When You See the Abomination of Desolation Stand in the Holy Place

[amigo de christo]

.

Yes indeed . JESUS MATTERS . His every saying is upon the heart of a lamb .

 

[n2thelight]

so odd that Jesus performed all of this.

Noooo Christ is not satan , and He dang sure didn't cause the desolation .

Speak to me, what did Christ perform ?

 

[Brakelite]

Personally, I look for Scriptures to tell me what are symbols, and what those symbols mean. Even idioms, I find, are defined in the Bible itself.

Revelation 12:3 KJV
And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.

Revelation 12:9 KJV
And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

In this instance, we're told that this is a symbol, and we are told what that symbol means. So I have solid Scriptural authority to say, this red dragon is Satan.

Much love!

I agree. As I said else where, it was it here, can't remember, scripture interprets itself.
So before anytime starts giving prophetic time periods a symbolic understanding, one would first have
A. Precedent
B. Examples
C. Accurate results using that method.
As I said to CL above, I'm in my car at present waiting for peak traffic to die down a bit across Melbourne ( a nightmare at any other time... Worse at isn't) before leaving for home. Will address this later. God willing. Good topic btw.

 

[Waiting on him]

Noooo Christ is not satan , and He dang sure didn't cause the desolation .

Speak to me, what did Christ perform ?

Matthew 23:37-38 KJV
[37] O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! [38] Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.
He Christ by making the one and only sacrifice worthy, caused there sacrifice to cease, there by changing the laws and the times and the seasons.
In reguards to the oblation, there is no other offering God will accept, this also includes tithes.

 

[Waiting on him]

Will you partake of that last offered cup
Or disappear into the potter's ground?

 

[Brakelite]

I agree. As I said else where, it was it here, can't remember, scripture interprets itself.
So before anytime starts giving prophetic time periods a symbolic understanding, one would first have
A. Precedent
B. Examples
C. Accurate results using that method.
As I said to CL above, I'm in my car at present waiting for peak traffic to die down a bit across Melbourne ( a nightmare at any other time... Worse at isn't) before leaving for home. Will address this later. God willing. Good topic btw.

@marks
Okay.
The acid test of the year/day principle is whether the events forecasted were fulfilled on schedule. In other words, the pragmatic test of historical fulfillment must be applied to the historicist interpretation of these prophecies. Does the historicist method pass the test? Notice the following incontrovertible facts:
The Papacy did indeed rule for 1260 years and the true church had to flee during that period. The dates can be corroborated by history (538-1798 A. D.).
- The Church during the period of Smyrna did experience ten years of severe persecution under Diocletian (303-313 A. D.). In fact, it was this period of persecution which led to Constantine’s famous Edict of Milan in 313 A. D.
- A decree to build and restore Jerusalem was given in the year 457 B. C. Jesus was anointed in the year 27 A. D. Jesus did die in the spring of the year AD 31 Stephen was stoned in the fall of the year 34 A. D.
- The Millerites did indeed preach from Daniel 8:14 that the Sanctuary was about to be cleansed, and this preaching took place right before the 2300 years came to an end. Why didn’t they preach from some other text? Simply because God wanted to bring to the world’s attention that the 2300 years were about to end and a significant event was about to take place in heaven! The great Second Advent Awakening in the 1830's provides powerful evidence that the year/day principle must be applied to Daniel 8:14.
- Churches were closed and Bibles were forbidden in France during the French Revolution for about three and one half years (March of 1793 A. D. to November of 1797 A. D.).
Thus, historical fulfillment vindicates the historicist method of interpreting the prophetic time periods.

