Spiritual Millennialism is not with Satan shut up

  • Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

1stCenturyLady

Well-Known Member
Jun 26, 2018
5,334
2,165
113
76
Tennessee
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
No, it's not for that nor does scripture show that happening. The GT is a war against Christians, Rev 12-13.

Rev 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

They are part of it for sure. Christians that still need to "overcome" will have to choose whether to live and take the mark of the beast, or die and refuse the mark. (Philadelphian Christians will be kept and protected). But it is the "woman" Israel, who the beast is really after. Israel is protected the first 3.5 years (same as the 2 witnesses) and that is when they come to Jesus. But the second half, the beast will be able to include Israel with the Christians, for they all will be Christians.
 

Davy

Well-Known Member
Feb 11, 2018
11,767
2,521
113
Southeastern U.S.
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
They are part of it for sure. Christians that still need to "overcome" will have to choose whether to live and take the mark of the beast, or die and refuse the mark. (Philadelphian Christians will be kept and protected). But it is the "woman" Israel, who the beast is really after. Israel is protected the first 3.5 years (same as the 2 witnesses) and that is when they come to Jesus. But the second half, the beast will be able to include Israel with the Christians, for they all will be Christians.
I don't see anywhere that shows orthodox unbelieving Jews convert to Jesus once false-Messiah arrives and the Jews build their temple again and startup old covenant worship in Jerusalem again. The 144,000 are 'sealed' by The Holy Spirit prior to the start of the trib.
 

1stCenturyLady

Well-Known Member
Jun 26, 2018
5,334
2,165
113
76
Tennessee
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
I don't see anywhere that shows orthodox unbelieving Jews convert to Jesus once false-Messiah arrives and the Jews build their temple again and startup old covenant worship in Jerusalem again. The 144,000 are 'sealed' by The Holy Spirit prior to the start of the trib.
Romans 11; Revelation 12 and 13. How do you see the 144,000 are sealed prior to the GT. Also, no Gentiles come to Christ during the GT.
 
Last edited:

Davy

Well-Known Member
Feb 11, 2018
11,767
2,521
113
Southeastern U.S.
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Romans 11; Revelation 12 and 13. How do you see the 144,000 are sealed prior to the GT. No Gentiles come to Christ during the GT.
Can't just quote those whole Chapters. You need to 'show' the Scripture proof for your idea.

Romans 11, Paul points to the Jews God blinded being saved, eventually. It does not tell us when, but only points back to the prophets. Well.. in Zechariah 6 we are shown 'when', and it involves the day of Christ's future return WHEN God removes the blindness He put upon them. And then they will appear in 'shame' to Christ for having rejected Him. That is why it is the unbelieving Jews that will wish for the hills and mountains to fall upon them to hide from The Lamb at His appearing. That is when Paul's fulness of the Gentiles will be complete.

Revelation 12 has more than one timeline. Verse 1-5 covers God's original ordaining of Israel before the world began to the future time of Christ's Millennial reign. And then it covers Satan's original rebellion in the old world, and then his attempt to destroy the Seed of the Woman. Then a time of protection in the wilderness, and then the great tribulation when the dragon and his angels are booted out of Heaven down to this earth to persecute Christ's elect. And those mean Christ's Church, NOT unbelieving Jews. Probably the majority of the ten lost tribes of Israel are members of Christ's Church, a history which many are blinded to.

Rev.13 definitely has NO examples of Jews converting to Christ Jesus. Instead, it is about the final one-world beast kingdom for the end, and the coming false-Messiah, called the "another beast", which also is for the very end of this world.

So actually NONE of the Bible Chapters you quoted support your theory.

In Rev.7, we are shown 144,000, which is 12,000 out of each Israelite tribe shown there, are SEALED with God's sealing. And the four angels are told to hold until those are sealed. Ephesians 1:13 reveals being 'sealed' is by The Holy Spirit Promise, and that is DIRECTLY RELATED TO FAITH ON CHRIST JESUS. It means they have 'believed' beforehand.

Likewise with the "great multitude" of Rev.7:9, they represent the believing Gentiles that go through the great tribulation.
 

1stCenturyLady

Well-Known Member
Jun 26, 2018
5,334
2,165
113
76
Tennessee
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Can't just quote those whole Chapters. You need to 'show' the Scripture proof for your idea.

Romans 11, Paul points to the Jews God blinded being saved, eventually. It does not tell us when, but only points back to the prophets. Well.. in Zechariah 6 we are shown 'when', and it involves the day of Christ's future return WHEN God removes the blindness He put upon them. And then they will appear in 'shame' to Christ for having rejected Him. That is why it is the unbelieving Jews that will wish for the hills and mountains to fall upon them to hide from The Lamb at His appearing. That is when Paul's fulness of the Gentiles will be complete.

