Who did Jesus Die a Ransom for?

[Johann]

@Johann

I don't think that there any need for this kind of condescension....do you? Seriously? I am sorry that this was said to you....Jesus 'called a spade a spade' but he was never mean spirited to those who were humble and teachable.
The Pharisees bore the brunt of his venom, but they deserved every bit of it (Matt 15:7-9)...so did the money changers....but he was God's representative on earth, and we are not in his league.....we are asked to spread Christ's message with a "mild temper and deep respect". (1 Peter 3:15-16) It doesn't mean that we withhold the truth, but there is wisdom in the way we deliver it.

My old Mum used to say, "you catch more flies with honey than you do with vinegar".....If we are to catch flies or fish, we need the right things to attract them.....being demeaning or insulting is not imitating Jesus or the apostles.

Paul's address to the Athenian philosophers at the A·re·opʹa·gus, also teaches us to restrain our tongue when dealing with those whose worship is very different to ours. They never knew how irritated he was to see so much idolatry. (Acts 1:16, 19-31)

Thanks @Aunty Jane
Johann.

 

[face2face]

5. Redemption was not a price paid to Satan (i.e., Medieval theology), but the reconciliation of God's word and God's justice with God's love and full provision in Christ. At the cross peace was restored, human rebellion was forgiven, the image of God in mankind is now fully functional again in intimate fellowship!

6. There is still a future aspect of redemption (cf. Rom. 8:23; Eph. 1:14; 4:30), which involves our resurrection bodies and personal intimacy with the Triune God Our resurrected bodies will be like His (cf. 1 John 3:2). He had a physical body, but with an extra dimensional aspect. It is hard to define the paradox of 1 Cor. 15:12-19 with 1 Cor. 15:35-58. Obviously there is a physical, earthly body and there will be a heavenly, spiritual body. Jesus had both!

I answer for @Bob Estey whom you dismiss as "insignificant"-we are all here to learn-hopefully-a cursory reading on this post should show us there is MUCH to learn and a deeper appreciation of what our Lord Christ Jesus has done for US-Perfect Tense.
Johann.

@everyone, you really need to read Johann carefully.

Firstly, you must know its not his work or words.
Secondly, he supports theologians who impose dualism onto the Lord's nature, which is nowhere taught in Scripture.

Quote: Obviously there is a physical, earthly body and there will be a heavenly, spiritual body. Jesus had both!

Whats obvicous, is the lack of Scriputural support - this is plain weak!

Thirdly, if you have time check the supporting quote references, as these can often be very poor.

Overall unimpressed.

Another "puffed up" response!

F2F

 

[face2face]

Romans 3:24

and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.

The word for "redemption" is the Greek apolutroseos, from the verb apolutroo, which signifies to redeem by paying the full (apo) ransom (lutron) price.

It has the idea of a release from captivity through the purchase of freedom.

This has been obtained by the sacrifice of Christ in which he has abrogated the law of condemnation for himself, and those who believe and obey him. The redemption from sin's flesh seen accomplished in the Lord, is also available to his people.

For Christ himself: Romans 6:9 For we know that since Christ was raised from the dead, he cannot die again; death no longer has mastery (dominion) over him. (ie. held in slavery)

The law of condemnation is over all mankind, including the Christ, however God condemned sin his the nature of His Son when He crucified him on the cross. (Romans 8:1-3)

Now to the question of who is saved: Paul answers in Galatians 5

“And those who are Christ's have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.”

They follow in Christ's representative example!

F2F

 

[Johann]

@everyone, you really need to read Johann carefully.

Firstly, you must know its not his work or words.
Secondly, he supports theologians who impose dualism onto the Lord's nature, which is nowhere taught in Scripture.

Quote: Obviously there is a physical, earthly body and there will be a heavenly, spiritual body. Jesus had both!

Whats obvicous, is the lack of Scriputural support - this is plain weak!

Thirdly, if you have time check the supporting quote references, as these can often be very poor.

Overall unimpressed.

Another "puffed up" response!

