Paul claimed 3 times that Revelation 20:4 was a current reality.

[Trekson]

Why do you say it's obvious when you apparently believe that some believers will be resurrected at another time as well? Why would Jesus have not wanted to make it clear as to which resurrection He was talking about if there is going to be more than one future resurrection day?

He did, to John, years later, it's called the "Revelation" of Jesus Christ.

 

[Trekson]

But they are not 1000 years apart. Both passages indicate that the saved and lost will be resurrected at generally the same time. The Daniel 12 passage indicates that it will happen "at that time", not at those times. In John 5:28-29, Jesus said "a time is coming" when all the dead will be raised, not that multiple times are coming when the dead will be raised.

Dan. 12:1 is speaking of the living, this is part of the prophecy about the restrainer, who is Michael as depicted in Rev. 12:7-9. He is speaking of the living, believing woman when the time of Jacob's trouble is over, which, imo, began in 70ad and is still ongoing (christian Israel when there eyes are opened per Zech. 12:10) of Rev. 12:13-15, that is "at that time your people will be delivered". This is during the 70th week. Dan. 12:2 is speaking of a later time than that, imo, the GWTJ. Imo, John 5:25-26 is speaking of the resurrection of believers at the time of the rapture, the word "live" implies eternally, the phrase "hear the voice" is a reference to "only his sheep hear His voice". After that there will come a time when the rest of the dead, the GWTJ, will be judged and per vs. 29 and it is dependent on their works and not on Christ, those throughout time who never heard of Christ or the gospel but lived their lives according to the innate knowledge of good and evil that resides in all of us.

 

[Trekson]

Do you think that the following two verses are talking about two entirely different events?

Matthew 25:41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

Revelation 20:15 Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.

Do you think "the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels" is something different than the lake of fire?

Of course. Matt. 25 is a judgment of the living, the goats go to hell the sheep enter the millennium retaining their humanity to repopulate the earth. Rev. 20 is the judgment of the dead, the GWTJ. Yeah, their probably the same place just folks arriving at different times. Imo, nothing in scripture implies a one and done period of judgment.

 

[Timtofly]

Acts 17 and Matt. 13 are describing the GWTJ, post mill. Matt. 25 is describing an earthly judgment, post 70th week.

Matthew Chapter 25:31-46 is nothing more than a "Parable" of the GWTJ, as Matthew 25:46 shows the judgment to "Eternal Life" and "Eternal Punishment" (The End)

Your eschatology in beliefs are in the book of Aesops Fables, and that's a big understatemebt!

Matthew 25:46KJV
46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

You both are not understanding these judgments.

Matthew 25 happens at the Second Coming during the Trumpets. These people are not even physically dead at this judgment. They are sentenced accordingly, but the sheep never die physically, only changed. The goats are sentenced to the LOF. After the Second Coming, no one has to wait for the LOF. Satan is cast in 1,000 years after the FP is. Death and sheol have to wait 1,000 years until the GWT. But no verse claims a person has to wait who has not even died yet. The FP did not die, but was cast alive into the LOF. Revelation 19:20

"And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone."

We are  told that the rest are killed, meaning they waited in Death for 1,000 years. You are missing the fact that the FP and the beast were not killed, but literally tossed alive into the LOF. Satan was bound and placed in the pit. Matthew 25:41

"Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:"

The goats were cast alive into the fire. They were sent to the LOF years before the FP will be, because the 42 months has not even happened yet during the Trumpets. But many here including Amil swing around their imaginary wand and re-arrange Revelation to fit their opinions of end times.

The heavens dissolve, and the works of the earth are burned up at the 6th Seal. Then and only then, can the 7th Seal be opened to start the 7 Trumpets and 7 Thunders. Nothing is left after chapter 6, because they are hiding in caves and under rocks, the rubble of all man's works. If any thing survives, it was hidden away underground by Satan. Obviously he may get 42 months to jump start the economy and attempt at some normalcy. When the pit is opened at the 5th Trumpet, who knows what else comes out besides all those rebel angels?

