Preterism misrepresents Scripture
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I have never been on to really care much about ‘ism’ and there is a scale board of where ‘isms’ may fall to the extremism which brings forth the basic setup.
“Even to consider evidence of such matters is stupid”,
Like Pretrism (there are many ways looked in by the logic of; “looking in the past”), that doesnt misreprsent anything….
Its a “viewpoint” that most disagree with; but that doesnt mean that person is not a christian or wrong in having faith and trusting God and having hope for resurrection after thus in the spiritual realm.
There is a belief in pretrism i do know of which involves jesus coming back spiritually, but I disagree with them on that and truly in faith believe Jesus came and was seen and saved the people that were going through the plagues that was released upon the land in that day, before total destruction of Jerusalem, and surrounding towns.
They say “the wailing wall” is part of the temple, i disagree with those people too… Jerusalm was destroyed and left in ruins. Lost everything, with 1,000,000 Jews dead.
And people say oh hitler killed more people than that… i doubt it, and the Jews had this promise of wrath that was gonnna be let out by God since John the Baptist and Malachi before him and Jesus during and after meeting with John.; and a new heaven and earth was established, which is where everyone lives in the Garden of Eden; choosing to have faith; love God and love others.
With the new connection to the Father through Yeshua, given the spirit by God.
Also anyone who has faith today are part of spiritual isreal or heavenly Jerusalem; the Heavenly Kingdom; (becoming adopted in Christ) and those disciples of Christ show love in the agape sense towards others when asking God to help you by the spirit.
Thank you to subject topic, @WPM.
“Even to consider evidence of such matters is stupid”,
Like Pretrism (there are many ways looked in by the logic of; “looking in the past”), that doesnt misreprsent anything….
Its a “viewpoint” that most disagree with; but that doesnt mean that person is not a christian or wrong in having faith and trusting God and having hope for resurrection after thus in the spiritual realm.
There is a belief in pretrism i do know of which involves jesus coming back spiritually, but I disagree with them on that and truly in faith believe Jesus came and was seen and saved the people that were going through the plagues that was released upon the land in that day, before total destruction of Jerusalem, and surrounding towns.
They say “the wailing wall” is part of the temple, i disagree with those people too… Jerusalm was destroyed and left in ruins. Lost everything, with 1,000,000 Jews dead.
And people say oh hitler killed more people than that… i doubt it, and the Jews had this promise of wrath that was gonnna be let out by God since John the Baptist and Malachi before him and Jesus during and after meeting with John.; and a new heaven and earth was established, which is where everyone lives in the Garden of Eden; choosing to have faith; love God and love others.
With the new connection to the Father through Yeshua, given the spirit by God.
Also anyone who has faith today are part of spiritual isreal or heavenly Jerusalem; the Heavenly Kingdom; (becoming adopted in Christ) and those disciples of Christ show love in the agape sense towards others when asking God to help you by the spirit.
Thank you to subject topic, @WPM.
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Timtofly
Well-Known Member
Can you name one pre-mill who has this perspective: one must be bodily resurrected in order to have part in the first resurrection.
The first resurrection is physical. So no one must be physically resurrected to avoid the second death. The simple point is those who are physically resurrected do not face the judgment and the second death. In fact one does not have to be spiritually born first to face the second death. The spiritual death being born into Adam's dead corruptible flesh is the default state all the way to the LOF.
Certainly one does not have to experience spiritual birth prior to spiritual death. Just being born into the human race makes the second death a reality. The default spiritual condition is constant death. The second death just makes that spiritual death permanent.
Being born into God's family is the second birth that relates to one's spiritual condition. Of course the second birth removes one from the state of spiritual death into spiritual life, never to face death again for the spiritual aspect of life. One cannot spiritually die after this spiritual birth. The spiritual birth is as permanent as the physical birth, no?
Even in the OT, physical death was not referred to as death directly for the redeemed. The term sleep was used. David called it the valley of the shadow of death. Paul pointed out that the Cross was the end of that reality. Not some future singular resurrection. That is why you fail to grasp the firstfruits plural point Paul was making in 1 Corinthians 15. When you claim Christ was the only firstfruits, you are implying Christ needed to be made alive, out of Adam's dead corruptible flesh, being a sinner. Paul was giving the order of humanity being made alive, not the order of Resurrection, even if both words describe the same thing. Those alive on earth need to be resurrected out of Adam's dead corruptible flesh, even if spiritually born again. Those who have shed Adam's dead corruptible flesh do not need a resurrection. They are not dead, spiritually nor physically. No one tasted death after the Cross, not even physically. If physically death was sleep in the OT, and they went to Abraham's bosom, it cannot even be called sleep now that the redeemed go directly to Paradise. It is neither physical death, nor sleep. It is eternal life and they are enjoying it physically in Paradise. That is what becoming the firstfruits means.
