The Black Horse Is Coming Soon
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Zechariah speaks of the 4 horses...
Zechariah 6 (KJV)
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¹ And I turned, and lifted up mine eyes, and looked, and, behold, there came four chariots out from between two mountains; and the mountains were mountains of brass.
² In the first chariot were red horses; and in the second chariot black horses;
³ And in the third chariot white horses; and in the fourth chariot grisled and bay horses.
⁴ Then I answered and said unto the angel that talked with me, What are these, my lord?
⁵ And the angel answered and said unto me, These are the four spirits of the heavens, which go forth from standing before the Lord of all the earth.
⁶ The black horses which are therein go forth into the north country; and the white go forth after them; and the grisled go forth toward the south country.
⁷ And the bay went forth, and sought to go that they might walk to and fro through the earth: and he said, Get you hence, walk to and fro through the earth. So they walked to and fro through the earth.
⁸ Then cried he upon me, and spake unto me, saying, Behold, these that go toward the north country have quieted my spirit in the north country.
So the black horse goes to the north and the white horse follows....interesting.
Ronald D Milam
Active Member
Sorry, up in B'ham getting sone tires put on my car today, so been out of pocket, then I had to spend a couple hours with my 14 year old baby puppy (my baby) who had his 12 stitches taken out Wed. He tries to make out he like don't love me until I stay gone all day, lol.
God gave the book of Revelation to Jesus who gave it to John. The reason it has 1200 ANDS in it is John was shown visions and told things, and he had to write fast and thus AND AND AND. What God did was create a huge ENCODED BOOK which we can decode by using the Old Testament. For instance, Rev. 12 can be decoded by looking up Gen. 37:9 that shows us the Woman is Israel. In Rev. 17 all we have to do is go read Dan. 5 the Mene Mene Tekel story, Babylon fell that very day, when Belshazzar threw a party with his servants and concubines and used the plates and chalices from the Temple of God. The Rev. 17 Harlot is the same story. The Harlot is simply ALL False Religion of all time. The Four Horses come from Zechariah, God just used this imagery to show us what the Anti-Christs rule will be like.
This is when Revelation started clicking with me, after 30 years, about 6-7 years ago when I heard Dr. Ed Hindson (Liberty Prof. of old) say that, and he said out of 404 verses in the book of Revelation, 289 of them had Old Testament verbiage in them, so basically God put together and end time "Unveiling" that we can only use if we know the Old Testament.
We have to dig out the codes to understand the very end.
Good catch there sister on Zechariah.
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Thanks for sharing this...I am going to look this person up and read some more of his stuff.
When I was 24 and started reading the Bible for myself I asked the Holy Spirit where I should begin. He said Proverbs....and the first thing that was revealed to me was wisdom, knowledge and understanding. To even seek it like one looking for hid treasures....
So I ok Lord...I will seek these 3 with the zeal of a gold miner...so throughout my study in Proverbs I would read every cross reference listed to that verse....and then cross reference the crossed referenced verse...lol.
This unlocked a lot of truth in His Word and I gained alot of knowledge, wisdom and understanding over the next year...(yes it took me a year to study Proverbs)...
What was funny to me was when I found the scripture in the NT ...
James 1 (KJV)
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⁵ If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.
⁶ But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed.
⁷ For let not that man think that he shall receive any thing of the Lord.
⁸ A double minded man is unstable in all his ways.
REALLY Lord....all I had to do was ask?
Well later I realized how much of the Bible I had read after studying Proverbs....and could see His wisdom in directing me to start in Proverbs.
Those cross references took me all over the place in His Word. Lol.
Ronald D Milam
Active Member
KEY POINT. Odd you would say this when this is what changed my perceptions on end time Eschatology because of a prayer.