Matthew 13 takes place after the sheep and goats, during the 7 Thunders. The wheat and tares are still about people alive on earth after the Second Coming. These are not the dead mentioned in Revelation 20 standing at the GWT. The tares are cast alive into the fire. These are not dead people. Obviously in the 7 Thunders, the angels are literally rounding up humans and tossing them into the LOF. We were not allowed to read these judgments, as they don't pertain to us, nor Israel. It happens at the Second Coming. It does not happen after the 1,000 years. No one is still alive in Adam's flesh during the 1,000 years. Matthew 13:40

"As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world."

Matthew 13 and 25 are not physically dead people so no resurrection is ever mentioned. They are spiritually dead in Adam's corruptible flesh. Obviously the sheep and wheat are changed out of Adam's dead corruptible flesh, and given God's permanent incorruptible physical body. They don't remain sinners, as they have been chosen, redeemed, and translated from death into life. But no Scripture declares them physically dead and resurrected. Just like the church caught up in the air at the 5th and 6th Seal are not killed and resurrected, they are physically changed. They do physically leave Adam's flesh behind though, so that body is dead and returns to dust. Obviously there is no funeral service for all those souls rising in the air. Unless you think God burns those bodies up in the fire at the same time all the other works on earth are burned up, who knows? Unless thrown physically into the LOF, this physical body does not go to sheol nor Death.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Dan. 12:1 is speaking of the living, this is part of the prophecy about the restrainer, who is Michael as depicted in Rev. 12:7-9. He is speaking of the living, believing woman when the time of Jacob's trouble is over, which, imo, began in 70ad and is still ongoing (christian Israel when there eyes are opened per Zech. 12:10) of Rev. 12:13-15, that is "at that time your people will be delivered". This is during the 70th week. Dan. 12:2 is speaking of a later time than that, imo, the GWTJ. Imo, John 5:25-26 is speaking of the resurrection of believers at the time of the rapture, the word "live" implies eternally, the phrase "hear the voice" is a reference to "only his sheep hear His voice". After that there will come a time when the rest of the dead, the GWTJ, will be judged and per vs. 29 and it is dependent on their works and not on Christ, those throughout time who never heard of Christ or the gospel but lived their lives according to the innate knowledge of good and evil that resides in all of us.

Sorry, but I can't make any sense out of anything you said here. You seem to have a belief that's all our own.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Of course. Matt. 25 is a judgment of the living, the goats go to hell the sheep enter the millennium retaining their humanity to repopulate the earth.

How do you come to this conclusion? How can the sheep be mortals when it says they inherit "eternal life" (Matt 25:46) at that time?

Rev. 20 is the judgment of the dead, the GWTJ. Yeah, their probably the same place just folks arriving at different times. Imo, nothing in scripture implies a one and done period of judgment.

Then I guess you've never read this:

Matthew 13:47 “Once again, the kingdom of heaven is like a net that was let down into the lake and caught all kinds of fish. 48 When it was full, the fishermen pulled it up on the shore. Then they sat down and collected the good fish in baskets, but threw the bad away. 49 This is how it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come and separate the wicked from the righteous 50 and throw them into the blazing furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Jesus indicated that good/righteous and bad/wicked (saved and lost) people will be gathered at the same time and then judged at the end of the age. How do you conclude that people are judged at different times in light of passages like this?

 

[jeffweeder]

How do you come to this conclusion? How can the sheep be mortals when it says they inherit "eternal life" (Matt 25:46) at that time?


Then I guess you've never read this:

Matthew 13:47 “Once again, the kingdom of heaven is like a net that was let down into the lake and caught all kinds of fish. 48 When it was full, the fishermen pulled it up on the shore. Then they sat down and collected the good fish in baskets, but threw the bad away. 49 This is how it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come and separate the wicked from the righteous 50 and throw them into the blazing furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Jesus indicated that good/righteous and bad/wicked (saved and lost) people will be gathered at the same time and then judged at the end of the age. How do you conclude that people are judged at different times in light of passages like this?

Good question.
Those ALL KINDS of fish would be people from every nation, tribe, and race at the end of the Gospel age to the whole world when he comes again.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Good question.
Those ALL KINDS of fish would be people from every nation, tribe, and race at the end of the Gospel age to the whole world when he comes again.

