Where are the 5...

[theefaith]

In the wilderness. How did Christ resist temptation?

quote scripture

what’s you’re point

 

[amadeus]

But charismatic practices are a condemned heresy

Condemned by whom? You or some other men? You have not defined what you mean by charismatic which if you are going to condemn them would be helpful. Are referring perhaps to speaking in tongues?

First Apostle Paul about himself:
"I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all:" I Cor 14:18

Then he speaks about others:
"Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues." I Cor 14:39

 

[theefaith]

They aren't alone, they are in harmony. The whole Bible is about Jesus. Some claim He is on every page. He is the Word. He is Love and He is the Creator, the Author of our Faith, which is a gift. Faith is not alone. Grace encompasses all God's gifts. Everything that is good comes from God. Faith is not alone, it consists of knowledge, love, a relationship, uniquely wrapped up your own individual life.
Jesus is not alone, we have the Father and the Holy Spirit. The God's unmerited favor (grace), which consists of all that is good starts with a seed that is planted in your heart and it grows to produce fruit, the fruit of the Spirit. Notice the capital S? It is fruit that pridhces work - all from God. God gets the credit.
Not everyone's life is exactly the same. Each individual has a different level of Faith, composed if a different amount of knowledge, a different perspective and understanding. Each of us comes from a different frame of reference, different experiences. The Holy Spirit works in our lives in unique ways designed and orchestrated differently for each individual. Our testimonies are all different. You have different parents and different life experiences that God used to save you. They are different then mine. So I have faith that consists of my knowledge, my perspective, my understanding and my relationship with Jesus. Don't attack It, leave it alone and don't be so narrow minded to think that God doesn't have all of us in His hands, believing in Christ together, not alone. The Body is composed of billions of parts, us. The hand does not lift a hammer to smash the foot. You talk about love, where is in all this? Where is your brotherly love? Constantly picking fights attacking your own body.
Let it be ... It is as if you are in denial that God can do a work in anyone unless they are Catholic.
He is working in your life and in mine. Let it be.
You are unique, different from anyone on earth, yet you are part of the Body of Christ. You have a specific function/purpose. You seem to think it is to attack other parts of the Body, disown, disassociate Christians to the level of hatred. Do you really think that is a purpose God gave you to relentlessness war against Christians who all have a different understanding of faith?
Let it be. Go do some good, love one another. Don't wake up everyday motivated by hatred towards Protestants. "How many ways can I find to defeat them, change their minds ... how many scriptures can I use against them ... I am winning ... for Christ!" No you're not.

you can’t be n union with Christ in the new covenant without being in union with his church and what it teaches

rejection of the church and what it teaches is rejection of Christ

matt 12:30 He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad.

 

[theefaith]

Yes, but who is to be our teacher?

"But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you." John 14:26


"Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen." Matt 28:19-20

You my friend are presuming that the pronoun, "ye" is speaking only to those apostles physically present to hear Jesus' words with the natural ears. Are we not to read the Bible ourselves and then as we read it understand that he is speaking to you and me and any person who reads what is written to them? We are included in the "ye"!


The problem with that if of course is that first I must agree or believe that that Pope, that is Pope Pius XI, is an apostle speaking God's Word and that I must listen to and obey his words instead of what I hear in my heart from the Holy Ghost. If your advice is good, why is it then that beginning with John XXIII we are no longer to listen to the Popes sitting in the Vatican? You say it and perhaps you believe it, but without the direction of the Holy Ghost as per the verse I quoted above [John 14:26] why should I or anyone decide to go the way that you have gone and are going? Have all faithful Catholics read with understanding that encyclical of Pius XI? Why is there now your camp and the camp of what you call the Vatican II sect, the latter being apostate? What is the difference between that split and the one which started a few hundred years ago with Martin Luther or with the split between those in Rome and those in Constantinople several hundred years prior to Luther?

Why pay more attention the encyclical of Pius XI than to Pope John XXIII or today's Pope Francis? Because you say so? I do say something different: Why not simply listen to what Jesus is saying to his sheep via the Holy Ghost?

"But he that entereth in by the door is the shepherd of the sheep.
To him the porter openeth; and the sheep hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out.
And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice." John 10:2-4

pius 9 10 11 12 are valid and teach catholic and divine faith
Beginning with anti-pope John 23 they are invalid teaching heresy error and apostasy

 

[theefaith]

Condemned by whom? You or some other men? You have not defined what you mean by charismatic which if you are going to condemn them would be helpful. Are referring perhaps to speaking in tongues?

