Why Old Eschatologies Should Be Updated

[Spiritual Israelite]

Per Daniel 12 we know that spiritual and secular knowledge will increase in the latter days yet many of us cling to millennia and centuries old eschatologies even though there is no real modern scriptural basis for them. Beliefs like amill, postmill, preterism and historicism need to be upgraded because we should be no longer bound to generations that didn’t have the scientific and spiritual insights that God has granted us in these latter days.

In the past few decades and even in the past couple of years we have learned things that should have caused many of us to realize that futurism is what Revelations is all about and if one is paying attention, God has affirmed these truths to us in several ways. Imo, the only reason peoples eyes aren’t opening is because of pride, selective blindness or traditionalism.

A lot of these beliefs came into being because of what I consider to be spiritual impatience. “Surely, Christ wouldn’t have stayed away this long, we must have overlooked something”. So since the reality of latter days prophecies were literally incomprehensible, they made up “symbolic and spiritual fulfilments” to compensate themselves for their eschatological weaknesses. Imo, if many of the “fathers” of these false eschatologies were witness to the prophetic events beginning w/ 1948 and including these present days they would never have come into being.

So what has God been showing us that should give those folks a wake-up call? There are at least 8 events that should cause true students of the bible to rethink their ancient eschatologies and take a literal approach towards prophecy. First, we now know that various size meteors could cause the damages in Rev. 8. We know that China alone has a military exceeding the 200 million of Rev. 9:16. Through satellite technology and the internet we now know how Rev. 11:9 will become a literal reality.

We know that Israel and Jerusalem are back on the world scene and some should no longer use their lack of existence to keep replacement theology a reality “when the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled”! With the recent hasty withdrawal from Afghanistan we can now see how Rev. 12:14 will become a reality. With the anti-christian rhetoric even with our own American politicians we can see how easily it could escalate into a severe time of persecution and martyrdom known as the “great tribulation”! With the vaccine mandates and modern technology we can see how easily Rev. 13:16-17 would literally be fulfilled and how easily the world would fall for their deceptions and “believe the lie”! With all the ships sitting offshore waiting to be unloaded we can see what Rev. 18:17-19 will look like when that becomes a reality.

God has graciously given us these signs so that those who have been deceived by eschatologies from the past will wake-up and realize that time is indeed short for His return and to not be so arrogant and so self-assured in their false beliefs that they would foolishly accept the mark of the beast (whatever form that takes) when it makes its appearance. The question becomes: Are you listening?!

This is complete nonsense. Do you realize that what you're saying here even brings the knowledge level and wisdom of the New Testament authors into question? Do you think they didn't understand what the prophecies were about and we're only just now starting to understand them? God forbid! Of course the New Testament authors understood them and so did those they taught directly as well as many Christians ever since. This idea of things only being revealed more recently is typical of how cults think.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

No, the problem is for some reason folks believe God is a liar and not one to keep his promises. Read the last chapter of every OT prophecy book which is talking about national Israel. They will be the ones who inherit the earth, along w/ some living gentiles, the church has heaven. Even Jesus prophesied about that day to come in Matt. 23:39 plus Rev. of course.

So, you believe that the meek in the church won't inherit the earth? I don't recall scripture making that distinction. It just says that the meek will inherit the earth. No exceptions are given.

As for these promises you're talking about, which I would assume relate to the promises God made to Abraham and his seed? Paul applied those promises to Jesus Christ Himself and those who belong to Christ (Galatians 3:16-29). It's too bad that you would rather define for yourself who the promises apply to rather than letting scripture determine that for you.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

And when Rev. 19:20 happens the millennial reign will begin. Still doubt? Read the last chapter in every book of OT prophecy!

This is from the last chapter of the book of Isaiah:

Isaiah 66:22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the Lord, so shall your seed and your name remain. 23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the Lord. 24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.

I don't see anything here about a millennial reign. I do see something about the new heavens and new earth, though.

 

[Randy Kluth]

This is complete nonsense. Do you realize that what you're saying here even brings the knowledge level and wisdom of the New Testament authors into question? Do you think they didn't understand what the prophecies were about and we're only just now starting to understand them? God forbid! Of course the New Testament authors understood them and so did those they taught directly as well as many Christians ever since. This idea of things only being revealed more recently is typical of how cults think.