I was called unto End Time Prophecy, I knew this in 1986 when I had a vision, I was running with two small kids from some very evil people. I hid by a house behind some bushes, and at that very moment I head a booming voice from Heaven say "The Man of Sin is Here" and that was all I heard. God did not say the Anti-Christ so as not to confuse a very young Christian, there can be many anti christs but only one Man of Sin. BUT...God had to reaffirm this by showing me Hos visions were true on the short term, this also on the long term. So, I was in this HUGE AUDITORIUM with like maybe 10 people, and Jimmy Swaggart was preaching, within two weeks he had fallen from Grace with a prostitute, so Gd had shown me he was going to lose his audience, thus I understood the other vision was a fast fact. I was not imagining things.
So, 30 some odd years later, about 5 or 6 years ago I was praying, and I said Lord, why is it that you promised to pour out your spirit in these last days, yet we the Church have 100s of understandings of who the Harlot is, what the Beasts are, who the 144,000 are, who the Harlot is (etc. etc.) when we should be in one accord, because the holy spirit only has one answer unto all of these questions and I git this that changed everything for me.
"Ron you guys already know it all"
I knew straight away that God was telling me that "Men's Traditions" were hampering the Church, OUR IDEAS blocked His truths. In other words if a teach a young kid that 2 + 2 = 5 until he is 12 years old, trying to tell him that it is 4 at 13 is going to meet resistance and stunt his training in math. As I thought about it, this is what Jesus said the Pharisees problems were, they had Men's Traditions" which blocked them from understanding the things Jesus was saying, but the Disciples who were unlearned soaked everything up like sponges.
So, I set out on my journey 5 or 6 years ago by starting over and simply asking God in every situation, "Lord, what does this mean" and I refused to moved on unto God gave me the answer, and He has on everything, but I learned a lot of things we thought were truths were just legend, like the 144,000 Super Preachers nowhere in the bible does it say they will preach, it says in Rev. 7 that God tells the Angel to HOLD UP the coming Judgments unto the 144,000 are Sealed (come to God via repentance and thus make it to the Petra/Bozrah area of safety) and then in Rev. 8 God's judgment can then fall. In Rev. 14 we see an Angel takes the gospel unto the whole world. the Church of course is raptured pre trib.
12 = Fulness an d 10 Completeness, so 12 x 12 x 10 x 10 x 10 is God shouting this is ALL Israel who repent. He has saved himself 7000 so how can 7000 and 144,000 both be true? Well, 7 is Divine Completeness, so 7 x 1 x 10 x 10 is also ALL Israel. God has 7 eyes and 7 spirits, means he sees all and is everywhere. The Church of Smyrna had tribulation 10 days (the complete church age in Turkey). The 10 Commandments represent all God's laws. The 10 Kings are not 10, but it represents complete Europe, etc.
Anyway, I figured out all God wants us to do on the books of Ezekiel Revelation, and Daniel etc. is to work real hard and do exactly what we did with the Gospels, simply ASK God, instead of reading other men's books (which is OK, but the final word has t come from God). Once I started doing this it was BANG, BANG, BANG, I started getting everything in a rush. I saw te perfect order of the book of Revelation (BoR) Rev. 1 is Jesus as seen in his glory, Rev. 2 and 3 is the Church Age (the here and now). Rev. 4:1 is the Rapture and everything else the hereafter.
Rev. 4 and 5 is the Raptured Church in Heaven as Jesus gets the scroll. Rev. 6 is Jesus opening the scroll. Rev. 7 is the Jews Fleeing Juda at the 1290 which is 30 days before the Ant-Christ conquers Jerusalem at the 1260. Rev. 8 is when the DOTL starts. Rev. 9 is the first two woes. Then Rev. 16 (15&16 go together really) then Ends it all via the 7th Vial.
Rev. 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 17 18 and most of 19 all cover the exact same timeframe as Rev. 8, 9 and 16's forty two months of linear judgments. They are parenthetical citation chapters, Rev. 14 and 19 cover the full 7 years, in Rev. 14:14 we see a flashback to the pre trib rapture, and in Rev. 19 we see the raptured church marrying Jesus.