First Apostle Paul about himself:
"I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all:" I Cor 14:18

Then he speaks about others:
"Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues." I Cor 14:39

by the holy apostles in the early church

scripture refers to foreign languages not charismatic babbling

 

[amadeus]

pius 9 10 11 12 are valid and teach catholic and divine faith
Beginning with anti-pope John 23 they are invalid teaching heresy error and apostasy

To me and to most people that is an arbitrary division made by men. Why is it different than what Martin Luther did? If you simply believe it by faith, that is your testimony, but for others walking and talking with God, it is not seen. Do not be surprised if your point of division is rejected! I have no reason to embrace it.

 

[theefaith]

To me and to most people that is an arbitrary division made by men. Why is it different than what Martin Luther did? If you simply believe it by faith, that is your testimony, but for others walking and talking with God, it is not seen. Do not be surprised if your point of division is rejected! I have no reason to embrace it.

no it’s what are they teaching?

thee faith revealed by God in Christ to his church the apostles eph 4:5 Jude 1:3

 

[Brakelite]

quote scripture

what’s you’re point

Well. He could have referred the devil to the magisterium, oh sorry, the Sanhedrin. Or, being the Son of God, He could have recited any number of traditions and stories of the Jewish fathers going back millennia. Perhaps to prove His authority and His identity which is what the devil was challenging Him on, Jesus could have worked a miracle, done some wonderful work, like ummm, changed a stone into bread or something. Oh wait. No, that wouldn't have worked. How silly of me.
You are correct of course. In order to resist the temptation of promoting His own honor, He referred to scripture as the basis for faith and practise. 3 times. That's good enough for me. That's my example.

 

[theefaith]

Well. He could have referred the devil to the magisterium, oh sorry, the Sanhedrin. Or, being the Son of God, He could have recited any number of traditions and stories of the Jewish fathers going back millennia. Perhaps to prove His authority and His identity which is what the devil was challenging Him on, Jesus could have worked a miracle, done some wonderful work, like ummm, changed a stone into bread or something. Oh wait. No, that wouldn't have worked. How silly of me.
You are correct of course. In order to resist the temptation of promoting His own honor, He referred to scripture as the basis for faith and practise. 3 times. That's good enough for me. That's my example.

without the church you cannot know what is scripture and what is not scripture!

 

[Brakelite]

without the church you cannot know what is scripture and what is not scripture!

The Catholic Church didn't put together any scripture in book form until the 50 Bibles Constantine sponsored in the 4th century. Yet the church existed for centuries before then, was well established throughout the empire to the west as far as Britain, and had grown exponentially eastward throughout Persia and Assyria and down into India and the lands we know today as Afghanistan and Asia. They had copies of the scriptures. They didn't need a Roman emperor or a boot licking bishop to tell them what was scripture and what wasn't.
Previous to the destruction of Jerusalem in A.D. 70 by the Roman army, at which time the apostles were dispersed, the gospel had gone to Samaria, Ethiopia, Syria, Asia Minor, Greece, Italy, and India. The religion of Christ was enriched in all utterance. As a bright and shining light, it evangelized Zoroastrians, Buddhists, Greek philosophers, and Confucianists, laying strong foundations for the future. As the apostolic church advanced, the gospel was planted not only in diverse nations, but in different languages. Often the same language was used by several nations. Therefore, Syrian or Syriac Christianity refers to all churches which are indebted to Syrian origins; that is, to Syrian missionaries and authors to whom later churches looked as pioneers of the Syriac language in their services; as, for example, in Syria, Assyria, Persia, India, and China. Similarly, the term Celtic Christianity applies to all churches and nations which used the Celtic language in their divine worship, such as Galatia and France, as well as Ireland, Scotland, and England before England was overrun by the pagan Anglo-Saxons. Greek Christianity refers to the churches throughout the world where the Greek language was used in their literature and worship. Latin Christianity refers particularly to the homeland of the Romans, Italy. So of these had copies of the scriptures in their own languages, and handed down faithfully throughout generations until destroyed by later enemies.

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

you can’t be n union with Christ in the new covenant without being in union with his church and what it teaches

rejection of the church and what it teaches is rejection of Christ

matt 12:30 He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad.

