For those who think Christ is not God.

[Waiting on him]

James 1:18 KJV
[18] Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.
All began, first century.

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

And then I'm sure you can explain your answer as to why YOU think it is rubbish, or maybe you do not need to think as all the nearly other 2.65+billion as you say won't or cannot either. And then how is your statement meaningful to me and not said as a dig or a sly remark ? Well you can now entertain me if you wish and explain to me why this teaching IS NOT rubbish. Can you do this is the real question? I'm all ears and eyes Ron. I have my doubts though because I believe you really do not care about the subject that much as I do.

Well, You did not offer a detailed critique yourself, you just claimed it was rubbish because you did not agree with the bold statements that he clearly backed up. The 2.65 billion have faith in God: the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, they don't have to prove it to you. Your remark was sly and a dig and not constructive either, so I gave it back to you the same way you dished it out.
You want to be entertained?

The "Deity of Christ, Part 1" by Phil Fernandez summarized by me:

“ looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus,” Titus 2:13
>>>Do you see something there equating God and the Savior? Maybe you can, maybe not?

“Simon Peter, a bond-servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who have received a faith of the same kind as ours, by the righteousness of our God and Savior, Jesus Christ:” 2 Peter 1:1
>>OH my, another referrence as God. Shall you search all the various translations to find something contrary?

“Be on guard for yourselves and for all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood.” Acts 20:28
>> The Father did not purchase with His blood, The Holy Spirit didn't either. Let's see, who's left???

“Thomas answered and said to Him, ‘My Lord and my God!’” John 20:28

“Behold, the virgin shall be with child and shall bear a Son, and they shall call His name Immanuel,” which translated means, “God with us.” Matthew 1:23
>>> Jesus had many titles: The WORD, the Bread of Life, The Way, The Truth and the Life, the Good Shepherd, the Doorway, the Resurrection and the Life, the Alpha and the Omega, the Vine, the Light of the World, the I AM (an introduction He gave to Moses of all the I am's in the Book of John).

“For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through Him and for Him. He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together. Colossians” 1:16-17
>>>Jesus is the Creator!

“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.” John 1:1
>>> This plainly states, Jesus was in the Beginning, Jesus was with God and Jesus is God.

“And the Word became flesh, and a]"> dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of b]">[b]the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth.” John 1:14
>>>God became flesh, pretty straight forward, if you didn't quite catch on to the first verse!

But of the Son He says, “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever,
And the righteous scepter is the scepter of His kingdom. Hebrews 1:8
>>> Did you get that? The Father addresses the Son as GOD! H E L L O!

Jesus accepted worship on varous occasions. Angels are forbidden to receive worship, only God is worshipped. God will not have any gods before Him. Therefore, Jesus is God.

He forgave sins – only god can forgive sins.

He called Himself the I AM, (Yahweh). Implying He was the one who spoke to Moses.

He called Himself SAVIOR, when it clearly says in the OT that God alone is Savior and there is no other.

He is the Bridegroom of Israel. The OT says God is the Bridegroom.

He claimed to be LORD of the Sabbath, when God alone created and set apart the Sabbath.

Are you entertained?

 

[face2face]

Jesus IS God. He is the Word and was in at the beginning. He spoke the word and it was created.

John 1:1-4
The Word Became Flesh
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning. 3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4 In him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind.

So how do people argue against that?

God did not become dying flesh.
The Logos of God has always been.
It became flesh and was manifested in an obedient Son.
By Logos all things including Heaven, Earth, Jesus, you and I are created - Jesus had a beginning and an end!
Did you not know where Jesus got his "life" from = John 5:26
Jesus did not exist before Matthew 1:18

It's all a wonder as per 1 Timothy 3:16

So then...

If Jesus was God why did he need to be vindicated by the Spirit? If indeed he is God? God has no need to vindicate Himself. If Jesus was in need of being justified and made right in Yahweh's sight, what was wrong about Jesus that he needed vindication?

 

[Truther]

No, that's not what I think.

