Why I believe in the rapture.

[Naomi25]

Non literal apocalyptic genre? Don't you mean; rejection of plainly worded scripture, made to suit a theory that denies about a quarter of the Bible?
AMill is a belief that simply leaves people in the dark. 1 Thess 5:5

No. I mean you building a lovely little straw man in order to make your own tearing of it down look impressive.
I’m sorry if you don’t think apocalyptic genres are legit, or that numbers can be used symbolically, but I’m afraid that just highlights how ill-prepared you are to make comments on it.
I’m most pleased to enter into a conversation with you over the whole thing, but if you cannot even recognise or admit that the genre is not only legitimate, but a good promotion of scholars hold to it, then I’m simply not wasting my time. But I highly recommend you read up on it. As I said, most scholars recognise apocalyptic genres, and their importance in biblical literature. It would benefit you to find out what others believe regarding it, even if you reject it for yourself.

 

[David H.]

Indeed, let us consider them:

Matthew 24:36-42
No One Knows That Day and Hour
“But concerning that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father only. For as were the days of Noah, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. For as in those days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day when Noah entered the ark, and they were unaware until the flood came and swept them all away, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. Then two men will be in the field; one will be taken and one left. Two women will be grinding at the mill; one will be taken and one left. Therefore, stay awake, for you do not know on what day your Lord is coming.

The whole point of this parable and passage is that we “don’t know the day or hour” our Lord is coming.
It’s not to tell us that we’ll be wished away in a Rapture.
Let’s look: ‘concerning the day or hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father only’. This is clearly what leads us into the passage and tells us what is framing it: not what, not how…not even when. Just that we CANNOT know. And that thus, we must be ready. We are then given examples of readiness.
“For as in the days of Noah”. Okay, so we have a reference to Noah here. Does it tell us that as Noah was taken out of harms way, so we too can expect it? No. That as Noah trusted in God he was removed from harm, so we too can expect it? No. IT’s got NOTHING to do with Noah’s being placed into the Ark and being spared. The whole THEME of this passage is readiness and unexpectedness. And THUS is was in Noah’s day. The people who drowned had no notion that judgement was coming upon them. If they did, don’t you think they too would have been building boats? Or begging Noah to take them with him? No…they were…as this very passage tells us…eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage. And then it was too late. Judgement and death was upon them.
To make the message even surer…Jesus goes on and gives more examples of how swift this judgement will be….two in the field…one taken, one left. That’s blink of an eye territory. And we know that the Rapture, when it happens, will be.
But again, the POINT of the parable here is NOT that Noah was “pseudo-raptured” and thus we may expect to be before our modern day flood of wrath. No…the parable is that we must always be ready. To read anything else into the parable is eisegesis.

Now Luke:

Luke 17:27-33
They were eating and drinking and marrying and being given in marriage, until the day when Noah entered the ark, and the flood came and destroyed them all. Likewise, just as it was in the days of Lot—they were eating and drinking, buying and selling, planting and building, but on the day when Lot went out from Sodom, fire and sulfur rained from heaven and destroyed them all—so will it be on the day when the Son of Man is revealed. On that day, let the one who is on the housetop, with his goods in the house, not come down to take them away, and likewise let the one who is in the field not turn back. Remember Lot’s wife. Whoever seeks to preserve his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life will keep it.


Again, this parable warns of impending and swift judgement and the need to always be ready and watching. We have the same reference to Noah as we did in the Matt 24 passage, letting us know how similar these passages will be. Luke gives us more information on Lot.
“They were eating and drinking, buying and selling, planting and building”. These are every day living activities, ones people do without thinking. Things they do to just live…routine. We…all of us, fall into these routines far too easily, without giving thought or purpose to what we should….Jesus. And the day he might crack open the sky. How did things turn out for Lot, as he was going about his daily life in a wicked world?
It all went rather badly rather quickly for him, didn’t it?
“Let the one who is on the housetop, with his goods in the house, not come down to take them away, and likewise let the one who is in the field not turn back. Remember Lot’s wife.”
Remember Lot’s wife. People who cling too hard to this world, who turn back because of the pleasures of this world, will loose their lives when sudden destruction comes upon them.
The lesson of this parable is NOT that as Christians we “get” a nice Rapture before 7 years of tribulation. It’s that as Christians we need to hold loosely to this world and keep our eyes on Jesus. Especially since we ‘don’t know what day or hour’. The two parables fit hand in glove. A person not knowing when Jesus is going to return should be encouraged, even more, to keep their eyes on Christ.
If both parables are “relax folks, the Rapture’s coming before things get hairy”….well, quite frankly….I simply don’t know how you’d get that read from those parables.

Yet Both Noah and Lot knew the day and the hour of the wrath of God and were prepared for it. They knew there would be a way of escape. For the record, I am not pre trib, I am prewrath in my eschatology. The dead in Christ will rise at His coming and Christ Jesus only comes once and we who are alive and remain will be transformed and meet him in the clouds. From that point on we will be with Him forever more in his presence, whether that be in heaven or on earth in the millennial reign.