The CHURCH is not a building, it is not a belief system, it is the BODY OF CHRIST, which includes ALL BELIEVERS IN CHRIST - Catholics, Protestants, Non-denominational. That amounts to about 2.65+ billion. Furthermore it will include people that may at the moment be atheists, Muslims, Buddhists or any other religion, who at the final moments of their lives, call out to Jesus for salvation. Just that small act of faith, with practically little knowledge, no water baptism, no church attendance with years of study and growth, no apparent works, no spreading the gospel, nothing. But all through their lives, they heard about Jesus, seeds were planted but remained dormant and at the last moment, they call out to Jesus. God was preparing them all along for that moment, a moment when they abandoned all their belief system and reached out to Jesus.
The first will be last and the last will be first. Does that seem fair? You know the Parable of the Workers in the Vinyard (Matt. 20); who were sent out early and agreed to work for a denarius? Later more more workers came for the same pay. Finally more came at the 11th hour and they were all paid the same. That is like the kingdom of heaven.
I see love in many people who are'nt Christian. God is love, so can assume He is working in their lives. So be careful about who you judge. God is merciful and forgiving to whosoever asks ... The door will open. You assume people have to jump through all these man-made hoops to get into the Kingdom. God prepares us and guides us through a wide range and diverse set of circumstances unique to each one of us.

 

[Brakelite]

The CHURCH is not a building, it is not a belief system, it is the BODY OF CHRIST, which includes ALL BELIEVERS IN CHRIST - Catholics, Protestants, Non-denominational. That amounts to about 2.65+ billion. Furthermore it will include people that may at the moment be atheists, Muslims, Buddhists or any other religion, who at the final moments of their lives, call out to Jesus for salvation. Just that small act of faith, with practically little knowledge, no water baptism, no church attendance with years of study and growth, no apparent works, no spreading the gospel, nothing. But all through their lives, they heard about Jesus, seeds were planted but remained dormant and at the last moment, they call out to Jesus. God was preparing them all along for that moment, a moment when they abandoned all their belief system and reached out to Jesus.
The first will be last and the last will be first. Does that seem fair? You know the Parable of the Workers in the Vinyard (Matt. 20); who were sent out early and agreed to work for a denarius? Later more more workers came for the same pay. Finally more came at the 11th hour and they were all paid the same. That is like the kingdom of heaven.
I see love in many people who are'nt Christian. God is love, so can assume He is working in their lives. So be careful about who you judge. God is merciful and forgiving to whosoever asks ... The door will open. You assume people have to jump through all these man-made hoops to get into the Kingdom. God prepares us and guides us through a wide range and diverse set of circumstances unique to each one of us.

Amen. Well said.

 

[theefaith]

The Catholic Church didn't put together any scripture in book form until the 50 Bibles Constantine sponsored in the 4th century. Yet the church existed for centuries before then, was well established throughout the empire to the west as far as Britain, and had grown exponentially eastward throughout Persia and Assyria and down into India and the lands we know today as Afghanistan and Asia. They had copies of the scriptures. They didn't need a Roman emperor or a boot licking bishop to tell them what was scripture and what wasn't.
Previous to the destruction of Jerusalem in A.D. 70 by the Roman army, at which time the apostles were dispersed, the gospel had gone to Samaria, Ethiopia, Syria, Asia Minor, Greece, Italy, and India. The religion of Christ was enriched in all utterance. As a bright and shining light, it evangelized Zoroastrians, Buddhists, Greek philosophers, and Confucianists, laying strong foundations for the future. As the apostolic church advanced, the gospel was planted not only in diverse nations, but in different languages. Often the same language was used by several nations. Therefore, Syrian or Syriac Christianity refers to all churches which are indebted to Syrian origins; that is, to Syrian missionaries and authors to whom later churches looked as pioneers of the Syriac language in their services; as, for example, in Syria, Assyria, Persia, India, and China. Similarly, the term Celtic Christianity applies to all churches and nations which used the Celtic language in their divine worship, such as Galatia and France, as well as Ireland, Scotland, and England before England was overrun by the pagan Anglo-Saxons. Greek Christianity refers to the churches throughout the world where the Greek language was used in their literature and worship. Latin Christianity refers particularly to the homeland of the Romans, Italy. So of these had copies of the scriptures in their own languages, and handed down faithfully throughout generations until destroyed by later enemies.

the church wrote the New Testament

 

[theefaith]

