Why Old Eschatologies Should Be Updated

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Randy Kluth

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Fulfilled long ago.

Joshua 21
43 And the Lord gave unto Israel all the land which he sware to give unto their fathers; and they possessed it, and dwelt therein.
44 And the Lord gave them rest round about, according to all that he sware unto their fathers: and there stood not a man of all their enemies before them; the Lord delivered all their enemies into their hand.
45 There failed not ought of any good thing which the Lord had spoken unto the house of Israel; all came to pass.

God is not a racist.

Stop trying to contort Him into one.
Are you a bigot because you are concerned for your own children to get a job and prosper, instead of looking out for the children of other parents? No, and neither is God a bigot for promising Abraham that his faithfulness would lead to his own descendants being blessed.

The partial fulfillment of possessing the Promised Land did not exhaust the prophecies. Israel clearly was promised a return following judgment. And they were promised a time would come when they would be restored, never more to be destroyed or exiled. You completely ignore this!
 

covenantee

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Are you a bigot because you are concerned for your own children to get a job and prosper, instead of looking out for the children of other parents? No, and neither is God a bigot for promising Abraham that his faithfulness would lead to his own descendants being blessed.

The partial fulfillment of possessing the Promised Land did not exhaust the prophecies. Israel clearly was promised a return following judgment. And they were promised a time would come when they would be restored, never more to be destroyed or exiled. You completely ignore this!
You just can't believe that God would actually completely fulfill one of His promises instead of delaying it into your fantasized falsified future, can you.

Are you also one of those who deny that Christ completely established His New Covenant at Calvary in total fulfillment of Daniel 9:24, Matthew 26:28, et al?

Do let us know.
 

Randy Kluth

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You just can't believe that God would actually completely fulfill one of His promises instead of delaying it into your fantasized falsified future, can you.

Are you also one of those who deny that Christ completely established His New Covenant at Calvary in total fulfillment of Daniel 9:24, Matthew 26:28, et al?

Do let us know.
I'm a proponent of Finished Work at the Cross. I do *not* believe that *all prophecy* has been completed, nor that all people who will be saved have been saved yet. I do not have a "fantasized, falsified future," whatever that means? I suppose you just can't help yourself? Do you believe that every one who disagrees with your systematic theology is a heretic?
 

Trekson

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That kind of thinking is totally ABSURD, and is against The Word of God.

Secular Humanists reason like what you have posted. It is they... that think The Bible is an outdated document. And that kind of thinking means THEY DO NOT BELIEVE THE BIBLE IS THE INSPIRED WORD OF GOD.

So thank you... for revealing to us who you REALLY are. Jesus said those of us in Christ would know folks like you by your 'fruit'.
If one can't understand plain english then one shouldn't respond to something that was never said or implied
 

Keraz

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this is not the church. The church was never divided. and made dry bones because of her sin. nor was she scattered thr4oughout all the nations because of her sin.
The Church grew from the scattered 10 Tribes. They were the people the Apostles went to and preached the Gospel. As Jesus directed them to do; Matthew 10:5-6.....Go to the lost sheep of the House of Israel.
The Gospel is how they were Spiritually regenerated. Ezekiel 37:1-14, and their re-joining with the House of Judah will happen after the Lord's Day of fiery wrath has cleansed the holy Land. Jeremiah 50:4-5, Ezekiel 37:15-28
 

Trekson

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This is complete nonsense. Do you realize that what you're saying here even brings the knowledge level and wisdom of the New Testament authors into question? Do you think they didn't understand what the prophecies were about and we're only just now starting to understand them? God forbid! Of course the New Testament authors understood them and so did those they taught directly as well as many Christians ever since. This idea of things only being revealed more recently is typical of how cults think.
Did the OT authors really know what they were prophesying about? No way! Israel had zero understanding of Christ coming as a Savior and not a military leader, that's why many rejected him in the first place. I think Dan. 12:4 is pretty self explanatory. Most prophecies can only be accurately understood by the generation they were written for, that's just plain common sense. Did John recognize all of what he was seeing? Absolutely not! There is no way a first century man would know what a 21st century device was so he could only describe them as best as he could w/ the limited knowledge he had. Do you think Adam had total knowledge of the first prophecy in Gen. 3:15??? The plain simple fact is that much of Revelation couldn't be understood until the 19th century at best, and in many cases not until the late 20th century at a minimum. Just plain simple truth! If you can't understand it, then your thinking processes are wrong, unless you're a historicist, then that would explain much of the lack of knowledge being expressed.
 

