Why Old Eschatologies Should Be Updated

[Keraz]

Wrong

The church grew as jesus said, from jerusalem. To Jude a to the ends of the earth, and even in the begining, it was jew and gentile alike

The physical regathering will be done by God himself. When HE returns them to the land. it is not a spiritual event,, if it is, prophecy is nonsense.

You have glossed over the plain directions of Jesus to the Apostles: Go to the lost sheep of the House of Israel.... Matthew 10:3-5
Did they disobey Jesus? No; they went to where they knew the 10 Northern tribes were settled at that time. The Galatians, for example, were known to be descendants of the Israelite peoples of the Assyrian captivity.

Re the gathering: It is physical, many prophesies describe it, Psalms 107, Isaiah 66:18b-21, Zechariah 8:1-13 The people will do it, with God's help.

 

[Trekson]

So, you believe that the meek in the church won't inherit the earth? I don't recall scripture making that distinction. It just says that the meek will inherit the earth. No exceptions are given.

As for these promises you're talking about, which I would assume relate to the promises God made to Abraham and his seed? Paul applied those promises to Jesus Christ Himself and those who belong to Christ (Galatians 3:16-29). It's too bad that you would rather define for yourself who the promises apply to rather than letting scripture determine that for you.

Jesus was speaking to the Jews at that point but believers in general should be meek when the situation requires it and ditto for being warriors. I don't determine anything I simply believe what the bible says, if you disagree take it up w/ God. He can do what He wants, if he wants two peoples w/ two different destinies that's His business. God is no respecter of persons for this present time but when the times of the gentiles are fulfilled, that will change.

 

[Trekson]

Did you even read my post? I was talking about the NT authors, not the OT authors. I very specifically referenced the New Testament authors. How could you miss that unless you don't read carefully at all? The NT authors knew what they were prophesying about. The days of everything being a mystery were over. Things that were before purposely made a mystery by God in the Old Testament are revealed in the New Testament.

Here's one example of what I'm talking about:

Ephesians 3:1 For this reason I, Paul, the prisoner of Christ Jesus for the sake of you Gentiles—2 Surely you have heard about the administration of God’s grace that was given to me for you, 3 that is, the mystery made known to me by revelation, as I have already written briefly. 4 In reading this, then, you will be able to understand my insight into the mystery of Christ, 5 which was not made known to people in other generations as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to God’s holy apostles and prophets. 6 This mystery is that through the gospel the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel, members together of one body, and sharers together in the promise in Christ Jesus.

Here is another example:

1 Corinthians 15:51 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.

Eph. wasn't a prophesy, it was a revelation of things actually being fulfilled in his day. Yes, this is a prophesy and a fact but Paul was just given the headlines, he doesn't know details of the when, or the how. But the NT authors didn't know exactly what the fulfillments would look like. The most descriptive is Matt. 24, there are a lot of headlines or chapters but the actual facts of much of it, exactly who will be involved, when. where, etc. yes some generalities are given but do you actually think he knew what the future and society and technology would look like and be like when these get fulfilled?? There's no way they could.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

When did Israel steal the land from God?

When did God fail to keep his promise?

Gen 15: 17 And it came to pass, when the sun went down and it was dark, that behold, there appeared a smoking oven and a burning torch that passed between those pieces. 18 On the same day the Lord made a covenant with Abram, saying:

“To your descendants I have given this land, from the river of Egypt to the great river, the River Euphrates— 19 the Kenites, the Kenezzites, the Kadmonites, 20 the Hittites, the Perizzites, the Rephaim, 21 the Amorites, the Canaanites, the Girgashites, and the Jebusites.”

Gen 17: 8 Also I give to you and your descendants after you the land in[f] which you are a stranger, all the land of Canaan, as an everlasting possession; and I will be their God.”

Once again, when does eternal or everlasing end??

Yes it is God. Abraham inherited as did all of his descendents..

 

[Eternally Grateful]

You have glossed over the plain directions of Jesus to the Apostles: Go to the lost sheep of the House of Israel.... Matthew 10:3-5
Did they disobey Jesus? No; they went to where they knew the 10 Northern tribes were settled at that time. The Galatians, for example, were known to be descendants of the Israelite peoples of the Assyrian captivity.

Re the gathering: It is physical, many prophesies describe it, Psalms 107, Isaiah 66:18b-21, Zechariah 8:1-13 The people will do it, with God's help.

lol.. The Galatians were gentiles even the roman church was called by paul a gentile church

the sameritans were the "half breads" or of the lost tribes..

It was prophesied that the gospel would go to the gentiles. it did.

Hosea:

“I will call them My people, who were not My people,
And her beloved, who was not beloved.”
“And it shall come to pass in the place where it was said to them,
‘You are not My people,’
There they shall be called sons of the living God.

not only this, the prophecy has not met its end

it says they will no longer sin, there are in open rebellion of God
it says they will never be seperated again - they have never been united
it says they will have one king.. and be in their land. there are still more jews outside the land than in the land.. God has not brought them back yet as the prophecy states

in order for a prophesy to be fulfilled. ALL parts have to literally come true.

