Why I could personally never chose to be Catholic

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bbyrd009

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Therefore, on these two passages, God has declared there is no further revelation coming from Him in any form, and by this declaration, all that He wanted to convey to the human race has been written in this book called the Bible.
Very truly I tell you, whoever believes in me will do the works I have been doing, and they will do even greater things than these

we do not yet know what we will become

Understand I AM
 

BreadOfLife

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If I may just toss out a thought about this...?
It seems to me that your claim here about scripture not being the sole authority is an argument from silence. Does scripture need to state that it is the only writings from God? Do we need to have the obvious conclusions pointed out that there is no man (aside from Christ, the Word of God), who is perfect, and therefore infallible? How do we therefore trust in something or someone (church or head of church) that is clearly not perfect? Wouldn't that lead to an obvious conclusion that if ideas, announcements, authorities, disciplines, etc, did not line up with scripture, it could not be 100% guaranteed to come from God?

If, as 2 Tim 3:16-17 says, that all scripture is God-breathed and is useful for 'every good work', and that, like the Bereans in Acts 17:11, we are to search scripture to see if what we are told and taught is true, then are we not seeing in scripture itself that it is there, to the Word, that we must turn? Too often we see that both 'spirits' (1 John 4:1) and false teachers, both from ignorance and evil intentions, seek to lead us astray. If we can not rest in fallen mankind, then we can only trust in God's word.

I believe, that in cases such as this, the Catholic Church perhaps must show how church tradition and the Pope can be viewed as perfect. And I'm not trying to attack you, I'm just honestly laying down an alternative opinion, as we all have the right to bear. If you say that we can trust in men in general (church) and the Pope, show me how they are without sin. I know my bible is the word of God...I don't know that what comes from the Pope's mouth is...after all, he was picked by man.
Hi Naomi -
Thanks for your charitable post.

First off - I disagree that the Catholic position against Sola Scriptura is one made from "silence."
The argument against Sola Scriptura can be found in Scripture:
2 Thess 2:15
"Stand firm and hold fast to the Traditions you were taught, whether by an ORAL STATEMENT - OR BY a letter from us."

What are some of these "Traditions", you might ask?
One of them is Infant Baptism. We read from the Early Church:

Irenaeus
He [Jesus] came to save all through himself – all, I say, who through him are reborn in God; infants, and children, and youths, and old men. Therefore he passed through every age, becoming an infant for infants, sanctifying infants; a child for children, sanctifying those who are of that age . . . [so that] he might be the perfect teacher in all things, perfect not only in respect to the setting forth of truth, perfect also in respect to relative age (Against Heresies 2:22:4 [A.D. 189]).

Origen

The Church received from the APOSTLES the TRADITION of giving baptism even to infants. The apostles, to whom were committed the secrets of divine sacraments, knew there is in everyone innate strains of original sin, which must be washed away through water and the Spirit (Commentaries on Romans 5:9 [A.D. 248]).

Another Tradition is the Canon of Scripture. This was compiled and declared by the Catholic Church under the guidance of the Holy Spirit (John 16:12-15) in the 4th century. In short, there is no Canonical list of Books in Scripture, so Scripture alone could not determine it.
 

BreadOfLife

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Oh just the amount of honour that is given to her...above Abraham ( the father of faith) Moses, David, Paul, or any of the others.
I just haven't seen where we are told to put her above everyone else.
She had a calling and a duty to do, and she did it well....as did all the others.

I was only seven when I was sent away for a few months for health reasons by our doctor.
I was sent to a seas-side town ( in England) to convalesce and hopefully get stronger. ( we lived in London)
It was a Catholic Home run by nun's. Myself and another girl were the only two non-catholics. A scary huge grey building. About 30 kids in all.

I just remember having to pray prayers to 'Blessed Mary'.
Even at seven I couldn't understand why. I had always been taught to pray to God or Jesus. The nuns were kind , ...except one.
The wearing of black scared me a bit through.

That's all.....
Fair enough.

Well, first of all - as great as they were, Abraham, Moses, David, Paul, and the others weren't impregnated by the Holy Spirit. They didn't carry God in their womb. Scripture doesn't say about them: "All generations shall call me blessed."