Yes, indeed study that period, its very, very key, Antiochus, Jason and Onias III. Also read about the European Neighborhood Policy. Here s the thing look.....Well, I will make it easy for you.
Roman Empire circa 117
Notice how unlike Greece, Babylon or Persia Rome ruled over every square inch of the Mediterranean Sea Region !! And all of Europe I might add. Now lets look at a map today's Europe and the MANY Nations she currently has "Agreements" with, whom Dan. 11:40-43 says will be conquered, Israel Egypt and the whole region. Thus we COMBINE the map and guess what, it looks just like "Papa" on a map.
Ad in Turkey, because Dan. 8:9 says he conquers towards the East also. Its the Mortal Wound healed in Rev. 13. Israel joins the E.U. that defies God's commands and sets things in motion.
God Bless.
Ronald D Milam
Active Member
Glad to understand your views now I understand why you quit replying, you were in essence just dodging someone who you could never out debate on the merits. I made a blog on this 5 or 6 years ago, most of this understanding is from Dr. Tommy Ice so I take no overall credit on the thesis, but of course its my put together blog on the subject, after all God is the giver of all knowledge to start with. I always know what I am speaking of, I put in hours upon end on my blogs and on my Exegesis Reports which I come out with.
MY BLOG FROM 5 YEARS AGO.
Is the Falling Away a False Teaching?
I have evolved with much study on this. I used to argue to all that there had to be this great "Falling Away" also, as many still do today. All because of this one passage in2 Thessalonians 2:3. I do agree that the world gets far more evil towards the (now) end, as foretold in Romans chapter 1, and as Peter said, there will be scoffers in the last days etc. etc. But I do not think the true Church can “Fall Away”, either you are of Christ/God or you are not, and will get left behind by the bridegroom. Anyway, here is my understanding after much study on 2 Thessalonians 2:3.
“Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction…” – 2 Thessalonians 2:3 (NASB) This verse is used by many and they say it implies a “Falling Away” from the faith. But a guy named Tommy Ice has shed some exceptional light on this passage.
Mr. Ice has pointed out that the Greek noun, apostasia, is used only twice in the New Testament. The other occurrence is in Acts 21:21 where it states that an accusation was made against Paul that he was “teaching all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake [apostasia] Moses.”
The word is used in verb form a total of 15 times in the New Testament, and only three of these have anything to do with a departure from the faith (Luke 8:13, 1 Timothy 4:1, and Hebrews 3:12). In other settings, the word is used for departing from iniquity (2 Timothy 2:19), departing from ungodly men (1 Timothy 6:5), departing from the temple (Luke 2:27), departing from the body (2 Corinthians 12:8), and departing from persons (Acts 12:10 and Luke 4:13).
This insight about the use and meaning of the word was certainly compelling, but the argument Mr. Ice presented that was most convicting was his revelation that the first seven English translations of the Bible rendered the noun, apostasia, as either “departure” or “departing.”
They were as follows:
1.The Wycliffe Bible (1384)
2.The Tyndale Bible (1526)
3. The Coverdale Bible (1535)
4. The Cranmer Bible (1539)
5. The Great Bible (1540)
6. The Beeches Bible (1576)
7. The Geneva Bible (1608)
Mr. Ice also noted that the Bible used by the Western world from 400 AD to the 1500s — Jerome’s Latin translation known as “The Vulgate” — rendered apostasia with the Latin word, discessio, which means “departure.” The first translation of the word to mean apostasy in an English Bible did not occur until 1611 when the King James Version was issued. So, why did the King James translators introduce a completely new rendering of the word as “falling away”? The best guess is that they were taking a stab at the "false teachings of Catholicism".
One other point Mr. Ice made that I think is significant is that Paul used a definite article with the word apostasia. The significance of this is emphasized by Daniel Davey in a thesis he wrote for the Detroit Baptist Theological Seminary:
Since the Greek language does not need an article to make the noun definite, it becomes clear that with the usage of the article, reference is being made to something in particular. In 2 Thessalonians 2:3 the word apostasia is prefaced by the definite article which means that Paul is pointing to a particular type of departure clearly known to the Thessalonian church.
