Spotting Heretics

[Brakelite]

Is there no one here who is capable of arbitrating as I defend myself, and the faith of my brothers and sisters for 2000 years?

The peace you seek is to be between you and Jesus. Not between you and your church. The greater apostasy took place before creation: what has been taking place since then is merely a symptom of the greater controversy. The question isn't, which church shall I allow to lead me... But who, Christ or Satan?

And what if God places men over us who abuse their position ? Is non serviam ever the answer?

It is the only answer if after you go to those men with evidence of their apostasy from truth, and they refuse to hear you, beating you, killing you, lying about your testimony and your motives before tribunals and kings, then continue the lie for 400 centuries after having cast you out.

 

[Philip James]

Question. Why should I become a Catholic?
Seriously. Let's pretend we're face to face and I'm looking for something to believe about God and the reason for living and this world.

And I ask you that question. How would you answer so to lead me to that church?

Thanks for your answer if you share one.

Hello Blue Dragonfly,

Jesus waits for you at every celebration of the Eucharist to intimately unite Himself with you and you with Him and the entire communion of the saints.


Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him on the last day.

For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink.

Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me and I in him.

You too! Are welcome to come to the wedding Feast of the Lamb of God!

Pax et Bonum

 

[Jim B]

Hello Blue Dragonfly,

Jesus waits for you at every celebration of the Eucharist to intimately unite Himself with you and you with Him and the entire communion of the saints.


Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him on the last day.

For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink.

Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me and I in him.

You too! Are welcome to come to the wedding Feast of the Lamb of God!

Pax et Bonum

How can Jesus wait for you at every celebration of the Eucharist? Doesn't He have to come down from the cross first?

 

[Philip James]

. Your blind obstinate faith in apostolic succession has blinded you to the apostasy and sin of that same succession.

Ah brother,
All this time and still you dont know me?
My faith is not blind. Neither is it in apostolic succession, but rather in Christ and His promises to His Church and in the power of the Holy Spirit.

That which is belived, practiced and taught by the whole apostolic Church, everywhere, is clearly the teaching of the apostles..

I know you have issues with the Church in Rome, but if you truly believe they fell into apostasy in 600 AD or so, then you should be at the feast with Alexandria..
If you reject them as well,
Who else is there?

If the whole Church, everywhere fell into apostasy then Christ's promises have failed and he is proven to be a false prophet..

But Alleluia! That has NOT happened and indeed, she has grown and filled the whole world in fulfillment of scripture, and now truly one can say with Malachi:

For from the rising of the sun, even to its setting, my name is great among the nations; And everywhere they bring sacrifice to my name, and a pure offering; For great is my name among the nations, says the LORD of hosts.

There are no other contenders, only the sacrifice of the Eucharist can fulfill this..

Pax et Bonum

 

[Jim B]

Ah brother,
All this time and still you dont know me?
My faith is not blind. Neither is it in apostolic succession, but rather in Christ and His promises to His Church and in the power of the Holy Spirit.

That which is belived, practiced and taught by the whole apostolic Church, everywhere, is clearly the teaching of the apostles..

I know you have issues with the Church in Rome, but if you truly believe they fell into apostasy in 600 AD or so, then you should be at the feast with Alexandria..
If you reject them as well,
Who else is there?

If the whole Church, everywhere fell into apostasy then Christ's promises have failed and he is proven to be a false prophet..

But Alleluia! That has NOT happened and indeed, she has grown and filled the whole world in fulfillment of scripture, and now truly one can say with Malachi:

For from the rising of the sun, even to its setting, my name is great among the nations; And everywhere they bring sacrifice to my name, and a pure offering; For great is my name among the nations, says the LORD of hosts.

There are no other contenders, only the sacrifice of the Eucharist can fulfill this..

Pax et Bonum

Why do you distort Scripture? Here is the verse you quoted above ... from Malachi, an Old Testament prophet: “I wish that one of you would close the temple doors, so that you no longer would light useless fires on my altar. I am not pleased with you,” says the Lord of Heaven’s Armies, “and I will no longer accept an offering from you. For from the east to the west my name will be great among the nations. Incense and pure offerings will be offered in my name everywhere, for my name will be great among the nations,” says the Lord of Heaven’s Armies." Malachi 1:10-11

Incense and pure offerings are not the eucharist. The eucharist is a celebratory meal celebrating Christ, symbolically sharing His body and blood when He was ALIVE, NOT dead on the cross as you depict Him.

 

[Brakelite]

That which is belived, practiced and taught by the whole apostolic Church, everywhere, is clearly the teaching of the apostles..