Moses was commanded to build the Ark of the Covenant, which carried the symbols of God's power and the Law.

Mary was the fulfillment of this man made Ark. She was the Ark of the NEW Covenant, Jesus, who is the fulfillment of the Law. He is God Himself.
Scripture illustrates this pretty clearly:
OT -
The Word was written by God on Tablets of Stone (Ex. 25:10) placed inside the Ark (Deut. 10:1)
NT - The Word of God became Flesh (John 1) conceived inside Mary (Luke 2:38) Mary carried the Word of God.

OT - "Who am I that the Ark of my Lord should come to me?" (2 Sam. 6:9)
NT - "Who am I that the mother of my Lord should come to me?" (Luke 1:43)

OT - The When the Ark carrying the Word of God returned “David was leaping and dancing before the Lord” (2 Sam. 6:14)
NT - When Mary came into Elizabeth's presence carrying the word of God, the baby “leaped for joy” in Elizabeth's womb (Luke 2:38)

OT - The Ark carrying the Word of God is brought to the house of Obed-Edom for 3 months, where it was a blessing. (2 Sam. 6:11)
NT - Mary (the new Ark) carrying the Word of God goes to Elizabeth's house for 3 months, where she is a blessing (Luke 1:56)

OT - The Ark is captured (1 Sam 4:11) and brought to a foreign land and later returns (1 Sam 6:13)
NT - Mary (the new Ark) is exiled to a foreign land (Egypt) and later returns (Matt. 2:14)

OT - The On the Day of the Dedication of the Temple which Solomon built, there were 120 priests present (2 Chron. 5:11). The Ark of the covenant was carried into the Temple (2 Chron. 5:7) and fire came down from Heaven to consume the burnt offering (2 Chron. 7:7).
NT - The On the Day of Pentecost, there were 120 disciples of Jesus present in the Upper Room (Acts 1:15). Mar, the Mother of Jesus and the Ark of the NEW Covenant was also present while the Holy Spirit came down as tongues of fire (Acts 2:3).
 
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BreadOfLife

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nope you have the problem, I'm familiar with catholic culture and thinking also, of which your thinking over and over again proves to be some kind of enraged fanatical crap and maybe you should be banded from saying you are a catholic. if I was an authority in that church I'd throw your beeb out. some priests I've talked to even said so much as the KJV should be read. that doesn't mean Catholics should adopt KJV but there's nothing wrong with it if you have no need for what was excluded. and no one is keeping anyone from looking into that ether those exclusion were a result of catholic miss use in the eye of protestant views, so argue with them.

if one wants to make sure they get it all and the mainstream of it all the Jerusalem Bible seems to cover it. I do believe the Nun (I don't remember her name) who started EWTN channel recommended it, not the "new Jerusalem bible" the "Jerusalem bible".
As usual, you don't do your homework so your comments in RED read like average anti-Catholic drivel.

First of all - you refer to "some priests" who recommend the KJV - but you don't name any of them.

Secondly - you claim that they told you that there's "nothing wrong" with the KJV as long as you have "no need" what was excluded.
This is a laughable statement as there isn't ONE word of Scripture that we "don't need". It is the Word of GOD.

Finally - your claim that Mother Angelica recommended the KJV is a joke unless you can document the quote.

'Nuff said.
 

BreadOfLife

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Of course your church has authority over you, you gave them that authority, just as those who are in Christ, give Him authority over them, you are either a citizen of heaven by Christ or a citizen of the catholic church by your pope, one cannot serve two masters. you chose yours we choose Him, Jesus that is. you serve your church its rules its laws its doctrines its traditions, we serve Christ and the laws and doctrines of heaven. Ao look, no bold, no colours no highlights no big letters, because I dont have to shout, teh truth, which you love to drown out.

God bless and have a lovely day.
So you STILL can't address my Scriptural proof?
Pathetic . . .
 

mjrhealth

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So you STILL can't address my Scriptural proof?
Pathetic . . .
you have none, a stuck record defending a lie. No mention of any "catholic: church in the bible but we do have this.

