Where do people go when they die?

[Aunty Jane]

i can only go by scripture where the worm dies not . with out using your own reasoning . find a scripture that says we completely burn up no suffering. some teach degrees of Hell in eternal punishment

Where does it say that eternal punishment has to be conscious torment in flames forever?
Ecclesiastes 9:5, 10 indicate that the dead are in Sheol (hades) and that they have no conscious thoughts or activity at all. Solomon even lamented that humans have no advantage over the animals in death...all end up in the same place. (Ecclesiastes 3:19-20)
In the Bible, eternal life is contrasted with eternal death...these are opposites.
In order for God to punish the wicked eternally, he would have to grant them eternal life.....he never says that he will do that. Life without end is for the righteous.....

Incidentally, what worms would they be? What worms can survive in flames and live forever?
This is nonsense. Scripture clears up every question....with no ‘ifs’ or ‘buts’ when you see the big picture and are able to put everything in its place.

“Gehenna” was Jerusalem’ rubbish dump and the fires were kept burning day and night to consume the refuse. Dead things were cast in there...even the bodies of executed criminals who were not considered worthy of a decent burial. What the flames missed, the maggots finished off. “Gehenna” is the symbol for everlasting death, meaning no resurrection. Souls are “destroyed” in Gehenna. (Matthew 10:28) There is no coming back from that place.

Sheol (hades) gives up its dead (Revelation 20:13) so those unrighteousness ones who experience resurrection, have died once....if they sin after their resurrection, they will die again (John 5:28-29) ...this time it will be forever.

yes they did spiritually and eventually physical . it cost them a son who killed his own brother .they was kicked out of the garden. there own son sent away . we get the end results a sin nature .

Yes, they died spiritually, and from that moment, every day separated from God's blessings and the “tree of life” they continued to die (age) a little more, until their bodies could no longer function. At the age of 930, Adam took his last breath.

The legacy left to their children was addressed straight away with God’s first prophesy in Genesis 3:15, but the players and the mystery of this prophesy would last until the coming of the promised Messiah.

The heel wound was delivered...but the fatal head wound is still to come....

 

[Brakelite]

How can a dead person 'go' anywhere?

 

[Brakelite]

Give this a try:






"For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity.
All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again.
Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?" Ecc 3:19-21



"Moreover the Lord will also deliver Israel with you [Saul] into the hand of the Philistines. And tomorrow you and your sons will be with me. The Lord will also deliver the army of Israel into the hand of the Philistines." I Sam 28:19

Not so sure we should take the word of an impersonating demon as to what takes place in the hereafter.

 

[Brakelite]

IF unsaved; The living soul is sent to hell, to wait in torments, for judgement.

Tormented before they are judged? That's about as just as lynching was in the American south in the 40s.

 

[Brakelite]

Although satan seems to have an eternal existence, which I absolutely can’t explain

KJV Ezekiel 28:17-19
17 Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.
18 Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.
19 All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more.

Alright thank you for sharing. You remind me of God breathing the spirit of life into Adam which formed his soul.


“Thus the heavens and the earth, and all the host of them, were finished. And on the seventh day God ended His work which He had done, and He rested on the seventh day from all His work which He had done. Then God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it, because in it He rested from all His work which God had created and made. This is the history of the heavens and the earth when they were created, in the day that the Lord God made the earth and the heavens, before any plant of the field was in the earth and before any herb of the field had grown. For the Lord God had not caused it to rain on the earth, and there was no man to till the ground; but a mist went up from the earth and watered the whole face of the ground. And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭2:1-7‬ ‭NKJV‬‬

God had already formed Adam from the mud, when He breathed into Adam the breath of life, Adam started breathing on his own... He was given life... And thus became a living soul. There wasn't a soul formed within him, and there isn't a soul in us that goes elsewhere when we die. The spirit of life that gave us life returns to Him that gave it, and He gives it again at the resurrection at which time we once again become living souls.

 

[Brakelite]

Something to consider too, is that Jesus told some religious men that it would go better for sodom on the day of judgement than it would for them. If the lake of fire is the end fate of both of them, and the lake of fire is eternal torment, how is it better for sodom if both men are in the same exact torment?