I Have the testimony of all of scripture to prove this from the prophets of the old testament to the Words of Christ to the prophesies of the Apostles, I Do not need a systematic theology to see this but the teaching of the One who inspired those words who gives us confirmation of the veracity of the Testimony of Scripture. You see my interpretation as eisegesis, for me it is "I see Jesus"..... these are the Promises he made to us, and by faith i Believe in this blessed Hope of His coming to redeem us from this mortal flesh and put on immortality. This is a specific even that occurs at a Specific time and those who are taught by the Spirit know when this is and are ever ready for His coming. Exegesis cannot give you this assurance like the Holy Ghost can. Exegesis relies on the philosophy and wisdom of man and not the Wisdom of God. Although you likely will be unable to receive this admonition I encourage you to stop searching with your carnal mind and rather start by knowing nothing save Christ and Him crucified and let the Holy Ghost teach you, He will lead you into all truth, for " prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost." (2 Peter 1:21) When You do then you too will not be practicing eisegesis or exegesis But rather "I see Jesus".

 

[Naomi25]

Yet Both Noah and Lot knew the day and the hour of the wrath of God and were prepared for it. They knew there would be a way of escape. For the record, I am not pre trib, I am prewrath in my eschatology. The dead in Christ will rise at His coming and Christ Jesus only comes once and we who are alive and remain will be transformed and meet him in the clouds. From that point on we will be with Him forever more in his presence, whether that be in heaven or on earth in the millennial reign.

Thanks for the heads up on where you land. I’ll try and keep it in mind!

Okay. Let’s try and noodle this through. In the OT accounts, Noah and Lot “knew”. Noah had enough ‘lead’ time to build an ark, so, sure. Lot…less time. He knew things were going poorly when he decided it might be better to offer his daughters to the mob rather than the ‘strangers’. It was only then he was told he must flee for his life. So…I would suggest he didn’t have a lot of time, he more or less had to flee with the clothes on his back.

However, when we get to the NT references, which is the point of this whole conversation, the two passages you referred me to, says nothing about these two men “being prepared”. Do they? In fact…apart from giving reference to the ‘Days of Noah’ and ‘Lot’, the only thing that seems to be mentioned, is how unprepared everyone was.
Now…it’s fine to suppose that the two men in question were prepared. That they were different. The problem for you is….they are not the POINT of the parables given. I extend the opportunity for you to show me differently. Show me how the parables given were meant to show how prepared those two men were, and how we should look at them and see a means of escape, just as they did.
It’s not there, is it?

I Have the testimony of all of scripture to prove this from the prophets of the old testament to the Words of Christ to the prophesies of the Apostles, I Do not need a systematic theology to see this but the teaching of the One who inspired those words who gives us confirmation of the veracity of the Testimony of Scripture. You see my interpretation as eisegesis, for me it is "I see Jesus"..... these are the Promises he made to us, and by faith i Believe in this blessed Hope of His coming to redeem us from this mortal flesh and put on immortality. This is a specific even that occurs at a Specific time and those who are taught by the Spirit know when this is and are ever ready for His coming. Exegesis cannot give you this assurance like the Holy Ghost can. Exegesis relies on the philosophy and wisdom of man and not the Wisdom of God. Although you likely will be unable to receive this admonition I encourage you to stop searching with your carnal mind and rather start by knowing nothing save Christ and Him crucified and let the Holy Ghost teach you, He will lead you into all truth, for " prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost." (2 Peter 1:21) When You do then you too will not be practicing eisegesis or exegesis But rather "I see Jesus".

Sir, I mean this with the utmost respect, as I have the whole conversation, but…the text says what it says. Anyone can claim the Spirit’s leading…and people frequently do. Sometimes people with the best intentions truly think they have the correct interpretation based upon what God has shown them. But as we look down through Church history we see some towering figures…both of intellect and spiritual maturity….who disagree with each other on certain issues. Sometimes important issues. That tells us that one simply cannot rely on “The Spirit will show me!”
No…we must rely on several things….the revelation of the Spirit, the careful study of his word, sitting under sound teaching of people you know to be wise and learned…and the humility to know you might be wrong and be willing to learn what God is teaching you.
And frankly….the text is not saying what you hope it is. At least, you have not given a convincing reason or argument to suggest it might be. And without that weighty evidence or reason, I cannot…must not…be swayed simply by the say-so of a man claiming wisdom of above, when I can read what is before me.
I trust you understand.

 

[David H.]

Sir, I mean this with the utmost respect, as I have the whole conversation, but…the text says what it says. Anyone can claim the Spirit’s leading…and people frequently do. Sometimes people with the best intentions truly think they have the correct interpretation based upon what God has shown them. But as we look down through Church history we see some towering figures…both of intellect and spiritual maturity….who disagree with each other on certain issues. Sometimes important issues. That tells us that one simply cannot rely on “The Spirit will show me!”
No…we must rely on several things….the revelation of the Spirit, the careful study of his word, sitting under sound teaching of people you know to be wise and learned…and the humility to know you might be wrong and be willing to learn what God is teaching you.
And frankly….the text is not saying what you hope it is. At least, you have not given a convincing reason or argument to suggest it might be. And without that weighty evidence or reason, I cannot…must not…be swayed simply by the say-so of a man claiming wisdom of above, when I can read what is before me.
I trust you understand.

This is simply God's Plan to hinder the adversary from knowing the plans of God, Much Like the adversary thought he was winning By crucifying The Son of Man. Each of us Know in part, and the point of that partial understanding is that we learn to set aside our pride, the worst kind being of the intellect But also Spiritual pride and learn to receive of one anothers admonition and correction of ones own errors as well receiving of those truths each of have been given in part. That can only come through love and fellowship with one another and not one upmanship and domineering via intellectual and Spiritual maturity.

