Why Old Eschatologies Should Be Updated

[Eternally Grateful]

You seem to have difficulty understanding investigation, so let me help.

The gifts and the calling are terms associated exclusively with those who have put their faith in Christ.

Upon whom does God bestow His gifts?

Romans 12:6
Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, whether prophecy, let us prophesy according to the proportion of faith;

1 Corinthians 12:1
Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I would not have you ignorant.

1 Corinthians 12:4
Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.

1 Corinthians 12:9
To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;

1 Corinthians 12:28
And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.

1 Corinthians 14:12
Even so ye, forasmuch as ye are zealous of spiritual gifts, seek that ye may excel to the edifying of the church.

God's gifts are bestowed exclusively upon His Beloved Election, His Holy Chosen People: His Church.

To them, and to no others, His gifts are irrevocable (without repentance).


To whom is God's calling directed?

1 Corinthians 1:26
For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:

1 Corinthians 7:20
Let every man abide in the same calling wherein he was called.

Ephesians 1:18
The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,

Ephesians 4:4
There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;

2 Thessalonians 1:11
Wherefore also we pray always for you, that our God would count you worthy of this calling, and fulfil all the good pleasure of his goodness, and the work of faith with power:

2 Timothy 1:9
Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

Hebrews 3:1
Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus;

2 Peter 1:10
Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:


God's calling is directed exclusively to His Beloved Election, His Holy Chosen People: His Church.

To them, and to no others, His calling is irrevocable (without repentance).

funny how you totally ignore the OT

the gift was the land of canaan.

the calling was to the people of Jacob.

the promise was eternal. and irrevocable

That is the context of romans 11..

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Still haven't got Romans 11:29 figured out even after a plethora of Scripture, have you.

Still can't understand "irrevocable" even after a plethora of Scripture, can you.

Which to believe?

Your Scriptureless opinions
or
A plethora of Scripture

Do you need a hint?

irrevocable means it can not be revoked.

God gave the childrten of abraham a plot of land. and said he would be there God and they would be his people.

these same people who Paul said are hated according to the gospel (because at the time they rejected the gospel) but beloved according to the election.

He is not talking about the church there. He is talking about Israel. the same people he called blinded in part. and that one day they would all be saved because they repented. as the OT prophesies said they would..

before you start attacking people on scripture. You need to make sure you have scripture correct..

 

[Eternally Grateful]

The meaning of "all Israel", which is frequently misinterpreted in Romans 11:26, is explained in Romans 9:6-8.

Did you recognize it?

thats not true

romans 9 - 11 is Paul explaining why it is that God did not make a mistake in chosing Israel. Romans 11 is the culmination of that discussion. to show that although Israel is blinded in part (this alone proves that it is national Israel in context. not spiritual Israel) there will come a time, when the age of the gentile is completed. that ALL Israel (blinded or not) will repent and be saved.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

This is not correct, Biblically or historically. Even Josephus knew the 10 tribes of Israel were separate people to the House of Judah.
Those few, maybe a thousand or so, Israelites who did join with Judah after they split, became Jews, As some deceived people still do today.

Your beliefs contradict the Bible, Jesus will divide His faithful Christian peoples into 12 divisions, each called after a son of Jacob. Rev 7:1-9, 14:1-5

This assertion is totally unsupported by scripture. It is entirely the false teaching of the 'rapture' believers, who need the Jews to face the Great Trib, while they sit and watch from heaven. An incredibly pretentious idea, that can never happen.

The apostate, atheistic and Jesus rejecting Israelis, face judgment and punishment and only a remnant will survive. Romans 9:27

The prophets tell us clearly. God will take the 2 sticks and form them together. and they will become one nation again. and never again to be divided.

The two sticks are Joseph in the hand of ephram, and the stick of Judah which are now dry bones (because of their unbelief)

ez 37: 21 “Then say to them, ‘Thus says the Lord God: “Surely I will take the children of Israel from among the nations, wherever they have gone, and will gather them from every side and bring them into their own land; 22 and I will make them one nation in the land, on the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king over them all; they shall no longer be two nations, nor shall they ever be divided into two kingdoms again. 23 They shall not defile themselves anymore with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions; but I will deliver them from all their dwelling places in which they have sinned, and will cleanse them. Then they shall be My people, and I will be their God.

this is not the church. The church was never divided. and made dry bones because of her sin. nor was she scattered thr4oughout all the nations because of her sin.