1Sa_8:7 And the LORD said unto Samuel, Hearken unto the voice of the people in all that they say unto thee: for they have not rejected thee, but they have rejected me, that I should not reign over them.

and so it is your "church" that rules and reigns over you this bit

1Co_6:16 What? know ye not that he which is joined to an harlot is one body? for two, saith he, shall be one flesh.

and of course what Jesus said

Mar 10:42 But Jesus called them to him, and saith unto them, Ye know that they which are accounted to rule over the Gentiles exercise lordship over them; and their great ones exercise authority upon them.
Mar 10:43 But so shall it not be among you: but whosoever will be great among you, shall be your minister:

children of disobedience. Have a good day BOL.
 

Webers_Home

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I was taught in catechism that seeing as how Jesus Christ's mother was a
virgin when he was conceived, then he didn't have a human father. Well;
that all depends on how we go about defining "father".

Gen 2:21a-22a . . So the Lord God cast a deep sleep upon the man; and,
while he slept, He took one of his ribs and closed up the flesh at that spot.
And the Lord God fashioned the rib that He had taken from the man into a
woman;

The Hebrew word for "rib" is tsela' (tsay-law') and Gen 2:21-22 contains the
only two places in the entire Old Testament where it's translated with an
English word representing a skeletal bone. In the other twenty-nine places,
it's translated "side" which is really how it should be translated because
according to Gen 2:23, the material taken from Adam's body included a
portion of his flesh, which is notable; here's why.

God constructed Adam's body from the Earth's dust, and then breathed into
it the breath of life (consciousness). He did neither of those two things with
Eve. Her body was constructed from Adam's body, and she got her breath of
life from his breath of life. In other words: human life is a transferrable kind
of life that can be, and is, passed on to succeeding generations.

The result is: none of us are discreet creations; everybody that biologically
descends from Adam is just simply more Adam; viz: reproductions, i.e. our
body is his body, and our breath of life is his breath of life. This is very
important in regards to Jesus Christ's human origin.

There are people, even a number of Christians, who desperately want to
biologically disconnect Jesus Christ from Adam; their case relies heavily
upon Jesus' virgin conception, which is a losing case seeing as how the flesh
and bone of Mary's parents biologically descended from Eve's flesh and
bone; and from thence Adam's flesh and bone; ergo: Mary's flesh and bone
were Adam's.

Opponents have even attempted to biologically disconnect Christ from Adam
by insisting that his conception was an implant, i.e. Mary was Jesus'
surrogate mother rather than his biological mother. But that idea is not only
a theory concocted right out of thin air and a fertile imagination, but it's also
spurious and unbiblical.

Acts 13:22-23 . . "I have found David the son of Jesse, a man after mine
own heart, which shall fulfill all my will." Of this man's seed hath God,
according to His promise, raised unto Israel a savior, Jesus.

Rom 1:1-3 . . Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David
according to the flesh

The koiné Greek word for "seed" in those two passages is sperma (sper'
mah) which in males typically refers to their reproductive stuff and/or their
genetic material; especially when the seed is according to the flesh, i.e.
biological seed rather than spiritual seed.

Now, in order for Christ to descend from David's seed according to the flesh
sans Mary sleeping with a man, she had to be one of David's biological
granddaughters or else her child would not have been David's actual
progeny, and the angel's announcement would've been untrue.

Luke 1:31 . .You will conceive in your womb and bear a son; the Lord God
will give him the throne of his father David.

I can think of no sensible argument that would successfully break Christ's
biological lineage to David, nor of one that would successfully break David's
biological lineage to Eve.

So then; unless somebody can prove-- clearly, conclusively, and without
ambiguity; air tight and iron clad-- that Jesus Christ's mother wasn't
biologically related to Eve; then it's a foregone conclusion that Adam was the
first in Jesus Christ's long line of biological male ancestors; the final one of
course being Mary's biological father.


NOTE: It's commonly objected that women cannot provide the Y
chromosome necessary for producing a male child. And that's right; they
usually can't. However, seeing as how God constructed an entire woman
from a sample of male flesh and bone; then I do not see how it would be
any more difficult for God to construct a dinky little Y chromosome from a
woman's flesh and bone.