Revelation 12 has more than one timeline. Verse 1-5 covers God's original ordaining of Israel before the world began to the future time of Christ's Millennial reign. And then it covers Satan's original rebellion in the old world, and then his attempt to destroy the Seed of the Woman. Then a time of protection in the wilderness, and then the great tribulation when the dragon and his angels are booted out of Heaven down to this earth to persecute Christ's elect. And those mean Christ's Church, NOT unbelieving Jews. Probably the majority of the ten lost tribes of Israel are members of Christ's Church, a history which many are blinded to.

Rev.13 definitely has NO examples of Jews converting to Christ Jesus. Instead, it is about the final one-world beast kingdom for the end, and the coming false-Messiah, called the "another beast", which also is for the very end of this world.

So actually NONE of the Bible Chapters you quoted support your theory.

In Rev.7, we are shown 144,000, which is 12,000 out of each Israelite tribe shown there, are SEALED with God's sealing. And the four angels are told to hold until those are sealed. Ephesians 1:13 reveals being 'sealed' is by The Holy Spirit Promise, and that is DIRECTLY RELATED TO FAITH ON CHRIST JESUS. It means they have 'believed' beforehand.

Likewise with the "great multitude" of Rev.7:9, they represent the believing Gentiles that go through the great tribulation.

Rev 12 and 13 is the 7 year GT. Then 14:1 says Then I looked, and behold, a Lamb standing on Mount Zion, and with Him one hundred and forty-four thousand, [b]having His Father’s name written on their foreheads.
 

ewq1938

Well-Known Member
Jul 11, 2015
5,994
1,227
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
They are part of it for sure. Christians that still need to "overcome" will have to choose whether to live and take the mark of the beast, or die and refuse the mark.

There is nothing in the text to suggest these Christians need to "overcome". So many describe them like they are second class Christians, barely Christians at all but they are fully saved Christians and are the church and body of Christ.


(Philadelphian Christians will be kept and protected). But it is the "woman" Israel, who the beast is really after.

He fails to reach the woman so he goes after her Christian children. The woman is not unbeliving Israel either. Satan already has people like that and does not go to war with them like he does with Christians.
 

Marty fox

Well-Known Member
Jun 1, 2021
2,302
897
113
54
Vancouver
Faith
Christian
Country
Canada
Once you read all of what he is saying he does... then make sense. Men's doctrines that try to say Satan is already bound today, and that we are in the 1,000 years period of Rev.20 which is 'symbolic only', are easily proven wrong simply because Scripture shows still today Satan is still loose walking upon the earth, roaring as a lion seeking whom he may devour (1 Peter 5:8). And that means we still have the battle against sin with us.

The Rev.20 events have not yet begun today, is what it means. Satan is still not yet bound.
You would be correct if the binding is what you think that it is. Of course satan still roams around and can still tempt us but the key to the binding is the great chain which is the power of the gospel. It is the power of the gospel not us that gives us the power to overcome satan and sin if we choose to receive it
 

robert derrick

Well-Known Member
Apr 13, 2021
7,669
1,418
113
63
Houston, tx
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Pride, or a religious demonic spirit.

Matthew 7:
19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Therefore by their fruits you will know them.

Hosea 6:1-3 is a great prophecy of a 1000 years per day

Come, and let us return to the Lord;
For He has torn, but He will heal us;
He has stricken, but He will bind us up.
2 After two days He will revive us; (2000 years)
On the third day He will raise us up, (1000 millennium)
That we may live in His sight.
3 Let us know,
Let us pursue the knowledge of the Lord.
His going forth is established as the morning;
He will come to us like the rain,
Like the latter and former rain to the earth.
Now that is a good insight. The first verse is them of the smitten nations left for the Lord to rule and shepherd Personally, to teach His law and walk in His paths.

The second is that of spiritual resurrection today and tomorrow.

I believe the main purpose of Jesus ruling physically over the earth, will be to gather in the greatest harvest to Himself.

Now He relies on the ministry of the saints, but then He Himself will be personally ministering to all people, as well as His resurrected saints.

It will be like the disciples that believed by seeing Him resurrected, but over all the earth.
 

1stCenturyLady

Well-Known Member
Jun 26, 2018
5,334
2,165
113
76
Tennessee
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Now that is a good insight. The first verse is them of the smitten nations left for the Lord to rule and shepherd Personally, to teach His law and walk in His paths.

The second is that of spiritual resurrection today and tomorrow.

I believe the main purpose of Jesus ruling physically over the earth, will be to gather in the greatest harvest to Himself.

Now He relies on the ministry of the saints, but then He Himself will be personally ministering to all people, as well as His resurrected saints.

It will be like the disciples that believed by seeing Him resurrected, but over all the earth.
If you are right, unfortunately that will not include all the dead unsaved that will not be resurrected until after the Millennium in the second resurrection.
 

ewq1938

Well-Known Member
Jul 11, 2015
5,994
1,227
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
It is delusional to imagine that Satan is now shut up when the world is PRESENTLY going to Hell in a handbasket.