I think it is critical that modern day Bible scholars understand the following...
George Eldon Ladd:
“It would probably come as a shock to many modern futurists to be told that the first scholar in relatively modern times who returned to the patristic futuristic interpretation was a Spanish Jesuit named Ribera. In 1590 Ribera published a commentary on the Revelation as a counter-interpretation to the prevailing view among Protestants which identified the Papacy with the Antichrist. Ribera applied all of Revelation but the earliest chapters to the end time rather than to the history of the Church. Antichrist would be a single evil person who would be received by the Jews and would rebuild Jerusalem, abolish Christianity, deny Christ, persecute the Church and rule the world for three and a half years.” (George Eldon Ladd, The Blessed Hope, Grand Rapids: Eerdman’s, 1972, p. 37).
Next we will quote Joseph Tanner: “ So great a hold did the conviction that the Papacy was the Antichrist gain upon the minds of men, that Rome at last saw she must bestir herself, and try, by putting forth other systems of interpretation, to counteract the identification of the Papacy with the Antichrist. Accordingly, towards the close of the century of the Reformation two of her most learned doctors set themselves to the task, each endeavoring by different means to accomplish the same end, namely, that of diverting men’s minds from perceiving the fulfillment of the prophecies of the Antichrist in the Papal system.
The Jesuit Alcasar devoted himself to bring into prominence the Preterist method of interpretation, which we have already briefly noticed, and thus endeavored to show that the prophecies of Antichrist were fulfilled before the Popes ever ruled at Rome, and therefore could not apply to the Papacy. On the other hand the Jesuit Ribera tried to set aside the application of these prophecies to the Papal Power by bringing out the Futurist system, which asserts that these prophecies refer properly not to the career of the Papacy, but to that of some future supernatural
individual, who is yet to appear, and to continue in power for three and a half years.” (Joseph Tanner, Daniel and the Revelation, [London: Hodder and Stoughton, 1898], pp. 16, 17).
Dean Henry Alford in the “Prolegomena” of his Greek Testament, declares: “The founder of this system [Futurist] in modern times. . . appears to have been the Jesuit Ribera, about A. D. 1580.” (Henry Alford, The New Testament for English Readers, vol. 2, part 2, p. 351).
Alford also states: “The Preterist view found no favour, and was hardly so much as thought of, in the times of primitive Christianity. . . The view is said to have been first promulgated in any thing like completeness by the Jesuit Alcasar. . . in 1614.” (Henry Alford, The New Testament for English Readers, vol. 2, part 2, pp. 348, 349).
Even the Roman Catholic, G. S. Hitchcock, states: “The Futuristic School, founded by the Jesuit Ribera in 1591, looks for Antichrist, Babylon and a rebuilt temple in Jerusalem, at the end of the Christian Dispensation. . . The Praeterist School, founded by the Jesuit Alcasar in 1614, explains the Revelation by the Fall of Jerusalem, or by the fall of Pagan Rome in 410 A. D.” (G. S. Hitchcock, The Beasts and the Little Horn, p. 7).
Well has Tanner remarked: “It is a matter for deep regret that those who hold and advocate the futurist system at the present day, Protestants as they are for the most part, are thus really playing into the hands of Rome, and helping to screen the Papacy from detection as the Antichrist.
It has been well said that ‘Futurism tends to obliterate the brand put by the Holy Spirit upon Popery.’ More especially is this to be deplored at a time when the Papal Antichrist seems to be making an expiring effort to
regain his former hold on men’s minds.” (Joseph Tanner, Daniel and the Revelation, [London: Hodder and Stoughton, 1898], p. 17).

You see, the Protestant reformers knew for certain that in the prophetic flow, the lion (Babylon), the bear (Medo-Persia), the leopard (Greece), and the dragon (Rome) had already ruled the world. They also knew that Rome had been divided into ten kingdoms when the Barbarians carved up the Empire. They also knew that the predicted Antichrist was to arise among these ten kingdoms of Western Europe. They saw clearly and distinctly that they were living in the time of the little horn.
The historicist hermeneutical method made it quite simple. A correct understanding of Bible prophecy gave them the unmistakable mandate to unmask this system which had usurped the prerogatives of Christ and adulterated the truth of God!!

There is much evidence in written form of the almost unanimous view of the reformers that the RCC was indeed the antichrist. For the sake of space I will not quote them here, but can provide quotes if desired.

