The founding fathers of modern-day Premillennialism were heretics.
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Ad hominem is a big joke to you. But insults and offense are who you are and what you do.
Randy Kluth
Well-Known Member
These are some of the best arguments Amils have against Premil, namely the idea that at Christ's 2nd Coming 2 resurrections take place, the resurrection of the righteous and the resurrection of the wicked. That leaves no place for the 2nd resurrection of the wicked to take place at a later time.
Rev 20.12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books.
At the 2nd Coming, Antichrist is judged and the righteous are delivered. These are two judgments. The Antichrist is thrown directly, at that time, into the Lake of Fire. For me, the Lake of Fire is a means of disposing people from earth's new paradise. It is the start of an everlasting exile from the "Promised Land."
Rev 19.20 But the beast was captured, and with it the false prophet who had performed the signs on its behalf. With these signs he had deluded those who had received the mark of the beast and worshiped its image. The two of them were thrown alive into the fiery lake of burning sulfur.
However, even though Antichrist and his False Prophet are sent to the Lake of Fire at the 2nd Coming, we are told that other wicked people are kept in the grave until after a thousand years, when they also will be sent, together with the grave, into the Lake of Fire.
Where do these people come from, who were kept in the grave after Antichrist was defeated and himself thrown into the Lake of Fire?
Matt 25.31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.
Again, at Christ's 2nd Coming sheep and goats are separated in all nations. What is the basis of this separation? Is it judgment? Is it sentencing? Is it disposal or the exile of the wicked? I don't know. But it takes place at the 2nd Coming, apparently.
Dan 12.1 There will be a time of distress such as has not happened from the beginning of nations until then. But at that time your people—everyone whose name is found written in the book—will be delivered. 2 Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt.
Again, this sounds as if a dual resurrection takes place at the 2nd Coming. It seems in conflict with Rev 20, which separates the dual resurrections by a thousand years. Whether the thousand years is to be taken symbolically or not, it creates a seeming inconsistency unless there is another answer. My own belief is that the 2nd Coming here represents the entire thousand year period, allegorical or not, by which his Kingdom brings about this dual resurrection, whether they take place at different times in the Kingdom Age or not.
2 Thes 1.8 He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9 They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might 10 on the day he comes to be glorified in his holy people.
This is less bothersome for me as a Premil because we know that at Christ's 2nd Coming he will destroy Antichrist and the world that follows him. It will be a wide-spread judgment, which does not require that those who are destroyed be immediately sentenced to eternal death. There may be a difference between the time they die and the time they are sentenced.
But I don't know if when they die they go immediately into the Lake of Fire or not? They certainly are sent into the Grave, or Hades, which is itself thrown into the Lake of Fire at the end of the Millennium.
John 5.25 Very truly I tell you, a time is coming and has now come when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God and those who hear will live. 26 For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son also to have life in himself. 27 And he has given him authority to judge because he is the Son of Man.
28 “Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice 29 and come out—those who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned."
I don't know whether the language here suggests there can be a different "time" or "hour" in which the dual resurrections can take place? The Greek sense of an "hour," at that time, was used by the Jews less like a 24 hour clock, and more like a varying period of time.
The Apostle John said, "It is the last hour," which did not at all refer to a literal hour of time as we know it. So it expresses the last period of time. So in either case, the dual resurrection of righteous and wicked may have their own "last period of time," or may share the same "last period of time" without contradiction.
Just being honest. Amil does make good arguments at times. And this is one of them.
Rev 20.12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books.
At the 2nd Coming, Antichrist is judged and the righteous are delivered. These are two judgments. The Antichrist is thrown directly, at that time, into the Lake of Fire. For me, the Lake of Fire is a means of disposing people from earth's new paradise. It is the start of an everlasting exile from the "Promised Land."
Rev 19.20 But the beast was captured, and with it the false prophet who had performed the signs on its behalf. With these signs he had deluded those who had received the mark of the beast and worshiped its image. The two of them were thrown alive into the fiery lake of burning sulfur.