Consider what Paul wrote:
Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:
But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:
Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.
But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God. (1 Corinthians 2:6-10)

So What you are asking is for me to reveal Spiritual truths that neither the human eye can see, Nor the human mind can comprehend using the theological framework of the Human mind and the human eye which is incapable of seeing these things. Although the rapture is as simple as our redemption it involves us being gathered together with the LORD to Join in union with Him and with all the faithful and saints in all the ages. ( see 2 Thessalonians 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, Paired with the High priestly Prayer of Christ as found in John 17 Part of which i quoted Earlier to @Waiting on him above.)

So By design the church is fractured that one day she will join in the unity of the Spirit when the fulness of the Gentiles is complete. By Fulness this is speaking of a quality of the Believer and not a quantity of believers. It is a fulness of Christ within those believers where they have learned to lay aside their reliance on the teachings of men and are fully reliant on the inspiration of the Holy Ghost. When God's love is perfected in us and Truth in its fulness is received

Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ: From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in [agape] love. (Ephesians 4:13-16)

You see something like this is too visionary for the intellectual to grasp, Because they are relying on the wisdom of this world, and this is where theology as a concept in the believers life falls apart.... Not so much that it is not needed, in that sound doctrine is the milk of the word of God, But there should come a time in the believers life where they learn to digest the meat of the Word. The meat is digested not by the mind, but by the Spirit, which then fills us. Without this enabling of the Spirit the mind will only choke on the meat.

Now you may be a great debater of your particular position and you may have intellectual prowess in doing so, But that is not what this post is for although it does draw a lot of people who think they know it all, that is because they would rather present their own agenda and eschatology over those of others and call all who reject them false teachers or heretics. As You pointed out, this is a "non essential of the faith" But it is also a place where when the Spirit is at work and the people are truly seeking truth, that truth will be arrived at. Until then it goes around in circles and endless bouncing to and fro, "ever learning and never arriving at truth".

So I can already guess your response to this, and that is this is a "diversion" off the topic But this is where Truth Starts it starts by saying we know nothing save Christ and Him crucified (1 Corinthians 2:2) Notice the chapter this comes from which was quoted earlier. this is my admonition to you, if you really are here to discover Truth or if you are here to practice one upmanship.

And this I say, lest any man should beguile you with enticing words. (Colossians 2:4)

 

[MatthewG]

So why do you believe in the rapture?

 

[Naomi25]

So What you are asking is for me to reveal Spiritual truths that neither the human eye can see, Nor the human mind can comprehend using the theological framework of the Human mind and the human eye which is incapable of seeing these things. Although the rapture is as simple as our redemption it involves us being gathered together with the LORD to Join in union with Him and with all the faithful and saints in all the ages. ( see 2 Thessalonians 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, Paired with the High priestly Prayer of Christ as found in John 17 Part of which i quoted Earlier to @Waiting on him above.)

You mistake me. I’m not asking for you to “reveal spiritual truths that neither the human eye can see, nor the human mind can comprehend”.
Indeed, it would be most difficult for the ‘human mind and human eye’ to be capable of seeing that which it cannot.
Luckily, that’s not what Paul or God means when they’re talking about certain ideas we can find within scripture. Although, I do suspect it might be a handy crutch if you’re talking to someone who doesn’t agree with you.

In point of fact, I do believe in the Rapture….the bible clearly teaches a moment when Jesus will call his church to meet him in the air, that wondrous moment when we’ll shed our old bodies and be given our new ones. I’m particularly looking forward to that as my old body doesn’t work very well.
I just don’t believe that this Rapture event will be separate from his “second coming”. I see scripture teaching a single second return.

So By design the church is fractured that one day she will join in the unity of the Spirit when the fulness of the Gentiles is complete. By Fulness this is speaking of a quality of the Believer and not a quantity of believers. It is a fulness of Christ within those believers where they have learned to lay aside their reliance on the teachings of men and are fully reliant on the inspiration of the Holy Ghost. When God's love is perfected in us and Truth in its fulness is received

Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ: From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in [agape] love. (Ephesians 4:13-16)

You see something like this is too visionary for the intellectual to grasp, Because they are relying on the wisdom of this world, and this is where theology as a concept in the believers life falls apart.... Not so much that it is not needed, in that sound doctrine is the milk of the word of God, But there should come a time in the believers life where they learn to digest the meat of the Word. The meat is digested not by the mind, but by the Spirit, which then fills us. Without this enabling of the Spirit the mind will only choke on the meat.

Now you may be a great debater of your particular position and you may have intellectual prowess in doing so, But that is not what this post is for although it does draw a lot of people who think they know it all, that is because they would rather present their own agenda and eschatology over those of others and call all who reject them false teachers or heretics. As You pointed out, this is a "non essential of the faith" But it is also a place where when the Spirit is at work and the people are truly seeking truth, that truth will be arrived at. Until then it goes around in circles and endless bouncing to and fro, "ever learning and never arriving at truth".

So I can already guess your response to this, and that is this is a "diversion" off the topic But this is where Truth Starts it starts by saying we know nothing save Christ and Him crucified (1 Corinthians 2:2) Notice the chapter this comes from which was quoted earlier. this is my admonition to you, if you really are here to discover Truth or if you are here to practice one upmanship.