And seeing as how every woman's flesh and bone descends from Adam's
flesh and bone, then any Y chromosome that God might construct from a
woman's flesh and bone would essentially be Adam's Y chromosome seeing
as how Eve's flesh and bone were Adam's to begin with.

Q: But doesn't 1Cor 15:45-47 say that Christ is a second Adam rather than
a reproduction of the first?

A: I'm going to deliberately misquote a portion of that passage so's to bring
out a point.

"And so it is written; "The first man Adam was made a living soul"; the last
Adam was made a life-giving man."

According to the actual language, the last Adam was made a life-giving spirit
rather than a life-giving man. When 1Cor 15:45-47 is considered along with
John 1:1-4, it becomes readily apparent that the last Adam was God prior to
becoming an h.sapiens.

/
 

Jun2u

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Very truly I tell you, whoever believes in me will do the works I have been doing, and they will do even greater things than these

we do not yet know what we will become

Understand I AM


Jesus came as a servant to do the works of the Father, that is, to tell the world about God and His kingdom, and to die on the cross to save His people from their sins, Matthew 1:21.

One of the works Jesus did was to proclaim the Gospel, yet there were only 120 in the upper room and about 500 in Galilee saved.

But, Jesus told His disciples that they will do greater work than this (John 14:12), and it was realized at Pentecost when Peter preached one sermon and 3,000 were saved. In this sense, Peter did a greater work.

Hence, the Great Commission was commanded by Jesus to all believers to go into all the world and preach the Gospel.

To God Be The Glory
 

BreadOfLife

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you have none, a stuck record defending a lie. No mention of any "catholic: church in the bible but we do have this.

1Sa_8:7 And the LORD said unto Samuel, Hearken unto the voice of the people in all that they say unto thee: for they have not rejected thee, but they have rejected me, that I should not reign over them.

and so it is your "church" that rules and reigns over you this bit

1Co_6:16 What? know ye not that he which is joined to an harlot is one body? for two, saith he, shall be one flesh.

and of course what Jesus said

Mar 10:42 But Jesus called them to him, and saith unto them, Ye know that they which are accounted to rule over the Gentiles exercise lordship over them; and their great ones exercise authority upon them.
Mar 10:43 But so shall it not be among you: but whosoever will be great among you, shall be your minister:

children of disobedience. Have a good day BOL.
STILL waiting for you to address the Scriptural proof I presented about Church Authority.

Your cowardly evasions are just that - cowardly . . .
 

bbyrd009

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and to die on the cross to save His people from their sins, Matthew 1:21.
yet "no Son of Man may die for another's sins; the soul that sins will die," and
"pick up your cross, and follow Me," to back it up, lol, if you want to change the subject?

i quoted those to contrast
Therefore, on these two passages, God has declared there is no further revelation coming from Him in any form, and by this declaration, all that He wanted to convey to the human race has been written in this book called the Bible.
, and suggest a return to the original def of Scripture. Not to change the subject, iow
3,000 were saved. In this sense, Peter did a greater work.
3,000 came to a hope of salvation at least, yes; but i'm more impressed with the discoverer of diabetes, personally, for greater things. Or at least let's admit that Peter's contribution is still pretty hotly contested lol, no scientists are called "satan" in the Book, etc.

for all we know Peter's 3000 all got "seven worse spirits" even, wouldn't surprise me any. Doesn't mean they ended up condemned or anything imo
Hence, the Great Commission was commanded by Jesus to all believers to go into all the world and preach the Gospel.
well, awesome sermon lol. ty, i s'pose.

got any comment on how "Understand I AM" et al up there might reflect upon your perception of "Sola?"

Btw, can "the Bible is all you need" even be quoted from the Book?
oh, your assertion is that is what Rev 22 says, i forgot.
Seems like "...of the words of prophecy in this book..." is kind of being ignored, wadr, at the very least?
 
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Webers_Home

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"no Son of Man may die for another's sins;

Christ was designated to give his life for the sins of the world before the
earth was created. (1Pet 1:18-20 and Rev 13:8)

Seeing as how biblical law isn't retroactive; then any and all sacrificial prohibitions
enacted after the creation of the earth, do not have jurisdiction over the cross.