Ephesians 4:7-11.
"But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ. Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things. ) And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;"
Paul's point in 1 Corinthians was not about a future single resurrection. Nor did Paul say a resurrection of the OT saints had not occurred. Paul was arguing for a physical resurrection over a spiritual resurrection.
"Therefore whether it were I or they, so we preach, and so ye believed. Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead? But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen: And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain."
Then the word order means, tagma: that which has been arranged in order, spec. a division, rank.
Paul did not declare that all would be made alive at some future moment in time. This does not even change with this point Paul made.
"Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed."
Many want to combine this verse with others to prove a separate point other than the one Paul is specifically stating in this whole chapter. They want to literally change the direction Paul was going, to make a biased interpretation work. Those alive at the Second Coming are the last of the dead to be changed, that is made alive in Christ, as Paul is stating that Adam's dead corruptible flesh needs to be made alive.
Each in their own order starting with the firstfruits of the Cross in Christ, all the OT redeemed. The church harvest is ongoing since the Cross. Then those alive at the Second Coming. Paul does not mention a resurrection here, and then moves on to the end. So why deny the firstfruits were the OT redeemed resurrected at the Cross? Paul is not ruling that out. He used the word order as if they already understood a resurrection had occurred. Then Paul explains that Jesus must rule until all of creation is made alive in Christ. That is still the point of being made alive. Even creation groans under the result of sin and death. So there is not even a hint in this chapter of one singular future resurrection. All have been resurrected into Christ at the Cross. The OT physically, and the future church spiritually to never face the state of physical death ever. We don't wait as souls in sleep like the OT did. Paul was declaring that the physical resurrection was wrapped up in the firstfruits in Christ. Christ became death, so all would become Life in Christ the firstfruits.
Then the point is not that a body stops being physical. The point is that one body is from Adam, the physical, and one body is from God, the spiritual. But a body is still physical, just no longer temporal nor corruptible. Paul makes that clear in 2 Corinthians 5. One physical body is fron Adam of earth. The other is from God of heavenly origin. The old does not change. The old returns to dust, and we get a new physical body from God.
There is only one creation both spiritual and physical. The problem is we are spiritually dead, so spiritually blind as well. That is why we have the Holy Spirit as a guide to what is spiritual. There is really not a contrast between physical and spiritual. There is only spiritual blindness. The contrast is between temporal and permanent. As well as corruptible and incorruptible.
Even Jesus said at the Second Coming, all would be gathered from heaven ie Paradise, not from sheol or death in some resurrection. Why would Paul declare something foreign to what Jesus taught?
Arthur81
Well-Known Member
The etymology of "preterist" -
"one who favors the past, one whose chief interest is in the past," 1864, from preter- "before" + -ist. As a theological term from 1843, "one who holds that the Apocalyptic prophecies have been nearly or entirely fulfilled" (opposed to futurist)."
www.etymonline.com
The use of "preterist" theologically did not begin until 1843. It was not all uncommon prior to 1843 to understand Matthew 24:1-35 as applying solely to that generation then living who saw the temple destroyed in 70 AD.
Methodist, Joseph Benson, died 1821
Mt 24:34 - "It is to me a wonder,” says Bishop Newton, “how any man can refer part of the foregoing discourse to the destruction of Jerusalem, and part to the end of the world, or any other distant event, when it is said so positively here in the conclusion, All these things shall be fulfilled in this generation. And it seems as if our Lord had been aware of some such misapplication of his words, by adding yet greater force and emphasis to his affirmation, Matthew 24:35, Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away"
Reformed, John Calvin, died 1564
Mt. 24:34 - "The meaning therefore is: 'This prophecy does not relate to evils that are distant, and which posterity will see after the lapse of many centuries, but which are now hanging over you, and ready to fall in one mass, so that there is no part of it which the present generation will not experience.”
Baptist, John Gill, died 1771
On Mt 24:34 - "not anything that is said before, relates to the second coming of Christ, the day of judgment, and end of the world; but that all belong to the coming of the son of man, in the destruction of Jerusalem, and to the end of the Jewish state."
Anglican, Robert Hawker, died 1827
On Mt 24:34"the limitation of those events, to the then generation, in which Christ predicted them, is a plain proof to what they referred. For it was not full forty years after, when Jerusalem wan destroyed; so that consequently many lived to see the accomplishment."