The poster can defend himself, but on its face you don't give him adequate credit. For one, he never said intellectual capacity has evolved in modern times--just that there has been an advance in scientific knowledge which lends better to a futurist interpretation of the book of Revelation.

Let me argue it in reverse. I should think that scientific advances in transportation, including cars, trucks, and tanks, would lend us to "reverse engineer" the prophecies that speak of horses and riders in the latter days? Perhaps what the Prophets referred to were metaphorical horses, ie cars and trucks and military transportation?

Is there any realistic possibility that entire cities would fall in a single hour of history unless there were developed modern atomic weapons? Of course, it may be that "fire falling from heaven" may just be God acting like a Roman god sending lightning bolts to earth? But I think the poster has some points. If the whole world is to be judged, it has to be bigger than an epic battle between Rome and one of their strongest enemies?

I would think, besides this, that the fact of Israel's national restoration should figure into this as well? I agree with the brother that "impatience" has played a large role in causing the Church to "replace" national Israel with its metaphorical counterpart, the International or Catholic Church.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

your wrong.

The church is al people who will ever be saved from adam until the last man or woman saved.

Romans 11 is about Gods promise to Abraham concerning his son Isaac and Jacob and all of their descendents.

Galatians 4:28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.

 

[ewq1938]

I wasn't saying that. You asked how many people in Israel are saved

I did not ask that.

 

[Randy Kluth]

I did not ask that.

okay, I misunderstood the question then...

 

[ewq1938]

okay, I misunderstood the question then...

I asked how many were saved/will be saved from the beginning of Israel to the second coming.

 

[Randy Kluth]

I asked how many were saved/will be saved from the beginning of Israel to the second coming.

Yes, I thought that's what you were asking. I answered by saying perhaps less than one percent. Now can we get off of this merry go round?

 

[covenantee]

Or lets stick to context.

Romans 11: 11 I ask then: Did God reject his people? By no means! I am an Israelite myself, a descendant of Abraham, from the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God did not reject his people, whom he foreknew.Don’t you know what Scripture says in the passage about Elijah—how he appealed to God against Israel: 3 “Lord, they have killed your prophets and torn down your altars; I am the only one left, and they are trying to kill me”[a]?4 And what was God’s answer to him? “I have reserved for myself seven thousand who have not bowed the knee to Baal.”[b] 5 So too, at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace. 6 And if by grace, then it cannot be based on works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace.

Context - Gods people. Who? Israel. Where God said there is even now a remnant. Who is the remnant?

Lets continue

11 Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious. 12 But if their transgression means riches for the world, and their loss means riches for the Gentiles, how much greater riches will their full inclusion bring!

1. They are israel, because of their rejection. Salvation has come to the gentiles (you and I)

Pau seperates them from the saved gentiles

13 I am talking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch as I am the apostle to the Gentiles, I take pride in my ministry 14 in the hope that I may somehow arouse my own people to envy and save some of them. 15 For if their rejection brought reconciliation to the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead? 16 If the part of the dough offered as firstfruits is holy, then the whole batch is holy; if the root is holy, so are the branches.

2. Their (Israel) rejection brought salvation to the world.

9 You will say then, “Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in.” 20 Well said.Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either.

3. They are natural branches. Broken off due to unbelief

25 For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own [f]opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And so all Israel will be [g]saved, as it is written:

4. They are blinded in part (unsaved Israel)

5. They will ALL be saved.. at a particular time

28 Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they arebeloved for the sake of the fathers. 29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.

6. They are enemies of the gospel (because of unbelief)

7, they are beloved because of the sake of the fathers, to whome the promises were given (abraham Isaac and Jacob)

the gifts and calling of God are irrevocable

the context is isreal.. I do not need to go to any other passage. It is there in black and white.

You do with it what you will. I must stick to the word

I don't see the words "gifts" or "calling" in the verses you quoted.

Do you?

Or are the verses with the words "gifts" and "calling" redacted in your bible?

 

[ewq1938]

Yes, I thought that's what you were asking. I answered by saying perhaps less than one percent. Now can we get off of this merry go round?

You made it sound like how many of the current nation.

So when it says all Israel shall be saved, how do you explain that only 1 percent are?

 

[Eternally Grateful]

You laid this out so beautifully, so perfectly, I don't see how anybody can refute this? However, we should never underestimate the power of narrow-minded dogmatism and bigotry.