However, even though Antichrist and his False Prophet are sent to the Lake of Fire at the 2nd Coming, we are told that other wicked people are kept in the grave until after a thousand years, when they also will be sent, together with the grave, into the Lake of Fire.
Where do these people come from, who were kept in the grave after Antichrist was defeated and himself thrown into the Lake of Fire?
Matt 25.31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.
Again, at Christ's 2nd Coming sheep and goats are separated in all nations. What is the basis of this separation? Is it judgment? Is it sentencing? Is it disposal or the exile of the wicked? I don't know. But it takes place at the 2nd Coming, apparently.
Dan 12.1 There will be a time of distress such as has not happened from the beginning of nations until then. But at that time your people—everyone whose name is found written in the book—will be delivered. 2 Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt.
Again, this sounds as if a dual resurrection takes place at the 2nd Coming. It seems in conflict with Rev 20, which separates the dual resurrections by a thousand years. Whether the thousand years is to be taken symbolically or not, it creates a seeming inconsistency unless there is another answer. My own belief is that the 2nd Coming here represents the entire thousand year period, allegorical or not, by which his Kingdom brings about this dual resurrection, whether they take place at different times in the Kingdom Age or not.
2 Thes 1.8 He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9 They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might 10 on the day he comes to be glorified in his holy people.
This is less bothersome for me as a Premil because we know that at Christ's 2nd Coming he will destroy Antichrist and the world that follows him. It will be a wide-spread judgment, which does not require that those who are destroyed be immediately sentenced to eternal death. There may be a difference between the time they die and the time they are sentenced.
But I don't know if when they die they go immediately into the Lake of Fire or not? They certainly are sent into the Grave, or Hades, which is itself thrown into the Lake of Fire at the end of the Millennium.
John 5.25 Very truly I tell you, a time is coming and has now come when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God and those who hear will live. 26 For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son also to have life in himself. 27 And he has given him authority to judge because he is the Son of Man.
28 “Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice 29 and come out—those who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned."
I don't know whether the language here suggests there can be a different "time" or "hour" in which the dual resurrections can take place? The Greek sense of an "hour," at that time, was used by the Jews less like a 24 hour clock, and more like a varying period of time.
The Apostle John said, "It is the last hour," which did not at all refer to a literal hour of time as we know it. So it expresses the last period of time. So in either case, the dual resurrection of righteous and wicked may have their own "last period of time," or may share the same "last period of time" without contradiction.
Just being honest. Amil does make good arguments at times. And this is one of them.
Randy Kluth
Well-Known Member
Calm down, brother. I just issued another post that you might like. I get real honest... #1083
Ronald Nolette
Well-Known Member
That is what amil does! takes a passage and symbolizes it. that is why they are amil- they reject a literal 1,000 years and Jesus reigning on earth over a physical kingdom.
Ronald Nolette
Well-Known Member
that is what teh JW's and Mormons and Catholics do as well. Why should I trust your symbolic reinterpretation more than theirs?
Ronald Nolette
Well-Known Member
I have already clearly told you otherwise. Maybe you symbolized that as well! Most things are very straightforward, if you simply follow th erules you read every other book! YOu read newspapers, books, magazines literally, and use grammar to know when they are using idiomatic things or speaking euphemistically, Why do you not do that with the Bible?
The books that taught you that these passages are to be taken symbolically, did you read that literally or maybe they had to be "discerned" symbolicaaly also?
Why would I want to read the writings of, or engage with, someone who is determined to insult and offend? I have absolutely no interest.
Ronald Nolette
Well-Known Member
Well you talked about teh worldly and now th saved. If all teh saved have teh Spirit then why do you rant on about "discernment"? I see that as just a ploy to reinterpret th eWord of God to make it say what you want.
Ronald Nolette
Well-Known Member
Well you have big issues for there are many contradictions i Scripture between old and new.