F2F

Guess what-if you are unimpressed-I am impressed by your un-impression- good for you!
Johann.

 

[face2face]

Guess what-if you are unimpressed-I am impressed by your un-impression- good for you!
Johann.

Providing the true Gospel of God is presented it matters not how one feels.
F2F

 

[Johann]

Providing the true Gospel of God is presented it matters not how one feels.
F2F

And I guess you have it all "tucked"-
Johann.

 

[face2face]

And I guess you have it all "tucked"-
Johann.

Enough to know what you post most of the time is false teachings based on the creeds of men, philosophise's at best.
We proved that with 1 Corinthians 15:45...have you looked into Pauls teaching on Christ being the Second Adam?

 

[Johann]

Enough to know what you post most of the time is false teachings based on the creeds of men, philosophise's at best.
We proved that with 1 Corinthians 15:45...have you looked into Pauls teaching on Christ being the Second Adam?

Completely disagree with you.
Johann.

 

[face2face]

Completely disagree with you.
Johann.

Well, I'm glad for now it's you and not Utley. All Adams are created Johann - you know this is truth...but are in a state of denial.
You need a Paul at Damascus moment...then into the wilderness to learn of the true Christ.
F2F

 

[Ritajanice]

You need a Paul at Damascus moment...then into the wilderness to learn of the true Christ.

This part really spoke to my heart/ Amen!....Praise God.

 

[Jack]

Completely disagree with you.
Johann.

face2face believes angels created us.

 

[Johann]

face2face believes angels created us.

Well, well-thank you so much @Jack.
God bless you brother.
Johann.

 

[Jack]

If we take the belief that the ancient Jews were taught about death, then we see a completely different scenario to what present day Jews and Christendom have adopted from pagan beliefs and practices.

You highlight four different words that are all translated "hell" in some Bibles. But is that an accurate translation and does the Bible itself contradict the existence of an afterlife, as it is believed today? In my studies, I can tell you there is no similarity.

"Sheol/hades" obviously mean the same thing because in the Septuagint "sheol" is translated "hades". Often called "the abode of the dead" or the place where the dead go. So what was "sheol" to an ancient Jew?

Solomon tells us that..."For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing at all, nor do they have any more reward, because all memory of them is forgotten. 6 Also, their love and their hate and their jealousy have already perished, and they no longer have any share in what is done under the sun. . . . .Whatever your hand finds to do, do with all your might, for there is no work nor planning nor knowledge nor wisdom in the Grave, where you are going."

Seems clear enough....what do the dead know? "nothing". And future generations will forget about them. But how is it that their "love" has "perished" along with their negative emotions?

Solomon also tell us that the humans have no superiority over the animals in death...
"I also said in my heart about the sons of men that the true God will test them and show them that they are like animals, 19 for there is an outcome for humans and an outcome for animals; they all have the same outcome. As the one dies, so the other dies; and they all have but one spirit. So man has no superiority over animals, for everything is futile. 20 All are going to the same place. They all come from the dust, and they all are returning to the dust."

Adam was never told about an afterlife of any kind. He was told only that death meant a return to the dust...nothing more.
Psalm 115:16-17...
“As for the heavens, they belong to Jehovah,
But the earth he has given to the sons of men.
17 The dead do not praise Jah;
Nor do any who go down into the silence of death.”

Jews had no belief in an afterlife from their scripture.

Now when Jesus spoke of “Gehenna” it was referenced as a place where the wicked were sent...and where “the worms do not die and the fires do not go out.”
He told the Pharisees that they would ‘not flee the judgment of Gehenna’. What was Jesus’ referring to, that his Jewish audience understood?
As you brought out, Gehenna was actually a physical place (a rubbish dump outside the walls of Jerusalem) that came to represent a place where garbage was disposed of.....even human garbage. The carcasses of animals as well as those considered unworthy of a decent burial, had their bodies disposed of in this place where fires were kept burning day and night by the addition of brimstone (Sulfur).....and what the flames missed, the maggots finished off.
Without a burial tomb with the person’s name and lineage inscribed, Jews believed that God would not remember them in the resurrection....that they would remain in death forever.