Merit of Treasury was taught by the apostles?
Praying to dead people was taught by the apostles?
Sunday sacredness was taught by the apostles?

Alexandria

There were numerous Christian churches throughout Asia and Europe who taught and practises scripture without needing the support of the armies of secular pagan state powers to "share" the gospel.

 

[Wrangler]

one common denominator is that they do not believe that Jesus or God = keeps them saved.

So, a heretic is a function of rejecting the OSAS doctrine?

 

[Philip James]

There were numerous Christian churches throughout Asia and Europe who taught and practises scripture without needing the support of the armies of secular pagan state powers to "share" the gospel.

When did Alexandria rely on the state?

As for leaders and kings submitting their whole nations to serve Christ and His Church?

Oh and merits of the treasury?

Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I am filling up what is lacking in the afflictions of Christ on behalf of his body, which is the church,

Yes we can offer our sufferings for the aid of brothers and sisters..

Pax et Bonum

 

[Philip James]

There were numerous Christian churches throughout Asia and Europe who taught and practises scripture without needing the support of the armies of secular pagan state powers to "share" the gospel.

And where are these comminities that have rejected the Sacraments and the authority of their bishops today?

Where were they in 100 ad 200 ad.. 500 ad...

The Truth does not change..

'every planting not of My Father will be uprooted'

Pax et Bonum

 

[Brakelite]

And where are these comminities that have rejected the Sacraments and the authority of their bishops today?

Where were they in 100 ad 200 ad.. 500 ad...

The Truth does not change..

'every planting not of My Father will be uprooted'

Pax et Bonum

The ones that weren't destroyed by Islam or Rome, morphed into the reformation churches.

As for leaders and kings submitting their whole nations to serve Christ and His Church?

Like Clovis? Philip II of Spain? This pantheism guy...


Or this guy...

 

[heartwashed]

-
Heretics, wherever they are found... should be taken seriously as being deceived by the Devil.

Spotting them is very easy.
As.....Every Heretic will believe that they can lose their salvation, as that is THE deception that is found in them all.
Some have really crazy Theology, but, the one common denominator is that they do not believe that Jesus or God = keeps them saved.

So, reader, when you dont believe that Jesus keeps you saved, HIMSELF< or GOD, HIMSELF< then what is left for you to believe that gets you into heaven?
What is it?

THINK !!!!!

Its YOURSELF.....trying to do something.... And that can be..."im holding unto my faith".. or "im keeping commandments", or
"I joined the one true Church".... Or..."im enduring to the end". "My salvation is all about ME ME ME ME doing something, vs, only trusting in Christ to get me to heaven" = which is the REAL FAITH.

See all that? ??
That is YOU Trusting YOU....as you dont TRUST CHRIST or God To get you into heaven, if you are a heretic.
What does that literally mean?
It means your faith is wrong, or broken. And Paul says you are "fallen from GRACE"<... "bewitched"...and "In the Flesh".
It means that Jesus is off the Cross, and YOU are up there on it, as your FAITH.

So, what is the worst thing about heretics as found on a Forum?
Its the fact that they can ruin your faith for life, and most especially the faith of a New Christian.
"christian" forums are deadly regarding a New Believer's Faith.
And that, is the one thing that the Devil wants..
He wants a new Christian to be FAITH DESTROYED, and then their entire life is nothing but nothing for God.

See, if you have a head full of theology and can teach it, then that is actually harmful unless what you teach is based on your correct understanding of the Grace of God as the BLOOD ATONEMENT, that is the foundation of your FAITH.
And when you are trying to keep yourself SAVED, and trying not to go to hell, then that is THE proof that you have no real faith in Christ.
Its gone, or was never there to begin with.

Hello @Behold,

May I ask you what you do with the following verses?

Heb 3:12, Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.
Heb 3:13, But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.
Heb 3:14, For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;

Jas 1:14, But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
Jas 1:15, Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.
Jas 1:16, Do not err, my beloved brethren.

I don't think that I am a heretic for hearkening to them and heeding them as a warning and exhortation!

 

[Philip James]

The ones that weren't destroyed by Islam or Rome, morphed into the reformation churches.

Dear Brakelite,

If they were destroyed, then clearly theyre not the planting of the Father and did not fulfill Jesus prophecy..

If they 'morphed' pne should be able to identify their community down through the ages..

If they left the community of the apostles and established their own community, the condemnation of the apostle John applies..

So ill ask again, where is the 2000 year old apostolic community that rejects the Sacraments?