Yes the 1,000 years of rev. can be figurative. but because it is not grammatically constructed to tell us it is figurative, and because jesus reigns on earth and with all the Scriptures I posted that sahowed you life in teh millenial earth, it is literal.
After years of study as a new believer to sort out teh mess the church gives in trying to understand Scripture I accept this as the rule to inteprret Scripture:
The common sense Golden Rule of Interpretation
Posted on March 30, 2014
“When the plain sense of Scripture makes common sense, seek no other sense; therefore, take every word at its primary, ordinary, usual, literal meaning unless the facts of the immediate context, studied in the light of related passages and axiomatic and fundamental truths, indicate clearly otherwise.”–Dr. David L. Cooper (1886-1965),
founder of The Biblical Research Society
Hasn't failed me yet and lets me know without doubt passages that should be viewed symbolically.
Randy Kluth
Well-Known Member
Put Christ 1st, and all will be well with us, brother. I will do the same.
Ronald Nolette
Well-Known Member
BecaUSE YOUR WORDS IMPLY THAT WE TODAY SOMEHOW HAVE TO HAVE , as believers, TO UNDERSTAND WHAT pAUL WORTE. nO WHAT pAUL WROTE IS CLEAR, PLAIN AND CAN BE UNDERSTOOD BY A GRAMMAR SCHOOL KID, WHERRE DISCERNMENT COMES IN IS TO BE ABLE TO TAKE THOSE CLEAR WORDSA AND ACCEPT THEM AS TRUTH. nOT AS AMILS AND OTHERS DO, TO SUBTLY TWIST THE MEANING OF sCRIPTURE TO MAKE IT SAY SOMETHING OTHER THAN WHAT IS WRITTEN. Like the 6X 1,000 years appears in REv. 20. Not once is is constructed to say it shoud be taken symbolically like the other four times in Scripure is.
And if anything repitition should tell us to pay attention to what God is saying.
Just like the 144,000 Jews sealed for service, I thouroughly am saddened at how amils and others play twister with the Bible to tell people it doesn't literally mean 144,000 Jews, 12,000 from twelve tribes.
all this "mystical symbolic translating does is tell people they don't have the "discernment" to really know what God is saying and that they must turn to some person or organization to get teh "real meaning" of what is being said.
Ronald Nolette
Well-Known Member
Wrong! Basic understanding of grammar will tell you that. You want to call it discernemnt so you can symbolize passages you fin dinconvenient.
why should I accept your symbolisms as literal more than say the JW's and their "discerned interpretations"??
The early Premil heretics believed the same as you. It may surprise you to know that the views you hold and promote today were sourced and spread in antiquity chiefly among heretics. When we look for the originators and formulators of modern-day Premillennialism we actually arrive at four shadowy early figures. The first two operated at the very infancy of early Church history – Cerinthus of Asia Minor (AD 50-100) and Marcion of Sinope, Asia Minor (Born: AD 85, Died: AD 160). Both of these were viewed as arch-heretics and were strongly resisted by the early Church fathers for their corrupt perversion of Christianity. They invented a dual-covenant concept of two parallel yet coexisting peoples of God, under two different agreements, serving two different gods, with two different time-tables and two different ultimate outcomes. This was seasoned throughout with Gnostic elements.
The heretical dualists were Premil literalists who opposed the more-figurative Amillennialist position. Origen in his Commentary on the Gospel of Matthew 15.3, explained how Marcion "prohibited allegorical interpretations of the scripture."
As a Premil, Marcion was a literalist and took the thousand years as a literal period of time after the second coming that involved the continuation of this physical age and all its pleasures and afflictions.
Origen actually summed up the ethos of those that held to a future millennium saturated in mortals (including the wicked) and who promoted the return of the old covenant arrangement as “understand the divine Scriptures in a sort of Jewish sense” (De Principiis, Book 2, Chapter XI).