There is no physical suffering in Gehenna for the simple reason that nothing alive ever went in there.

Because there is no “life after death” as it is taught in Christendom, there is no place where the dead go except “Sheol”...which is the common grave of mankind. Hades gives up its dead according to Rev 20: 13-14......”And the sea gave up the dead in it, and death and the Grave (hades) gave up the dead in them, and they were judged individually according to their deeds. 14 And death and the Grave (hades) were hurled into the lake of fire.This means the second death, the lake of fire.”

Because he said....”And do not become fearful of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul; rather, fear him who can destroy both soul and body in Ge·henʹna.”

Gehenna is a place where both body and soul are “destroyed”, not tortured.

“Tartarus” is a condition of restraint rather than a place of torment. The demons alone are said to be in this place, as a result of God bringing the flood in Noah’s day, and forcing them back to the spirit realm where he restrained them in figurative chains. (2 Pet 2:4)

I don’t believe that the scriptures support “life after death” as in the “soul” departing the body at death. No scripture says that the “soul” is a disembodied spirit....it is always a living, breathing creature.
Resurrection is a return to life rather than a continuation of it.....this is what the Bible teaches.

I truly doubt that those who spend eternity the "everlasting fire" that Jesus warned us about will care what the name of the place is. Hell will be filled with people who don't believe in the eternal Hell fire.

Revelation 20
10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

 

[Jack]

Yes he did, because all of Adam's children have the opportunity to live forever, if they are obedient to God and his Christ....but that does not include Adam, who committed a sin that was not forgivable. Jesus did not die for the murderer.

Who told you all that. Certainly not the Christian Bible!

 

[Johann]

I truly doubt that those who spend eternity the "everlasting fire" that Jesus warned us about will care what the name of the place is. Hell will be filled with people who don't believe in the eternal Hell fire.

Revelation 20
10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

Yes-it stands written-and I am not going to argue re the reality of what stands written.
Johann.

 

[Keturah]

RANSOM/REDEEM

I. OLD TESTAMENT

A. There are primarily two Hebrew legal terms which convey this concept.

1. Ga'al (BDB 145 I, KB 169 I), which basically means "to free by means of a price paid." A form of the term go'el adds to the concept a personal intermediary, usually a family member (i.e., kinsman redeemer).

This cultural aspect of the right to buy back objects, animals, land (cf. Leviticus 25,27), or relatives (cf. Ruth 4:14; Isa. 29:22) is transferred theologically to YHWH's deliverance of Israel from Egypt (cf. Exod. 6:6; 15:13; Ps. 74:2; 77:15; Jer. 31:11). He becomes "the Redeemer" (cf. Job 19:25; Ps. 19:14; 78:35; Pro. 23:11; Isa. 41:14; 43:14; 44:6,24; 47:4; 48:17; 49:7,26; 54:5,8; 59:20; 60:16; 63:16; Jer. 50:34).

2. Padah (BDB 804, KB 911), which basically means "to deliver" or "to rescue."

a. the redemption of the firstborn (Exod. 13:13-15 and Num. 18:15-17)

b. physical redemption is contrasted with spiritual redemption (Ps. 49:7,8,15)

c. YHWH will redeem Israel from their sin and rebellion (Ps. 130:7-8)

B. The theological concept involves several related items.

1. There is a need, a bondage, a forfeiting, an imprisonment.

a. physical

b. social

c. spiritual (cf. Ps. 130:8)

2. A price must be paid for freedom, release, and restoration.

a. of the nation of Israel (cf. Deut. 7:8)

b. of the individual (cf. Job 19:25-27; 33:28; Isaiah 53)

3. Someone must act as intermediary and benefactor. In ga'al this one is usually a family member or near kin (i.e., go'el, BDB 145).

4. YHWH often describes Himself in familial terms.

a. Father

b. Husband

c. Near Kin Redeemer/Avenger Redemption was secured through YHWH's personal agency; a price was paid, and redemption was achieved!