The CHURCH is not a building, it is not a belief system, it is the BODY OF CHRIST, which includes ALL BELIEVERS IN CHRIST - Catholics, Protestants, Non-denominational. That amounts to about 2.65+ billion. Furthermore it will include people that may at the moment be atheists, Muslims, Buddhists or any other religion, who at the final moments of their lives, call out to Jesus for salvation. Just that small act of faith, with practically little knowledge, no water baptism, no church attendance with years of study and growth, no apparent works, no spreading the gospel, nothing. But all through their lives, they heard about Jesus, seeds were planted but remained dormant and at the last moment, they call out to Jesus. God was preparing them all along for that moment, a moment when they abandoned all their belief system and reached out to Jesus.
The first will be last and the last will be first. Does that seem fair? You know the Parable of the Workers in the Vinyard (Matt. 20); who were sent out early and agreed to work for a denarius? Later more more workers came for the same pay. Finally more came at the 11th hour and they were all paid the same. That is like the kingdom of heaven.
I see love in many people who are'nt Christian. God is love, so can assume He is working in their lives. So be careful about who you judge. God is merciful and forgiving to whosoever asks ... The door will open. You assume people have to jump through all these man-made hoops to get into the Kingdom. God prepares us and guides us through a wide range and diverse set of circumstances unique to each one of us.

purely spiritual church is not biblical
A Body is physical
Body of Christ

a city set on a hill

Dan 2: 44 And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.

Isaiah 2:2
And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the Lord's house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it.

Micah 4:1
But in the last days it shall come to pass, that the mountain of the house of the Lord shall be established in the top of the mountains, and it shall be exalted above the hills; and people shall flow unto it.

Lk 1:32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:

33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.

Matthew 6:33
But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.

Matt 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

Matt 21:43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof. (The new covenant church) Jn 15:1-5

 

[amadeus]

by the holy apostles in the early church

I have nothing against the early apostles, but they too were fallible men. None of them are with us today to provide assistance. There are ministers called and sent by God today, but there are also some who say 'good' words by the wrong spirit.

scripture refers to foreign languages not charismatic babbling

Some are pretenders perhaps, but not all. You may not believe me but I have the gift of tongues from God which I speak everyday. I also have studied both German and Spanish so I understand things from that point of view as well. You should sometimes perhaps simply remain quiet rather than condemning everyone who disagrees with you. I know that some come at you that way at time, but we can never, I believe, confirm that two wrongs makes a right.

"To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven:
...a time to keep silence, and a time to speak;" Ecc 3:1,7

"Then said Pilate unto him, Hearest thou not how many things they witness against thee?
And he answered him to never a word; insomuch that the governor marvelled greatly." Matt 27:13-14

 

[theefaith]

I have nothing against the early apostles, but they too were fallible men. None of them are with us today to provide assistance. There are ministers called and sent by God today, but there are also some who say 'good' words by the wrong spirit.


Some are pretenders perhaps, but not all. You may not believe me but I have the gift of tongues from God which I speak everyday. I also have studied both German and Spanish so I understand things from that point of view as well. You should sometimes perhaps simply remain quiet rather than condemning everyone who disagrees with you. I know that some come at you that way at time, but we can never, I believe, confirm that two wrongs makes a right.

"To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven:
...a time to keep silence, and a time to speak;" Ecc 3:1,7

"Then said Pilate unto him, Hearest thou not how many things they witness against thee?
And he answered him to never a word; insomuch that the governor marvelled greatly." Matt 27:13-14

Then explain these

Jesus Christ continues HIS ministry in His new covenant church thru Peter, the apostles, and their successors with the same mission, power, and authority!
Mt 16:18 Mt 28:19 Acts 1:17 acts 8:31 & 35 acts 9:4 Lk 10:16 Jn 8:32 Jn 13:20 Jn 15:5 Jn 16:13 Jn 20:21-22 eph 2:20 acts 2:42 1 Tim 3:15

Lk 10:16
He who hears you hears me...

John 13:20
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that receiveth whomsoever I send receiveth me; and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me.

Jn 20:21 as my father sent me, so send in you. (The apostles) posses the same power mission and authority as Christ!
Peter, the apostles and their successors!

Christ and His church are one. Acts 9:4 we must be taught by the holy church by the apostles! Matt 28:19-20 Lk 1:4 Lk 24:27 Acts 2:42 Acts 8, eph 4:5 Jude 1:3 thee faith not read scripture and make you’re own faith!

Hebrews 13:17
Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.

God always establishes order in obedience to hierarchical authority of fathers! Heb 13:17

Protestantism is a sin against the Christian virtue of obedience!
(Spiritual anarchy)

If so then Christ is fallible
Christ taught error

no the holy church and apostles cannot teach error Jn 16:13

13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

 

[amadeus]

no it’s what are they teaching?