In light of this grammatical point, Tommy observed that “the use of the definite article would support the notion that Paul spoke of a clear, discernible notion.” And that notion he had already identified in verse 1 when he stated that he was writing about “our gathering together to Him [Jesus].” This interpretation also corresponds to the point that Paul makes in verses 6 and 7 where he states that the man of lawlessness will not come until what “restrains” him “is taken out of the way.”
And what it is that restrains evil in the world today? The Holy Spirit working through the Church. I think when the Church Departs, the Anti-Christ will be free to come to power.
I do not think this has anything to do with a "Falling Away" [from the faith]. It is the Church Departing before the Anti-Christ is brought forth. The King James Bible changed the known understanding that has been around for 1500 some odd years.
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You may or may not agree with my points/arguments etc. (everyone has a right to be wrong I guess) but making an argument that I am clueless and do not know what I am talking about brother is just not a winning point of emphasis.
I take on all comers on debates because God wants people to know His truths and gives us the sword of His word/spirit/truth. Others duck and hide and only seek out those they don't get any push back on, that is no fun to me, I love teaching, but I also love proving those wrong who think they are never wrong. And I never lose debates, because I rely on God's sword of truth.
So, many people duck/dodge/hide etc. But on judgment day all that will be gone brother, there will be no hiding from truths then, so I see the time as know to get educated by the Holy Spirit, not the time to say I know everything and there is no reproving of me to be done, the difference is I let God reprove me every day. Now go check all of those facts, you will see it does mean Departure in reality.
God Bless.
No, and I stopped reading here. I have more important things to be doing right now than squabbling with a pompous... individual who has very little spiritual perception.
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Davy
Well-Known Member
We are already in the Seals. The 3rd Seal about the balances and penny for wheat and penny barley are COMMERCE and INFLATION expressions. We've been in that Seal ever since the globalists took over the world's economies with central banking and controlling the money supply, causing inflation, recessions and depressions (remember the crash of 1929?). That causes famines too. The 2nd Seal is about a war horse. And that Seal causes famines and pestilences also. And earthquakes in divers places have been going on for decades now. All those things are about what Jesus called the "beginning of sorrows" in His Olivet discourse. And the Rev.6 Seals parallel the Signs Jesus gave in His Olivet discourse. The majority of today's Churches are not covering Christ's Signs in His Olivet discourse.
Ronald D Milam
Active Member
Great Christian attitude, cursing on a Christian Message Board and attacking a brother because he can prove in scriptures everything you say is just not correct. Just like your theory that I couldn't prove that Falling Away was really a Departure, I did just that though didn't I ? I don't fall for the good ole boy theories like the Pharisees and others do. Try studying harder brother, and asking God instead of going by what you hear from other men, I found that men mostly lead us astray, but God never leads us down wrong paths.
God Bless
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Ronald D Milam
Active Member
Not so, Jesus gave us they key and we refuse to look at it.
Rev. 1:4 John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne;
Rev. 1:19 Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;
So, Jesus was the THINGS which you have seen, Jesus in al of his risen glory, the things WHICH ARE is the Church Age seen in Rev. 2 and 3 and the things which will be HEREAFTER can only mean after the Church Age period, that is why we get this verse in Rev. 4:1
Rev. 4:1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven
RAPTURE) and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet(Last Trump which ends the Harvest/Church age) talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.So, everything after this must be AFTER the Rapture, not before !! We can even see the Church by looking back to Rev. 2 and 3 in Rev. 4:4, its right there !!
Rev. 4:4 And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.
So, can we understand this is the Church in Heaven after the Rapture? Yes, by looking back to the promises made unto the Church in Rev. 2 and 3. Its literally that simple, people overthink this tbh.
Rev. 2:10 Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.
Rev. 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.
Rev. 3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.