This is the classic MO of modern-day Premils. They hurl the same charges at Amillennialists as these ancient heretics through at ancient orthodox Church generally. It comes up continually in discussions with Premils.
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What about when your opinion of one highly debated passage in the most symbolic setting in Scripture contradicts the rest of Scripture? You literally is a passage that is highly symbolic. That is theologically insane.
Amil is built on safer ground. Amil is built upon corroboration. Multiple strong and repeated Scriptures on each tenet of that position proves that doctrine. Let us discuss some of the water-tight support Amil enjoys for its understanding of Rev 20.
Much Scripture proves that Jesus is "the first resurrection" (Acts 26:23 and Revelation 20:6), "the firstborn from the dead" (Colossians 1:18), "the firstfruits of them that slept" (1 Corinthians 15:20), "first begotten of the dead" (Revelation 1:5).
Matthew 12:22-29, Mark 3:11, 23-27, Luke 10:18-19, Luke 11:20-22, John 12:31-33 Colossians 2:13-15, Hebrews 2:14-15, I John 3:8, Revelation 9:1-11 and Revelation 20:2 prove Satan was bound, defeated, incapacitated, divested of power, disarmed, brought to naught, undone, stripped and spiritually imprisoned through Christ's sinless life, atoning death and triumphant resurrection. Colossians 2:15 tells us: “having spoiled (or divested or disarmed) principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.” Satan has not been rendered immobile or inoperative but is limited in his power, kingship and influence by being defeated on the cross. He is like a dog on a chain. He is shackled.
Other Scripture shows the reigning of the dead in Christ now during the intra-Advent period (Revelation 20:4). See also Hebrews 12:18, 22-23, Revelation 6:9-10, 7:9-17, 15:1-3.
Christ appears with His holy angels (Matthew 13:41-43, 49 16:27 24:29-31 25:31-32, Mark 13:25-27, Luke 9:26, Revelation 14:14-20) and the New Jerusalem (John 14:1-3, Hebrews 11:8-10, 13-16, 13:14. Revelation 3:11-12, 21:1-4).
There is a general resurrection/judgment (singular) of all mankind at the coming of Christ (Matthew 10:15, 12:36, 16:27, 25:31-46, John 5:21-30, 6:39-44, 54, 10:42, 11:21-27, 12:48, 17:30-32, 24:15, Acts 10:42, 17:30-31, Romans 2:4-8, 14:10-12, 1 Corinthians 3:6-8, 11-15, 1 Corinthians 4:5, 2 Corinthians 5:10, 2 Timothy 4:1-8, 2 Thessalonians 1:5-8, 1 Timothy 5:24, Hebrews 9:27, 10:27, 2 Peter 2:9, 3:7, 1 Peter 4:1-5, 1 John 4:17, and Revelation 19:11, 20:11-15, 22:12).
Satan cast into the Lake of Fire (Isaiah 26:19, II Thessalonians 2:1-9 Revelation 20:10). This occurs before the heaven and earth pass away in Revelation 20.
There is a climactic conflagration (Job 14:12-14, Isaiah 13:9-11, Isaiah 34:1-4, 8, Isaiah 65:17-21, Isaiah 66:22-24, Joel 2:3, Joel 2:10-11, Malachi 4:1-3, Matthew 24:29-30, Matthew 24:35-44, Mark 13:24-26, Luke 21:25-27, Romans 8:18-23, 1 Corinthians 15:23-24, 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10, 2 Peter 3:10-13, Hebrews 1:10-12, Revelation 6:13-17, Revelation 16:15-20, Revelation 19:11-16 and Revelation 20:11-15).
Perfection arrives with the age to come (Luke 20:27-36, Romans 8:19-23, 1 Corinthians 15:50-55, 2 Peter 3:3-13 Philippians 3:20-21, 1 Peter 4:3-7, Hebrews 1:10-12 and Revelation 20:11-15, 21:1-5).