Bear in mind that those who pointed the finger at the Papacy as the great Antichrist were highly educated individuals. They could not be accused of being ignorant and unlearned. Many reached their own conclusions independently of others. Their expositions were saturated with quotations from Daniel 7 (the little horn), Revelation 13 (the beast), Revelation 17 (the harlot), II Thessalonians 2 (the Man of Sin), and Matthew 24 (the abomination of desolation). And their testimony was unanimous and covered the entire Continent of Europe!! And it turned Christianity and Europe upside down.

The Papacy knew it could triumph only by turning away the incriminating finger of Bible prophecy. But, how could it do this when the evidence was so clear and overwhelming? The Papacy saw that in order to be successful, it must change the method Protestants had used to interpret prophecy. Only by obliterating the method of historicism could the Papacy deflect the accusing finger!! And the Papacy laid out a carefully devised plan to do just
this!!
In 1545 the Roman Catholic Church called a church council which was held at Trent. The avowed purpose of the Council of Trent was to arrest the growing Protestant Reformation. The council lasted until 1563 (the longest church council in the history of the Roman Catholic Church). No major decisions were reached with respect to Bible prophecy but the Papacy did reaffirm categorically the dogmas of the Church and pronounced an anathema upon anyone who taught otherwise.
Just eleven years before the Council of Trent, St. Ignatius of Loyola founded the Jesuit Order (in 1534). Besides providing the Papacy with a formidable secret police force, the Jesuits also trained an elite of theological scholars whose avowed purpose was to overthrow Protestantism. In fact, in St. Peter’s Basilica in Rome, there is a statue of Loyola trampling Protestants underfoot!!
Loyola’s Jesuit Order would eventually spawn two able scholars whose views would not only arrest the growth of Protestantism but actually conquer it!! And the rest as they say, is history. And Protestantism has swallowed it hook, line, sinker, and boat.

 

[Waiting on him]

@marks
Okay.
The acid test of the year/day principle is whether the events forecasted were fulfilled on schedule. In other words, the pragmatic test of historical fulfillment must be applied to the historicist interpretation of these prophecies. Does the historicist method pass the test? Notice the following incontrovertible facts:
The Papacy did indeed rule for 1260 years and the true church had to flee during that period. The dates can be corroborated by history (538-1798 A. D.).
- The Church during the period of Smyrna did experience ten years of severe persecution under Diocletian (303-313 A. D.). In fact, it was this period of persecution which led to Constantine’s famous Edict of Milan in 313 A. D.
- A decree to build and restore Jerusalem was given in the year 457 B. C. Jesus was anointed in the year 27 A. D. Jesus did die in the spring of the year AD 31 Stephen was stoned in the fall of the year 34 A. D.
- The Millerites did indeed preach from Daniel 8:14 that the Sanctuary was about to be cleansed, and this preaching took place right before the 2300 years came to an end. Why didn’t they preach from some other text? Simply because God wanted to bring to the world’s attention that the 2300 years were about to end and a significant event was about to take place in heaven! The great Second Advent Awakening in the 1830's provides powerful evidence that the year/day principle must be applied to Daniel 8:14.
- Churches were closed and Bibles were forbidden in France during the French Revolution for about three and one half years (March of 1793 A. D. to November of 1797 A. D.).
Thus, historical fulfillment vindicates the historicist method of interpreting the prophetic time periods.