 

[Randy Kluth]

It is common knowledge that there are not two literal states of Israel. That is the first clue that "Two Israels" is to be understood figuratively.

I then expand upon the two Scriptural expressions "all Israel" and "of Israel", which obviously do not mean two literal states of Israel. That is the second clue that "Two Israels" is to be understood figuratively.

So what's the problem?

The problem is that you insisted there are "two Israels." You've made no distinction between the figurative sense in this and the literal sense--they are indistinguishable.

You're only trying to prove it *must* be taken in a figurative sense because it cannot be taken in an other way--or so you say. But the reality is, you have said there are "two Israels." Why say it if you don't mean it?

 

[Randy Kluth]

funny how you totally ignore the OT

the gift was the land of canaan.

the calling was to the people of Jacob.

the promise was eternal. and irrevocable

That is the context of romans 11..

Absolutely the point! When guys like covenantee claim that all of God's promises are fulfilled in Christ and in the Church they assume that Israel cannot convert to Christianity as a nation. That doesn't have to mean that every individual in the Jewish state becomes a true Christian--it just means the nation, as a whole, decides to repent of its waywardness and convert to the Christian religion.

Throughout NT history, many nations of Europe and in the Americas, for example, have become Christian states. As a whole the people of those states have embraced the Christian religion in place of the previous paganism their peoples had enjoyed prior to this.

Again, this doesn't mean that when entire nations embrace Christianity that every individual in their states become true Christians or act like it. It just means that God is fulfilling a promise He made to Abraham to become father, spiritually, over many nations. This happens when entire nations convert, religiously and ideologically, to Christianity.

The end goal is to make life more conducive to individuals embracing Christ as their Savior and Lord. And it is also to provide a just environment for a society to function in a more Christian way.

In the end God will sort out between the sheep and the goats, and who is fit for eternity. For now, we are just seeing God fulfill promises He has made. And He has clearly promised Israel a land in the Middle East, as well as a day when they will "never again" see their enemies overcome them. My opinion only...

 

[Randy Kluth]

Since the formation of Israel? How can you die unsaved and yet still be eligible for salvation?

I wasn't saying that. You asked how many people in Israel are saved, and I said less than 1%, as a guess. You said I didn't answer the question.

 

[covenantee]

The problem is that you insisted there are "two Israels." You've made no distinction between the figurative sense in this and the literal sense--they are indistinguishable

They are distinguishable to those who understand figurative language.

However, since you do not understand figurative language, it is impossible for you to understand the distinction.

 

[covenantee]

funny how you totally ignore the OT

the gift was the land of canaan.

the calling was to the people of Jacob.

the promise was eternal. and irrevocable

That is the context of romans 11..

In what Bible book, chapter, and verse does the word "irrevocable" appear?

 

[Randy Kluth]

They are distinguishable to those who understand figurative language.

However, since you do not understand figurative language, it is impossible for you to understand the distinction.

You don't represent "people who understand figurative language!" I understand figurative language, and I was told *by you* that there are "two Israels."

Don't use language you don't mean or can't explain. It accomplishes nothing to claim that people understand what you mean.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

In what Bible book, chapter, and verse does the word "irrevocable" appear?

when you see the word ETERNAL. you can assume it is irrevocable

you want to play games.. You just hurting yourself..

When God says he will. he will. otherwise. if he will not keep his own promises. what kind of God is he?

 

[Randy Kluth]

In what Bible book, chapter, and verse does the word "irrevocable" appear?

What an incredibly silly argument!! "Irrevocable" has synonyms or other expressions that mean the same, and they may take place in different contexts. If you wish to claim that God's promises are revocable, or if you wish to claim that Abraham's "Seed" does not represent "Israel," then just say so. You would be wrong, but at least you won't be using such ridiculous arguments!

Would you, for example, find the use of the word "Seed" for anything other than for Christ? Think about the kinds of arguments you're making. They don't hold water.