And this I say, lest any man should beguile you with enticing words. (Colossians 2:4)

Yes, you did guess my reply. I’m sorry, but what on earth does any of this have to do with what we were talking about before? In conversational terms, you’ve just done a “what in the world is THAT over there?” Sort of thing. But in sort of a high-fluting intellectual way. Am I supposed to be intimidated, or just confused?
I’m neither….just wondering why the previous conversation was not to your liking.

 

[Waiting on him]

So why do you believe in the rapture?

Because it’s so enticing?

 

[Timtofly]

You "Add" to scripture something not seen, (First 2 Days) & (The Third Day) nowhere does it state your claims in scripture

When Jesus Christ Returns It Will Be (The End) Not The Start Of A Millennial Kingdom On Earth

As scripture clearly teaches below in 1 Corinthinas 15:23-24 , when Jesus Christ returns then comes (The End)

Many disregard (Then Cometh The End) as they desire to see a mortal Millennial Kingdom on earth, after the coming of Jesus Christ

afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. Then cometh the end, not a Millennial Kingdom on this earth as many falsely claim

(Then Cometh The End)

(Death Is Swallowed Up In Victory)

1 Corinthians 15:21-26 & 51-54KJV
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

That is not adding. That is comparing Scripture with Scripture.

You subtract the very words declaring Satan is bound for 1000 years. You claim these 1000 years cannot exist.

 

[Timtofly]

To my understanding, the NT places the Rapture of the Church at the same time as the resurrection of the dead. 1 Cor 15:20-55, 1 Thess 5:15-17. And the resurrection of the dead is the same time as the judgement occurs before the Throne of God…both living and dead: Rev 20:11-15, Matt 25:31-46, Daniel 7:9-14.
Nothing in the text gives us leave to separate these events, and in point of fact, 1 Cor 15:20-55 unite them for us.

Why do you add the words "both living"? Only the dead are mentioned in Revelation 20:11-15. Also it never claims they are resurrected. You claim a link is tenuous about the rapture, then you add to Scripture words and thoughts that are not even there. No living humans stand before the GWT, but that is a human assumption. No dead are described as resurrected, but that is a human assumption. The dead can stand before God, just as easily as souls slain for the Word of God can put on a robe of white (the 5th Seal). Many want to claim a point about the GWT, but then reject the same point about another verse.

The last verse of chapter 20 states:

15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

If there is a resurrection at the GWT, it would be given to those who are found written in the book of life. This means those dead were judged. Their name was found. But the decision was made to remove their name. We are not told if that is God's decision or each dead person's decision to remain in the book of life. There is no reasonable explanation to claim their name was never there, and the decision was made to add it to the book of life. The point is made they were never allowed the choice to reject God.

We have been taught that those who reject God do not get a second chance. If the dead at the GWT are judged according to the book of life it is certainly not about a second chance to be added. It would be the first chance to be removed. Adding a name would go against the doctrine of a second chance.

Universalism would teach that all should be allowed to be in the book of life, even if they rejected God and had been removed.

However since a name would still be there, even for those in sheol, the decision has to be made to remove it, or give that dead soul a resurrection. Only then can it be said, the rest of the dead lived not again until the GWT. Verse 5 is not a guarantee any will live again. It is a statement they have to wait until the GWT, if they do live again. They can only be resurrected and live again if their name is still found in the book of life. It is not added to the book of life.

15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

The point is a name was found. If a name is found, those dead would no longer be standing before the GWT, but they would be given life and resurrected. The alternative was being cast into the Lake of Fire.


The pattern was set in verse 4:

The thrones, the judgment, then life was given. Only then declared a resurrection. At the GWT, the judgment, and only then life declared. The dead are not given life to stand in judgment. The dead are given life after the judgment.

 

[Timtofly]

You do understand that Amillennialism holds to an apocalyptic reading of Revelation, right? Which means that number usage within the book is symbolic, not literal.
I don’t mind if you object to the system, everyone’s got their beef with something. But if you’re going to berate it, try objecting to what it actually holds, yeah? For example…you could tell me why you think the taking the 1000 years in a non literal way is unfaithful to apocalyptic genre, rather than pretending Amil’s hold to a hermeneutical standard they do not, and tearing that down instead.
Yeah?

Where is the doctrine of apocalyptic genre found in God's Word?

Your assumption is based on human made understanding.

 

[Timtofly]

Indeed, let us consider them:

Matthew 24:36-42
No One Knows That Day and Hour
“But concerning that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father only. For as were the days of Noah, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. For as in those days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day when Noah entered the ark, and they were unaware until the flood came and swept them all away, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. Then two men will be in the field; one will be taken and one left. Two women will be grinding at the mill; one will be taken and one left. Therefore, stay awake, for you do not know on what day your Lord is coming.