The age to come possesses no mortals. The wicked are destroyed at His appearing (2 Samuel 22:9, Job 41:20-21, Psalm 18:7-8, 37:9-11, 50:1-6, 68:1-3, 97:3-5, Isaiah 11:4-5, 13:9, 30:33, 66:15-17, Joel 2:1-3, 2:10-11, Nahum 1:1, 5-6, Malachi 4:1, Luke 17:26-30, 20:34-36, Romans 8:19-23, 1 Corinthians 6:9, 13:8-13, 15:50-55, 1 Thessalonians 4:15-5:3, II Thessalonians 1:4-10, Revelation 16:15-21, 19:11-18, Revelation 21-22).
1 Corinthians 13:12, Ephesians 4:13 and Revelation 10:5-7 show that the curtain coming down on the mystery of God, thus confirming we are at the end of time and entering into eternity when all will finally be revealed.
This is a water-tight argument to me that the second coming is “the end.”
Scripture can't help your sadness.
The choice:
1. 144,000 sex-crazed Jews
or
2. God's Church through the ages
The Church and the 144,000
Revelation 7:3-4 describe the 144,000 as “sealed.” That description is reserved in the NT for believers in Christ – His Body and Bride – His Church:
2 Corinthians 1:21-22
Now He who establishes us with you in Christ and anointed us is God, who also sealed us and gave us the Spirit in our hearts as a pledge.
Ephesians 1:13
In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,
Ephesians 4:30
Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.
The Revelation 7 passage is therefore conveying the insight that the OT Israelitish faithful saints of God are included under the NT banner of the Church. This is further confirmed by the meanings of the names of the listed tribes and substitutes (Levi and Joseph replacing Dan and Ephraim), describing spiritual qualities and experiences of those who comprise the Church:
- Judah means “praise” (Gen 29:35)
- Reuben means “see, a Son” (Gen 29:32)
- Gad means “fortunate” (Gen 30:11)
- Asher means “happy” (Gen 30:13)
- Naphtali means “wrestling” (Gen 30:8)
- Manasseh means “forgetting” (Gen 41:51)
- Simeon means “heard” (Gen 29:33)
- Levi means “attached” (Gen 29:34)
- Issachar means “wages” (Gen 30:18)
- Zebulon means “dwelling” (Gen 30:20)
- Joseph means “He will add” (Gen 30:24)
- Benjamin means “Son of the right hand” (Gen 35:17–18)
- Dan means “a serpent by the way”(Genesis 49:17)
- Ephraim means “fruitful in the land of mine affliction” (Genesis 41:52)
Of additional significance is the order in which the names are presented, differing from the usual presentation by order of birth. In particular, Judah appears first, in recognition of its role as the tribal progenitor of Christ, the Lion of Judah.
While rebellion and apostasy were repetitive afflictions of the OT Israelites, there were still thousands who remained faithful (1 Kings 19:18). Their number is depicted as 12, a scriptural value representing faithfulness; multiplied by 12, representing the faithful from each of the twelve tribes; multiplied by 1,000 representing the indeterminate but large number (Psalms 50:10; Psalms 91:7; Revelation 5:11) of the total faithful in Israel; thus, 144,000.
Revelation 14 continues the descriptions further reflecting the qualities and experiences of the redeemed – the Church. Absent here is any mention of tribal, ethnic, or other distinctions, thus conveying the reality of the inclusivity and unity of the NT Church which now embraces both Israelite and Gentile. Its number can also be depicted as 12, representing faithfulness; multipled by 12 representing the 12 faithful apostles, who with the prophets comprise the foundation of the NT church, with Christ as the Chief Cornerstone (Ephesians 2:20); multiplied by 1,000 representing the indeterminate but large number of the total faithful in the NT Church; thus, also 144,000.
The NT Church's inclusivity and unity are declared in the following:
Galatians 3:28
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.
Ephesians 2:14
For He Himself is our peace, who made both groups into one and broke down the barrier of the dividing wall…
Colossians 3:11
Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.
