Why Argue Against Doing the Law?

[1stCenturyLady]

@1stCenturyLady Romans 8.9 says that 'if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of His'.

Yes. Keeping the letter of the law is not enough.

 

[quietthinker]

Yes. Keeping the letter of the law is not enough.

are tattoos part of the deal?

 

[1stCenturyLady]

are tattoos part of the deal?

The first tattoos were for honoring the dead, or something along those lines. Its in the OT, Leviticus 19:28. Many tats today are for the same reason. It wasn't allowed in the Jewish law. It wasn't even fashionable when I was younger, nor would I have gotten one due to that scripture, though I did finally get my ears pierced to please my husband. Now my skin is two thin to get a scripture tat, which I wouldn't mind. Probably 1 John 3:23-24. And I don't mind shots and needles. I kinda like it.

 

[Brakelite]

@1stCenturyLady Romans 8.9 says that 'if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of His'.

So true. Clearly anyone who observers the Sabbath and recommends it to others could not possibly be filled with the holy Spirit.

 

[BarneyFife]

Yes. Keeping the letter of the law is not enough.

It's a good start, though.

 

[BarneyFife]

95% of today's church activities would continue if the Holy Spirit were removed from us...

In the early church 95% of all her activities would have stopped if the Holy Spirit were removed.

Billy Graham

 

[BarneyFife]

The fact that the law of God is attacked from every side is proof that His Spirit has been grieved away from us.

John 4:23 KJV: But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.

John 15:26 KJV: But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:

John 16:8 KJV: And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

Romans 7:7 KJV: What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

John 14:17 KJV: Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

1 John 4:6 KJV: We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.

Romans 7:14 KJV: For we know that the law is spiritual...​

The growth of the church today is not stunted because of an over-emphasis on obedience. The spirit of rebellion has usurped the Spirit of Truth and has succeeded in infiltrating the church beyond the adversary's wildest dreams while we argue over what law is. What a wonderful deception has been perpetrated on the body of Christ! The voice that warns of coming judgment on disobedience is like one crying in the wilderness. It is faintly heard and the crier is to be beheaded by the king of Christianity as was the Baptist reformer by Herod.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Because they misread how the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life, and falsely conclude keeping the letter of the law is death.

The letter kills because of the deceptiveness of sin. We know that to have anger in our heart is to have murdered already. Yet we insist we’ve never murdered and do not murder. If I think I haven’t broken that law, I will not ask for help, I don’t think I need help there. But if I see that I murder often, I will either ask for the help I need Or I will insist that the law is for the outside of my cup, when it’s not the outside of my cup that sin originates from. It’s what comes out of a man that defiles him.

 

[BarneyFife]

The letter kills because of the deceptiveness of sin. We know that to have anger in our heart is to have murdered already. Yet we insist we’ve never murdered and do not murder. If I think I haven’t broken that law, I will not ask for help, I don’t think I need help there. But if I see that I murder often, I will either ask for the help I need Or I will insist that the law is for the outside of my cup, when it’s not the outside of my cup that sin originates from. It’s what comes out of a man that defiles him.

The letter kills only when it is the made to be the means of justification.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

The letter kills only when it is the made to be the means of justification.

Mmm…I don’t think I agree…I think because of the deceitfulness of sin, the letter always kills and does not bring life.

 

[FHII]

The letter kills only when it is the made to be the means of justification.

#stunnedbygrace may not have liked it, but I like that short statement (no offense by any means to her). It sums up what I was trying to say earlier in a much shorter fashion.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

It’s the being deceived part of deceiving and being deceived that’s gets you.

 

[Brakelite]

It’s the being deceived part of deceiving and being deceived that’s gets you.

I would suggest the opposite.
Was Paul being deceived when the law said to him, thou shalt not covet? Previous to the law speaking to him, Paul was deceived into thinking he was innocent of lust, but with the law came revelation, not deception.
KJV Romans 7:7-9
7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.
9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

I would suggest the opposite.
Was Paul being deceived when the law said to him, thou shalt not covet? Previous to the law speaking to him, Paul was deceived into thinking he was innocent of lust, but with the law came revelation, not deception.
KJV Romans 7:7-9
7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.
9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.

The law is spiritual and good. That was never in question. Sin deceitfully uses the law to bring about death and all while convincing the man he is keeping the law. If I never shoot you but I mutter and grudge in my heart against you and say I’ve always kept the law to not murder, I do not understand the law and am deceived.