I really hated to say that, but what else can you call it? The history of the world is littered with the corpses of hated Jews, discriminated against by so-called "Christians." It was nothing but sheer pride that caused Christians to begin elevating the Catholic Church to the loss of any sense of grace towards Israel.

That's precisely what Paul says--not just me!

Rom 11.13 Now I am speaking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle to the Gentiles, I magnify my ministry 14 in order to make my fellow Jews jealous, and thus save some of them. 15 For if their rejection means the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance mean but life from the dead? 16 If the dough offered as first fruits is holy, so is the whole lump; and if the root is holy, so are the branches.
17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, a wild olive shoot, were grafted in their place to share the richness of the olive tree, 18 do not boast over the branches.

they do not understand, If God will not keep an unconditional promise to them. There is no reason to think he would not break his promise to us.

in which case. there is no basis of faith one could ever have.. it would be wishy washy at most. because if we fail..

 

[Eternally Grateful]

I don't see the words "gifts" or "calling" in the verses you quoted.

Do you?

Or are the verses with the words "gifts" and "calling" redacted in your bible?

well thank you for proving you do not read very well. If anything, it most likelyu shows how you read the word.

here I highlighted the words for you.

Or lets stick to context.



28 Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they arebeloved for the sake of the fathers. 29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.

6. They are enemies of the gospel (because of unbelief)

7, they are beloved because of the sake of the fathers, to whome the promises were given (abraham Isaac and Jacob)

the gifts and calling of God are irrevocable

the context is isreal.. I do not need to go to any other passage. It is there in black and white.

You do with it what you will. I must stick to the word

whats even more amazing is you failed to refute my reading of how Israel is the chosen and elect. the them Paul spoke of.. Not the church..

which I take as you just knowing you can not refute it. so you resort to bearing false witness. typical

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Galatians 4:28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.

yep we are

the promise,, in you shall all the nations of the world be blessed.

we who are of the faith of abraham (romans 4) are the children of that promise also.

but we are not talking about THAT promise.

we are talking about the chosen nation and land promise.. We are NOT part of that promise. never have been, never will be (unless you are of the natural children of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and his 12 sons.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

I asked how many were saved/will be saved from the beginning of Israel to the second coming.

how can anyone possibly know that?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Or lets stick to context.

Romans 11: 11 I ask then: Did God reject his people? By no means! I am an Israelite myself, a descendant of Abraham, from the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God did not reject his people, whom he foreknew.Don’t you know what Scripture says in the passage about Elijah—how he appealed to God against Israel: 3 “Lord, they have killed your prophets and torn down your altars; I am the only one left, and they are trying to kill me”[a]?4 And what was God’s answer to him? “I have reserved for myself seven thousand who have not bowed the knee to Baal.”[b] 5 So too, at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace. 6 And if by grace, then it cannot be based on works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace.

Context - Gods people. Who? Israel. Where God said there is even now a remnant. Who is the remnant?

You're not being clear here. Who are you saying are God's people? All of Israel (all Israelites) or just the remnant? It's only the remnant who are chosen so they are God's people. Do you agree? The rest of Israel besides the remnant are not God's people because they rejected Christ. Do you agree?

Lets continue

11 Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious. 12 But if their transgression means riches for the world, and their loss means riches for the Gentiles, how much greater riches will their full inclusion bring!

1. They are israel, because of their rejection. Salvation has come to the gentiles (you and I)

To be clear, it's because of the rejection of the Israelites who were not among the remnant and not the rejection of all Israel. Do you agree?

Pau seperates them from the saved gentiles

13 I am talking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch as I am the apostle to the Gentiles, I take pride in my ministry 14 in the hope that I may somehow arouse my own people to envy and save some of them. 15 For if their rejection brought reconciliation to the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead? 16 If the part of the dough offered as firstfruits is holy, then the whole batch is holy; if the root is holy, so are the branches.

2. Their (Israel) rejection brought salvation to the world.

9 You will say then, “Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in.” 20 Well said.Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either.

3. They are natural branches. Broken off due to unbelief

Again, you're not being completely clear. To be more clear, I would say that Paul did not separate the remnant of Israelite believers from the saved Gentiles, but only the rest of Israel who did not believe. Agree?

