
This is the day which the LORD has made; let us rejoice and be glad in it.103

The day of the Resurrection: the new creation
2174 Jesus rose from the dead "on the first day of the week."104 Because it is the "first day," the day of Christ's Resurrection recalls the first creation. Because it is the "eighth day" following the sabbath,105 it symbolizes the new creation ushered in by Christ's Resurrection. For Christians it has become the first of all days, the first of all feasts, the Lord's Day (he kuriake hemera, dies dominica) Sunday:

We all gather on the day of the sun, for it is the first day [after the Jewish sabbath, but also the first day] when God, separating matter from darkness, made the world; and on this same day Jesus Christ our Savior rose from the dead.106

Sunday - fulfillment of the sabbath
2175 Sunday is expressly distinguished from the sabbath which it follows chronologically every week; for Christians its ceremonial observance replaces that of the sabbath. In Christ's Passover, Sunday fulfills the spiritual truth of the Jewish sabbath and announces man's eternal rest in God. For worship under the Law prepared for the mystery of Christ, and what was done there prefigured some aspects of Christ:107

Those who lived according to the old order of things have come to a new hope, no longer keeping the sabbath, but the Lord's Day, in which our life is blessed by him and by his death.108

2176 The celebration of Sunday observes the moral commandment inscribed by nature in the human heart to render to God an outward, visible, public, and regular worship "as a sign of his universal beneficence to all."109 Sunday worship fulfills the moral command of the Old Covenant, taking up its rhythm and spirit in the weekly celebration of the Creator and Redeemer of his people.

103 Ps 118:24.
104 Cf. Mt 28:1; Mk 16:2; Lk 24:1; Jn 20:1.
105 Cf. Mk 16:1; Mt 28:1.
106 St. Justin, I Apol. 67G 6,429 and 432.
107 Cf. 1 Cor 10:11.
108 St. Ignatius of Antioch, Ad Magn. 9,1:SCh 10,88.
109 St. Thomas Aquinas, STh II-II,122,4.

Acts 20:7, 1 Cor. 16:2, Col. 2:16, Rev. 1:10

Exactly. No Biblical justification whatsoever. Tradition and tradition only. Nice try but.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Exactly. No Biblical justification whatsoever. Tradition and tradition only. Nice try but.

Either you're blind or you just enjoy being dishonest because I gave you the Scriptural references from the Catechism:
103 Ps 118:24.
104 Cf. Mt 28:1; Mk 16:2; Lk 24:1; Jn 20:1.
105 Cf. Mk 16:1; Mt 28:1.
106 St. Justin, I Apol. 67G 6,429 and 432.
107 Cf. 1 Cor 10:11.
108 St. Ignatius of Antioch, Ad Magn. 9,1:SCh 10,88.
109 St. Thomas Aquinas, STh II-II,122,4.

Acts 20:7, 1 Cor. 16:2, Col. 2:16, Rev. 1:10

 

[Helen]

My third posting of this...

As I read through the posts on the Site. I thought to myself. “I wonder what kind of Christian Site this would be if all the references to RCC, RC, Catholic , Roman Catholic , and any post about their religion , the Pope etc, were deleted….and vanished!! What if?

What if everyone stopped looking at another person belief system ,and what if....everyone started looking to the Lord, writing about the good things of the Lord... instead of looking at what others are doing, and what if everyone started to share on the site the positive uplifting things,…even the hard things, happy things, sad things, and things that God was helping to get them through in their life!


It is sad ‘for me’ that the great bulk of postings on this Site are just preoccupations and distractions about with and about the Catholic doctrines and what others happen to believe!!

Is this the best that we can do?? Shame on us....



Yep, I think half or more of the content of this Site would totally vanish if all anti-Catholic discussions and posts were pulled off.


What if….

 

[brakelite]

Finally - you NEVER answered my question about the Transfiguration.
Was Moses "Dead" when he was speaking with Jesus??

Jude 1:9 Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.
Moses was granted a special resurrection. He was very much alive. Elijah, as you would know, was translated without seeing death. Thus the two of them were representative of the coming of Christ when those asleep will rise, and those alive will be changed.
The "assumption" of Mary officially pronounced by the Pope in 1950 ' ex-cathedra' is a lie. You are not praying to a living person residing in heaven. You are praying to a demon, masquerading as Mary. Much safer, more intelligent, and far more likely to receive an answer if you go to the throne room direct. God is not a stern judgemental tyrant who doesn't hear the prayers of His children. Nor is He too busy to answer.