Pax et Bonum

 

[Brakelite]

If they were destroyed, then clearly theyre not the planting of the Father and did not fulfill Jesus prophecy..

So all the martyrs were abandoned by Jesus?

If they left the community of the apostles and established their own community, the condemnation of the apostle John applies..

They were direct descendants from the apostles, having the scriptures in their purest form, copied and translated into their own languages. Churches not associated with Rome, nor derived from it. They didn't reject the sacraments, they simply didn't know anything of them except for following their Master's instructions... Teaching all that Christ did, baptizing in His name. And all through the love and power of Christ and His Spirit, spread the gospel from Asia minor to Britain, from the middle east to the far east and beyond. Study your history. Catholicism only had authority over certain jurisdictions, and over the years used pagan armies to 'spread the gospel' such as Clovis of the Franks and the eastern emperor's army of Belisarius. Although the Papacy sought to hide and destroy those churches when later it began to encroach into their space such as the Celtic church in Britain and the Thomas Christians in India, and even the Waldenses on Rome's own footsteps, there is enough evidence of their existence if you have the hunger to look.

 

[Marymog]

They are to take the matter before the sum total of believers in the congregation, and if they still do not acknowledge their offending behavior he is to be treated by the church as a pagan or tax collector. What's so hard about this for you to understand?

Oh goodness Ferris......The passage says "SIN" not "offending behavior" as you have suggested. Maybe you like to misquote or add to Scripture but I don't. Why are you changing Scripture?

2nd off, let's go with your "sum total of believers in the congregation" theory. Is that done by majority vote? If 51% agree that the person SINNED (not offended the other person) against his fellow believer, THEN they can be treated as a pagan or tax collector? Sooooo the 49% that say that he didn't are THEY are to be treated as a pagan/tax collector since they have no problem with the sin of 1 who was judged by the 51%? There goes 49% of your church....gone in one vote! Can you not see how your theory is not based on Scripture OR logic?

Also, Scripture makes it clear that we are to obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls! Soooooooo, how does that passage work with your sum total of believers in the congregation theory? It doesn't. Your theory suggest that if 51% of the congregation agree on something then that means they rule over me and they are watching out for my soul; the 49% are not watching out for my soul and don't rule over me. What your men have taught you is false! What's so hard about this for you to understand?

 

[Marymog]

Here's the context. Where is having different doctrinal beliefs in all this????

10See that you do not look down on any of these little ones. For I tell you that their angels in heaven always see the face of My Father in heaven.b12What do you think? If a man has a hundred sheep and one of them goes astray, will he not leave the ninety-nine on the hills and go out to search for the one that is lost? 13And if he finds it, truly I tell you, he rejoices more over that one sheep than over the ninety-nine that did not go astray. 14In the same way, your Father in heaven is not willing that any of these little ones should perish.

15If your brother sins against you,c go and confront him privately. If he listens to you, you have won your brother over. 16But if he will not listen, take one or two others along, so that ‘every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.’d 17If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church. And if he refuses to listen even to the church, regard him as you would a pagan or a tax collector.18Truly I tell you, whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.

19Again, I tell you truly that if two of you on the earth agree about anything you ask for, it will be done for you by My Father in heaven. 20For where two or three gather together in My name, there am I with them.”

21Then Peter came to Jesus and asked, “Lord, how many times shall I forgive my brother who sins against me? Up to seven times?”22Jesus answered, “I tell you, not just seven times, but seventy-seven times!e Matthew 18:10-22​

I see where it talks about the person who sins against you in the passage we were discussing (Matthew 18:15-17). But I'm not seeing anything here about doctrinal differences. Let's face it MOG, you are wrong. This proves what I've been saying: 1) people in the church have differing levels of knowledge (you did not know this passage has nothing to do with doctrinal differences), and 2) having an erroneous doctrinal belief doesn't automatically make you a liar, but perhaps just someone who doesn't know something someone else does. That's why I asked you if you were lying about the passage or just unknowledgeable about the passage. I asked so you'd see that.

I am going to make this real simple for you Ferris since you are at an early stage in learning Scripture: If a person is ex-communicated from The Church for committing a SIN, even though in their reaiding of Scripture it is not a SIN, then there is CLEARLY a doctrinal difference. What's so hard about this for you to understand?

 

[Marymog]

No...that is not at all what I meant. But, per usual, you are showing yourself to be beyond a reasonable ability emotionally and too charged up to have a rational discussion. So, I will elaborate, but if you are serious about settling on the truth, you will have to show a considerable amount more calm.