II. NEW TESTAMENT

A. There are several terms used to convey the theological concept.

1. Agorazō (cf. 1 Cor. 6:20; 7:23; 2 Pet. 2:1; Rev. 5:9; 14:3-4). This is a commercial term which reflects a price paid for something. We are blood-bought people who do not control our own lives. We belong to Christ.

2. Exagorazō (cf. Gal. 3:13; 4:5; Eph. 5:16; Col. 4:5). This is also a commercial term. It reflects Jesus' substitutionary death on our behalf. Jesus bore the "curse" of a performance-based law (i.e., Mosaic Law, cf. Eph. 2:14-16; Col. 2:14), which sinful humans could not accomplish. He bore the curse (cf. Deut. 21:23) for us all (cf. Mark 10:45; 2 Cor. 5:21)! In Jesus, God's justice and love merge into full forgiveness, acceptance, and access!

3. Luō, "to set free"

a. Lutron, "a price paid" (cf. Matt. 20:28; Mark 10:45). These are powerful words from Jesus' own mouth concerning the purpose of His coming, to be the Savior of the world by paying a sin-debt He did not owe (cf. John 1:29).

b. Lutroō, "to release"

(1) to redeem Israel (Luke 24:21)

(2) to give Himself to redeem and purify a people (Titus 2:14)

(3) to be a sinless substitute (1 Pet. 1:18-19)

c. Lutrōsis, "redemption," "deliverance," or "liberation"

(1) Zacharias' prophecy about Jesus, Luke 1:68

(2) Anna's praise to God for Jesus, Luke 2:38

(3) Jesus' better, once offered sacrifice, Heb. 9:12

4. Apolytrōsis

a. redemption at the Second Coming (cf. Acts 3:19-21)

(1) Luke 21:28

(2) Romans 8:23

(3) Ephesians 1:14; 4:30

(4) Hebrews 9:15

b. redemption in Christ's death

(1) Romans 3:24

(2) 1 Corinthians 1:30

(3) Ephesians 1:7

(4) Colossians 1:14

5. Antilytron (cf. 1 Tim. 2:6). This is a crucial text (as is Titus 2:14) which links release to Jesus' substitutionary death on the cross. He is the one and only acceptable sacrifice, the one who dies for "all" (cf. John 1:29; 3:16-17; 4:42; 1 Tim. 2:4; 4:10; Titus 2:11; 2 Pet. 3:9; 1 John 2:2; 4:14).

B. The theological concept in the NT.

1. Mankind is enslaved to sin (cf. John 8:34; Rom. 3:10-18,23; 6:23).

2. Mankind's bondage to sin has been revealed by the OT Mosaic Law (cf. Galatians 3) and Jesus' Sermon on the Mount (cf. Matthew 5-7). Human performance has become a death sentence (cf. Col. 2:14).

3. Jesus, the sinless lamb of God, has come and died in our place (cf. Mark 10:45; John 1:29; 2 Cor. 5:21). We have been purchased from sin so that we might serve God (cf. Romans 6).

4. By implication both YHWH and Jesus are "near kin" who act on our behalf. This continues the familial metaphors (i.e., father, husband, son, brother, near kin).

5. Redemption was not a price paid to Satan (i.e., Medieval theology), but the reconciliation of God's word and God's justice with God's love and full provision in Christ. At the cross peace was restored, human rebellion was forgiven, the image of God in mankind is now fully functional again in intimate fellowship!

6. There is still a future aspect of redemption (cf. Rom. 8:23; Eph. 1:14; 4:30), which involves our resurrection bodies and personal intimacy with the Triune God Our resurrected bodies will be like His (cf. 1 John 3:2). He had a physical body, but with an extra dimensional aspect. It is hard to define the paradox of 1 Cor. 15:12-19 with 1 Cor. 15:35-58. Obviously there is a physical, earthly body and there will be a heavenly, spiritual body. Jesus had both!