We're really not hitting any kind of a stride in this conversation, I feel like I'm spinning my wheels, and that's not really interesting to me.

Much love!

Let's try this...

The Spirit(God) took on flesh?

 

[Cristo Rei]

Well QT I'm glad you brought up context. This is a valid point and then these questions of his (@Cristo Rei - Cristo's) from scripture should be viewed always from the proper local and macro context. I agree 100%. So when can we start to do this work?

Context for scripture is woefully lacking on this site. Scripture is usually just chucked out en masse without any explanation or context. It's the shotgun effect or its blast, or throwing things up on the wall hoping something will stick. That is what I usually get as a response to many of my posts.

How about starting off with the Garden of Gethsemane scripture when Christ was praying to his Father? What is the local and surrounding context of these passages? Who is the subject, who is the object? Why did Christ weep and became very sad on the heels of his glory he wished and hoped to have, promised to him by his Father? What does it say about Christ? He was human, with a human nature, not a Father God nature, although his Father spoke 'into' him all the time since his birth as with his angels.

Im tired of this debate major...
I try to simplify my questions so that a 12 year old can understand it and I want an answer that a 12 year old can comprehend, but the response is always the same.
They do everything to ignore my questions.
They dismiss the actions of Christ and what God actually said (this is my son) without even giving a reason.
They quote passages that have nothing to do with my questions.
They dismiss my "human rationale" and replace it with their rationale.
And I don't even touch on the fact that the trinity never gets mentioned in the bible, that it's all a creation of the RCC and has pagan roots cos i know someone will just blow up and have a hissy fit.

Can't be stuffed with it

Another thing that baffles me is this. The RCC can't even explain the trinity and they invented it. They call it a mystery. Yet these people claim to understand the trinity using their own knowledge... Ye sure.

And then there are the people that say God told them... Ye sure. I believe that is using the Lord's name in vain, for your own self.

 

[Truther]

You apparently did not teach the things I think about this. If you are thinking my ideas are lockstep to what yours were, I think that is mistaken. If what you are doing is reimagining my posts to read as you used to think, and responding to that, well, maybe that helps me understand some of your posts.

Much love!

I taught hypostatic union doctrine like you do.

I know all the lingo.

I even used to quote Hal Lindsey about a naturalist that had to become an ant and yet remain a man when a big bulldozer was coming to destroy the anthill and decimate them....

I taught that stuff to churches, etc.

The God/man doctrine was my specialty.

I messed alot of folks up in those decades.

Good thing people forget doctrinal stuff over time and just love Jesus.

 

[Truther]

Good luck with that thinking.

I will only go as far as saying that Christ was as a descent of Judah through Mary and then this is only significant and is counted as the physical seed of Israel (as a promise of Abraham for a temporary purpose) of those who were credited with righteousness under the Law. Christ is still the spiritual seed of the promise of Abraham else we today could not have his spirit...he became a quickening spirit for us.

Romans 8
11 And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies because of his Spirit who lives in you. (NIV)

Bless you as we both search with the spirit of truth for answers

For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.

 

[Cristo Rei]

The 2.65 billion have faith in God: the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, they don't have to prove it to you

Now there is an honest answer...
Faith.
You don't have proof.
You have faith.
This I understand.

Trying to explain the trinity when not even it's creator in the RCC can explain it is futile to say the least. Grasping at straws really given the fact the God said "this is my son" and that Jesus often prayed and spoke to God.

So faith is your response.
No rational explanation.
Faith.

 

[quietthinker]

Im tired of this debate major...
I try to simplify my questions so that a 12 year old can understand it and I want an answer that a 12 year old can comprehend, but the response is always the same.
They do everything to ignore my questions.
They dismiss the actions of Christ and what God actually said (this is my son) without even giving a reason.
They quote passages that have nothing to do with my questions.
They dismiss my "human rationale" and replace it with their rationale.
And I don't even touch on the fact that the trinity never gets mentioned in the bible, that it's all a creation of the RCC and has pagan roots cos i know someone will just blow up and have a hissy fit.