 

[FHII]

It’s the being deceived part of deceiving and being deceived that’s gets you.

I'm gonna need a flow chart for that one!

It reminds me of this:

"Crazy people don't know they are crazy, but I know I'm crazy, so I am not crazy! Isn't that crazy?"

 

[BarneyFife]

Mmm…I don’t think I agree…I think because of the deceitfulness of sin, the letter always kills and does not bring life.

Agreement is highly overrated.

 

[Brakelite]

The problem @stunnedbygrace you will have is that when you manage to overcome this penchant you have for murdering people "in the spirit", you will still need to be obeying the letter. Will it still kill you then?

 

[quietthinker]

I wonder how God feels about all the pontificating he's been privy to over the last millennia? ...or maybe we don't care?
One thing is certain, he still lets his sun (son) shine on the good and bad alike.
How much longer will humanity put up with it before we eclipse it totally with our....dare I say it.....pontificating?

 

[stunnedbygrace]

The problem @stunnedbygrace you will have is that when you manage to overcome this penchant you have for murdering people "in the spirit", you will still need to be obeying the letter. Will it still kill you then?

Well, the good news is I have stopped. He killed my passions over a year ago now.

There is no problem after that because if the inside of the cup is clean the outside is as well. There IS no law against the spirit. If He makes you law abiding inside, you have truly kept the law. And to murder according to the letter, you have to do so inwardly first. It is what comes out of you that defiles you. The law is spiritual and good. The words He gave us are spirit and truth.

 

[David in NJ]

Christians argue about the law of God in a way in which the Jews never did.

Jews may have obeyed or transgressed the law, and debated points of law, but they never argued about whether the law ought to be kept and obeyed.

But Christians actually argue about whether to keep the law of God or not, and some even go so far as to argue against keeping the law, as though doing the law were a sin against grace: they demonize the law and doing the law of Christ as becoming enemies of grace and the cross of Christ.

Why is that?

For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified. (Rom 1)

But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves. (James 1)

The law of God is the word of God written plainly in Scripture: no Christian argues against being doers of the word, so why argue against being doers of the law?

Because they misread how the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life, and falsely conclude keeping the letter of the law is death.

The foolish argument is about whether to be doers of the law and word, and the right argument is about how the letter of the law kills without the Spirit:

Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life. (2 Cor 6)

How can the letter of the law kill, when it is the same life giving Spirit who gives us the letter of the law in Scripture?

Scripture here is speaking of the letter as opposed to the Spirit, which is the letter only without the Spirit.

Keeping the letter of the law only, without the Spirit, is death and not life in Christ Jesus.

Even as faith only is dead without works, so the letter only is dead without the Spirit.

But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness. Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone. (Rom 9)

The letter in Scripture kills, when it is obeyed as it were by law on paper only, and not by law of God written in the heart with the Spirit.

To obey the letter only without the heart is still death of the soul, for only by obeying the letter from the heart by grace through faith is there righteousness, life, and peace with God.

And since the letter of the law of Christ written in Scripture is the law written in our hearts and minds, then no man can be disobeying the letter on paper, and yet be doing the law from the heart.

Unlike the unbelieving Jews that were dead by letter only, Christians are to keep the letter of the law and do it well by grace through faith.

The Jews erred by seeking the righteousness of the law only, without faith, and Christians err by seeking righteousness by faith only, without the law.

Christians ought to do the righteousness of God, without leaving the letter of His law undone:

Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

And God forbid Christians should seek to abolish the law of Christ altogether as written, which even the unbelieving Jews never dared to do.

The law of God is not without the Spirit, and the Spirit of God is not without His law:

There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

Making oneself do the letter of the law only kills the spirit, and making oneself spiritual without the letter of the law only kills righteousness.

A.) The Law is death to man who is UNABLE to keep it, just as the Word declares it to be.
B.) The Word was God before the world existed = in case you have forgotten this Truth.
C.) The Law was our Tutor to bring us to Messiah.
D.) Now that the WORD has appeared and kept His word to us = we are no longer under the Law/Tutor.
E.) the Holy Spirit keeps the Law of Christ alive in our hearts/spirit.
F.) Going back to the Law is seeking to establish your own righteousness before God.
G.) Only those who are led by the Holy Spirit are the true Sons of God
H.) HalleluYAH and AMEN to all of the above, by the Word of Elohim.