I think it is critical that modern day Bible scholars understand the following...
George Eldon Ladd:
“It would probably come as a shock to many modern futurists to be told that the first scholar in relatively modern times who returned to the patristic futuristic interpretation was a Spanish Jesuit named Ribera. In 1590 Ribera published a commentary on the Revelation as a counter-interpretation to the prevailing view among Protestants which identified the Papacy with the Antichrist. Ribera applied all of Revelation but the earliest chapters to the end time rather than to the history of the Church. Antichrist would be a single evil person who would be received by the Jews and would rebuild Jerusalem, abolish Christianity, deny Christ, persecute the Church and rule the world for three and a half years.” (George Eldon Ladd, The Blessed Hope, Grand Rapids: Eerdman’s, 1972, p. 37).
Next we will quote Joseph Tanner: “ So great a hold did the conviction that the Papacy was the Antichrist gain upon the minds of men, that Rome at last saw she must bestir herself, and try, by putting forth other systems of interpretation, to counteract the identification of the Papacy with the Antichrist. Accordingly, towards the close of the century of the Reformation two of her most learned doctors set themselves to the task, each endeavoring by different means to accomplish the same end, namely, that of diverting men’s minds from perceiving the fulfillment of the prophecies of the Antichrist in the Papal system.
The Jesuit Alcasar devoted himself to bring into prominence the Preterist method of interpretation, which we have already briefly noticed, and thus endeavored to show that the prophecies of Antichrist were fulfilled before the Popes ever ruled at Rome, and therefore could not apply to the Papacy. On the other hand the Jesuit Ribera tried to set aside the application of these prophecies to the Papal Power by bringing out the Futurist system, which asserts that these prophecies refer properly not to the career of the Papacy, but to that of some future supernatural
individual, who is yet to appear, and to continue in power for three and a half years.” (Joseph Tanner, Daniel and the Revelation, [London: Hodder and Stoughton, 1898], pp. 16, 17).
Dean Henry Alford in the “Prolegomena” of his Greek Testament, declares: “The founder of this system [Futurist] in modern times. . . appears to have been the Jesuit Ribera, about A. D. 1580.” (Henry Alford, The New Testament for English Readers, vol. 2, part 2, p. 351).
Alford also states: “The Preterist view found no favour, and was hardly so much as thought of, in the times of primitive Christianity. . . The view is said to have been first promulgated in any thing like completeness by the Jesuit Alcasar. . . in 1614.” (Henry Alford, The New Testament for English Readers, vol. 2, part 2, pp. 348, 349).
Even the Roman Catholic, G. S. Hitchcock, states: “The Futuristic School, founded by the Jesuit Ribera in 1591, looks for Antichrist, Babylon and a rebuilt temple in Jerusalem, at the end of the Christian Dispensation. . . The Praeterist School, founded by the Jesuit Alcasar in 1614, explains the Revelation by the Fall of Jerusalem, or by the fall of Pagan Rome in 410 A. D.” (G. S. Hitchcock, The Beasts and the Little Horn, p. 7).
Well has Tanner remarked: “It is a matter for deep regret that those who hold and advocate the futurist system at the present day, Protestants as they are for the most part, are thus really playing into the hands of Rome, and helping to screen the Papacy from detection as the Antichrist.
It has been well said that ‘Futurism tends to obliterate the brand put by the Holy Spirit upon Popery.’ More especially is this to be deplored at a time when the Papal Antichrist seems to be making an expiring effort to
regain his former hold on men’s minds.” (Joseph Tanner, Daniel and the Revelation, [London: Hodder and Stoughton, 1898], p. 17).

You see, the Protestant reformers knew for certain that in the prophetic flow, the lion (Babylon), the bear (Medo-Persia), the leopard (Greece), and the dragon (Rome) had already ruled the world. They also knew that Rome had been divided into ten kingdoms when the Barbarians carved up the Empire. They also knew that the predicted Antichrist was to arise among these ten kingdoms of Western Europe. They saw clearly and distinctly that they were living in the time of the little horn.
The historicist hermeneutical method made it quite simple. A correct understanding of Bible prophecy gave them the unmistakable mandate to unmask this system which had usurped the prerogatives of Christ and adulterated the truth of God!!

There is much evidence in written form of the almost unanimous view of the reformers that the RCC was indeed the antichrist. For the sake of space I will not quote them here, but can provide quotes if desired.

Bear in mind that those who pointed the finger at the Papacy as the great Antichrist were highly educated individuals. They could not be accused of being ignorant and unlearned. Many reached their own conclusions independently of others. Their expositions were saturated with quotations from Daniel 7 (the little horn), Revelation 13 (the beast), Revelation 17 (the harlot), II Thessalonians 2 (the Man of Sin), and Matthew 24 (the abomination of desolation). And their testimony was unanimous and covered the entire Continent of Europe!! And it turned Christianity and Europe upside down.