Spiritual Israelite

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Did the OT authors really know what they were prophesying about? No way! Israel had zero understanding of Christ coming as a Savior and not a military leader, that's why many rejected him in the first place. I think Dan. 12:4 is pretty self explanatory. Most prophecies can only be accurately understood by the generation they were written for, that's just plain common sense. Did John recognize all of what he was seeing? Absolutely not! There is no way a first century man would know what a 21st century device was so he could only describe them as best as he could w/ the limited knowledge he had. Do you think Adam had total knowledge of the first prophecy in Gen. 3:15??? The plain simple fact is that much of Revelation couldn't be understood until the 19th century at best, and in many cases not until the late 20th century at a minimum. Just plain simple truth! If you can't understand it, then your thinking processes are wrong, unless you're a historicist, then that would explain much of the lack of knowledge being expressed.
Did you even read my post? I was talking about the NT authors, not the OT authors. I very specifically referenced the New Testament authors. How could you miss that unless you don't read carefully at all? The NT authors knew what they were prophesying about. The days of everything being a mystery were over. Things that were before purposely made a mystery by God in the Old Testament are revealed in the New Testament.

Here's one example of what I'm talking about:

Ephesians 3:1 For this reason I, Paul, the prisoner of Christ Jesus for the sake of you Gentiles—2 Surely you have heard about the administration of God’s grace that was given to me for you, 3 that is, the mystery made known to me by revelation, as I have already written briefly. 4 In reading this, then, you will be able to understand my insight into the mystery of Christ, 5 which was not made known to people in other generations as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to God’s holy apostles and prophets. 6 This mystery is that through the gospel the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel, members together of one body, and sharers together in the promise in Christ Jesus.

Here is another example:

1 Corinthians 15:51 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.
 

Eternally Grateful

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You're not being clear here. Who are you saying are God's people? All of Israel (all Israelites) or just the remnant? It's only the remnant who are chosen so they are God's people. Do you agree? The rest of Israel besides the remnant are not God's people because they rejected Christ. Do you agree?

What did Paul say. Did he not say many of THEM rejected Christ? read what I showed again. Your argument is not with me


To be clear, it's because of the rejection of the Israelites who were not among the remnant and not the rejection of all Israel. Do you agree?

The nation rejected him. But not everyone in that nation rejected him..
Again, you're not being completely clear. To be more clear, I would say that Paul did not separate the remnant of Israelite believers from the saved Gentiles, but only the rest of Israel who did not believe. Agree?

He separated Israel from saved gentiles. Isreal as a nation rejected God. and through their rejection. salvation came to the gentiles

The context is who are THEY..
No. You are not taking into account that Paul spoke about two different Israels as can be seen in what he had written a bit earlier in the letter:

Romans 9:6 It is not as though God’s word had failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel. 7 Nor because they are his descendants are they all Abraham’s children. On the contrary, “It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned.” 8 In other words, it is not the children by physical descent who are God’s children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham’s offspring.

Paul differentiated here between an Israel of which not all who are physically descended from the nation of Israel are part. Let's call that spiritual Israel. Of that Israel, Paul said "It is not the children by physical descent who are God's children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham's offspring". Can you see here how one of the Israels Paul referenced is entirely spiritual in nature since being part of it has nothing to do with where someone has physically descended from, but rather has to do with being children of God and children of the promise? Who are the ones who are the children of God and of the promise? Christians, according to Galatians 3:26-29.

So, keeping in mind that there are two Israels, which one is blinded in part? The nation of Israel. The remnant were saved and the rest were blinded. It was part of Paul's mission to lead some of those who were blinded to salvation (Romans 11:11-14) by way of them becoming jealous of the salvation of the Gentiles. Of which Israel are all saved? Not the nation of Israel. Only a remnant are saved from the nation of Israel. It is Spiritual Israel of which all are saved. So, that is the Israel being referenced in Romans 11:26.