Can't be stuffed with it

Another thing that baffles me is this. The RCC can't even explain the trinity and they invented it. They call it a mystery. Yet these people claim to understand the trinity using their own knowledge... Ye sure.

And then there are the people that say God told them... Ye sure. I believe that is using the Lord's name in vain, for your own self.

Silence no doubt is prudent in this situation. Those unable to hear identify the inability to hear by accusations.

 

[Brakelite]

The genre of the speech. And the harmony with the rest of the Bible.

John 17:3-7 KJV
3) And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
4) I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.
5) And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
6) I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.
7) Now they have known that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee.

What about the other statements Jesus made?

Is eternal life knowing God? Did Jesus glorify the Father on the earth? Did Jesus finish His work? Did Jesus manifest the Father's Name? Yes, to all of these.

Much love!

Allow me to add something more to this regarding the connection between glory and the name of God.
KJV Exodus 33:18
18 And he (Moses) said, I beseech thee, shew me thy glory.
19 And he (The LORD) said, I will make all my goodness pass before thee, and I will proclaim the name of the LORD before thee; and will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will shew mercy on whom I will shew mercy.
KJV Exodus 34:6-7
6 And the LORD passed by before him, and proclaimed, The LORD, The LORD God, merciful and gracious, longsuffering, and abundant in goodness and truth,
7 Keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, and that will by no means clear the guilty; visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the children's children, unto the third and to the fourth generation.

God's glory is His character, His name a reflection of that character. "I have manifested Thy name..". I have revealed Thy true character to the world. We glorify God by doing the same... By being clothed with the righteousness of Christ.


.

.

 

[Brakelite]

No way!

When was Jesus EVER in fear for His life?

Hebrews 9:26 KJV
For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.

Hebrews 10:5-10 KJV
5) Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:
6) In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.
7) Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.
8) Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;
9) Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.
10) By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

Jesus came for the express purpose of offering His body in sacrifice on our behalf. He came to do the Father's will, and that will is that we be sanctified through the offering of Jesus' body in death.

However, He did not want to suffer the outrageous abuses that were to be heaped upon Him, the stark evidence of His love for us as He endured all of it.

Much love!

I would like to suggest that what Jesus feared was the result of the world's sin being placed upon Him, and His Father finding it so repulsive Jesus would never see Him again. At the end just before Calvary, Jesus had to die the same death as us in order to be a true propitiation. That death had to be one without hope. Without a clear picture of the resurrection. He certainly had how of the resurrection days prior, but in the garden, as the sins of the world were being laid upon Him, hope diminished... His love for us however compelled Him to go through with it anyway, despite having the power and authority to call it quits, return to the Father, and be fully justified in doing so. What love! Sacrificing even His own eternal existence that we may have life. Puts in context those times when first Moses, then Paul, offered their eternal life if it meant Israel could be forgiven.

 

[Brakelite]

This is not in the Bible.

Much love!

KJV Romans 9:7-8
7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

 

[Brakelite]

You have to find other scripture that can support such a claim for starters

KJV John 6:53-64
53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.
54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
55 For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.
56 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.
57 As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me.
58 This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever.
59 These things said he in the synagogue, as he taught in Capernaum.
60 Many therefore of his disciples, when they had heard this, said, This is an hard saying; who can hear it?
61 When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you?
62 What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?
63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
64 But there are some of you that believe not.

 

[Brakelite]

As I see it, the whole Jesus exercise, if we can call it that, is to show first hand, without an intermediary the character of God, ie, how he is wired at his core.

His condescension and humiliation, reveals this. His whole journey among us from his conception through to Gethsemane and Calvary are windows into the heart of God which I think neither the Devil or other watching intelligences were expecting......ie, that the Creator of all that exists would empty himself to the point of allowing his creatures to murder him. It left them gob smacked so to speak.....it elevated God's heart in the understanding of the Universe to a level of adoration previously unknown.