The Papacy knew it could triumph only by turning away the incriminating finger of Bible prophecy. But, how could it do this when the evidence was so clear and overwhelming? The Papacy saw that in order to be successful, it must change the method Protestants had used to interpret prophecy. Only by obliterating the method of historicism could the Papacy deflect the accusing finger!! And the Papacy laid out a carefully devised plan to do just
this!!
In 1545 the Roman Catholic Church called a church council which was held at Trent. The avowed purpose of the Council of Trent was to arrest the growing Protestant Reformation. The council lasted until 1563 (the longest church council in the history of the Roman Catholic Church). No major decisions were reached with respect to Bible prophecy but the Papacy did reaffirm categorically the dogmas of the Church and pronounced an anathema upon anyone who taught otherwise.
Just eleven years before the Council of Trent, St. Ignatius of Loyola founded the Jesuit Order (in 1534). Besides providing the Papacy with a formidable secret police force, the Jesuits also trained an elite of theological scholars whose avowed purpose was to overthrow Protestantism. In fact, in St. Peter’s Basilica in Rome, there is a statue of Loyola trampling Protestants underfoot!!
Loyola’s Jesuit Order would eventually spawn two able scholars whose views would not only arrest the growth of Protestantism but actually conquer it!! And the rest as they say, is history. And Protestantism has swallowed it hook, line, sinker, and boat.

Why doesn’t anyone ever acknowledge the kings of Israel?

 

[Truth7t7]

Yes, which was Titus, but this was still God's doing in that He allowed it by lifting His sovereign protection from the nation, the abomination of desolation being the armies that surrounded Jerusalem planting their idolatrous standards in holy ground.

No "Titus" didnt fulfill the figure in Daniel 9:27 below

The figure is "Future" and will be on earth causing desolation until "The Consummation" or the ultimate end of the world

"Preterism" in 1st century fulfillment is Alice in wonderland, aesop's fables

Merriam-Webster
Definition of consummation

1: the act of consummating the consummation of a contract by mutual signature specifically : the consummating of a marriage
2: the ultimate end : FINISH

Daniel 9:27KJV
27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

 

[Waiting on him]

No "Titus" didnt fulfill the figure in Daniel 9:27 below

The figure is "Future" and will be on earth causing desolation until "The Consummation" or the ultimate end of the world

"Preterism" in 1st century fulfillment is Alice in wonderland, aesop's fables

Merriam-Webster
Definition of consummation

1: the act of consummating the consummation of a contract by mutual signature specifically : the consummating of a marriage
2: the ultimate end : FINISH

Daniel 9:27KJV
27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Futurism to me is not giving Christ the Glory He is due.

 

[marks]

It is also significant that non-apocalyptic prophecies express time in literal language:

Do you see "Hebrew Apocalyptic" genre being the genre of writing of the Revelation?

For myself, I do not. I understand Hebrew Apocalyptic to be a non-spiritual form of writing from the minds and imaginations of men, while the Revelation of Jesus Christ is exactly that, a revelation from God that has nothing whatsoever to do with the fictional religious-styled writings of the day.

Much love!

 

[marks]

good point. That is love yea? Paul also spoke of willing to be weak that they be made strong. But (only an opinion) does that necessarily translate into that Paul’s willingness to remain in the flesh on account of them mean Christ left Paul …how else could that great a love be made manifest unless it was the Work of the Spirit of God within Paul? Sounds like someone else who laid down his in weakness that others may live; raised up again by the power of God in Him. 2 Corinthians 4:11-12 For we which live are alway delivered unto death for Jesus' sake, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our mortal flesh. [12] So then death worketh in us, but life in you.

2 Corinthians 12:9 And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me. (Not evidence that the Spirit has left but the contrary “Philippians 1:24 Nevertheless to abide in the flesh is more needful for you.”

Christ left Paul? I should say not. He promised to never leave. So He never does.

And yet Paul recognized that going to be with Him was something yet different, and better, than how we are with Him now.