/
 
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bbyrd009

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Christ was designated to give his life for the sins of the world before the
earth was created. (1Pet 1:18-20 and Rev 13:8)

Seeing as how biblical law isn't retroactive; then any and all sacrificial laws
enacted after the creation of the earth, do not have jurisdiction over the cross.

/
ah well i didn't mean to suggest that any did--if i am doing that without realizing it, bam point it out pls-
-but that your first statement is as easily appropriated by Nehushtan worshippers as the faithful.

"And i'm saved by the Blood, and i love Jesus, and i know where i'm going after i die, so you better listen to me, see"
or else! :)

"worship Christ," and i guess even "praise Jesus" descend from this too.
they seem perfectly acceptable on the surface, right
 
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Naomi25

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Hi Naomi -
Thanks for your charitable post.

First off - I disagree that the Catholic position against Sola Scriptura is one made from "silence."
The argument against Sola Scriptura can be found in Scripture:
2 Thess 2:15
"Stand firm and hold fast to the Traditions you were taught, whether by an ORAL STATEMENT - OR BY a letter from us."

What are some of these "Traditions", you might ask?
One of them is Infant Baptism. We read from the Early Church:

Irenaeus
He [Jesus] came to save all through himself – all, I say, who through him are reborn in God; infants, and children, and youths, and old men. Therefore he passed through every age, becoming an infant for infants, sanctifying infants; a child for children, sanctifying those who are of that age . . . [so that] he might be the perfect teacher in all things, perfect not only in respect to the setting forth of truth, perfect also in respect to relative age (Against Heresies 2:22:4 [A.D. 189]).

Origen

The Church received from the APOSTLES the TRADITION of giving baptism even to infants. The apostles, to whom were committed the secrets of divine sacraments, knew there is in everyone innate strains of original sin, which must be washed away through water and the Spirit (Commentaries on Romans 5:9 [A.D. 248]).

Another Tradition is the Canon of Scripture. This was compiled and declared by the Catholic Church under the guidance of the Holy Spirit (John 16:12-15) in the 4th century. In short, there is no Canonical list of Books in Scripture, so Scripture alone could not determine it.

Hi BOL. Everything ought to be charitable, don't you think? It is a Christian board! I disagree with the RCC on several things, but I know honest, born again Christians are found within her. And, while perhaps I cannot put ultimate authority on church tradition, I certainly recognize that we too hold our own in very high regard.

In regards to what Paul wrote...well, it's Paul! Paul was inspired by the Holy Spirit for the direct purpose of teaching and writing God's word down. The same goes for all other authors of the bible. We see in his use of these authors something quite unique that has not happened since then; the use of sinful man to put the Word of God on page for his children to have. We know that these men, without God's inspiring Holy Spirit upon them, were quite imperfect...scripture itself records their sins! Moses as he threw the Commandment tablets to the ground in fury; David as he took another mans wife, Peter as he refused to eat with Gentiles after what the Lord directly showed him. But what Moses put on page? What David wrote, or Peter? God's perfect words! And Paul...'chief of sinners', comforting the Thessalonians, who were being deceived by false letters and false teachings. Paul assures them that unless the letter came directly from him, or the teaching came from him (after all, he was sent by Christ himself to bring the gospel to the Gentiles!), then it should not be heeded.

I would like to point out two other things that should be considered.
When Jesus was being tempted in the wilderness by Satan, what did he turn to to defeat him? Jesus, who was God, who had the Holy Spirit, who was the only perfect human that exists....he defeated Satan with scripture! This is amazing, this is huge! The implications of this cannot be ignored, or at least shouldn't!
Also...Jesus wasn't too enamored of Church tradition. Of course, it wasn't the church back then, but the idea, I think, is similar. The Jews had the Law of God that they had to follow. But they had also added all these extra little things throughout the years that, by the time Jesus came along, they felt held as much weight as the Law. And, well...I don't really need to point out what Jesus thought of that, do I? Something to think about...?
 

mjrhealth

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STILL waiting for you to address the Scriptural proof I presented about Church Authority.