The whole point of this parable and passage is that we “don’t know the day or hour” our Lord is coming.
It’s not to tell us that we’ll be wished away in a Rapture.
Let’s look: ‘concerning the day or hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father only’. This is clearly what leads us into the passage and tells us what is framing it: not what, not how…not even when. Just that we CANNOT know. And that thus, we must be ready. We are then given examples of readiness.
“For as in the days of Noah”. Okay, so we have a reference to Noah here. Does it tell us that as Noah was taken out of harms way, so we too can expect it? No. That as Noah trusted in God he was removed from harm, so we too can expect it? No. IT’s got NOTHING to do with Noah’s being placed into the Ark and being spared. The whole THEME of this passage is readiness and unexpectedness. And THUS is was in Noah’s day. The people who drowned had no notion that judgement was coming upon them. If they did, don’t you think they too would have been building boats? Or begging Noah to take them with him? No…they were…as this very passage tells us…eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage. And then it was too late. Judgement and death was upon them.
To make the message even surer…Jesus goes on and gives more examples of how swift this judgement will be….two in the field…one taken, one left. That’s blink of an eye territory. And we know that the Rapture, when it happens, will be.
But again, the POINT of the parable here is NOT that Noah was “pseudo-raptured” and thus we may expect to be before our modern day flood of wrath. No…the parable is that we must always be ready. To read anything else into the parable is eisegesis.

Now Luke:

Luke 17:27-33
They were eating and drinking and marrying and being given in marriage, until the day when Noah entered the ark, and the flood came and destroyed them all. Likewise, just as it was in the days of Lot—they were eating and drinking, buying and selling, planting and building, but on the day when Lot went out from Sodom, fire and sulfur rained from heaven and destroyed them all—so will it be on the day when the Son of Man is revealed. On that day, let the one who is on the housetop, with his goods in the house, not come down to take them away, and likewise let the one who is in the field not turn back. Remember Lot’s wife. Whoever seeks to preserve his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life will keep it.


Again, this parable warns of impending and swift judgement and the need to always be ready and watching. We have the same reference to Noah as we did in the Matt 24 passage, letting us know how similar these passages will be. Luke gives us more information on Lot.
“They were eating and drinking, buying and selling, planting and building”. These are every day living activities, ones people do without thinking. Things they do to just live…routine. We…all of us, fall into these routines far too easily, without giving thought or purpose to what we should….Jesus. And the day he might crack open the sky. How did things turn out for Lot, as he was going about his daily life in a wicked world?
It all went rather badly rather quickly for him, didn’t it?
“Let the one who is on the housetop, with his goods in the house, not come down to take them away, and likewise let the one who is in the field not turn back. Remember Lot’s wife.”
Remember Lot’s wife. People who cling too hard to this world, who turn back because of the pleasures of this world, will loose their lives when sudden destruction comes upon them.
The lesson of this parable is NOT that as Christians we “get” a nice Rapture before 7 years of tribulation. It’s that as Christians we need to hold loosely to this world and keep our eyes on Jesus. Especially since we ‘don’t know what day or hour’. The two parables fit hand in glove. A person not knowing when Jesus is going to return should be encouraged, even more, to keep their eyes on Christ.
If both parables are “relax folks, the Rapture’s coming before things get hairy”….well, quite frankly….I simply don’t know how you’d get that read from those parables.

The rapture and Second Coming is the same event. No one can figure out and claim the day and hour of either. So the Second Coming is not in chapter 16 nor 19. That event is planned down to the day, and the hour.

 

[Jay Ross]

When Jesus Christ Returns It Will Be (The End) Not The Start Of A Millennial Kingdom On Earth

As scripture clearly teaches below in 1 Corinthinas 15:23-24 , when Jesus Christ returns then comes (The End)

Many disregard (Then Cometh The End) as they desire to see a mortal Millennial Kingdom on earth, after the coming of Jesus Christ

afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. "Then Cometh The End" not a Millennial Kingdom on this earth as many falsely claim

(Then Cometh The End)

(Death Is Swallowed Up In Victory)

Since the Millennium is clearly revealed in Revelation 20, you are the one who is FALSELY CLAIMING that there is no Millennium. Therefore you have identified yourself as a false teacher by denying what the Bible affirms.

BEWARE OF FALSE TEACHERS IS WHAT CHRISTIANS ARE WARNED ABOUT.

I believe in the 1 Thess 4 "rapture" where "we, {the saints}, who are still alive" will be wished away up to the clouds to greet Christ in the air as His second advent unfolds to judge both the wicked and the righteous. However, since I will have been dead for at least 1,000 years, then the actual part of 1 Thess 4 I believe in is this: -

1 Thess 4:13-18: - 13 But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.

15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.​

NKJV​

This is the primary passage of scripture that is quoted to support the "rapture" theory but the transliteral word used in the Greek text is "
harpagēsometha," which has the translated meaning given to it of "shall be caught up" with them that are dead in Christ.

As such, Truth7t7, is correct in his post above in his comments on 1 Cor 15:23-24 quoted below: -

1 Cor 15:20-28: - 20 But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21 For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. 23 But each one in his own order: Christ the first fruits, afterward those who are Christ's at His coming. 24 Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power. 25 For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet. 26 The last enemy that will be destroyed is death. 27 For "He has put all things under His feet." But when He says "all things are put under Him," it is evident that He who put all things under Him is excepted. 28 Now when all things are made subject to Him, then the Son Himself will also be subject to Him who put all things under Him, that God may be all in all.​

NKJV​

Now the question is, when will Christ be given dominion and a kingdom over all of the people of the earth and how will Christ then administer his Dominion over all of the earth.