25 For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own [f]opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And so all Israel will be [g]saved, as it is written:

4. They are blinded in part (unsaved Israel)

5. They will ALL be saved.. at a particular time

No. You are not taking into account that Paul spoke about two different Israels as can be seen in what he had written a bit earlier in the letter:

Romans 9:6 It is not as though God’s word had failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel. 7 Nor because they are his descendants are they all Abraham’s children. On the contrary, “It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned.” 8 In other words, it is not the children by physical descent who are God’s children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham’s offspring.

Paul differentiated here between an Israel of which not all who are physically descended from the nation of Israel are part. Let's call that spiritual Israel. Of that Israel, Paul said "It is not the children by physical descent who are God's children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham's offspring". Can you see here how one of the Israels Paul referenced is entirely spiritual in nature since being part of it has nothing to do with where someone has physically descended from, but rather has to do with being children of God and children of the promise? Who are the ones who are the children of God and of the promise? Christians, according to Galatians 3:26-29.

So, keeping in mind that there are two Israels, which one is blinded in part? The nation of Israel. The remnant were saved and the rest were blinded. It was part of Paul's mission to lead some of those who were blinded to salvation (Romans 11:11-14) by way of them becoming jealous of the salvation of the Gentiles. Of which Israel are all saved? Not the nation of Israel. Only a remnant are saved from the nation of Israel. It is Spiritual Israel of which all are saved. So, that is the Israel being referenced in Romans 11:26.

In Romans 11:26-27, Paul was not making a new prophecy about the future of the nation of Israel, but rather was talking about the fulfillment of an Old Testament prophecy (from Isaiah 59:20-21) by way of a covenant that takes away the sins of Israel. It should not be hard to understand that it's talking about the new covenant there which was established by the blood of Christ long ago. What other covenant is there by which sins are taken away? There are none. So, Paul was speaking of a current and ongoing reality for Spiritual Israel in Romans 11:26-27 and not about a future reality for the nation of Israel.

28 Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they arebeloved for the sake of the fathers. 29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.

6. They are enemies of the gospel (because of unbelief)

To be clear, only Israelite unbelievers are enemies, not Israelite believers.

7, they are beloved because of the sake of the fathers, to whome the promises were given (abraham Isaac and Jacob)

Again, to be clear, it is only the remnant of believers who are beloved and not Christ rejecting unbelievers. You are failing to differentiate between believing and unbelieving Israelites here and acting as if it instead is always speaking of all of Israel.

the gifts and calling of God are irrevocable

the context is isreal.. I do not need to go to any other passage. It is there in black and white.

You do with it what you will. I must stick to the word

You need to stick to context which I showed in this post. You clearly did not take into account that there are two Israels before making this post.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

yep we are

the promise,, in you shall all the nations of the world be blessed.

we who are of the faith of abraham (romans 4) are the children of that promise also.

but we are not talking about THAT promise.

How convenient that we're somehow not talking about THAT promise.

we are talking about the chosen nation and land promise.. We are NOT part of that promise. never have been, never will be (unless you are of the natural children of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and his 12 sons.

As for the land promise, do you understand that Abraham and other Old Testament saints came to understand that they should be looking for something much better than that? A heavenly country and a city whose builder and maker is God? Have you never read Hebrews 11:8-16?

 

[Randy Kluth]

they do not understand, If God will not keep an unconditional promise to them. There is no reason to think he would not break his promise to us.

in which case. there is no basis of faith one could ever have.. it would be wishy washy at most. because if we fail..

That is exactly how Paul put it--what's good for the goose is good for the gander. If God can't show grace and mercy towards fallen Israel, then how can any of us non-Jews be saved?

To take it a step farther, consider what Paul said, 11.16 If the dough offered as first fruits is holy, so is the whole lump; and if the root is holy, so are the branches.

I don't know how many people here know this, but this relates to the laws of devotion. If someone, in the name of God, legitimately, consigns something to the Lord, it maintains a holy, sacred bearing. If someone consigns wicked rebels to death, out of the inspiration of God's Holy Spirit, then they are not to be delivered--they remain so devoted.

Lev 27.28 But nothing that a person owns and devotes to the Lord—whether a human being or an animal or family land—may be sold or redeemed; everything so devoted is most holy to the Lord. No person devoted to destruction may be ransomed; they are to be put to death.