Right. And it indicates that all of them are gathered and judged at the same time. I just can't comprehend how anyone can think there will be multiple judgment days in the future when passages like that one and several others clearly indicate that there is just one judgment day.

 

[Trekson]

You both are not understanding these judgments.

Matthew 25 happens at the Second Coming during the Trumpets. These people are not even physically dead at this judgment. They are sentenced accordingly, but the sheep never die physically, only changed. The goats are sentenced to the LOF. After the Second Coming, no one has to wait for the LOF. Satan is cast in 1,000 years after the FP is. Death and sheol have to wait 1,000 years until the GWT. But no verse claims a person has to wait who has not even died yet. The FP did not die, but was cast alive into the LOF. Revelation 19:20

"And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone."

We are  told that the rest are killed, meaning they waited in Death for 1,000 years. You are missing the fact that the FP and the beast were not killed, but literally tossed alive into the LOF. Satan was bound and placed in the pit. Matthew 25:41

"Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:"

The goats were cast alive into the fire. They were sent to the LOF years before the FP will be, because the 42 months has not even happened yet during the Trumpets. But many here including Amil swing around their imaginary wand and re-arrange Revelation to fit their opinions of end times.

The heavens dissolve, and the works of the earth are burned up at the 6th Seal. Then and only then, can the 7th Seal be opened to start the 7 Trumpets and 7 Thunders. Nothing is left after chapter 6, because they are hiding in caves and under rocks, the rubble of all man's works. If any thing survives, it was hidden away underground by Satan. Obviously he may get 42 months to jump start the economy and attempt at some normalcy. When the pit is opened at the 5th Trumpet, who knows what else comes out besides all those rebel angels?

Matthew 13 takes place after the sheep and goats, during the 7 Thunders. The wheat and tares are still about people alive on earth after the Second Coming. These are not the dead mentioned in Revelation 20 standing at the GWT. The tares are cast alive into the fire. These are not dead people. Obviously in the 7 Thunders, the angels are literally rounding up humans and tossing them into the LOF. We were not allowed to read these judgments, as they don't pertain to us, nor Israel. It happens at the Second Coming. It does not happen after the 1,000 years. No one is still alive in Adam's flesh during the 1,000 years. Matthew 13:40

"As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world."

Matthew 13 and 25 are not physically dead people so no resurrection is ever mentioned. They are spiritually dead in Adam's corruptible flesh. Obviously the sheep and wheat are changed out of Adam's dead corruptible flesh, and given God's permanent incorruptible physical body. They don't remain sinners, as they have been chosen, redeemed, and translated from death into life. But no Scripture declares them physically dead and resurrected. Just like the church caught up in the air at the 5th and 6th Seal are not killed and resurrected, they are physically changed. They do physically leave Adam's flesh behind though, so that body is dead and returns to dust. Obviously there is no funeral service for all those souls rising in the air. Unless you think God burns those bodies up in the fire at the same time all the other works on earth are burned up, who knows? Unless thrown physically into the LOF, this physical body does not go to sheol nor Death.

I believe your interpretation of time is incorrect, agree to disagree.

 

[Trekson]

Sorry, but I can't make any sense out of anything you said here. You seem to have a belief that's all our own.

I consider it as "rightly dividing the word of truth". That's pretty uncommon nowadays.

 

[Timtofly]

Right. And it indicates that all of them are gathered and judged at the same time. I just can't comprehend how anyone can think there will be multiple judgment days in the future when passages like that one and several others clearly indicate that there is just one judgment day.

Because those alive are judged prior to the 1,000 years. Those dead are cast into the LOF after the 1,000 years.

There is a difference between those physically alive, and those physically dead.

In fact the FP and beast are cast alive into the LOF. They are not even physically killed first. Then 1,000 years later Satan is cast into the LOF. Different judgments. Different people. 1,000 years between the carrying out of the sentence. After the Second Coming, some die physically, while some are cast immediately into the LOF. The final resurrection is the GWT, 1,000 years after the Second Coming. Those judged at the Second Coming are not even dead yet, so don't even need a resurrection.

 

[Timtofly]

I believe your interpretation of time is incorrect, agree to disagree.