I answer for @Bob Estey whom you dismiss as "insignificant"-we are all here to learn-hopefully-a cursory reading on this post should show us there is MUCH to learn and a deeper appreciation of what our Lord Christ Jesus has done for US-Perfect Tense.
Johann.

@everyone, you really need to read Johann carefully.

Firstly, you must know its not his work or words.
Secondly, he supports theologians who impose dualism onto the Lord's nature, which is nowhere taught in Scripture.

Quote: Obviously there is a physical, earthly body and there will be a heavenly, spiritual body. Jesus had both!

Whats obvicous, is the lack of Scriputural support - this is plain weak!

Thirdly, if you have time check the supporting quote references, as these can often be very poor.

Overall unimpressed.

Another "puffed up" response!

F2F

@face2face

There is nothing WRONG nor HIDDEN in any that @Johann has stated in above post.

Maybe a better admonishment would be ALL really NEED to read & study the WORD OF GOD ,.......MORE C.A.R.E.F.U.L.L.Y !!!!!!

 

[Keturah]

face2face believes angels created us.

How do you know this ...plz?

 

[face2face]

@face2face

There is nothing WRONG nor HIDDEN in any that @Johann has stated in above post.

Maybe a better admonishment would be ALL really NEED to read & study the WORD OF GOD ,.......MORE C.A.R.E.F.U.L.L.Y !!!!!!

Hi Keturah, I get you want to defend him, but I've been watching him copy and paste large volumes of commentaries for a long time now, most of which, is full of error, as recently proved in another thread recently. You read that thread BTW, and I note you have not entered the discussion for you also have doubts (possibly) about the Last Adam...and you should! I'm sure Johann is doing his homework behind the scenes - he's no dummy, and one who has studied commentaries for 40 years eventually must come into the Light - it would be cruel to him him there in darkness.
F2F

 

[Keturah]

Hi Keturah, I get you want to defend him, but I've been watching him copy and paste large volumes of commentaries for a long time now, most of which, is full of error, as recently proved in another thread recently. You read that thread BTW, and I note you have not entered the discussion for you also have doubts (possibly) about the Last Adam...and you should! I'm sure Johann is doing his homework behind the scenes - he's no dummy, and one who has studied commentaries for 40 years eventually must come into the Light - it would be cruel to him him there in darkness.
F2F

I defend truth when I see / hear it.

The actions of folks to either free-hand, copy / paste or however they write is their choice. I have done both!

I have enough discernment to recognize the biblical truth from lies of satan!

I have refrained from the thread on Romans, first I have seen no error in the OP, secondly, I knew there would be much controversy expounded related to the issues of said book ie, law vs grace, flesh vs Spirit & I chose to not heap upon myself more angst with folks on this site .

Lastly & I stress this vehemently; DO NOT PRESUME TO KNOW ANY OF MY REASONS FOR POSTING NOR REFRAINING FROM POSTING on this site, tyvm!

 

[face2face]

I defend truth when I see / hear it.

Okay.

The actions of folks to either free-hand, copy / paste or however they write is their choice. I have done both!

Other than the copy-write issues which you know exist. I like you will defend truth with the same vigor as I read or hear it.

I have enough discernment to recognize the biblical truth from lies of satan!

I would question your knowledge of who satan is as questionable.

I have refrained from the thread on Romans, first I have seen no error in the OP, secondly, I knew there would be much controversy expounded related to the issues of said book ie, law vs grace, flesh vs Spirit & I chose to not heap upon myself more angst with folks on this site .

Feel free to share anytime!

Lastly & I stress this vehemently; DO NOT PRESUME TO KNOW ANY OF MY REASONS FOR POSTING NOR REFRAINING FROM POSTING on this site, tyvm!

vehemently you say.
I'm not one for emotional outbursts - the reasons why you post are entirely up to you...I noticed you chimed in and were reading the thread but remained silent. If as you say you defend truth when you see it why didn't you speak up about Christ being the last Adam?

Am I to presume you understood the truth and remained silent?

F2F