Your cowardly evasions are just that - cowardly . . .
I have but you are too blind to see, now that I stand in opposition to you out comes the knives, how she hates it that great harlot, like mother like son.
 

Helen

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Fair enough.

Well, first of all - as great as they were, Abraham, Moses, David, Paul, and the others weren't impregnated by the Holy Spirit. They didn't carry God in their womb. Scripture doesn't say about them: "All generations shall call me blessed."

Moses was commanded to build the Ark of the Covenant, which carried the symbols of God's power and the Law.

Mary was the fulfillment of this man made Ark. She was the Ark of the NEW Covenant, Jesus, who is the fulfillment of the Law. He is God Himself.
Scripture illustrates this pretty clearly:
OT -
The Word was written by God on Tablets of Stone (Ex. 25:10) placed inside the Ark (Deut. 10:1)
NT - The Word of God became Flesh (John 1) conceived inside Mary (Luke 2:38) Mary carried the Word of God.

OT - "Who am I that the Ark of my Lord should come to me?" (2 Sam. 6:9)
NT - "Who am I that the mother of my Lord should come to me?" (Luke 1:43)

OT - The When the Ark carrying the Word of God returned “David was leaping and dancing before the Lord” (2 Sam. 6:14)
NT - When Mary came into Elizabeth's presence carrying the word of God, the baby “leaped for joy” in Elizabeth's womb (Luke 2:38)

OT - The Ark carrying the Word of God is brought to the house of Obed-Edom for 3 months, where it was a blessing. (2 Sam. 6:11)
NT - Mary (the new Ark) carrying the Word of God goes to Elizabeth's house for 3 months, where she is a blessing (Luke 1:56)

OT - The Ark is captured (1 Sam 4:11) and brought to a foreign land and later returns (1 Sam 6:13)
NT - Mary (the new Ark) is exiled to a foreign land (Egypt) and later returns (Matt. 2:14)

OT - The On the Day of the Dedication of the Temple which Solomon built, there were 120 priests present (2 Chron. 5:11). The Ark of the covenant was carried into the Temple (2 Chron. 5:7) and fire came down from Heaven to consume the burnt offering (2 Chron. 7:7).
NT - The On the Day of Pentecost, there were 120 disciples of Jesus present in the Upper Room (Acts 1:15). Mar, the Mother of Jesus and the Ark of the NEW Covenant was also present while the Holy Spirit came down as tongues of fire (Acts 2:3).

Thanks BOL...
At least I can see where you get it all...but for me it isn't convincing enough.

I couldn't find what you quoted here in the middle of this quote:-
< NT - The On the Day of Pentecost, there were 120 disciples of Jesus present in the Upper Room (Acts 1:15).
Yes, I found and read that scripture reference. But..Mary, the Mother of Jesus and the Ark of the NEW Covenant was also present while the Holy Spirit came down as tongues of fire (Acts 2:3). And I found and read Acts 2:3.. but what I didn't find was any reference saying:- "Mary, the Mother of Jesus and the Ark of the NEW Covenant was also present while the Holy Spirit came down ...etc" :oops:

That is not in the AKJV. ...maybe it is in the RC bible?

But thanks for the response and scriptures etc.

........H
 

Webers_Home

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Q: If Jesus Christ really was David's biological progeny-- and thus Adam's
--then wouldn't his mom have passed the consequences of Adam's sin to him?

A: Yes; absolutely, because the whole entirety of Adam's posterity--regardless
of age, race, or gender --is automatically condemned for tasting the forbidden
fruit.

Note the grammatical tense of the passage below; it's past tense; indicating
that the moment Adam tasted the forbidden fruit, he and his posterity
(which included Eve seeing as she came into being via the organic tissues of
his own body) became culpable-- in real time --including those of his
posterity yet to be born.

Rom 5:12 . . Sin entered the world through one man, and death through
sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned

Rom 5:19 . .Through the disobedience of the one man, the many were
made sinners.