You don't accept the Second Coming is 1,000 years prior to the GWT?

You don't think Jesus will bring in Righteousness, thus rule over sinners and let sin flourish?

I agree you are wrong about the Second Coming.

 

[Trekson]

You don't accept the Second Coming is 1,000 years prior to the GWT?

You don't think Jesus will bring in Righteousness, thus rule over sinners and let sin flourish?

I agree you are wrong about the Second Coming.

No, I agree w/ that one but regarding the trumpets, the 7th trumpet is years before the end of the 70th week, the reality of its claims are spoken foreward in faith because the wrath of the Lamb is completed with the 7th trump but there wrath of God begins next. The 7th trump is not the "last" trumpet of 1 Cor., that is connected to the feast of trumpets. The 7th trump is also the third woe and that is satan being cast down to the earth and he has at least1260 days to do his thing per Rev. 12:14.

 

[Davy]

I offered some as examples, sorry you don't believe the word.

Well no, you didn't give examples of what you said below in your post...

You said:
"The John passage sounds like the GWTJ and sorry but the millennium will consist of living humanity who will re-populate the earth."

The specific John passage I was discussing was John 5:28-29 where Lord Jesus showed on the day of His future return, ALL... in the graves will hear His voice and come forth, those who did good to the "resurrection of life", and those who did evil to the "resurrection of damnation".

Your words sound like you REFUSE to believe the timing Jesus gave in that John 5:28-29 Scripture. So NO... you didn't give ANY examples to back up your theory against that John 5 Scripture.

 

[Mr E]

How do you come to this conclusion? How can the sheep be mortals when it says they inherit "eternal life" (Matt 25:46) at that time?


Then I guess you've never read this:

Matthew 13:47 “Once again, the kingdom of heaven is like a net that was let down into the lake and caught all kinds of fish. 48 When it was full, the fishermen pulled it up on the shore. Then they sat down and collected the good fish in baskets, but threw the bad away. 49 This is how it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come and separate the wicked from the righteous 50 and throw them into the blazing furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Jesus indicated that good/righteous and bad/wicked (saved and lost) people will be gathered at the same time and then judged at the end of the age. How do you conclude that people are judged at different times in light of passages like this?

We always talk about the sheep and the goats....

Why do people so seldom mention The Great Fish Fry in the sky?

Then they sat down and collected the good fish in baskets, but threw the bad away. This is how it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come and separate the wicked from the righteous and throw them into the blazing furnace...

 

[Trekson]

Well no, you didn't give examples of what you said below in your post...

You said:
"The John passage sounds like the GWTJ and sorry but the millennium will consist of living humanity who will re-populate the earth."

The specific John passage I was discussing was John 5:28-29 where Lord Jesus showed on the day of His future return, ALL... in the graves will hear His voice and come forth, those who did good to the "resurrection of life", and those who did evil to the "resurrection of damnation".

Your words sound like you REFUSE to believe the timing Jesus gave in that John 5:28-29 Scripture. So NO... you didn't give ANY examples to back up your theory against that John 5 Scripture.

Ok, sorry, I've been responding to a lot of posts. Imo, John 5:25-26 sounds like the rapture/resurrection folks receiving eternal life ("My sheep know my voice") spoken about "first" by Jesus, then in vs. 28 he emphasizes another time when "all" in the grave will hear his voice which, imo, is the post mill GWTJ.

 

[Davy]

Ok, sorry, I've been responding to a lot of posts. Imo, John 5:25-26 sounds like the rapture/resurrection folks receiving eternal life ("My sheep know my voice") spoken about "first" by Jesus, then in vs. 28 he emphasizes another time when "all" in the grave will hear his voice which, imo, is the post mill GWTJ.

And that is exactly why I said you are in error on your interpretation of that John 5:28-29 passage.

The time of that event is on the day of Christ's future return, at the 'last day' of this world. And at that moment, it is showing ALL IN THE GRAVES HEAR HIS VOICE AND COME FORTH, to one or the other 'type' of resurrection. So that is revealing the resurrection of BOTH the Just AND... the unjust happens on that day.

And since it means the wicked are resurrected ALSO on that day, it is error to say that event is only for the dead in Christ.