Daniel 7:13-14 gives us a clue. Christ's dominion is that all of the people on the earth should serve Him, but we know from scripture that this will not be so, because Christ has already told us that Satan will have his "Good and faithful servants," opposing Christ while Satan is imprisoned in the Bottomless Pit for 1,000 years in the vain hope that He, Satan, can after the 1,000 years of imprisonment will then be able to reign over all of the peoples who he has not killed, because they would not bow down to worship him. After Satan's imprisonment for 1,000 years he and his fellow fallen wicked angels, and the kings of the earth will be released for a little while to usurp Christ's dominion over the peoples of the earth.

People's simple literal understanding of the scriptures, often leads to a wrong understanding because of the wrong spirit within them.

Shalom

PS: - If anyone is able to demonstrate that the above post is in error then I will happily concede that I am wrong.

 

[Enoch111]

PS: - If anyone is able to demonstrate that the above post is in error then I will happily concede that I am wrong.

How many fallacies should we list in this post? Or do you wish to review and revise?

 

[Jay Ross]

How many fallacies should we list in this post? Or do you wish to review and revise?

Go for it if you can. I have observed, over time, many of the fallacies that you have published believing them to be also true. You can start wherever you please, but please quote scripture and not just your opinion. Then we will have a solid foundation to have a conversation with.

 

[Enoch111]

FALLACY #1: COMBINING THE RAPTURE AND THE SECOND COMING

I believe in the 1 Thess 4 "rapture" where "we, {the saints}, who are still alive" will be wished away up to the clouds to greet Christ in the air as His second advent unfolds to judge both the wicked and the righteous.

The Resurrection/Rapture is strictly for the saints where Christ comes in "the air" and returns with all the saints in their resurrected and/or transformed glorified bodies. The Second Coming and the judgment of the unsaved and ungodly are two different events AFTER the Resurrection/Rapture. So you have made a mishmash of four different things.

FALLACY #2. THE SAINTS ARE DEAD AFTER THE RESURRECTION/RAPTURE

However, since I will have been dead for at least 1,000 years, then the actual part of 1 Thess 4 I believe in is this:

How in the world will anyone be dead after the Resurrection/Rapture, since all the saints will be in Heaven?

FALLACY #3. THE RESURRECTION/RAPTURE IS NOT ONE EVENT

This is the primary passage of scripture that is quoted to support the "rapture" theory but the transliteral word used in the Greek text is " harpagēsometha," which has the translated meaning given to it of "shall be caught up" with them that are dead in Christ.

The dead in Christ are the souls and spirits of the saints who died in Christ and are now in Heaven. Jesus will bring them to earth in order to take up their resurrected bodies and return to Heaven. Within nanoseconds the saints who are alive at that time will be transformed, perfected, and receive their glorious bodies to dwell in Heaven. All of this is one event at the Resurrection/Rapture when they are all "caught up together" to meet the Lord in the air.

Now the question is, when will Christ be given dominion and a kingdom over all of the people of the earth and how will Christ then administer his Dominion over all of the earth.

This will be at the Millennium, and later on after the New Heavens and the New Earth have been established. In between there will be the battle of Gog and Magog, the final doom of Satan, the Great White Throne Judgment, the supernatural burning up of the earth and its atmosphere. Only then will the eternal Kingdom of God be literally established on earth. So the Millennium is a preview.

 

[Curtis]

Why I reject the rapture theory:

The belief and teaching that all humans have natural immortality via an immortal soul can be traced back thousands of years. We can see from history that nations like Egypt and Babylon taught their people about an immortal soul in every human, that continued to live, to think and to experience life, after the body had died. Depending on the nation and on their spiritual theology they had, would come various teachings about where and under what conditions this immortal soul would experience after the death of the physical body. Some nations would bury the dead body in graves with all kinds of things for the departed to take with them and to use to enjoy in the afterlife.

Different nations may have had different places where the departed soul would live when it left the dead body, but to put it in simple language, the immortal soul was in a "heaven" of some sort. They even had gloomy underworlds for those not thought to have done enough good in their physical lives to warrant the prize of "heaven."

All this should start to sound somewhat familiar with certain teaching and beliefs of many Christian churches and organizations. Many have heard the "hell-fire and brimstone" sermons preached loud and vigorously by a Christian minister or Camp-meeting tent revivalist. Such preaching of course includes telling you that if you "give your heart to the Lord" and turn from sin, you can "go to heaven" and live in bliss, doing...well they are not sure, maybe singing and strumming on a harp?

Just about all Christians today believe they shall "get to heaven" one day. They firmly believe that going to heaven is one of the basic rewards of being Christian. To think, and to teach

otherwise, to them, is pretty close to being a nutty and strange heretic. They are convinced the Bible shows and tells us that going to heaven is the automatic reward of the children of God. And most believe that going to heaven takes place when the physical body stops breathing and dies. Yet this common and prevailing theological view was not the common view or teaching of the early New Testament Church of God.

The early NT church did not teach or believe in going to heaven at death, for those faithful Christians. Church history shows that it was only through the teachings of people like Clement of Alexandria, Origen, and others that most professing Christians gradually came to adopt the belief of the immortal soul, and going immediately "somewhere" after the death of the body. Many were coming into the popular church of the Roman Empire, founded in Rome, who already held to Hellenistic philosophy, Egyptian mythology, and Babylonian Mystery religions, with an after death life of some sort as the foundation of it all. They did not want to give up this teaching and belief, just as they did not want to abandon many other false teachings and practices. So, to accommodate them the large popular church took many of these old pagan beliefs and re-clothed them with Christian garments. Hence, as the millenniums came and went today's doctrines of the immortal soul as taught together with an ever burning hell fire for the wicked, a purgatory for those who may not have sinned unto eternal torment, and can possibly yet be granted heaven and a heaven where God is, for the righteous. All this came to be church doctrines.