However: though Adam's disobedience made his posterity sinners; it didn't
make them sinful: that's something else altogether. We're not talking about
the so-called "fallen nature" here, we're just talking about joint principals in
Adam's act of disobedience.

The good news is: Adam's sin is not a sin unto hell. No; it's very simple to
clear his sin off the books seeing as how life's end is the proper satisfaction
of justice for what he did (Gen 2:16-17). The satisfaction of justice for his
posterity's own personal sins is another matter.

Q: If Jesus Christ was made a joint principal in Adam's slip-up, then how can
it be honestly said that Christ was a lamb without blemish or spot?

A: Adam's slip made Christ culpable right along with his fellow men, yes; but
it didn't make him sinful. In point of fact; Christ committed no personal sins
of his own. (John 8:29, 2Cor 5:21, Heb 4:15, 1Pet 2:22)

Q: What was the secret to his success?

A: Jesus Christ is a mysterious amalgam of human and divine. Not only did
he descend from Adam, but Christ also descended from God; and I think that
most people would agree that divinity is easily able to overcome humanity.

/
 
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Helen

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Oh yes! It is what you have spoken here as Neheshtan, I believe. There was power invested in a look at the bronze snake on the pole at that particular time and that particular place, but people made it into their own tower of Babel... their own way to the heaven where God dwells, but it was not. For the particular instance it was but they couldn't see the forest for the trees. Of course there is no one like that around here...

Yes well said. :)
 

BreadOfLife

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Hi BOL. Everything ought to be charitable, don't you think? It is a Christian board! I disagree with the RCC on several things, but I know honest, born again Christians are found within her. And, while perhaps I cannot put ultimate authority on church tradition, I certainly recognize that we too hold our own in very high regard.

In regards to what Paul wrote...well, it's Paul! Paul was inspired by the Holy Spirit for the direct purpose of teaching and writing God's word down. The same goes for all other authors of the bible. We see in his use of these authors something quite unique that has not happened since then; the use of sinful man to put the Word of God on page for his children to have. We know that these men, without God's inspiring Holy Spirit upon them, were quite imperfect...scripture itself records their sins! Moses as he threw the Commandment tablets to the ground in fury; David as he took another mans wife, Peter as he refused to eat with Gentiles after what the Lord directly showed him. But what Moses put on page? What David wrote, or Peter? God's perfect words! And Paul...'chief of sinners', comforting the Thessalonians, who were being deceived by false letters and false teachings. Paul assures them that unless the letter came directly from him, or the teaching came from him (after all, he was sent by Christ himself to bring the gospel to the Gentiles!), then it should not be heeded.

I would like to point out two other things that should be considered.
When Jesus was being tempted in the wilderness by Satan, what did he turn to to defeat him? Jesus, who was God, who had the Holy Spirit, who was the only perfect human that exists....he defeated Satan with scripture! This is amazing, this is huge! The implications of this cannot be ignored, or at least shouldn't!
Also...Jesus wasn't too enamored of Church tradition. Of course, it wasn't the church back then, but the idea, I think, is similar. The Jews had the Law of God that they had to follow. But they had also added all these extra little things throughout the years that, by the time Jesus came along, they felt held as much weight as the Law. And, well...I don't really need to point out what Jesus thought of that, do I? Something to think about...?
Hmmmmm . . . .
I don't know where you get the idea that Jesus didn't like Tradition. He didn't care for the extra traditions (small "t") of the Pharisees that tried to usurp the Word of God - but he had absolutely NO problem with Tradition.

You point out that Jesus used Scripture to rebut Satan when He was being tempted - but Jesus also used and referred to Oral Tradition - and so did the NT writers . . .
- Matt 23:2 - Jesus relies on the ORAL TRADITION of acknowledging Moses' seat of authority (which passed from Moses to Joshua to the Sanhedrin). This is not recorded in the Old Testament.

- Matt. 2:23 - the prophecy "He shall be a Nazarene" is ORAL TRADITION. It is not found in the Old Testament. This demonstrates that the apostles relied upon oral tradition and taught by oral tradition.

- Eph 5:14 - Paul relies on ORAL TRADITION to quote an early Christian hymn - "awake O sleeper rise from the dead and Christ shall give you light."