 

[rwb]

And that is exactly why I said you are in error on your interpretation of that John 5:28-29 passage.

The time of that event is on the day of Christ's future return, at the 'last day' of this world. And at that moment, it is showing ALL IN THE GRAVES HEAR HIS VOICE AND COME FORTH, to one or the other 'type' of resurrection. So that is revealing the resurrection of BOTH the Just AND... the unjust happens on that day.

And since it means the wicked are resurrected ALSO on that day, it is error to say that event is only for the dead in Christ.

But the one having done good is resurrected to life, and the one having done evil resurrection of condemnation. The one resurrected to life are the same ones physically raised from the grave and changed from mortal to immortal, and corruptible to incorruptible. This is not believers being raised a spiritual body. That happens when the body of the believer physically dies and returns to the dust of the earth. The rest are also physically resurrected to be judged at the GWT and since they will not be found written in the Book of life they will be cast into the eternal flames.

 

[Davy]

But the one having done good is resurrected to life, and the one having done evil resurrection of condemnation. The one resurrected to life are the same ones physically raised from the grave and changed from mortal to immortal, and corruptible to incorruptible. This is not believers being raised a spiritual body. That happens when the body of the believer physically dies and returns to the dust of the earth. The rest are also physically resurrected to be judged at the GWT and since they will not be found written in the Book of life they will be cast into the eternal flames.

I think you are confused...

John 5:28-29
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
KJV

Break it down:

"... for the hour is coming," - this is in contrast to the John 5:25 of "The hour is coming, and now is...", which happened on the day of Christ's death and resurrection, with some coming out their graves and appearing to those in Jerusalem.

"...in the which all that are in the graves" -- ALL the dead, not just some of them. This means both the Just and the unjust.

"...shall hear His voice." -- all in the graves hear His voice on that day. That is the "last trump" timing by Paul.

"And shall come forth;..."-- all those in graves come forth at that moment, both the Just and the unjust.

"...they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life,..." -- those in Christ Jesus only, the Just. These have their mortal souls put on immortality in Christ Jesus.

"... they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation." -- these are the wicked dead being resurrected at that SAME time. These are the 'unjust', the unsaved, still subject to the "second death" of being cast into the "lake of fire" after the "thousand years" of Rev.20.

 

[rwb]

I think you are confused...

John 5:28-29
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
KJV

Break it down:

"... for the hour is coming," - this is in contrast to the John 5:25 of "The hour is coming, and now is...", which happened on the day of Christ's death and resurrection, with some coming out their graves and appearing to those in Jerusalem.

"...in the which all that are in the graves" -- ALL the dead, not just some of them. This means both the Just and the unjust.

"...shall hear His voice." -- all in the graves hear His voice on that day. That is the "last trump" timing by Paul.

"And shall come forth;..."-- all those in graves come forth at that moment, both the Just and the unjust.

"...they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life,..." -- those in Christ Jesus only, the Just. These have their mortal souls put on immortality in Christ Jesus.

"... they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation." -- these are the wicked dead being resurrected at that SAME time. These are the 'unjust', the unsaved, still subject to the "second death" of being cast into the "lake of fire" after the "thousand years" of Rev.20.

It helps to quote this passage in context. Christ shows us the hour coming, and now is, is when mankind is able to hear His Word and believe on Him. Those who hear and believe in the hour that has NOW come is when we obtain everlasting life and shall not come into condemnation but have passed from death to life. Not all who are spiritually dead hear His voice in this hour that NOW is, because Christ says, "they that hear shall live." Some do not hear the voice of the Son of God coming from His Word and remain spiritually dead. Never having everlasting life because they do not believe on Him.

John 5:24-25 (KJV) Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

Christ contrasts the hour that has NOW come, a time for hearing His Word and believing on Him, with the hour that IS coming when ALL that are in the graves will hear His voice and physically come out of the grave unto the resurrection of life, or the resurrection of damnation.

John 5:28-29 (KJV) Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Nowhere in these passages do we read of the unjust being cast into the lake of fire one thousand years after they are physically resurrected for damnation. Only an unbiblical interpretation of Rev 20 leads you to believe this error.