Revelation 7:12 describes their response:-
“Amen! 1Praise and 2glory and 3wisdom and 4thanks and 5honour and 6power and 7strength be to our God for ever and ever. Amen!”

It is in our interest to not understate this in our understanding.....to not gloss over it and take it for granted.

I have numbered and highlighted the expressions that are used.....yes, 7. as an interesting aside. Is this coincidental?.....I think not....but thats another story.

And reducing the divinity of Jesus to mere human, or an angel, destroys that whole paradigm that truly encapsulated the true character of God Himself... Self sacrificing love.

 

[Brakelite]

I agree. But is your son human, presuming you have a son? So if you being corrupted by 6000 years of degeneration, are still able to beget someone after your own kind, why cannot God being perfect, beget someone after His own unique kind... God?

Angels and men are created beings. As created beings they are children in that sense. We lost our familial relationship when we, through sin, gave our allegiance to Satan. He became the father of mankind, which is why we need to be born again in order to be adopted back into the family of God.
Jesus is not a created being. He is the Creator of all things. His Sonship to His Father is as natural as your children are too you. We are not told how this came about. Nor are we told how the Godhead of Father Son and Spirit are one and how they exist together. That the Father and Son are separate personal beings there can be no doubt. But somehow they form one God. That is what scripture reveals, and I do not want to go further into speculation how that is. It is what it is. We don't have to understand it.

They do everything to ignore my questions.
They dismiss the actions of Christ and what God actually said (this is my son) without even giving a reason.

 

[Johann]

I guess I missed this question of yours.

This expression 'before the world existed' is not as accurate as 'before the foundation of the world' as used in other many translations. And this means stunningly to most, before the creation of the first man and not the universe or the earth. The 'world' in this expression means the world of mankind and not the earth. See what happens when we try using a modern view in scripture as being plain jane. We get all twisted up.

It pertained here to the plan of God in existence before the 1st Adam, period. And this plan included Yahshua the Messiah the Christ to be born at a specific point in time and perform specific tasks for our salvation. He was and still is the centerpiece and the image of God in love for us and creation.

Christ said in John 17:5 .'..the glory he had before the foundation of the world' This idiom and expression means that Christ knew that in his Fathers' plan of our restoration to himself, he was (he had) to be glorified at the earthly exit of his mission, after he was created ('came down from heaven' as in created by the HS, another idiom that I've already defined in this commentary) and yes @Johann as you asked marks to ask me, the Son was created as I already said.

Christ was NOT saying he was there when the Father's plan of restoration was set into motion at all.

And to your specific question. There are other scripture that use 'before the foundation of the world' (people) as the secret plan of God:

Ephesians 1:3-6, 2:10 (prepared before hand); Matthew 13:35, 25: 34-40; 1 Peter 1:19-20; Rev 13:8; John 17:24; Hebrews 4:3

Guess it would be futile to give you scripture re the eternal co-equality and eternal co existence as the eternal Huios of God?
Was Jesus a creation?
The Son of God was present at the creation which proves He existed before it occurred (Genesis 1:27 note the plural “Let us”)

This you would "reason" away APAK.

You see, I take the literal approach to Scriptures whereas you take the allegorical approach.

I have seen the "debate" between you and marks
your Unitarism and Christadelphian viewpoint so nothing new there.

When was Christ "created" APAK?

 

[Johann]

Gods creation began in the first century with His first born Christ Jesus.

Incorrect..and lets leave it there.
Christ Jesus was never "created" He is the Creator..
J.

 

[Johann]

and yes @Johann as you asked marks to ask me, the Son was created as I already said.

No, the Son was never "created" He is/haya with the Father in Gen 1.1

You place Jesus on the same level with the created angels.
J.

 

[Johann]

Sister.

Oh my!
I'm so sorry sister for calling you a brother!
J.

 

[Johann]

When was Christ born?


Colossians 1:15 KJV
[15] Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:


First century.

You seriously need to compare scripture WITH scripture..
J.