In Romans 11:26-27, Paul was not making a new prophecy about the future of the nation of Israel, but rather was talking about the fulfillment of an Old Testament prophecy (from Isaiah 59:20-21) by way of a covenant that takes away the sins of Israel. It should not be hard to understand that it's talking about the new covenant there which was established by the blood of Christ long ago. What other covenant is there by which sins are taken away? There are none. So, Paul was speaking of a current and ongoing reality for Spiritual Israel in Romans 11:26-27 and not about a future reality for the nation of Israel.


To be clear, only Israelite unbelievers are enemies, not Israelite believers.


Again, to be clear, it is only the remnant of believers who are beloved and not Christ rejecting unbelievers. You are failing to differentiate between believing and unbelieving Israelites here and acting as if it instead is always speaking of all of Israel.


You need to stick to context which I showed in this post. You clearly did not take into account that there are two Israels before making this post.
Lol. Why are you going to chapter 9? You did not even take everything paul said in chapter 11 about who THEY are.. Your just nit picking verses and ignoring the rest.

ISREAL as a nation are enemies. But at the same time THEY are to be loved because of the fathers.

God made a promise to the fathers. An eternal promise. Your saying God is no longer going to keep that promise. That makes God a liar.

I did not ignore two isreal.. Paul told us who they were (believers israel or the remnant, and unbelieving israel) and who is not art of Israel (gentile believers)

you need to reread my post and actually pay attention to the whole. You can;t break it up. Because multiple times paul tells us WHO they are..
 

Eternally Grateful

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How convenient that we're somehow not talking about THAT promise. :rolleyes:


As for the land promise, do you understand that Abraham and other Old Testament saints came to understand that they should be looking for something much better than that? A heavenly country and a city whose builder and maker is God? Have you never read Hebrews 11:8-16?
Just because they understood they were to look for something better, does not mean the actual promise God gave to them here on earth is to be ignored. Or rejected.

Its convenient for you to not want to talk about that promise. Because then you can ignore what was said. And continue to believe as you do.
 

Eternally Grateful

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Fulfilled long ago.

Joshua 21
43 And the Lord gave unto Israel all the land which he sware to give unto their fathers; and they possessed it, and dwelt therein.
44 And the Lord gave them rest round about, according to all that he sware unto their fathers: and there stood not a man of all their enemies before them; the Lord delivered all their enemies into their hand.
45 There failed not ought of any good thing which the Lord had spoken unto the house of Israel; all came to pass.

God is not a racist.

Stop trying to contort Him into one.
The land was an eternal gift.

An eternal life is eternal. It is not fulfilled. Then stopped.

The gift of God is irrevocable..

God gave them provisions for living in that land in lev 26. They are currently scattered because of lev 26. But lev 26 says even after that, if they repent, God will remember them and the promise to the fathers.

Rom 11 says they will repent..

I know you don;t like it. But it does not matter what we like. When God makes a promise he keeps it. When he says something will happen. It will, we can deny it and hate it and hide from it because it is against our belief all we want. Gods will will still come true and his promises will stand
 

Eternally Grateful

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The Church grew from the scattered 10 Tribes. They were the people the Apostles went to and preached the Gospel. As Jesus directed them to do; Matthew 10:5-6.....Go to the lost sheep of the House of Israel.
The Gospel is how they were Spiritually regenerated. Ezekiel 37:1-14, and their re-joining with the House of Judah will happen after the Lord's Day of fiery wrath has cleansed the holy Land. Jeremiah 50:4-5, Ezekiel 37:15-28
Wrong

The church grew as jesus said, from jerusalem. To Jude a to the ends of the earth, and even in the begining, it was jew and gentile alike

The physical regathering will be done by God himself. When HE returns them to the land. it is not a spiritual event,, if it is, prophecy is nonsense.
 

covenantee

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The land was an eternal gift.