So, everything in Rev. 4:4 SHOUTS this is my Raptured Church who OVERCAME !! They sit at my throne, they have on white raiment/robes and they have on crowns of gold/life.
The 24 Elders are akin to the 24 Orders of the Priesthood seen in 1 Chronicles 24.
The Divisions of Priests
1 Chronicles 24:1 These were the divisions of the descendants of Aaron: (Skip to the end)
18 the twenty-third to Delaiah and the twenty-fourth to Maaziah.
19 This was their appointed order of ministering when they entered the temple of the Lord, according to the regulations prescribed for them by their ancestor Aaron, as the Lord, the God of Israel, had commanded him.
So, the 24 Elders is God telling us these ate his Priesthood in Heaven, how do we know that? He calls us this in Rev. 5:9-10.
Rev. 5:9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.
The 24 Elders is more symbology by God, we are the Priesthood now so its facts also, but God uses symbols to relate this unto us in the book of Revelation. This proves we are in Heaven BEFORE Jesus ever starts opening the Seals in Rev. 6. Thus we are Raptured before the 70th week begins.
So, is the church in Heaven brother? NO.......So no seals have yet to have been opened.
God Bless.
The Light
Well-Known Member
When we realize that the seals are the 70th week of Daniel, and realize that the 70th week of Daniel is about the people of Daniel, it becomes obvious that the seals are not opened.
The beginning of sorrows is right around the corner. Have you seen wars and rumors of wars, the beginning of famines which start with food shortages, pestilence? Have you seen the plan-demic?
Luke 21
28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
Luke 21
36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.
Best to escape the things that will come to pass.
Seen any earthquakes? You are about to....
Hi @Heart2Soul I love chapter 8 of Proverbs which speaks of wisdom personified; and seems to tie in with 1 Corinthians 1.30: "But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption"
Davy
Well-Known Member
Daniel's people INCLUDE the scattered tribes of Israel. And the ten northern tribes of Israel NEVER returned to Jerusalem as a people, but are still scattered among the nations to this day, but are as many as the sands of the sea, and stars of the sky. Just so happens, MANY of them makeup probably the largest portion of Christ's Church today. And a good portion of Christians today are converted Jews too! What else you obviously do not know in God's Word, is how all that was Old Testament prophesy that would happen involving Christ's Church.
So you cannot just 'try' to separate the Daniel prophecies from Christ's Church, nor Christ's Olivet discourse. It's the false prophets among the false Pre-trib Rapture school that tries to get you to do that. And what's truly funny about those, they often directly quote from the Book of Daniel and Christ's Olivet discourse involving the Christian Church! So why listen to those charlatans?
Nope, we're already in the "beginning of sorrows". The Seals have started. And yeah, I have seen earthquakes in various places, famines in Africa, kingdom against kingdom, wars and rumors of wars, AND pestilences (like AIDS, West Nile virus, Bird Flu, Covid 19, etc.). Just because most of us in the West haven't been 'as'... exposed to those things doesn't mean they haven't started already. One would have to live in a bubble to not recognize that (as many in the West actually do live in a bubble).
Quoting from the Luke 21 version doesn't cover what all Jesus did in the other two Matthew 24 and Mark 13 versions about the "beginning of sorrows" time. That Luke 21 Scripture you quote IS NOT even about the "beginning of sorrows" timing!
The Light
Well-Known Member
Exactly. This is the seed of the woman that we see in Rev 12
Rev 12
17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
Those Jews still have their blindness. It will not be removed until the fullness of the Gentiles comes in. That of course will happen in the pre 70th week rapture of the Church.
Rom 11
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
Please quote chapter and verse...IF you are able.
It appears that you are ignorant of the mystery that blindness in part is happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles comes in.
It appears that you don't realize that the beginning of sorrows are the four horsemen of the Apocalypse. The seals are not opened and will not be until the fullness of the Gentiles comes in.