There is the sense of *contact* where when it concerns sacred things, whether devotion or corruption, there is an associated value. If Israel was so devoted to God by calling and by promise, they remain as such. Just a contact with the ark of the covenant could mean certain death. Just a single infraction of God's sacred laws could spell death for those who should know better.

But by contrast, one could take hold of the horns of the altar and so save his life, indicating that he embraced the blood of redemption in the spirit of proper reference. This was the "good confession," speaking of Christ's blood for salvation. In Deut 19 we read of the Cities of Refuge by which someone who unintentionally kills someone may have his life spared by entering into one of these cities for mercy.

It is sin that defiles, but simple contact with a sacred relic does not ensure one deliverance nor make him holy. Rather, it is the confession of the heart, in response to the call of God, that renders a man or woman devoted to God. And it cannot be undone. Whether a person ends up "saved" or not, his or her devotion is sealed, as I see it.

The reason Jews have been so persecuted and so judged over the last 2000 years is because they cannot undo their calling. This was part of the curses of the Law, which now applies in the NT to the Christian Gospel. If they reject their Messiah, it is as though they rebelled against the Law of Moses, and even worse, against God's own Son!

But God is only letting this continue until grace is shown to the entire pagan world, to give every nation a chance. Then judgment will fall, and the world will change.

 

[Randy Kluth]

You made it sound like how many of the current nation.

So when it says all Israel shall be saved, how do you explain that only 1 percent are?

I guess I haven't given you personally my position on this. And quite frankly, I don't know why others don't see it as I do.

The OT Scriptures constantly affirmed the blessings of obedience and the curses of disobedience under the Law. If the nation, as a whole, was faithful, then God would bless the nation, give it deliverance from its enemies, and prosper them. If not, then their nation would be destroyed or exiled.

So we are talking here of a very specific kind of "salvation," which evangelicals seem unable to grab hold of--*political salvation,* or *military deliverance.* God acts on behalf of a nation to deliver the people from their enemies, thereby ensuring not just their survival but more, their prosperity. Not just a small piece of the nation would be "saved," but the *whole nation,* in all its parts, would be saved from extinction.

Evangelical Salvation follows Political Salvation. We read in Eze 36 that God sometimes delivers the nation from exile 1st, before bringing them into cleanness, or in a sense, saving them in an evangelical sense.

This is what is happening now, I believe. The nation has been brought back from the dead politically, and the state of Israel has been reborn. But since the people have yet to be cleansed and saved in an evangelical sense, they remain under fire, persecuted, and under judgment. The political salvation is in preparation for a future evangelical salvation.

So presently a very small number of Jews in Israel are getting "saved" in the evangelical sense. But Israel is still on the road to national judgment before God finally saves them for all time. Once he does this, at the coming of Christ, many Jews will be brought into evangelical salvation--not all certainly, but many.

So "all" Israel getting saved has to do with the geography encompassing the *whole nation.* It does not have to do with every individual Jew in Israel getting saved in an evangelical sense.

To give the clearest possible example of what I mean, let me take my current country, the U.S. To say that God will save "all" of the U.S. means that God will deliver from Russia or China or from any of its enemies *all 50 states,* and not just perhaps 25 states. "All" refers to the deliverance from extinction or appropriation all 50 states. This is a political "salvation," and merely preparatory for evangelical salvation.

Paul's focus most certainly was on the evangelical salvation of the Jewish People. But he knew the Prophets had promised both Messianic Salvation for the individual but also Messianic Salvation for the nation. Paul left the question of how many *individual Jews* would get saved up to God. He was concerned to see God bring about the national restoration of Israel so that individuals would have this opportunity.

 

[covenantee]

we are talking about the chosen nation and land promise.. We are NOT part of that promise. never have been, never will be (unless you are of the natural children of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and his 12 sons.

Fulfilled long ago.

Joshua 21
43 And the Lord gave unto Israel all the land which he sware to give unto their fathers; and they possessed it, and dwelt therein.
44 And the Lord gave them rest round about, according to all that he sware unto their fathers: and there stood not a man of all their enemies before them; the Lord delivered all their enemies into their hand.
45 There failed not ought of any good thing which the Lord had spoken unto the house of Israel; all came to pass.

God is not a racist.

Stop trying to contort Him into one.