The 144,00 are described as celibate, meaning that as the Bride of Christ, they are not defiled by adultery with the world (James 4:4). They sing a new song of deliverance and victory. They follow Christ wherever He goes. Their residence is heavenly Jerusalem on Mount Zion. (Hebrews 12:22)
No doubt about it…the Church is written all over the 144,000.
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Ronald Nolette
Well-Known Member
Well we know He is not reigning on earth, for Scripture tell sus He WILL (not might) rule with a rod of iron! Not much rod of iron ruling going on earth now!
We know He is not the sovereign of heaven, for then He would be reigning over His father and that is not true. so where is he reigning? Unless of course Matt. 28:18 is not talking about reigning and the world "exousia" has a better understanding to it.
Eph. 1:19-23. Yes Jesus is the head of teh church. Yes Jesus is above all dominions, but that does not mean He has started His reign yet. Remember the bible does say that right now Jesus is preparing a place for the church He also ever liveth to make intercession. IOW Jesus has three roles, Prophet, Priet, King.
He ended His role as prophet sometime after His arrest.
He is still in His role as Priest, for He lives now, not to reign, but to make intercession as SCripture says (unless you believe that is symbolic as well, I don't know what you take literally and what you take symbolically). when Jesus comes back as described in Revelation 19, He comes back as King of Kings and Lord of Lords, above all else but His Father.
REv. 1? NO where does it say that Jesus is now reigning as king of kings and Lord of Lords. Satan is still the god of this world! While Jesus has the authority, it is not exacted yet. Satan still deceives as He did before Jesus died. Jesus is not reigning for when He reings He rules with a rod of iron. do you see that rod of iron being used on earth these days??
One thing I have noticed.
I posted an enormous amount of SCriptures showing you life on millenial earth ( we know it is future for it ha snot happened yet and God did say "It shall come to pass") and you have not commented once on them.
Ronald Nolette
Well-Known Member
If you said earlier, I have forgotten, but I wish to ask an honest question of you (though all I ask are honest).
As you take the 1,000 years as symbolic, has it started already? If so when did it do so? It can be approximate, that is fine. Or do you believe it begins in some future time as I do as a literalist in viewing the 1,000 years. I think I need to know this so we can proceed in a less scatter shot way.
The binding began through the earthly ministry of Christ where He confronted and overcome Satan at every turn. It culminated in the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus. After this, the Gospel opened up to the nations and the veil of deception was finally lifted.
I believe Christ is "the first resurrection" (Acts 26:23 and Revelation 20:6), "the firstborn from the dead" (Colossians 1:18), "the firstfruits of them that slept" (1 Corinthians 15:20), "first begotten of the dead" (Revelation 1:5). Positionally, we have our part in His life, death, resurrection, ascension and glorious reign through regeneration - being "in Christ." This means the lake of fire (the second death) has no claim over us. Our sin was buried with Christ and when He arose we arose. He was our representative. He was our substitute. The company that have their “part” in the first resurrection in Revelation 20:6 are all those that are spiritually raised “in Christ” from the grave of their sin.
Through physical resurrection we become part of that great physical harvest. Both the first and second resurrections are totally connected. Because Christ conquered the grave physically so we will conquer the grave if we have our "part" or portion "in Christ" through salvation. The key is that we initially experience our part in that glorious first resurrection "by faith" and therefore experience both resurrections.
Truth7t7
Well-Known Member
- Jan 2, 2014
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Problem is your interpretation of "Rod Of Iron"
You falsely believe and teach its some sort of rulers scepter "Wrong"!
A "Rod Of Iron" is a tool of "Destruction" that a Potter destroys clay vessels with
Jesus returns and destroy's like a Potter with a "Rod Of Iron" its that simple
Sad part is, you have been clearly shown the truth several times, and continue to teach error
Rod Of Iron is a "Tool Of Destruction" not a Kings "Scepter" as you falsely believe and teach
Revelation 2:27KJV
27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.
Revelation 19:15KJV
15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
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