Which is the Amill Millennium. A cursed, satan ruled world full of the same evil things that have always existed...NO CHANGE AT ALL except maybe WORSE! They also credit Jesus as ruling.
 

Davy

Well-Known Member
Feb 11, 2018
11,767
2,521
113
Southeastern U.S.
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
You would be correct if the binding is what you think that it is. Of course satan still roams around and can still tempt us but the key to the binding is the great chain which is the power of the gospel. It is the power of the gospel not us that gives us the power to overcome satan and sin if we choose to receive it
The Gospel, is a great chain? Where's that written???

Beware of churches that take one verse, or just a piece of a Bible verse, and try to make a whole doctrine out of it. God didn't send those men, they aren't given to understand His Word.

Here is what is literal per God's Word about Satan being bound...

God already pronounced Satan's future destruction in the old world when Satan first rebelled in coveting His Throne. Thus the devil has already been judged and sentenced to perdition, and his angels that rebelled with him. Per John 12:31, many believe that at Christ's crucifixion Satan was then cast out of the world and 'bound'.

John 12:31
31 Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out.
KJV


That above verse Jesus said isn't actually about Satan being 'bound' and cast out of this world. Jesus was pointing to the future at the end of this world when Satan will be cast down to this earth with his angels for the great tribulation. And later in the Book of John He warned about that very matter for the end...

John 14:30
30 Hereafter I will not talk much with you:
for the prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in Me.
KJV


Does that sound like the devil is 'bound' by the cross? No. And Peter confirmed that also, otherwise Peter would not have had to give the 1 Peter 5:8 warning to CHRISTIANS. Please learn to think for yourself.
 

Marty fox

Well-Known Member
Jun 1, 2021
2,302
897
113
54
Vancouver
Faith
Christian
Country
Canada
The Gospel, is a great chain? Where's that written???

Beware of churches that take one verse, or just a piece of a Bible verse, and try to make a whole doctrine out of it. God didn't send those men, they aren't given to understand His Word.

Here is what is literal per God's Word about Satan being bound...

God already pronounced Satan's future destruction in the old world when Satan first rebelled in coveting His Throne. Thus the devil has already been judged and sentenced to perdition, and his angels that rebelled with him. Per John 12:31, many believe that at Christ's crucifixion Satan was then cast out of the world and 'bound'.

John 12:31
31 Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out.
KJV


That above verse Jesus said isn't actually about Satan being 'bound' and cast out of this world. Jesus was pointing to the future at the end of this world when Satan will be cast down to this earth with his angels for the great tribulation. And later in the Book of John He warned about that very matter for the end...

John 14:30
30 Hereafter I will not talk much with you:
for the prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in Me.
KJV


Does that sound like the devil is 'bound' by the cross? No. And Peter confirmed that also, otherwise Peter would not have had to give the 1 Peter 5:8 warning to CHRISTIANS. Please learn to think for yourself.
So Jesus said Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out but you say that Jesus was tal about the future who should I believe?

Did you even read my post?
 

ewq1938

Well-Known Member
Jul 11, 2015
5,994
1,227
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
So Jesus said Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out but you say that Jesus was tal about the future who should I believe?


So you think Jesus judged (GWTJ) the world before he died on the cross?
 

ewq1938

Well-Known Member
Jul 11, 2015
5,994
1,227
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
The Gospel, is a great chain?


Apparently, and where does Amill believe the gospel belongs? In the bottomless pit with satan!

Rev 20:1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
Rev 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
Rev 20:3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
 

No Pre-TB

Well-Known Member
Jan 15, 2022
880
350
63
48
North America
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Does it say that Satan is bound from persecuting people? No. It says he is bound from deceiving people.
You realize that doesn’t make sense.

If someone is in prison, bound and sealed by God, how can he persecute people but not deceive them?

The idea of being sealed is he is powerless and could do nothing. Allowing him to do anything other than deceive and calling his imprisonment by God, sealed, is not logical.

Either he is sealed and completely powerless or he’s not sealed.
 

Marty fox

Well-Known Member
Jun 1, 2021
2,302
897
113
54
Vancouver
Faith
Christian
Country
Canada
Apparently, and where does Amill believe the gospel belongs? In the bottomless pit with satan!

Rev 20:1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
Rev 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
Rev 20:3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
You know that is a ridiculous statement obviously I meant symbolically the term bottomless pit confirms it how could there actually be a bottomless pit?
 
  • Like
Reactions: WPM

WPM

Well-Known Member
May 10, 2022
5,425
2,204
113
USA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
You realize that doesn’t make sense.

If someone is in prison, bound and sealed by God, how can he persecute people but not deceive them?