Then also, is the outer darkness the same place as the lake of fire? Could annihilation in the lake of fire be more merciful than the outer darkness which, according to some verses, seems to be forever?
Because it has to be answered - how is it better for sodom than for religious hypocrites? If both are in the same place and same state, how has it gone better for sodom….?

Men think there are two fates and places. But there were 4 directions men could go from the garden and four rivers flowing in different directions. One of those rivers dries up according to prophecy, which would actually still leave 3.

Ever consider that for some, like those of Sodom, punishment isn't as severe as others because they died in the fire sooner, 'according to their works'?
KJV Luke 12:48
48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.

 

[Brakelite]

I have read that those in the first resurrection, the second death cannot harm them. But it says the rest of the dead are resurrected later and go to the second death.
It’s a lot to consider for sure.

It makes more sense of you realize the ones that aren't raised in the first resurrection, are still dead. As one mentioned previously, the meaning of death is paramount. Essentially it is the cessation of life. Hence the need for a resurrection. Why are they resurrected to be condemned later? Because part of their punishment, their anguish, will be in the realization they were wrong, and that their refusal of God's grace and mercy was what finally condemned them... Their unbelief... Not their sins. The resurrection of the unsaved is for the purpose of disclosure, and full and proper hearing before the universe that solidifies and vindicates God's character.

Oh Oh! Another one with annihilationist thoughts! Hmmm?

You do realize and that some people will criticize us and even condemn us for believing anyone might be annihilated instead being made to suffer pain with no end ever?

It's a paradox isn't it... Or is it irony... Or both? That people reject annihilation in favor of eternal suffering because they believe that in eternal suffering justice is met. Yet it never ends, so how could justice be met if it needs to be forever?

 

[Brakelite]

Hello @quietthinker,

Thank you for sharing your own personal view.

If that is something you believe I won’t argue with you. That is between you and God and what you believe the scripture indicate. You are entitled to your own opinion and your own way of believing. No one can live someone else’s faith for them and as believers we are all responsible for ourselves and the things that one may believe. If people desire to look and seek for God in spirit and in truth they are able to grab a Bible and to seek for the truth to be able to see where do people go when they die.

I won’t argue with anyone at least try not to argue with anyone over their own beliefs that they believe by faith, as have already stated my own position many times people can take it or leave it.

What is important is that we all love each other and respect each other’s own view and perspectives, in the spirit of Christ who lives with-in each one of us.

With love in Christ,
Matthew G

In other words you can believe what you like but I'm not going to change mine, even though

This might be wrong you have to check it on me. I do have a book on the essential writings of Josephus however my own mind has bad adhd and sometimes hard for me to submit and read and make work out reading.

I will tell you this though you might have to check it out for yourself nearing the end of Jerusalem and it’s destruction people were in to cannablising and mothers eating their dead.

This was something my teacher emphasized, Christians were getting killed left and right, 1,100,000 people were slaughtered and killed over all the Roman siege of Jerusalem when the temple fell.

It seems the people continued on after Jesus had rose again they continued into worshiping idols and false gods making a mockery of God himself.

Do you remember the parable of the Vineyard?

How the it is God who gave the people land which would be Israel ; and how He sent prophets to warn them but the people there killed the prophets, then He sent his son and they said let’s kill him so we can inherit this land and establish our own kingdom.


what do you think the loaner of the vineyard would do to them?

It was really really bad could you imagine this happening today in America?

Thst depends on how you believe some believe future some believe like myself by faith it’s all done came to pass, that doesn’t mean there is no point to seeking God and having Christ in ones life overcoming the darkness with light and goodness by the Holy Spirit, and spirit of Christ in you.

I would have to disagree with part of this... Yes, cannibalism was rife, stealing people's babies to eat etc, horrific times. But no Christians were killed during the siege because there weren't any there. They had taken heed of Jesus warnings and scarpered prior to Titus"s arrival. They spread to different places such as Antioch and Pella and Asia minor (, modem turkey) where they established and grew previously established churches from the apostles.

 

[MatthewG]

Aha…in the last days, it says, scoffers will come who will say, “where is the promise of His coming?”
Why would they be asking, where is the promise of His coming, unless…it was being preached by some that He was coming? So…should a man be preaching that He already came or should He be preaching that He is coming?