 

[covenantee]

when you see the word ETERNAL. you can assume it is irrevocable

you want to play games.. You just hurting yourself..

When God says he will. he will. otherwise. if he will not keep his own promises. what kind of God is he?

I didn't ask for assumptions or opinions.

In what Bible book, chapter, and verse does the word "irrevocable" appear?

 

[covenantee]

You don't represent "people who understand figurative language!" I understand figurative language, and I was told *by you* that there are "two Israels."

Don't use language you don't mean or can't explain. It accomplishes nothing to claim that people understand what you mean.

You don't understand figurative language.

That's just evident reality.

 

[covenantee]

What an incredibly silly argument!! "Irrevocable" has synonyms or other expressions that mean the same, and they may take place in different contexts. If you wish to claim that God's promises are revocable, or if you wish to claim that Abraham's "Seed" does not represent "Israel," then just say so. You would be wrong, but at least you won't be using such ridiculous arguments!

Would you, for example, find the use of the word "Seed" for anything other than for Christ? Think about the kinds of arguments you're making. They don't hold water.

I didn't ask for your synonyms or expressions.

In what Bible book, chapter, and verse does the word "irrevocable" appear?

 

[Eternally Grateful]

I didn't ask for assumptions or opinions.

In what Bible book, chapter, and verse does the word "irrevocable" appear?

you know where it appears.

The gifts and calling are irrevocable

Why you fail to comprehend is that every eternal gift that is given is what is irrevocable.

Your trying to twist the word to suit your hatred of Israel..

 

[covenantee]

The gifts and calling are irrevocable

You are correct.

Now let's determine to whom gifts and calling apply.

Please quote two NT verses which refer to gifts, and two NT verses which refer to calling.

 

[Randy Kluth]

I didn't ask for your synonyms or expressions.

In what Bible book, chapter, and verse does the word "irrevocable" appear?

Romans 11:29 - Bible Gateway

www.biblegateway.com

It depends on which English version you rely on? Some versions have "irrevocable," and some say "without repentance," etc. The fact you downplay a variety of English translations shows your narrow minded approach to the concept of God's fidelity to His Word. Once He promises something, it will happen.

The study of the "gifts and calling" which Paul claimed was "irrevocable" leads to God's calling upon His people Israel, to whom He gave the gift of the Law. Some derogate or marginalize the Law in the name of Covenant Theology, but it is unmistakable that both King David and Messiah Jesus viewed the Law as a gift, if only temporary and leading ultimately to final Salvation.

Rom 3.1 Then what advantage has the Jew? Or what is the value of circumcision? 2 Much in every way. To begin with, the Jews are entrusted with the oracles of God. 3 What if some were unfaithful? Does their faithlessness nullify the faithfulness of God? 4 By no means! Let God be true though every man be false, as it is written,
“That thou mayest be justified in thy words,
and prevail when thou art judged.”
Rom 9.4 They are Israelites, and to them belong the sonship, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises; 5 to them belong the patriarchs, and of their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ. God who is over all be blessed for ever. Amen.

The word translated in some places as "irrevocable" comes from the Greek word "ametameleetos."

2 Cor 7.10 10 For godly grief produces a repentance that leads to salvation and brings no regret, but worldly grief produces death.

It indicates that God says "Amen" and does not change His mind. The concept of this is ubiquitous and does not require a single verse to show it.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

You are correct.

Now let's determine to whom gifts and calling apply.

Please quote two NT verses which refer to gifts, and two NT verses which refer to calling.

Or lets stick to context.

Romans 11: 11 I ask then: Did God reject his people? By no means! I am an Israelite myself, a descendant of Abraham, from the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God did not reject his people, whom he foreknew.Don’t you know what Scripture says in the passage about Elijah—how he appealed to God against Israel: 3 “Lord, they have killed your prophets and torn down your altars; I am the only one left, and they are trying to kill me”[a]?4 And what was God’s answer to him? “I have reserved for myself seven thousand who have not bowed the knee to Baal.”[b] 5 So too, at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace. 6 And if by grace, then it cannot be based on works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace.

Context - Gods people. Who? Israel. Where God said there is even now a remnant. Who is the remnant?