Presbyterian, Matthew Henry, died 1714
On Mt 24:34 "As to these things, the wars, seductions, and persecutions, here foretold, and especially the ruin of the Jewish nation; "This generation shall not pass away, till all these things be fulfilled (Matthew 24:34); there are those now alive, that shall see Jerusalem destroyed, and the Jewish church brought to an end." Because it might seem strange, he backs it with a solemn asseveration; "Verily, I say unto you. You may take my word for it, these things are at the door." Christ often speaks of the nearness of that desolation, the more to affect people, and quicken them to prepare for it."
It is clear that those who wish to force upon Matthew 24 the idea a 7-year tribulation period to our future in 2023 are modernists, and not historically and biblically orthodox. That silly dispensationalist idea is modern heresy.
"one who favors the past, one whose chief interest is in the past," 1864, from preter- "before" + -ist. As a theological term from 1843, "one who holds that the Apocalyptic prophecies have been nearly or entirely fulfilled" (opposed to futurist)."
preterist | Search Online Etymology Dictionary
The online etymology dictionary (etymonline) is the internet's go-to source for quick and reliable accounts of the origin and history of English words, phrases, and idioms. It is professional enough to satisfy academic standards, but accessible enough to be used by anyone.
www.etymonline.com
The use of "preterist" theologically did not begin until 1843. It was not all uncommon prior to 1843 to understand Matthew 24:1-35 as applying solely to that generation then living who saw the temple destroyed in 70 AD.
Methodist, Joseph Benson, died 1821
Mt 24:34 - "It is to me a wonder,” says Bishop Newton, “how any man can refer part of the foregoing discourse to the destruction of Jerusalem, and part to the end of the world, or any other distant event, when it is said so positively here in the conclusion, All these things shall be fulfilled in this generation. And it seems as if our Lord had been aware of some such misapplication of his words, by adding yet greater force and emphasis to his affirmation, Matthew 24:35, Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away"
Reformed, John Calvin, died 1564
Mt. 24:34 - "The meaning therefore is: 'This prophecy does not relate to evils that are distant, and which posterity will see after the lapse of many centuries, but which are now hanging over you, and ready to fall in one mass, so that there is no part of it which the present generation will not experience.”
Baptist, John Gill, died 1771
On Mt 24:34 - "not anything that is said before, relates to the second coming of Christ, the day of judgment, and end of the world; but that all belong to the coming of the son of man, in the destruction of Jerusalem, and to the end of the Jewish state."
Anglican, Robert Hawker, died 1827
On Mt 24:34"the limitation of those events, to the then generation, in which Christ predicted them, is a plain proof to what they referred. For it was not full forty years after, when Jerusalem wan destroyed; so that consequently many lived to see the accomplishment."
Presbyterian, Matthew Henry, died 1714
On Mt 24:34 "As to these things, the wars, seductions, and persecutions, here foretold, and especially the ruin of the Jewish nation; "This generation shall not pass away, till all these things be fulfilled (Matthew 24:34); there are those now alive, that shall see Jerusalem destroyed, and the Jewish church brought to an end." Because it might seem strange, he backs it with a solemn asseveration; "Verily, I say unto you. You may take my word for it, these things are at the door." Christ often speaks of the nearness of that desolation, the more to affect people, and quicken them to prepare for it."
It is clear that those who wish to force upon Matthew 24 the idea a 7-year tribulation period to our future in 2023 are modernists, and not historically and biblically orthodox. That silly dispensationalist idea is modern heresy.
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
I don't know. You tell me. I never referenced "a physical, spiritual body".
I never claimed that. Are you sure you read my post carefully? You are completely misrepresenting my view.
I never said they are the same body. Paul said our bodies will be CHANGED. They will be changed from natural to spiritual bodies. I have never said otherwise.
Paul never uses the word "physical" when contrasting the natural and spiritual body, so why are you doing that? We don't know exactly what a spiritual body is like. What we do know is that it is an immortal and incorruptible body. And, according to Paul, it will be glorious and powerful as well.
Why are you calling our immortal and incorruptible bodies "physical"? Paul said our bodies will be changed at the last trumpet. Yes, they will be changed to be immortal and incorruptible, but Paul indicated that they will be spiritual bodies. He didn't say anything about our immortal bodies being physical, though we may have the ability to take on physical form.