You only think that because you don't understand that the seals are not opened yet. After the fullness of the Gentiles comes in at the pre 70th week rapture of the Church blindness will be removed from part of Israel as God will regraft the 12 tribes. The fig tree has two harvests. There will be two raptures. One like the days of Noah as Noah is in the ark 7 days before the flood. The Lord Himself will come for his first bride.
1 Thes 4
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
This coming will happen at the trump of God, or voice of God.
The second will be like the days of Lot, where the very day Lot left Sodom, destruction came. In this coming, HE will send His angels.
Matthew 24
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
This coming will occur at the Last trump.
Jacob had two brides.
Davy
Well-Known Member
You have misunderstood Paul in Romans 11. Paul did NOT include the 'believing' Jews like himself as still being under that blindness. Not all Jews are blinded to The Gospel, and having believed are among the election according to grace that Paul mentioned at the first.
If you don't know about God scattering the majority of the children of Israel per Old Testament history (1 Kings 11 thru 2 Kings 17 and Ezra), then how are you going to understand Books like Hosea which was written ONLY about and to the northern ten tribe kingdom of the "house of Israel"? Apostle Paul quoted from Hosea when preaching to believing Gentiles at Rome (Romans 9), yet the Book of Hosea wasn't even written to Gentiles originally. Hosea reveals what God would do with the ten scattered tribes of Israel after they had been scattered among the Gentiles. By Paul quoting from Hosea to Gentile believers in Rome, it revealed the ten scattered tribes of Israel involved in the Gospel of Jesus Christ while scattered among the Gentiles. Even Lord Jesus said He was not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel, which the "house of Israel" label after Solomon's day meant only the ten northern tribes of Israel. This is why Paul was prevented from taking The Gospel to the far east like he wanted to. The Gospel had to first go to where the majority of the house of Israel was scattered to, and that was in Asia Minor and Europe.
Pop Christianity does not teach accurate Bible doctrine about the children of Israel, even wrongly calling all Israelites by the name Jews. The Jews per history only involved those who made up the southern "kingdom of Judah" (3 tribes of Judah, Benjamin, and Levi) in the southern lands at Judea-Jerusalem. The ten northern tribes of Israel never were known as Jews (this per the Jewish historian Josephus who lived in 100 A.D.).
Anyone who read and understood what I wrote above would laugh at your statement. You show you don't understand who the Romans 11 election according to grace that Paul showed is about.
You keep diggin' yourself into a deeper hole with those false assumptions. It is only the UNBELIEVING Jews that Paul pointed to that are still 'blinded' away from The Gospel, NOT the election according to grace which God preserved.
Not at all. What I said about you quoting from Luke 21 is true, and shows you don't understand what you quoted, which was a Scripture that is about the day of God's vengeance on the final day of this world, and NOT about the tribulation timing. On that day of God's vengeance, that will END the "great tribulation" by the wicked. All the Seals will have been completed by that day.
That is major BALONEY above. There is NO such thing as pre-trib rapture written of in God's Word. In the Matthew 24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27 Scripture, Jesus revealed His coming to gather His saints will be AFTER... the tribulation of those days. You instead say that happens PRIOR to the tribulation which is following a FALSE doctrine from men. Thus you are not to be trusted with teaching Bible, for you go against it.
Nor do you even understand what Paul taught in 1 Thessalonians 4, because it agrees perfectly with what Jesus said in Matthew 24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27 about the day of His coming to gather the Church AFTER... the tribulation.
In 1 Thessalonians 4, Paul taught to not worry about the 'asleep' saints, because Jesus will bring them with Him when He comes. That means He brings those FROM Heaven, and that aligns with Matthew 24:31. And then those of us still alive on earth are "caught up" to Jesus at that same time, which aligns with Mark 13:27. Thus Paul was teaching what Lord Jesus taught about His coming to gather His saints per His Olivet discourse. And there Jesus gave the timing WHEN that gathering would happen, AFTER THE TRIBULATION.
Matt 24:29-31
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
KJV
So your two comings idea from men's doctrines (John Darby in 1830s Great Britain), is NOT WRITTEN ANYWHERE IN GOD'S WORD. It is a total FABRICATION by men.