Fine then you go with the ones who you believe are teaching the Truth. All of us have authority over ourselves to decide which way to go, given to us, I believe, by God. God has all of the Truth. No man of my acquaintance does. You want to say that the Church has all of the Truth, and I might agree with that, but almost without a doubt we would not agree of what the Church is... and perhaps not even on what the Truth is.

thee faith revealed by God in Christ to his church the apostles eph 4:5 Jude 1:3

Again, what is the Church and who are His apostles today? You will say that you know, but then you presume that everyone should simply follow what you say because you are certain that you are right...

So is everyone else certain that they are right...

"Every way of a man is right in his own eyes: but the LORD pondereth the hearts." Prov. 21:2

Follow the way that you will and help anyone who asks you for help or who does not refuse help that you offer, but leave the pondering of the hearts to God.

 

[theefaith]

Fine then you go with the ones who you believe are teaching the Truth. All of us have authority over ourselves to decide which way to go, given to us, I believe, by God. God has all of the Truth. No man of my acquaintance does. You want to say that the Church has all of the Truth, and I might agree with that, but almost without a doubt we would not agree of what the Church is... and perhaps not even on what the Truth is.


Again, what is the Church and who are His apostles today? You will say that you know, but then you presume that everyone should simply follow what you say because you are certain that you are right...

So is everyone else certain that they are right...

"Every way of a man is right in his own eyes: but the LORD pondereth the hearts." Prov. 21:2

Follow the way that you will and help anyone who asks you for help or who does not refuse help that you offer, but leave the pondering of the hearts to God.

Rejection of the church or its teaching is rejection of Christ
Christ and his church are one acts 9:4

Jesus Christ continues HIS ministry in His new covenant church thru Peter, the apostles, and their successors with the same mission, power, and authority!
Mt 16:18 Mt 28:19 Acts 1:17 acts 8:31 & 35 acts 9:4 Lk 10:16 Jn 8:32 Jn 13:20 Jn 15:5 Jn 16:13 Jn 20:21-22 eph 2:20 acts 2:42 1 Tim 3:15

 

[amadeus]

Then explain these

Jesus Christ continues HIS ministry in His new covenant church thru Peter, the apostles, and their successors with the same mission, power, and authority!
Mt 16:18 Mt 28:19 Acts 1:17 acts 8:31 & 35 acts 9:4 Lk 10:16 Jn 8:32 Jn 13:20 Jn 15:5 Jn 16:13 Jn 20:21-22 eph 2:20 acts 2:42 1 Tim 3:15

Lk 10:16
He who hears you hears me...

John 13:20
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that receiveth whomsoever I send receiveth me; and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me.

Jn 20:21 as my father sent me, so send in you. (The apostles) posses the same power mission and authority as Christ!
Peter, the apostles and their successors!

Christ and His church are one. Acts 9:4 we must be taught by the holy church by the apostles! Matt 28:19-20 Lk 1:4 Lk 24:27 Acts 2:42 Acts 8, eph 4:5 Jude 1:3 thee faith not read scripture and make you’re own faith!

Hebrews 13:17
Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.

God always establishes order in obedience to hierarchical authority of fathers! Heb 13:17

Protestantism is a sin against the Christian virtue of obedience!
(Spiritual anarchy)

If so then Christ is fallible
Christ taught error

no the holy church and apostles cannot teach error Jn 16:13

13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

Again you are presuming that you, that is @theefaith are right. Don't tell me it is the Catholic Church teaching you because, if probably all of the ones who call themselves Catholic on this forum would disagree with you along with those you call Protestants. You are pre-Vatican II and they are apostate according to you for following John XXIII and subsequent Popes. In my many years on forums you are only the second one I have met who makes that pre-Vatican II stand. Remember that according to what Apostle Paul wrote, God gives the increase. Are you the only one hearing from God at all here on this forum? Do you alone have all of God's Truth for men? Are your ATs [Absolute Truths] equal in all points with God's Word?

"Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man?
I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase.
So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase." I Cor 3:5-7

I could go through each verse of scripture you listed and tell you what I believe about it. Others have already tried that. They have their ATs and you have your ATs. We all need to be following the lead of the Holy Spirit to encounter and be where God wants us to be at any time. What is an AT to God?

 

[amadeus]

Rejection of the church or its teaching is rejection of Christ
Christ and his church are one acts 9:4

Jesus Christ continues HIS ministry in His new covenant church thru Peter, the apostles, and their successors with the same mission, power, and authority!
Mt 16:18 Mt 28:19 Acts 1:17 acts 8:31 & 35 acts 9:4 Lk 10:16 Jn 8:32 Jn 13:20 Jn 15:5 Jn 16:13 Jn 20:21-22 eph 2:20 acts 2:42 1 Tim 3:15

We have done this already. Stagnant water!