 

[Davy]

If one can't understand plain english then one shouldn't respond to something that was never said or implied

When it's time to declare gross falseness against God's Word, it's time, regardless of how a deceiver may feel about it.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Interesting thought.
Had some things zing through my mind when reading your post.

Seal up the book until the time of the end certainly does seem to support your thought.

The other thought I had was my uneasiness at so much of what science and pharmacology are dabbling in. I believe
something happened genetically to pollute the human bloodline (though I don’t know how) and I think I see shadows of it maybe occurring again in some odd fashion. Lots of strange talk, computer chips in brains, mRNA shots that give instructions to dna on what protein to assemble and how to assemble it. As it was in the days of Noah so will it be…and jumbled up with that is something that may happen that causes men to seek death but not be ABLE to die? What kind of genetic mess could cause THAT…?

Oh yes, one more. And as it was in the days of Lot. That’s also looking like a sickening repeat may occur, seeing shadows of there too. Men wanted to have some sort of relation with the angels Lot took home, whether they knew they were angels or not I don’t know.

It grows sicker, that’s for sure.

Yea, it's something to contemplate how far God will let things go as Western Civilization collapses into a moral abyss? Things I never dreamed of happening when I was a young Christian kid are happening today. The loss of any real sense of gender? Man's cruelty to man in war and in politics? Big Brother? Scientific experimentation that leads to pandemics and who knows what with human DNA?

It is interesting to note that as God has increased our technology, according to world population growth, there has come about all of the accompanying technology to manage a world filled with people. But that was God's original plan, to fill the earth with people.

What I'm sure God anticipated was the failure of the whole world to live in His own image, and the need to correct this by judgment. And so, we have modern weapons of war that are bringing us to the bring of Armageddon. There clearly is an evil spirit in this world driving mankind to destroy this world and each other. Our hope is squarely on Revelation 19-20. When we can turn swords into plowshares I don't believe we'll be turning the clock backwards? Rather, I think we'll be righting the ship?

 

[covenantee]

When did God fail to keep his promise?

Gen 15: 17 And it came to pass, when the sun went down and it was dark, that behold, there appeared a smoking oven and a burning torch that passed between those pieces. 18 On the same day the Lord made a covenant with Abram, saying:

“To your descendants I have given this land, from the river of Egypt to the great river, the River Euphrates— 19 the Kenites, the Kenezzites, the Kadmonites, 20 the Hittites, the Perizzites, the Rephaim, 21 the Amorites, the Canaanites, the Girgashites, and the Jebusites.”

Gen 17: 8 Also I give to you and your descendants after you the land in[f] which you are a stranger, all the land of Canaan, as an everlasting possession; and I will be their God.”

Once again, when does eternal or everlasing end??

Yes it is God. Abraham inherited as did all of his descendents..

When did God relinquish His right to demand faith and obedience as the conditions of His promises?

Deuteronomy 30:17-18 (KJV) – “But if thine heart turn away, so that thou wilt not hear, but shalt be drawn away, and worship other gods, and serve them; I denounce unto you this day, that ye shall surely perish, and that ye shall not prolong your days upon the land, whither thou passest over Jordan to go to possess it.”

 

[Eternally Grateful]

When did God relinquish His right to demand faith and obedience as the conditions of His promises?

there is where the misinformation comes. He did not demand faith and obedience when he gave the land. He said I Give you. it was an unconditional covenant. I WILL.. in fact. when he made the covenant, Abraham was put to sleep God walked himself and swore and oath.

Your talking about the mosaic covenant, which is a different story..no one has kept the mosaic covenant, so no one jew or gentile would receive a gift according to that conditional covenant..

Deuteronomy 30:17-18 (KJV) – “But if thine heart turn away, so that thou wilt not hear, but shalt be drawn away, and worship other gods, and serve them; I denounce unto you this day, that ye shall surely perish, and that ye shall not prolong your days upon the land, whither thou passest over Jordan to go to possess it.”

again see lev 26.

If they obey,. they will live in peace.

if they disobay, there will come a time when God will destroy their high places tear down their temple. and have them scatted throughout the nations. while their land remains desolate.

but if they repent. God will remember the land.

The land is still theres, by gift to the fathers.. the gift and calling of God are irrevocable

Them livin in that land, however, demands obedience.. they must repewnt before they can be let back in

the prophecies in the OT and paul in romans 11 says there will be a day when they repent. and THEN they will be restored..

but the land promise is still in effect.. it is an eternal gift..

 

[covenantee]

He did not demand faith and obedience when he gave the land.

You'll notice that Deuteronomy follows Genesis, thus represents God's last Word on the land, and that Word was, entirely unsurprisingly, contingent upon faith and obedience.

Hebrews 1
1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

Who is the Heir of all things?

Is it God's Son?
or
Is it Israel?

 

[Davy]

there is where the misinformation comes. He did not demand faith and obedience when he gave the land. He said I Give you. it was an unconditional covenant. I WILL.. in fact. when he made the covenant, Abraham was put to sleep God walked himself and swore and oath.

Your talking about the mosaic covenant, which is a different story..no one has kept the mosaic covenant, so no one jew or gentile would receive a gift according to that conditional covenant..

again see lev 26.