There is only ONE more coming of Lord Jesus Christ, and it will be on the LAST DAY of this present world like God's Word says as written. And that... is when He gathers His FAITHFUL CHURCH that listens to Him in His Word, instead of man. You simply don't understand just how deceived you actually are with following doctrines of men, or... maybe you do realize it, and push the false pre-trib rapture theory ON PURPOSE?
The Light
Well-Known Member
No, I didn't misunderstand Paul. Sure there were Jews that accepted the Gospel. The early Church was Jews as Jesus was sent to the Jews. But they did not accept him...for the most part. You yourself quoted the verse that says they will be like the sands of the sea. You seem to want to toss out the baby with the bathwater.
I am fully aware of this. And I am fully aware of this verse in Hosea.
Hosea 9
10 I found Israel like grapes in the wilderness; I saw your fathers as the firstripe in the fig tree at her first time: but they went to Baalpeor, and separated themselves unto that shame; and their abominations were according as they loved.
This means God saw the fathers of Israel as the first fruits of the first harvest. But since they served other Gods, they would no longer be the first harvest. There is only one other on earth beside Jews, and that would be Gentiles. The fig tree has two harvests and the Gentiles will become the 1st harvest. The Jews will be the second harvest.
This is certainly not news to me. However, when Hitler went after the Jews in Germany, what tribe did he go after? Was it the tribe of Judah? Or all the tribes of Israel. Sometimes we just need to keep things in context.
Yeah, and then anyone who read my comment about Hitler and the Jews would quickly get a dose of common sense.
I'm going to assume that God will keep His word and the Jews will become the second harvest. We saw in Hosea 9 that God saw the fathers of the Jews as the first fruits of the first harvest. But they served other Gods and the Gentiles will become the 1st harvest. Now in Revelation we see that we have the first fruits of the 12 tribes of Israel and they are before the throne. That means that there will be a harvest of the twelve tribes of Israel. And it is not dependent on you and others understanding it to make it so.
Rev 14
3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.
4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.
The great tribulation is not over when the 7 seals are complete. The great tribulation will be over with the coming of Jesus at the 6th seal.
Yeah. Nice job of pinpointing when He will send His angels to gather his saints FROM HEAVEN AND EARTH. The gathering will occur at the last trump.
Mark 13
27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.
Now you need to grasp the part about Him coming when you think not. You need to understand the THE LORD HIMSELF will come for His bride, the Church, at the trump of God or voice of God. There is a difference between the Him sending His Angels for the gathering from heaven and earth and the Lord Himself coming for His bride.
Noah was in the ark 7 days before the flood for a reason, just as the Church will be in heaven during the 70th week of Daniel, which is the seals if you don't understand that.
The Light
Well-Known Member
How is it that you are unable to understand that the tribulation if OVER at the 6th seal? There it is, cut and dried, IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE TRIBULATION we have the cosmic signs of the sun, moon and stars. THAT OCCURS AT THE 6TH SEAL, not at the 7th trumpet of God's wrath.
If you could force yourself to put things where God says they go, you might gain understanding.
Matthew 24
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Rev 6
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
I never heard of John Nelson Darby when I understood that the Lord is coming when you think not. Do you think that the Word is not true?
Actually, Jesus comes for His bride, the Church, before the 70th week of Daniel because the Jews served other God's. The Jews will be the second harvest which we see at the 6th seal when Jesus sends His angels to gather His elect from heaven and earth. Then of course Jesus will come with His armies from heaven and Armageddon will occur. That makes 3 coming of Jesus. I don't think that John Nelson Darby got that, do you?
Ronald D Milam
Active Member
There are no Lost Tribes, there were SEED LEFT in Jerusalem from every tribe, I find it utterly confusing how you guys can conflate every issue by not thinking it through. People from te Northern Kingdom who hated their wickedness moved to Judah, men from Judah who loved wickedness moved to the Northern Kingdom. In Ezekiel 37 he stated that God would make one nation out o two, via the Two Sticks Prophecy.