The departure of the church occurred in direct proportion to Christ's words regarding Him coming "quickly" and that those things relevant to His coming (again) would "shortly come to pass." Which is to say, false teachers (just as Peter foretold) came "quickly" into the church, and the warning of Christ against the "evil servant" did "shortly come to pass." "For with the same measure that you use, it will be measured back to you.”

But since you also brought up your pet peeve of the Reformation...No, I was not excluding them. They too did likewise, also preaching that "My master is delaying his coming." Luke 12:45

As for divisions--did you think that, "Do not think that I came to bring peace on earth. I did not come to bring peace but a sword" and "My strength is made perfect in weakness", actually meant...unity? The apostle Paul at least was hopeful enough to say that the differences were as the differences of the many members of one body. Which, of course, was God's plan all along, giving [different] gifts to men...pardon me, to mankind.

But I am not being one sided as you are refer to the history of the church in division and taking your own side, but rather I have reconciled not in part, but all that is written and promised.​

Scott, Scott, Scott. For a man who wrote a book, you are not book smart.

The Church DID NOT depart from the teachings of Christ and the Apostles. SOME men did....but The Church did not. The TRUTH did not stop being taught. Some men started teaching OPPOSITE of what The Church was teaching, and those false teachers tickled the ears of other men....but THE TRUTH has been taught by The Church for 2,000 years.

So if you were to be honest and truly represent what Scripture says your sentence would say; The departure of some of the men in the church occurred in direct proportion to Christ's words regarding Him coming "quickly" and that those things relevant to His coming (again) would "shortly come to pass." Which is to say, some false teachers (just as Peter foretold) came "quickly" into the church, and the warning of Christ against the "evil servant" did "shortly come to pass."

Keeping it real...Mary

 

[Ferris Bueller]

Oh goodness Ferris......The passage says "SIN" not "offending behavior" as you have suggested. Maybe you like to misquote or add to Scripture but I don't. Why are you changing Scripture?

2nd off, let's go with your "sum total of believers in the congregation" theory. Is that done by majority vote? If 51% agree that the person SINNED (not offended the other person) against his fellow believer, THEN they can be treated as a pagan or tax collector? Sooooo the 49% that say that he didn't are THEY are to be treated as a pagan/tax collector since they have no problem with the sin of 1 who was judged by the 51%? There goes 49% of your church....gone in one vote! Can you not see how your theory is not based on Scripture OR logic?

Also, Scripture makes it clear that we are to obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls! Soooooooo, how does that passage work with your sum total of believers in the congregation theory? It doesn't. Your theory suggest that if 51% of the congregation agree on something then that means they rule over me and they are watching out for my soul; the 49% are not watching out for my soul and don't rule over me. What your men have taught you is false! What's so hard about this for you to understand?

Lol, you're trying so hard not to appear wrong. I'm betting that you're a narcissist.

If you're just going to change what I say so you can demean it in order to give the appearance that you are superior (very important to the narcissist), how are you ever going to learn anything?

 

[Ferris Bueller]

I am going to make this real simple for you Ferris since you are at an early stage in learning Scripture: If a person is ex-communicated from The Church for committing a SIN, even though in their reaiding of Scripture it is not a SIN, then there is CLEARLY a doctrinal difference. What's so hard about this for you to understand?

The passage is not about doctrinal differences, lol.

 

[Marymog]

The passage is not about doctrinal differences, lol.

If you think you didn't commit a SIN (what you call an offending behavior, but Scripture doesn't) and the church says you did commit a SIN and you disagree with the decision of the church (what you call the sum totals of all believers) then what is that Ferris? By your own admitance CLEARLY you are at odds with a majority of the church. That IS a DIFFERENCE in doctrine.

YOU have read Scripture and think Scripture does not consider what you did a SIN. The 'sum of all believers' read Scripture and they say it is a sin THAT is a doctrinal difference.

Doctrine defined: a principle or position or the body of principles in a branch of knowledge or system of belief

Doctrine is a TRUTH taught by the church. Dance around it all you want Ferris....You are dancing alone!

 

[Marymog]

Lol, you're trying so hard not to appear wrong. I'm betting that you're a narcissist.

If you're just going to change what I say so you can demean it in order to give the appearance that you are superior (very important to the narcissist), how are you ever going to learn anything?

I didn't change what you said Ferris. I quoted what you said. And when a person starts name calling and lying about what was said it is evidence they are wrong.....but to embarrassed or PRIDEFUL to admit it.