Are you sure this is a serious discussion? That you are thinking we are with Jesus now as much as we will ever be?

I think that we are bound by are senses in this body, this flesh, in this world. I think that when we die in this world, when we close our eyes here, in this terrestrial realm, we open them there, in the celestial realm, and we see, not this world, the wreckage of what God made, but we will see Jesus.

I think that in the kingdom to come we will walk this earth in our bodies, uncorrupted, and our God will live here on this earth than us.

Paul said it is more expedient to remain here with you, and better to go and be with Christ. Yes, it is better I think!

And in the new heaven and the new earth, I think it will be even better still.

Much love!

 

[VictoryinJesus]

Christ left Paul? I should say not. He promised to never leave. So He never does.

Then I’m confused by what you meant by “Maybe there is a way we aren't with Him now, that we will be then. Can you think of some way we aren't with Him now, that we are thinking we will be later?”

 

[VictoryinJesus]

I think that in the kingdom to come we will walk this earth in our bodies, uncorrupted, and our God will live here on this earth than us.

2 Corinthians 6:16-18 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them ; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. [17] Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing ; and I will receive you, [18] And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.

Paul said it is more expedient to remain here with you, and better to go and be with Christ. Yes, it is better I think!

1 Corinthians 10:23-24 All things are lawful for me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but all things edify not. [24] Let no man seek his own, but every man another's wealth.

1 Corinthians 10:22 Do we provoke the Lord to jealousy? are we stronger than he?

1 John 4:4-5 Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world. [5] They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

Matthew 23:37-38 KJV
[37] O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! [38] Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.
He Christ by making the one and only sacrifice worthy, caused there sacrifice to cease, there by changing the laws and the times and the seasons.
In reguards to the oblation, there is no other offering God will accept, this also includes tithes.

Daniel 2:20-22 KDaniel answered and said, Blessed be the name of God for ever and ever: for wisdom and might are his: [21] And he changeth the times and the seasons: he removeth kings, and setteth up kings: he giveth wisdom unto the wise, and knowledge to them that know understanding: [22] He revealeth the deep and secret things: he knoweth what is in the darkness, and the light dwelleth with him.

 

[marks]

I agree. As I said else where, it was it here, can't remember, scripture interprets itself.
So before anytime starts giving prophetic time periods a symbolic understanding, one would first have
A. Precedent
B. Examples
C. Accurate results using that method.
As I said to CL above, I'm in my car at present waiting for peak traffic to die down a bit across Melbourne ( a nightmare at any other time... Worse at isn't) before leaving for home. Will address this later. God willing. Good topic btw.

Been there, done that, the traffic thing that is. I used to work 13 miles away, but it took 1 - 1.5 hours in traffic. Now I work 6 miles away, 10 minutes by street. Thank you Jesus!!

My default position is that the times are literal, unless something is telling me something different.

One example I like to look at that on it's face refutes my view is Hosea,

Hosea 5:13-6:3 KJV
13) When Ephraim saw his sickness, and Judah saw his wound, then went Ephraim to the Assyrian, and sent to king Jareb: yet could he not heal you, nor cure you of your wound.
14) For I will be unto Ephraim as a lion, and as a young lion to the house of Judah: I, even I, will tear and go away; I will take away, and none shall rescue him.
15) I will go and return to my place, till they acknowledge their offence, and seek my face: in their affliction they will seek me early.
1) Come, and let us return unto the LORD: for he hath torn, and he will heal us; he hath smitten, and he will bind us up.
2) After two days will he revive us: in the third day he will raise us up, and we shall live in his sight.
3) Then shall we know, if we follow on to know the LORD: his going forth is prepared as the morning; and he shall come unto us as the rain, as the latter and former rain unto the earth.

After two day will he revive us, in the third day he will raise us up, and we shall live in his sight.

Many see in this passage a prophecy of 2000 years that the Jews would be smitten, and in the 3rd millennium they will live with Him in Israel.

I wouldn't question that, it seems to to me. Verse 15 seems to mirror, "until they say blessed is He Who comes in the Name of the LORD". We're 2000 years later and it looks like near the end of the age.