If they obey,. they will live in peace.

if they disobay, there will come a time when God will destroy their high places tear down their temple. and have them scatted throughout the nations. while their land remains desolate.

but if they repent. God will remember the land.

The land is still theres, by gift to the fathers.. the gift and calling of God are irrevocable

Them livin in that land, however, demands obedience.. they must repewnt before they can be let back in

the prophecies in the OT and paul in romans 11 says there will be a day when they repent. and THEN they will be restored..

but the land promise is still in effect.. it is an eternal gift..

Correct.

Only those of bloodline Israel who confess Christ Jesus will be allowed to have their original inheritances to be restored. And Isaiah 54 says to make room for the believing Gentiles. The pagan foreigners who refuse Christ will be cast out.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

You'll notice that Deuteronomy follows Genesis, thus represents God's last Word on the land, and that Word was, entirely unsurprisingly, contingent upon faith and obedience.

Hebrews 1
1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

Who is the Heir of all things?

Is it God's Son?
or
Is it Israel?

it does not matter where it falls

God told Abraham I give you and your descendants after you this land forever.

He did no9t make demands of Abraham. He said, I WILL

the abrahamic covenant is a unconditional covernant.. The covenent of faith you and I have recieved christ was unconditional. the land that God promised to the children of Jacob is unconditional..

God later made conditions for them to live in the land in peace.. But those conditions had no bearing on the original gift.

I am still waiting for you to tell me when forever ends.. do you have an answer?

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Correct.

Only those of bloodline Israel who confess Christ Jesus will be allowed to have their original inheritances to be restored. And Isaiah 54 says to make room for the believing Gentiles. The pagan foreigners who refuse Christ will be cast out.

Paul and many OT prophets say ALL of Israel will repent. and they will be restored. And believing gentiles sill live in their own lands and come once a year to Jerusalem to worship the king.

 

[Davy]

Paul and many OT prophets say ALL of Israel will repent. and they will be restored. And believing gentiles sill live in their own lands and come once a year to Jerusalem to worship the king.

Those who come once a year to worship is about the unsaved nations of Rev.20. That is Millennial timing. Those who refused Christ, including Jews, will NOT be allowed to approach Jesus in that future time. Only the spiritual Zadok (The Just) will be allowed to serve Christ at His table in that time (see Ezekiel 44).

Thus Jesus' promise of John 14 about preparing an abode in God's House of the future will involve only Christ's very elect in that future time, those who reign with Him.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Those who come once a year to worship is about the unsaved nations of Rev.20. That is Millennial timing. Those who refused Christ, including Jews, will NOT be allowed to approach Jesus in that future time. Only the spiritual Zadok (The Just) will be allowed to serve Christ at His table in that time (see Ezekiel 44).

Thus Jesus' promise of John 14 about preparing an abode in God's House of the future will involve only Christ's very elect in that future time, those who reign with Him.

Jews will be in the land,. Jesus will be there king. the nations must come once a year. they are not unsaved nations.. They are nations which have many believers in them.. Although there will grow unbelievers as time goes forward as shown by the final rebellion.. the origional earth post final battle will be full of all believers. all non believers are lost (dead)

 

[covenantee]

it does not matter where it falls

God told Abraham I give you and your descendants after you this land forever.

He did no9t make demands of Abraham. He said, I WILL

the abrahamic covenant is a unconditional covernant.. The covenent of faith you and I have recieved christ was unconditional. the land that God promised to the children of Jacob is unconditional..

God later made conditions for them to live in the land in peace.. But those conditions had no bearing on the original gift.

I am still waiting for you to tell me when forever ends.. do you have an answer?

Exodus 21:6
Then his master shall bring him unto the judges; he shall also bring him to the door, or unto the door post; and his master shall bore his ear through with an aul; and he shall serve him for ever.

 

[Davy]

Jews will be in the land,. Jesus will be there king. the nations must come once a year. they are not unsaved nations.. They are nations which have many believers in them.. Although there will grow unbelievers as time goes forward as shown by the final rebellion.. the origional earth post final battle will be full of all believers. all non believers are lost (dead)

Sorry, but I think you don't realize that the majority of Israelites were not, and still are NOT Jews.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Exodus 21:6
Then his master shall bring him unto the judges; he shall also bring him to the door, or unto the door post; and his master shall bore his ear through with an aul; and he shall serve him for ever.

you keep sidestepping the question.

I showed you where God gave Abraham and his descendants forever.

when does forever end?

If you can't answer. just say so.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Sorry, but I think you don't realize that the majority of Israelites were not, and still are NOT Jews.

it does not matter what I think

God said they will all be saved, I agree with him.. He knows who they are and where they are.. it is not up to me to determine that..

 

[covenantee]

you keep sidestepping the question.

I showed you where God gave Abraham and his descendants forever.

when does forever end?

If you can't answer. just say so.

Exodus 21:6
Then his master shall bring him unto the judges; he shall also bring him to the door, or unto the door post; and his master shall bore his ear through with an aul; and he shall serve him for ever.

When does "for ever" end in Exodus 21:6?

"If you can't answer. just say so."