Most Christians believe they will at some point "get to heaven" where God is dwelling. Some do not believe you go to heaven at death, but that death is a sleep until the resurrection, then when Jesus returns to raise the righteous dead, all go back with Him to heaven for a thousand years, until the new earth comes into being. Others believe that Christ returns to "rapture" His Church away from the terrible tribulation then taking place on the earth, and that they spent either 7 years or 3 1/2 years in heaven, before returning again with Christ to set up the Kingdom of God on earth for a thousand years.



KINGDOM OF HEAVEN ?

Some will say, "Well Christ talked about our being in the Kingdom of heaven. Surely that proves we shall 'go to heaven'. If it does, then some shall be in heaven while others are not. Matthew 5:3-5. Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the Kingdom of heaven....blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the earth. The Kingdom OF heaven is the Kingdom that BELONGS to heaven. It is owned and operated by heaven. the Kingdom that BELONGS to God, not the Kingdom inside God. The Gospels according to Mark and Luke use "Kingdom OF God"


OUR REWARD IS IN HEAVEN

Is not our reward to go to heaven? Are there not some verses that say something to that effect? Here they are: Rejoice, and be exceeding glad; for great is your reward in heaven.... Matthew 5:12 Do not display your religion before others, if you do you will have no reward from your Father in heaven. Matthew 6:1 But lay up for yourselves treasure in heaven.....Luke 6:23 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled…reserved in heaven for you. 1 Peter 1:4

Now, let's be honest. Do the above verses say: "Our reward is to get to heaven" or "When we get to heaven we shall be given our reward." Do these verses say: "Our reserved inheritance is to get to heaven to be with God" ? No, they do not! Truly, Christians will receive rewards and we are to inherit eternal life, but when? Eternal life comes at the resurrection. Read 1 Cor.15; Rev.2:10; 2 Tim.4:8 Our rewards are to be given to us by Christ at His return. And, behold, I come quickly, and MY REWARD IS WITH ME, to give every man according as his work shall be.

Rev. 22:12 Our rewards and inheritance are reserved in heaven. They come down out of heaven with Christ at his return.


NAMED TO GO TO HEAVEN?

Are not Christians named and written down in a book to go to heaven? ….but rather rejoice, because your names are written in heaven Luke 10:20 To the general assembly and church of

the firstborn, which are written in heaven....Heb. 12:23

Do these verses say, "Because you will go to heaven" or "The church of the firstborn will one day get to heaven" ? No! Our names (God knows who are His) are written down in the book of

life, the book of life being in heaven. But we receive life eternal after the Great White Throne Judgement, when the Book of Life is opened. Revelation 20:11-15

Nice theory, too bad it’s actually not biblical.

(BTW every scripture underlined is a link to that Bible verse in this forum, then you just hit the back arrow, to return here.)

The following is a very brief synopsis of the biblical facts that utterly refute soul sleep dogma:

A synopsis of facts:


1. Our body is a HOME we leave at death, and go to be with Jesus. 2 Corinthians 5:1-6-8


2. The soul leaves the body at death, therefore doesn’t sleep with it. 1 kings 17:21-23 ; Genesis 35:18


3. Damned humans are put in the same place that spirits called fallen angels are put - who have no bodies to bury or sleep in dirt - hence hell can’t be the grave. Matthew 25:41


4. John sees souls under the altar in heaven, who’ve been slain by the Antichrist, and they are talking to God, so are conscious and awaiting bodily resurrection - not sleeping in the dirt. Revelation 6:9-10


5. When Jesus returns from heaven to resurrect the dead, He brings those souls John saw in heaven back with Him to reunite with their risen and immortal bodies:

1 Thessalonians 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive andremain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:


6. There are beings under the earth who talk, thus are conscious - not buried in dirt while asleep in the grave. Revelation 5:13


7. Moses has died, but Moses’ soul isn’t taking a snooze in the dirt, because he visited Jesus on the mount of transfiguration. Mark 9:4

 

[David H.]

In point of fact, I do believe in the Rapture….the bible clearly teaches a moment when Jesus will call his church to meet him in the air, that wondrous moment when we’ll shed our old bodies and be given our new ones. I’m particularly looking forward to that as my old body doesn’t work very well.
I just don’t believe that this Rapture event will be separate from his “second coming”. I see scripture teaching a single second return.

I Agree that the second coming is a single second return, and my Prewrath views account for this. The pretribbers have to add multiple comings and multiple raptures/ resurrection to make their theory work, Prewrathers do not have this issue, but this is another debate. What I do separate is the day of Christ and the Day of the Lord, the Wrath of the Lamb and the Wrath of God, and am in agreement with the pretribbers on some of these distinctions. Judgment Begins at the House of God, The day of Christ is the rapture of the church, but also the separation of the wheat and tares before the rapture which is the wrath of the Lamb. These events are church specific the House of God, we are the temple. the wrath of God and day of the Lord is for the Wicked of the World, and the righteous will not witness these events. So You see we are communicating on the topic.