I wouldn't say this for certain, but it does look that way.

This prophecy seems to me a different manner, not a vision of things to come, mysteries and beasts and times and places, more like an exchange between persons, almost as a lover receiving endearments.

Your thoughts?

Much love!

 

[marks]

Bear in mind that those who pointed the finger at the Papacy as the great Antichrist were highly educated individuals. They could not be accused of being ignorant and unlearned.

Have you had occassion to read Sir Isaac Newton's Notes on Daniel and the Revelation? I should not be the one to accuse Sir Isaac Newton as unlearned and ignorant.

But I didn't find him convincing on these things. His thinking, well, he stopped short of naming dates, but it was easy enough to reconstruct his reasoning from the book that things here will be wrapped up around 2032.

Let me ask you this . . . how does this age end?

@marks
Okay.
The acid test of the year/day principle is whether the events forecasted were fulfilled on schedule. In other words, the pragmatic test of historical fulfillment must be applied to the historicist interpretation of these prophecies. Does the historicist method pass the test? Notice the following incontrovertible facts:

I'd sooner say, is it supported in the Bible.

But if a day equals a year, how long was Jesus in the heart of the heart? How long before His resurrection? 3 days, not 3 years. Or 3000 years.

I don't know the dates of these rulers and such as you name, but something I CAN know are the elements of the prophecies, and if they were fulfilled.

This is where I came up dry with Sir Newton. He was very detailed in his writings. He assigned meanings to what he declared symbols, but, with no disrepect intended, it seemed more like a prophecy in search of a fulfillment.

The acid test of the year/day principle is whether the events forecasted were fulfilled on schedule. In other words, the pragmatic test of historical fulfillment must be applied to the historicist interpretation of these prophecies. Does the historicist method pass the test? Notice the following incontrovertible facts:
The Papacy did indeed rule for 1260 years and the true church had to flee during that period. The dates can be corroborated by history (538-1798 A. D.).

So maybe take this for example. Which prophecy or prophecies do you believe to be fulfilled by this rule? What defined the papal rule in such manner as to fulfill those prophecies?

Much love!

 

[Waiting on him]

Daniel 2:20-22 KDaniel answered and said, Blessed be the name of God for ever and ever: for wisdom and might are his: [21] And he changeth the times and the seasons: he removeth kings, and setteth up kings: he giveth wisdom unto the wise, and knowledge to them that know understanding: [22] He revealeth the deep and secret things: he knoweth what is in the darkness, and the light dwelleth with him.

Good catch! Never saw that.

 

[marks]

There is much evidence in written form of the almost unanimous view of the reformers that the RCC was indeed the antichrist. For the sake of space I will not quote them here, but can provide quotes if desired.

It's not necessary, I'm familiar with these things. Many now continue to think this.

Much love!

 

[Waiting on him]

Good catch! Never saw that.

Daniel 2:20-22 KDaniel answered and said, Blessed be the name of God for ever and ever: for wisdom and might are his: [21] And he changeth the times and the seasons: he removeth kings, and setteth up kings: he giveth wisdom unto the wise, and knowledge to them that know understanding: [22] He revealeth the deep and secret things: he knoweth what is in the darkness, and the light dwelleth with him.

And there was a vesture dipped in blood that read King of Kings.

 

[marks]

- The Millerites did indeed preach from Daniel 8:14 that the Sanctuary was about to be cleansed, and this preaching took place right before the 2300 years came to an end. Why didn’t they preach from some other text? Simply because God wanted to bring to the world’s attention that the 2300 years were about to end and a significant event was about to take place in heaven! The great Second Advent Awakening in the 1830's provides powerful evidence that the year/day principle must be applied to Daniel 8:14.

Let me double check this one with you . . . are you saying that someone's declaration of a prophecy about to be fulfilled, unseen, was the fulfillment of that prophecy?

And that the Great Awakening shows that the prophecy had been fulfilled in heaven? Am I understanding rightly?

Much love!