 

[brakelite]

Either you're blind or you just enjoy being dishonest because I gave you the Scriptural references from the Catechism:
103 Ps 118:24.
104 Cf. Mt 28:1; Mk 16:2; Lk 24:1; Jn 20:1.
105 Cf. Mk 16:1; Mt 28:1.
106 St. Justin, I Apol. 67G 6,429 and 432.
107 Cf. 1 Cor 10:11.
108 St. Ignatius of Antioch, Ad Magn. 9,1:SCh 10,88.
109 St. Thomas Aquinas, STh II-II,122,4.

Acts 20:7, 1 Cor. 16:2, Col. 2:16, Rev. 1:10

Yes, I saw those. But they don't answer my challenge. I asked for scriptural references justifying the change from Sabbath to Sunday, I did not ask for evidence of the existence of the first day, or what took place on that day. I want a "thus saith the Lord" that justifies countermanding a specific commandment of God.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Jude 1:9 Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.
Moses was granted a special resurrection. He was very much alive. Elijah, as you would know, was translated without seeing death. Thus the two of them were representative of the coming of Christ when those asleep will rise, and those alive will be changed.
The "assumption" of Mary officially pronounced by the Pope in 1950 ' ex-cathedra' is a lie. You are not praying to a living person residing in heaven. You are praying to a demon, masquerading as Mary. Much safer, more intelligent, and far more likely to receive an answer if you go to the throne room direct. God is not a stern judgemental tyrant who doesn't hear the prayers of His children. Nor is He too busy to answer.

What utter hypocrisy.

NOWHERE does Scripture OR Tradition tell us that Moses has a "special resurrection" - yet in the same breath you say that Mary's Assumption is false. Scripture doesn't explicitly tell us that Mary was assumed into Heaven - but there is a LOT of witness from Tradition.

In short - there is more evidence for Mary's assumption than Mose's resurrection . . .

 

[brakelite]

My third posting of this...

As I read through the posts on the Site. I thought to myself. “I wonder what kind of Christian Site this would be if all the references to RCC, RC, Catholic , Roman Catholic , and any post about their religion , the Pope etc, were deleted….and vanished!! What if?

What if everyone stopped looking at another person belief system ,and what if....everyone started looking to the Lord, writing about the good things of the Lord... instead of looking at what others are doing, and what if everyone started to share on the site the positive uplifting things,…even the hard things, happy things, sad things, and things that God was helping to get them through in their life!


It is sad ‘for me’ that the great bulk of postings on this Site are just preoccupations and distractions about with and about the Catholic doctrines and what others happen to believe!!

Is this the best that we can do?? Shame on us....





What if….

If you applied that rule to scripture, you would lose 80% of prophecy that warns the world of that apostate system. And it is the Christian's duty to expose her lies and wicked practices and warn that the future will be no less violent in her hands when the Pope is granted global authority.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Yes, I saw those. But they don't answer my challenge. I asked for scriptural references justifying the change from Sabbath to Sunday, I did not ask for evidence of the existence of the first day, or what took place on that day. I want a "thus saith the Lord" that justifies countermanding a specific commandment of God.

Let's see . . .
I gave you the explanation from the Catechism and the Scriptural references that support it - and you STILL don't get it.

There's nothing more I can do for you if you keep your head in the sand.
Only the Holy Spirit can remove the scales from your eyes.

There is none so blind as the one who refuses to see . . .

 

[brakelite]

What utter hypocrisy.

NOWHERE does Scripture OR Tradition tell us that Moses has a "special resurrection" - yet in the same breath you say that Mary's Assumption is false. Scripture doesn't explicitly tell us that Mary was assumed into Heaven - but there is a LOT of witness from Tradition.

In short - there is more evidence for Mary's assumption than Mose's resurrection . . .

So when Michael, the head of the entire heavenly angelic host called a rebuke upon Satan when Satan disputed the angels right to Moses body, the devil won that dispute? Michael was denied the body of Moses?????

 

[BreadOfLife]

So when Michael, the head of the entire heavenly angelic host called a rebuke upon Satan when Satan disputed the angels right to Moses body, the devil won that dispute? Michael was denied the body of Moses?????

Not at all.
However, it NEVER states word about a resurrection.

In Rev. 11:19-12:1, we see Mary, the Ark of the New Covenant in Heaven. She is the ONLY person in Revelation to have a FULL Body from head to toe.