You have to take in consideration who is being written to. Philippians, Colossians, Ephesus,The elected scattered abroad, 7 churches in Asia Minor. No where in the Bible does it say written to those who are in America, or Switzerland, or Netherlands. So the Bible is very specific and those last days were approaching on them when the destruction would fall of Jerusalem.

many people try to make it seem like it for us today.

Like you read the introduction and it is speaking directly to them then. That why context is so very important. However the Bible is useful and beneficial to a persons life. You know that one scripture all of its god breathe and useful for doctrine and what not.

In other words you can believe what you like but I'm not going to change mine, even though

I would have to disagree with part of this... Yes, cannibalism was rife, stealing people's babies to eat etc, horrific times. But no Christians were killed during the siege because there weren't any there. They had taken heed of Jesus warnings and scarpered prior to Titus"s arrival. They spread to different places such as Antioch and Pella and Asia minor (, modem turkey) where they established and grew previously established churches from the apostles.

This is a good point all the elected chosen forknown Christians must had been taken the , If no Christians where taking during the siege however there was the ‘slaughtering of Christians’ before hand by the Beast ie; Nero.

 

[MatthewG]

Going to be dipping out of this thread now though. Time has ran it’s course.


Everyone won’t believe the same thing and everyone lives their life based on according to the knowledge they know and hold. To let you be right in your own mind is sufficient enough for me to not have to worry about what it is you may personally believe and also allow you to have that view and perspective even if sometimes I may not agree.


To let you have it and not argue or demean you is the goal of love for me because all people will be right in their own mind.

With love, may grace and peace be in your heart with and by faith in the Lord Jesus Christ,

Brothers and sisters God is a good God, just and merciful. He is fair and more incomprehensible than we can understand though we can learn about his will and character in the Bible.

My encouragement is trust God rather than man, if you would like to check out secular history about Nero the beast and the siege on Jerusalem that information can be found out, also sea represents gentile nation, and land represents the nation of Israel so that might help you in your conquest of looking at revelation.

My encouragement is to read your bibles, learn Greek words, and to ultimately think for yourself and question everything even things you have been taught in Sunday school church.

Trust God and whatever you do not let the the sin of disbelief enter your heart and hold on to the Lord Jesus by attaching yourself to him by faith.

Matthew G

Ps just like on forum sites or simply going to church most people learn from someone too. And I believe it is a great thing to learn and it would be good thing to question even your own pastor in the things that He may present. Most people do not enjoy challenges because they are difficult and they could cause you to have to change your mind, which is a free choice to do so.

This guy helped me a lot and He also told me to never trust him, however considering he took the time to go verse by verse looking at all the different views from the start of futurist view, literalist view, or idealist view, historicist view, and pretrism view.

It was a good way to start out than complete literalism.

If you can make it to the end of this or skip to the end after he is done teaching you can hear from the audience members there any questions they asked Shawn.

I will share this, like I stated everyone learns something from someone and you don’t gotta trust or believe this guy but he brings forth really good information and he is a brother in Christ like all of you are brothers and sisters in Christ.

Jesus is the one whom we look to in faith, He didn’t die for just me and you, He died for all of the world being resurrected by God on the third day we all believe and live in faith of this notion. So please remember that my friends and love God and love others is what Jesus told us to do.

Take care!

 

[Ezra]

Where does it say that eternal punishment has to be conscious torment in flames forever?

done covered that in the gospels

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

Hello @Webers_Home

So do people go to Sheol?
Sheol is known as (Hades - Hell). As well not to be mixed with the lake of fire.

Is that your position? I’m not sure what you are saying in your post. If you would please will be more clear? Using your own words what it is you believe?

I don’t believe people go to Sheol anymore because Jesus Christ died and went to Sheol and over came it and Sheol - Hell - Hades the covered place for the dead was given up all the souls in it and all were judged in from Noah’s age up to the destruction of Jerusalem in 70ad.

Which leads to the new Heavenly Jerusalem being instated.