An eternal life is eternal. It is not fulfilled. Then stopped.

The gift of God is irrevocable..

God gave them provisions for living in that land in lev 26. They are currently scattered because of lev 26. But lev 26 says even after that, if they repent, God will remember them and the promise to the fathers.

Rom 11 says they will repent..

I know you don;t like it. But it does not matter what we like. When God makes a promise he keeps it. When he says something will happen. It will, we can deny it and hate it and hide from it because it is against our belief all we want. Gods will will still come true and his promises will stand
Leviticus 25
23 The land shall not be sold for ever: for the land is mine, for ye are strangers and sojourners with me.

God, not Israel, owns the land.

Hebrews 1
1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

God's Son, not Israel, is the Heir of all things.
 
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Eternally Grateful

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Leviticus 25
23 The land shall not be sold for ever: for the land is mine, for ye are strangers and sojourners with me.

God, not Israel, owns the land.

Hebrews 1
1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

God's Son, not Israel, is the Heir of all things.
Lol..
go back and read the abrahamic covenant. And see what God said..

I give you this land FOREVER in ALL YOUR GENERATIONS.

when does FOREVER end?
 

Randy Kluth

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Were Daniel 9:24 and Matthew 26:28 Finished Works at the Cross?
I believe they referred to that yes. Regardless of how one interprets these, I'm a proponent of the Finished Work of Christ at the Cross. Christ is the fulfillment of the atonement for which the Covenant Promises can be kept. But for God to keep His Promises, Israel and many nations must be restored to be the People of God, the International Church. That *must* include the Israeli nation.
 

covenantee

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I believe they referred to that yes. Regardless of how one interprets these, I'm a proponent of the Finished Work of Christ at the Cross. Christ is the fulfillment of the atonement for which the Covenant Promises can be kept. But for God to keep His Promises, Israel and many nations must be restored to be the People of God, the International Church. That *must* include the Israeli nation.
I'm not sure I understand your response, so let me simplify the question.

Did Christ completely fulfill Daniel 9:24 at Calvary?
 

Randy Kluth

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I'm not sure I understand your response, so let me simplify the question.

Did Christ completely fulfill Daniel 9:24 at Calvary?
My understanding is that the 6 elements involved in this prophecy did refer to Christ's 1st Coming. I cannot say that his role in this is exhaustive in terms of fulfilling its ramifications. He came to die as an atonement for sin so that not just prophecy about his 1st Coming would be fulfilled, but also so that all prophecy can be fulfilled at some later date.

Prophecy of Jesus' 1st Coming and Finished Work was accomplished at the Cross. But that just set the stage for fulfillment of God's Promises to Abraham and to Israel.
 

Randy Kluth

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Dan 9.24 “Seventy ‘sevens’ are decreed for your people and your holy city to finish transgression, to put an end to sin, to atone for wickedness, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the Most Holy Place.

Israel's rebellion against God reached its apex when they rejected Christ. This brought Israel's final Sin, for which she was to be judged throughout the NT era, to an end. To judge Israel was to "finish transgression." It *ended sin* in Israel by deporting the population, which is how God had dealt with Israel's apostasy under the Law.

Israel's sin of rejecting Christ would be judged, bringing Israel's place as a Nation of God to an end. They would be cast into exile, and their nation would cease to exist. This brought an end to their sin, at least in the land of Israel.

Part of "atoning for sin" is in offering a proper remedy against the perpetrators. In this case, Israel was the perpetrator, and Christ's death spelled their Sin in its most awful way, though as a means of reconciliation back to God. Though this took place only for the few who accepted him the way was provided for the ultimate reconciliation of all Israel with God.

To make things right after Israel's rebellion in rejecting Christ, their sin had to be removed, to be replaced with a righteousness that would last. Israel's righteousness had not lasted, however. Only Christ's righteousness existed as the means of restoring Israel to righteousness. In providing Eternal Life along with his own righteousness, and by giving this righteousness to his disciples, Jesus provided a righteousness that would last forever. By virtue of his resurrection from the dead, Christ's righteousness remains available to Israel and to all men with faith by accessing his Spirit.