- 1 Cor. 10:4 - Paul relies on the ORAL TRADITION of the rock following Moses. It is not recorded in the Old Testament. See Exodus 17:1-17 and Num. 20:2-13.

- Heb. 11:37 - the author of Hebrews relies on the ORAL TRADITION of the martyrs being sawed in two. This is not recorded in the Old Testament.

- Jude 9 - Jude relies on the ORAL TRADITION of the Archangel Michael's dispute with satan over Moses' body. This is not found in the Old Testament.

- Jude 14-15 - Jude relies on the ORAL TRADITION of Enoch's prophecy which is not recorded in the Old Testament.


As for the "small t" traditions of the Church - they don't hold as much weight as Scripture - and the Church has never claimed that they do. This is the difference between the traditions of the Pharisees and the traditions of the Church. ?These types of traditions are more about discipline and teaching that they are requirements.

I hope our conversation can continue to be charitable. Exchanges with some of the others on this forum always descend into hateful anti-Catholic tirades instead of edifying conversations.
 

BreadOfLife

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I have but you are too blind to see, now that I stand in opposition to you out comes the knives, how she hates it that great harlot, like mother like son.
Okay - how about starting fresh?
Let's pretend that we have never spoken and this is our first exchange.

Now - give me YOUR interpretation of the following passages:
Matt 16:18-19
And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it.
I will give YOU the keys to the kingdom of heaven. Whatever YOU bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; andwhatever YOU loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."

Matt. 18:15-18
"If your brother sins (against you), go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have won over your brother.
If he does not listen, take one or two others along with you, so that 'every fact may be established on the testimony of two or three witnesses.'
If he refuses to listen to them, tell the church. If he refuses to listen even to the church, then treat him as you would a Gentile or a tax collector.
Amen, I say to you, Whatever YOU bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever YOU loose on earth shall beloosed in heaven.

John 16:12-15
“I have much more to tell you, but you cannot bear it now.
But when he comes, the Spirit of truth, he will guide you to ALL truth. He will not speak on his own, but he will speak what he hears, and will declare to YOU the things that are coming.

He will glorify me, because he will TAKE from what is MINE and declare it to YOU.
Everything that the Father has is MINE; for this reason I told you that he will TAKE from what is MINEand declare it to YOU.

John 20:21-23
Jesus said to them again, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, so I send you.” And when he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, “Receive the holy Spirit. Whose sins YOU FORGIVE are forgiven them, and whose sins YOU RETAIN are retained

Luke 10:16
Whoever listens to YOU listens to ME. Whoever rejects YOU rejects ME. And whoever rejects ME rejects the ONE who sent ME."



I eagerly await your charitable response.
 

BreadOfLife

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Thanks BOL...
At least I can see where you get it all...but for me it isn't convincing enough.

I couldn't find what you quoted here in the middle of this quote:-
< NT - The On the Day of Pentecost, there were 120 disciples of Jesus present in the Upper Room (Acts 1:15).
Yes, I found and read that scripture reference. But..Mary, the Mother of Jesus and the Ark of the NEW Covenant was also present while the Holy Spirit came down as tongues of fire (Acts 2:3). And I found and read Acts 2:3.. but what I didn't find was any reference saying:- "Mary, the Mother of Jesus and the Ark of the NEW Covenant was also present while the Holy Spirit came down ...etc"

That is not in the AKJV. ...maybe it is in the RC bible?
But thanks for the response and scriptures etc.

........H
No, BG - the Catholic New Testament doesn't say "different" things than Protestant Bibles.

We read in Acts 1:14 that the 120, including the Apostles and Mary, "ALL joined together CONSTANTLY in prayer."
It is implied and believed that they were ALL there at Pentecost.

Acts 2 begins with, "When the day of Pentecost came, THEY WERE ALL TOGETHER in one place."
As I showed you - this even mirrors the dedication of Solomon's Temple where 120 priests and the Ark of the Covenant were present and the Spirit of God came down as FIRE.

It's your choice not to accept the OT type and NY fulfillment that this represents - but the Scriptural evidence is ALL over it . . .