Lets continue

11 Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious. 12 But if their transgression means riches for the world, and their loss means riches for the Gentiles, how much greater riches will their full inclusion bring!

1. They are israel, because of their rejection. Salvation has come to the gentiles (you and I)

Pau seperates them from the saved gentiles

13 I am talking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch as I am the apostle to the Gentiles, I take pride in my ministry 14 in the hope that I may somehow arouse my own people to envy and save some of them. 15 For if their rejection brought reconciliation to the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead? 16 If the part of the dough offered as firstfruits is holy, then the whole batch is holy; if the root is holy, so are the branches.

2. Their (Israel) rejection brought salvation to the world.

9 You will say then, “Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in.” 20 Well said.Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either.

3. They are natural branches. Broken off due to unbelief

25 For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own [f]opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And so all Israel will be [g]saved, as it is written:

4. They are blinded in part (unsaved Israel)

5. They will ALL be saved.. at a particular time

28 Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they arebeloved for the sake of the fathers. 29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.

6. They are enemies of the gospel (because of unbelief)

7, they are beloved because of the sake of the fathers, to whome the promises were given (abraham Isaac and Jacob)

the gifts and calling of God are irrevocable

the context is isreal.. I do not need to go to any other passage. It is there in black and white.

You do with it what you will. I must stick to the word

 

[Randy Kluth]

Or lets stick to context.

Romans 11: 11 I ask then: Did God reject his people? By no means! I am an Israelite myself, a descendant of Abraham, from the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God did not reject his people, whom he foreknew.Don’t you know what Scripture says in the passage about Elijah—how he appealed to God against Israel: 3 “Lord, they have killed your prophets and torn down your altars; I am the only one left, and they are trying to kill me”[a]?4 And what was God’s answer to him? “I have reserved for myself seven thousand who have not bowed the knee to Baal.”[b] 5 So too, at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace. 6 And if by grace, then it cannot be based on works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace.

Context - Gods people. Who? Israel. Where God said there is even now a remnant. Who is the remnant?

Lets continue

11 Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious. 12 But if their transgression means riches for the world, and their loss means riches for the Gentiles, how much greater riches will their full inclusion bring!

1. They are israel, because of their rejection. Salvation has come to the gentiles (you and I)

Pau seperates them from the saved gentiles

13 I am talking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch as I am the apostle to the Gentiles, I take pride in my ministry 14 in the hope that I may somehow arouse my own people to envy and save some of them. 15 For if their rejection brought reconciliation to the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead? 16 If the part of the dough offered as firstfruits is holy, then the whole batch is holy; if the root is holy, so are the branches.

2. Their (Israel) rejection brought salvation to the world.

9 You will say then, “Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in.” 20 Well said.Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either.

3. They are natural branches. Broken off due to unbelief

25 For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own [f]opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And so all Israel will be [g]saved, as it is written:

4. They are blinded in part (unsaved Israel)

5. They will ALL be saved.. at a particular time

28 Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they arebeloved for the sake of the fathers. 29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.

6. They are enemies of the gospel (because of unbelief)

7, they are beloved because of the sake of the fathers, to whome the promises were given (abraham Isaac and Jacob)

the gifts and calling of God are irrevocable

the context is isreal.. I do not need to go to any other passage. It is there in black and white.

You do with it what you will. I must stick to the word

You laid this out so beautifully, so perfectly, I don't see how anybody can refute this? However, we should never underestimate the power of narrow-minded dogmatism and bigotry.

I really hated to say that, but what else can you call it? The history of the world is littered with the corpses of hated Jews, discriminated against by so-called "Christians." It was nothing but sheer pride that caused Christians to begin elevating the Catholic Church to the loss of any sense of grace towards Israel.

That's precisely what Paul says--not just me!

Rom 11.13 Now I am speaking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle to the Gentiles, I magnify my ministry 14 in order to make my fellow Jews jealous, and thus save some of them. 15 For if their rejection means the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance mean but life from the dead? 16 If the dough offered as first fruits is holy, so is the whole lump; and if the root is holy, so are the branches.
17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, a wild olive shoot, were grafted in their place to share the richness of the olive tree, 18 do not boast over the branches.