The idea of being sealed is he is powerless and could do nothing. Allowing him to do anything other than deceive and calling his imprisonment by God, sealed, is not logical.

Either he is sealed and completely powerless or he’s not sealed.

During the Old Testament era, God controlled one single nation whereas Satan controlled the nations (ethnos - the Gentiles) plural.

2 Samuel 7:23-24 says: what one nation in the earth is like thy people, even like Israel, whom God went to redeem for a people to himself, and to make him a name, and to do for you great things and terrible.”

Psalm 135:4 records: “For the LORD hath chosen Jacob unto himself, and Israel for his peculiar treasure.”

Psalm 147:19-20: “He sheweth his word unto Jacob, his statutes and his judgments unto Israel. He hath not dealt so with any nation.”

Amos 3:2 confirms this, saying of Israel: You only have I known of all the families of the earth.”

Salvation was largely kept within the boundaries of one small nation within the Middle East for centuries before the cross. Satan had the rest. The opposite is the case today.

Even during Christ’s earthly ministry, the Gospel had to first go to the Jews. It was largely limited to national Israel. Gentiles were classed as unclean throughout the old covenant ceremonial system. This truth is seen in Matthew 4:8-9 where “the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them; And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me.”

During the temptations of Christ in the desert, Satan offers Jesus the world if He would only bow down before him. Satan was well within his rights to make such an offer since Adam handed over world dominion to him when he allowed himself to be subject to Satan's will.

The parallel passage in Luke 4:5-7 says: “And the devil, taking him up into an high mountain, shewed unto him all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time. And the devil said unto him, All this power will I give thee, and the glory of them: for that is delivered unto me; and to whomsoever I will I give it. If thou therefore wilt worship me, all shall be thine.”

Manifestly, through Adam’s sin, Satan was able to present a legitimate temptation to Christ. The fact the devil had the capability to tempt the Lord with this enticement proves he enjoyed authority over the nations that had to be broken. Ultimately, God permitted Satan to have this authority. But it was Adam that relinquished this rule over the earth in the Fall. After all, this was a definite and a real legitimate temptation. The devil had huge power over this world.

Matthew 4:10 records, “Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.”

The Lord would not win the nations by bowing down to Satan, but by dying on the cross. Christ defeats Satan on the grounds of the Word of God. Christ here quotes Deuteronomy 6:13.

Salvation was largely kept within the boundaries of one small nation within the Middle East for centuries before the cross. Satan had the rest. The opposite is the case today.

Throughout the OT the prophets spoke of "the nations" or "all nations" coming to God at a particular time. The term were interchangeable with the term strangers / heathen and Gentiles.

In Matthew 10:5-6 He commission the disciples with important racial restricts, Go not into the way of the Gentiles ethnos (or), and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not: But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.”

But why? It was still too early for this to happen. The transaction that would eventually defeat the god of the Gentiles – Satan – and unseat him from his unchallenged global reign had still to occur. The cross was central to the curbing of Satan.

What about the story in Matthew 15 where Jesus the coasts of Tyre and Sidon. It says in verse 22, “And, behold, a woman of Canaan came out of the same coasts, and cried unto him, saying, Have mercy on me, O Lord, thou Son of David; my daughter is grievously vexed with a devil. But he answered her not a word. And his disciples came and besought him, saying, Send her away; for she crieth after us. But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel. Then came she and worshipped him, saying, Lord, help me. But he answered and said, It is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it to dogs. And she said, Truth, Lord: yet the dogs eat of the crumbs which fall from their masters' table. Then Jesus answered and said unto her, O woman, great is thy faith: be it unto thee even as thou wilt. And her daughter was made whole from that very hour” (Matthew 15:22-28).

This Gentile woman received the blessing because of her faith and her persistence. She was absolutely determined.

While the earthly ministry of Christ bound Satan, the event that turned things around is repeatedly depicted as the cross. Scripture shows the spiritual curtailing of Satan at the cross. It also depicts the Gentiles generally as being in darkness, bondage and ignorance prior to the cross. However, even though the Gentiles are constantly depicted in Scripture as being in darkness and ignorance before the cross many entered into a personal relationship with God. Just because there were occasional exceptions does not negate these verses. The same is the case in the converse enlightenment. There is no necessity to take this as a wholesale all-inclusive statement.

God controlled one single nation spiritually. Satan controlled the nations plural.

There is no doubt that the Jews were the focus of Christ’s earthly ministry. That situation continued on for a while throughout the book of Acts. But redemption didn’t stop there. His sheep were not limited to the house of Israel. His heart for Israel did not in any way diminish His intention to reach the Gentile nations with salvation. Jesus said prior to the cross, speaking to His Jewish converts, in John 10:14-16, “I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine. As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep. And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.”
 
  • Like
Reactions: Spiritual Israelite