Well I disagree with you that the resurrection of the dead has already happened at the time after Jesus was resurrected. I agree that the Only Begotten Son of God Jesus Christ over came Hades and death but the scriptures are very specific at Acts 24:15 that the resurrection of the righteous and unrighteous hadn't happened yet in the Apostles time. 1Thessalonians 4:15 tells us specifically that the resurrection wouldn't be happening until the second presence of the Only Begotten Son Jesus Christ.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

There is a clue in scripture about that too.....

2 Peter 3:8...
“Now, dear friends, do not let this one thing escape your notice, that a single day is like a thousand years with the Lord and a thousand years are like a single day.” (NET)

Look in Genesis and see that not a single human lived to 1000 years old.....so at 930, Adam did die within that “day”.

I do not think that verse is meant to direct us to read in the Bible and replace everywhere we read the word “day” with “1000 years” and replace everywhere we read “1000 years” with the word “day.” The verse is not a super decoder ring, lol.

I think the apostle was trying to get across the point that what seems like a long time to us is not a long time to God, who is eternal.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Sadly it wasn’t my quote………and Matthew G wasn’t keen on starting a thread xx

Lol, poor Rita, you will be answering for having said something you didn’t say for a month!

 

[stunnedbygrace]

KJV Ezekiel 28:17-19
17 Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.
18 Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.
19 All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more.



God had already formed Adam from the mud, when He breathed into Adam the breath of life, Adam started breathing on his own... He was given life... And thus became a living soul. There wasn't a soul formed within him, and there isn't a soul in us that goes elsewhere when we die. The spirit of life that gave us life returns to Him that gave it, and He gives it again at the resurrection at which time we once again become living souls.

Thank you VERY much for that Ezekiel verse!

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Ever consider that for some, like those of Sodom, punishment isn't as severe as others because they died in the fire sooner, 'according to their works'?
KJV Luke 12:48
48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.

I don’t think so.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

It makes more sense of you realize the ones that aren't raised in the first resurrection, are still dead. As one mentioned previously, the meaning of death is paramount. Essentially it is the cessation of life. Hence the need for a resurrection. Why are they resurrected to be condemned later? Because part of their punishment, their anguish, will be in the realization they were wrong, and that their refusal of God's grace and mercy was what finally condemned them... Their unbelief... Not their sins. The resurrection of the unsaved is for the purpose of disclosure, and full and proper hearing before the universe that solidifies and vindicates God's character.

It's a paradox isn't it... Or is it irony... Or both? That people reject annihilation in favor of eternal suffering because they believe that in eternal suffering justice is met. Yet it never ends, so how could justice be met if it needs to be forever?

But it is sooo like humans to hold something against someone and never, ever let them forget it. So sometimes, our “theology” projects our own flawed characteristics onto God.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

You have to take in consideration who is being written to. Philippians, Colossians, Ephesus,The elected scattered abroad, 7 churches in Asia Minor. No where in the Bible does it say written to those who are in America, or Switzerland, or Netherlands. So the Bible is very specific and those last days were approaching on them when the destruction would fall of Jerusalem.

many people try to make it seem like it for us today.

Like you read the introduction and it is speaking directly to them then. That why context is so very important. However the Bible is useful and beneficial to a persons life. You know that one scripture all of its god breathe and useful for doctrine and what not.

That thinking could probably work except that I cannot ignore the problems in any of the end times frameworks/theologies. I can’t fully accept any of them for the fact that each of them, at some point, tries to pound a square peg into a round hole to protect their framework.

 

[MatthewG]

Whatever you wanna believe sister. It’s all totally subjective. It doesn’t make me love anyone less if they don’t understand. @stunnedbygrace

I also don’t see myself as better than others either. All of the people here have a choice to make and as far as I know everyone here believes in the Gospel of Christ.

We walk by faith and not by sight.

 

[Zao is life]

To me the kingdom of Christ is above, and the reign of God is within us by faith because of the spirit of God (Holy spirit) and the Spirit of Christ.

It's a very long subject you've picked, and your post was very long, so I hope you don't mind if mine is too.

I'm only going to speak about those who are in Christ now, and who die in Christ:

1. Christ is with, and in the saints in the world.
2. The saints are with, and in Christ in heaven.

Praying to the Father for His disciples, Jesus said,

John 17:24
Father, I will that they also, whom you have given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which you have given me: for you loved me before the foundation of the world.