There has never been any lost tribes because seed from every tribe always live in Judah. If I have 10 brothers and they all get killed in a plane crash but I have 8 children is my dads SEED LOST? No, it continues in his one son and their kids, likewise, those people toted away did not STOP THE SEED of the Norther Tribes because each tribe had men living in Jerusalem/Judah. Think these things through, quit following men like Herbert Armstrong who put this bogus stuff out there many years ago. Armstrong was off the deep end tbh.
The 144,000 have seed from every tribe, 3-5 million people get saved.
Timtofly
Well-Known Member
The Second Coming and rapture are the 5th and 6th Seal. Of course the fulness of the Gentiles ends with the first 4 Seals. This is a thief in the night experience. Why would the whole world and most of the church think there would be instant recognition leading up to the moment of the Second Coming?
Davy
Well-Known Member
Obviously you don't have a clue what I'm talking about, revealing your lack of Bible study. The 'as many as the sands of the sea and stars of the sky' applies MORE to the ten tribes of Israel that made up the MAJORITY of Israelites, than it does about Jews of the "house of Judah" (only the 3 tribes of Judah, Benjamin, and Levi). IF... you had read your Old Testament history, you would have known this. But instead, just like I also said, most Churches are confused with calling all Israelites Jews, like you do, showing they have not done their homework in the Old Testament histories either.
Aware of what? You failed to even mention the portion of Hosea that Apostle Paul quoted in Romans 9 to Gentile believers on Christ! You SKIRTED what God actually showed through Hosea about Christ's Church!
Hos 1:10
10 Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered; and it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, 'Ye are not My people', there it shall be said unto them, 'Ye are the sons of the living God.'
KJV
Who is meant by that "children of Israel" there? NOT the Jews, for God sent Hosea to warn the TEN NORTHERN TRIBE KINGDOM OF ISRAEL, not the Jews of the southern kingdom. It was to the ten northern tribes of Israel that God called Lo-ammi (not My people) in Hosea 1:9, NOT the Jews of the southern kingdom!
Once again...
JEWS in Hosea' day = southern "kingdom of Judah" in the southern holy land at Judea-Jerusalem. Made up of ONLY the 3 tribes of Judah, Benjamin, and Levi. These also were called the "house of Judah" after God split old Israel into two separate kingdoms in Solomon's day (1 Kings 11 forward).
ISRAEL = northern "kingdom of ISRAEL" in the northern holy lands, north of Judea, with its capital city at Samaria under Jeroboam, king of Israel, from the tribe of Ephraim! This kingdom was called the "house of Israel", and made up of the tribes of Ephraim, Manasseh, Gad, Reuben, Simeon, Issachar, Asher, Naphtali, Zebulun, and Dan. NONE OF THESE WERE KNOWN AS JEWS.
It was the ten tribe northern "kingdom of Israel" that God was speaking about to Hosea in the above Hosea 1:10 verse, NOT the "kingdom of Judah" or Jews.
Yeah, it IS ALL NEW to you; you are only agreeing in part so as to try... and hide your Biblical ignorance about Gods split of the two houses of the children of Israel, and His specific prophecies to each separate house. You tried to show the Hosea prophecy was written about the Jews, when it was not, but was written originally ONLY to the ten northern tribe "house of Israel". You no doubt even try to claim the "house of Israel" means Jews, just because you are ignorant of the difference in God's Word. But you don't fool me, because I have studied prophecy about both houses, and easily know when someone else has not.
That is why you try to bring in the subject of Hitler's day which is TOTALLY IRRELEVANT TO THE PROPHECY IN THE BOOK OF HOSEA. You don't know the prophecy, so you have to look for other points to try and establish which actually have nothing to do with this subject of God splitting Israel into two separate kingdoms and scattering the ten northern tribes first apart from the Jews.
Just another vain attempt to change the subject, revealing your Biblical ignorance of the Hosea-Romans matter.
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