Christ himself sealed up vision and prophecy by becoming the promised means of Israel's future Salvation. He had to do this by 1st bringing Israel into judgment. Later, those few who accepted him would be given positions of authority over the nation to bring it back into conformity with righteousness. The Messianic prophecies Jesus fulfilled were on behalf of the Finished Work of Atonement he came to supply. It did not, however, mean that God's promises had been completed for Israel and for the world--only the means by which these things could be accomplished were provided for at that time.

Given that the "Holy Place" of the temple was to be destroyed, as predicted by Christ as a judgment against Israel, he himself became the anointing of the temple by declaring himself the heavenly temple, one that would never be destroyed. He anointed the most holy place by presenting himself at God's temple in heaven, anointing it as the future place where God would forever dwell with Israel and with all believers.
 

stunnedbygrace

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Per Daniel 12 we know that spiritual and secular knowledge will increase in the latter days yet many of us cling to millennia and centuries old eschatologies even though there is no real modern scriptural basis for them. Beliefs like amill, postmill, preterism and historicism need to be upgraded because we should be no longer bound to generations that didn’t have the scientific and spiritual insights that God has granted us in these latter days.

In the past few decades and even in the past couple of years we have learned things that should have caused many of us to realize that futurism is what Revelations is all about and if one is paying attention, God has affirmed these truths to us in several ways. Imo, the only reason peoples eyes aren’t opening is because of pride, selective blindness or traditionalism.

A lot of these beliefs came into being because of what I consider to be spiritual impatience. “Surely, Christ wouldn’t have stayed away this long, we must have overlooked something”. So since the reality of latter days prophecies were literally incomprehensible, they made up “symbolic and spiritual fulfilments” to compensate themselves for their eschatological weaknesses. Imo, if many of the “fathers” of these false eschatologies were witness to the prophetic events beginning w/ 1948 and including these present days they would never have come into being.

So what has God been showing us that should give those folks a wake-up call? There are at least 8 events that should cause true students of the bible to rethink their ancient eschatologies and take a literal approach towards prophecy. First, we now know that various size meteors could cause the damages in Rev. 8. We know that China alone has a military exceeding the 200 million of Rev. 9:16. Through satellite technology and the internet we now know how Rev. 11:9 will become a literal reality.

We know that Israel and Jerusalem are back on the world scene and some should no longer use their lack of existence to keep replacement theology a reality “when the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled”! With the recent hasty withdrawal from Afghanistan we can now see how Rev. 12:14 will become a reality. With the anti-christian rhetoric even with our own American politicians we can see how easily it could escalate into a severe time of persecution and martyrdom known as the “great tribulation”! With the vaccine mandates and modern technology we can see how easily Rev. 13:16-17 would literally be fulfilled and how easily the world would fall for their deceptions and “believe the lie”! With all the ships sitting offshore waiting to be unloaded we can see what Rev. 18:17-19 will look like when that becomes a reality.

God has graciously given us these signs so that those who have been deceived by eschatologies from the past will wake-up and realize that time is indeed short for His return and to not be so arrogant and so self-assured in their false beliefs that they would foolishly accept the mark of the beast (whatever form that takes) when it makes its appearance. The question becomes: Are you listening?!
Interesting thought.
Had some things zing through my mind when reading your post.

Seal up the book until the time of the end certainly does seem to support your thought.

The other thought I had was my uneasiness at so much of what science and pharmacology are dabbling in. I believe
something happened genetically to pollute the human bloodline (though I don’t know how) and I think I see shadows of it maybe occurring again in some odd fashion. Lots of strange talk, computer chips in brains, mRNA shots that give instructions to dna on what protein to assemble and how to assemble it. As it was in the days of Noah so will it be…and jumbled up with that is something that may happen that causes men to seek death but not be ABLE to die? What kind of genetic mess could cause THAT…?

Oh yes, one more. And as it was in the days of Lot. That’s also looking like a sickening repeat may occur, seeing shadows of there too. Men wanted to have some sort of relation with the angels Lot took home, whether they knew they were angels or not I don’t know.

It grows sicker, that’s for sure.
 
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