"I in them, and You in Me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that You have sent Me and have loved them as You have loved Me." John 17:23

To His disciples, Jesus promised,

John 14
20 At that day all of you shall know that I am in my Father, and all of you in me, and I in you.

Of Christians, the New Testament states:

"(God) hath raised us up together,
and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus"
(Ephesians 2:6)

Ephesians 1:3-4
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
4 According as he has chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love.

John 7
37 And in the last day of the great feast, Jesus stood and cried out, saying, If anyone thirsts, let him come to Me and drink.
38 He who believes on Me, as the Scripture has said, "Out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water."
39 (But He spoke this about the Spirit, which they who believed on Him should receive; for the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.)

Revelation 22
17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come! And let the one hearing say, Come! And let him who is thirsty come. And he willing, let him take of the water of life freely.

Revelation 7
13 And one of the elders answered, saying to me, Who are these who are arrayed in white robes, and from where do they come?
14 And I said to him, Sir, you know. And he said to me, These are the ones who came out of great tribulation and have washed their robes, and have whitened them in the blood of the Lamb.
15 Therefore they are before the throne of God, and they serve Him day and night in His temple. And He sitting on the throne will dwell among them.
16 They will not hunger any more, nor thirst any more, nor will the sun light on them, nor any heat.
17 For the Lamb who is in the midst of the throne will feed them and will lead them to the fountains of living waters. And God will wipe away all tears from their eyes.

WHAT PAUL SAID ABOUT CHRISTIANS WHO SLEEP IN DEATH​

While the apostle Paul was still alive, he wrote to the Christians in Philippi, expressing the desire, concerning these Christians and this church which he established, that he "shall be ashamed in nothing, but as always now Christ shall be magnified in my body with all boldness, whether it is by life or by death."

To which Paul added,

"For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain. But if I live in the flesh, this is the fruit of my labor. Yet I do not know what I shall choose. For I am pressed together by the two: having a desire to depart and to be with Christ, which is far better. But to remain in the flesh is more needful for you." (Philippians 1:20-24).

In another letter, written to a different congregation of Christians in another place, Paul wrote,

"For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.

For indeed in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed with our dwelling-place out of Heaven; if indeed in being clothed, we shall not be found naked.

For we who are in this tabernacle groan, being burdened; inasmuch as we do not wish to be unclothed, but to be clothed, so that the mortal might be swallowed up by the life.

And He who has worked in us for this same thing is God, who also is giving to us the earnest (guarantee) of the (Holy) Spirit. Then being always confident, knowing that while we are at home in the body, we are away from home from the Lord; for we walk by faith, not by sight; then we are confident and we are pleased rather to go away from home out of the body, and to come home to the Lord.

Therefore we are also laboring to be well-pleasing to Him, whether at home or away from home." (2 Corinthians 5:1-9).

RESURRECTION OF THE BODY​

There is a long list of Resurrection verses (click) in the New Testament, all of which speak of one thing, and one thing only - the resurrection of the body from the dead, in the day it is raised a spiritual body. There is no verse in the New Testament talking about resurrection, or being raised, or rising again, that speaks of a "spiritual" resurrection. Spiritual regeneration (by the Spirit of God in the new birth from above) is not "resurrection" in any New Testament verse talking about resurrection, being raised, rising again:

"And not only so, but ourselves also, who have the firstfruit of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, awaiting adoption, the redemption of our body."(Romans 8:23)

until the resurrection of the body, Christians are not found in heaven bodily (the way Jesus is, and the way Enoch and Elijah are) - but Christ is risen.

ABRAHAM'S BOSOM

Jesus' parable of Lazarus and the rich man suggests that those who believed in God and His Word, and who died before the time that Christ died for our sins and rose again from the dead, were found in "Abraham's bosom" after death.

Christ is said to be "in the bosom of the Father" in John 1:18; and He said to those who believe in Him,

"At that day you shall know that I am in My Father, and you in Me, and I in you." John 14;20

And Paul's words tell us that those who are in Christ through faith in Christ (who is the last Adam), will be found in "Christ's bosom" after death, resting and waiting for the resurrection of the body - and He (Christ) is in heaven.