Yes, you did guess my reply. I’m sorry, but what on earth does any of this have to do with what we were talking about before? In conversational terms, you’ve just done a “what in the world is THAT over there?” Sort of thing. But in sort of a high-fluting intellectual way. Am I supposed to be intimidated, or just confused?
I’m neither….just wondering why the previous conversation was not to your liking.

The reason why I brought up this diversion is because I have dealt with many who hold your views (amill. if I am correct, please confirm or deny?) and many of them rely on the higher criticism of Graf and Wellhausen to argue their points. I have been down that road before and it is the ultimate distraction to arriving at the truth of the word of God and leads to endless circles and rabbit holes which only bring confusion and Babel to the church. In fact many of them deny the concept of the day of Christ as the proper translation of 1 Thessalonians 2:2, and their error begins there. In relying on this higher criticism their faith is in the philosophy of man which is contrary to the Wisdom of God and because of this they often demean those who are Spirit taught as being naive and or irrational. But the fact is the Gospel is foolishness to the Greek which is the foundation of western Philosophy and Higher criticism, thus for myself and for you to communicate without it descending into this bickering of "eisegesis, and Exegesis, and accusation of straw men and all the Philosophical fallacies" That the Gospel is based on then it will not be worth my time and effort to debate you. For the Gospel is foolishness to the wise of this world, and the rapture is is not a logical conclusion derived from scripture, but one that is revealed by the Spirit in all its intricacies and timing to those who are being taught by the Spirit in the Wisdom of God.

I Myself am a premillenialist, and scripture is clear on when this millennium begins, at the second coming of Christ, This point has been rehashed over and over again on this post, and is itself contrary to the Word of God yet many here twist scripture to make it fit. You as a Amill. see the short season of Satan as described in revelation 12 as the same short season that comes after the millennium if I am correct? I On the other hand see these as two short separate seasons one referring to the 42 month rule of the man the first beast, and the other when Satan is loosed from being chained in the bottomless pit and all the souls of them who rejected the Gospel with him as a part of the second resurrection of damnation, when death and hell are cast into the lake of fire where the beast and the false prophet already have been for a thousand years. Sure, there are nuances and exceptions to this such as those written in the book of life and who they are, But if this is the resurrection the faithful and the saints you are waiting for, Then you are missing out on the blessed Hope of the second coming of Christ.

 

[GRACE ambassador]

6. There are beings under the earth who talk, thus are conscious - not buried in dirt while asleep in the grave. Revelation 5:13

Also Luke 16 : 19-31

 

[farouk]

Many claim Jesus will literally return and rule "On This Earth" In A Millennium this being false in deception

Jesus warned his followers against this teaching, Jesus wont be found anywhere upon this earth as many claim

The Antichrist will be in Jerusalem, claiming to be Messiah Returned, "Beware"!

"Believe It Not" "Go Not Forth"

Matthew 24:23-27KJV
23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
25 Behold, I have told you before.
26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Revelation 13:13-14KJV
13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,
14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.

Revelation 19:20KJV
20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

It would seem that the context of Matthew 24 would be after the church has gone.

 

[Keraz]

The following is a very brief synopsis of the biblical facts that utterly refute soul sleep dogma:

The state of suspended animation that all humans experience after death, is for the dead person, an instant transition from life: to standing with all the rest of the dead before the Great White Throne Judgement of God. Revelation 20:11-15

Scripture says that when a person dies their soul goes back to God, who made it and because with God there is no time; then at the Great White Throne Judgement, after the Millennium, that soul; along with every soul that ever lived, is made conscious again at the time of Judgement. Revelation 20:12, There is no knowledge of any time passing between death and Judgement, just as Hebrews 9:27 says; It is the human lot to die once, then comes the Judgement.

Jesus said about Lazarus: He has fallen asleep… but then He clarified that Lazarus was really dead. John 11:11-14 Paul often mentions those who sleep in death.
So Lazarus’s resurrection was a preview of the saints raised with Jesus at His resurrection and those saints who will be raised at His Return, Revelation 20:4
They all received and will receive mortal bodies, that are subject to death again.

But as Paul tells us in 1 Corinthians 15:50-56, there will be some Christians alive at the end of the Millennium, who will never die, they will be transformed at the time of Judgement into immortality, along with all the rest whose names are written in the Book of Life.

The parable about Abraham and Lazarus, the beggar: is a scene AFTER that GWT Judgement, a homily for all to realize what our fate will be if we refuse to honor God.

The flesh we currently inhabit will not be reconstituted, those worthy to go into Eternity with God will be spiritual beings. Matthew 22:30 In the resurrection…..they are like the angels in heaven.


Job 14:10-15 When a human dies, all his power vanishes, he is like a dried up river. So mortal man lies down and never to rise, until the heavens be no more!

Lord, I ask that You hide me in the grave, conceal me until Your wrath has passed, then Lord; remember me at Your appointed time! I will wait, however long it takes for the change to come. Then, You will summon me and I will answer: I am the work of Your hands.

The sequence is:
1/ We all die. The only exceptions will be those remaining alive at the end of the Millennium. Eccl 12:7, Isaiah 38:10-11, Acts 13:36

2/ The Lord’s wrath will pass; all as is prophesied to happen. Revelation 15:1

3/ The dead know nothing until the Appointed time for the Great White Throne Judgement, when there will be new heavens and a new earth. Revelation 21:1-4

4/ Then, for those whose names are written in the Book of Life, the change will come; into immortality for Eternity. As described in 1 Corinthians 15:50-56.