I never said that we will be resurrected "a spiritual physical body". You are not getting my point. Paul was contrasting our current NATURAL bodies with the SPIRITUAL bodies we will have when we are changed at the last trumpet which is when Jesus comes again. We don't know exactly what a spiritual body is like yet.
1 John 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
I'm not sure why you are thinking you know everything about a spiritual body when we won't find that out until Jesus comes again and we see Him as He is. And we will have a spiritual, immortal body like He already has at that point.
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
Are you serious? All pre-mills have that perspective because all pre-mills believe that the first resurrection refers to a mass bodily resurrection of believers. Can you name one pre-mill who does not have that perspective? Do you not have that perspective? If so, tell me your understanding of how someone has part in the first resurrection.
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
I asked "Do you believe that Jesus will return bodily in the FUTURE?"? You did not answer that question. Instead, you indicated that you believe He returned bodily in the PAST. You seem to be a full preterist.
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
Paul never indicated what you said in your last sentence here.
Instead, he said this:
1 Cor 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
He indicated that our natural body will be raised a spiritual body, not that our spirit will be raised a spiritual body, as you are saying. The natural body will be raised a spiritual body at the last trumpet when Jesus returns.
It was future for them. In the context of the Epistles, they were waiting. (Unless you may suggest that I am reading it wrong).
Did he come? I believe so by faith.
I dont even know what full preterist all believe by the way. I just believe by faith that Jesus Christ came and did what he said he would do. There is an extereme side to that case, surely.
You know like Extereme Christian Baptist, or something to that nature.
What you said is "Our natural bodies die and when Jesus returns He will raise them as spiritual bodies." Let me rephrase the question. What do you mean when you say our natural bodies will be raised as spiritual bodies?
Mankind consists of spirit, which is the breath of life we receive from God, and a body made from the dust of the earth. Together at creation man became a living soul. (See Gen 2:7) After physical death of a believer the spirit leaves the mortal, natural body of death and the spirit in man returns to God who gave it ALIVE through the Holy Spirit in those who died in Christ. We shall never be whole again, having both body of flesh, and spirit that gives life to the body until our body is reunited with our spirit that returns when Christ comes again. Our bodies do not become a spiritual body, we become whole with body together with spirit, once again living souls. Our bodies cannot be alive without a spirit to give them life. But the spirit in man that has been born again of the Spirit from Christ NEVER dies. Which is why Paul says when our body is dead and buried, the spirit in those who are of faith in Christ is raised a spiritual body. Believers die a natural body, but since the life we receive through Christ is ETERNAL we are raised a spiritual body.
In the physical resurrection when the last trump sounds our bodies shall be changed from mortal to immortal and corruptible to incorruptible, and through our eternal spirit that returns with Christ, our physical bodies shall once again be as God created them in the beginning without sin and death. Then to be an immortal physical body of the dust of the earth, with life from our eternal spirit, again complete "living souls".
Why would you believe the physical bodies resurrected will be raised "as spiritual bodies"? Heaven was created to be the realm of spiritual beings (Father, Son, Holy Ghost, as well as the angels of heaven), of which we are when our body dies. The earth was created to be the realm of physical beings (mankind, animals, birds, fish etc) of which man will once again be when the last trump sounds.
I will respond to the other points also, but for now it is easier to reply in part.
How does Paul, and further how would you define a physical body? Is it not the natural body that comes from the dust of the earth, and is like the first Adam, earthy and not heavenly? Why does Paul say that just as we bear the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly?
Yes, we do know what the spiritual body is! It is celestial/heavenly as are spirits in heaven (1Cor 15:40). To be raised a spiritual body means to be raised non-carnal with supernatural spiritual life, not physical life until the last trump sounds. IOW living spirits, like the angels in heaven, and the second man (Adam), the Lord from heaven. When man is born again, we HAVE eternal life that shall NEVER die. Our bodies are ordained to die, but the spirit of man that has been made alive through Christ's Spirit in them cannot die! Only our eternal spirit is raised to heaven after our body dies because neither flesh & blood, nor corruption can inherit the Kingdom of God. Because our natural spirit through the Spirit in us cannot die, in death our spirit ascends to heaven a "spiritual body."
The spirit in man doesn't need an incorruptible and immortal physical body, because when we are born again our spirit possessed with ETERNAL LIFE NEVER dies. Our eternal spirit in heaven waits for our physical body to be resurrected and changed. Then our bodies will once again have immortal & incorruptible life through the eternal spirit that returns with Christ. Paul says our body shall be raised IN power, not raised to be powerful, and what was sown in dishonor is raised IN glory, not WITH glory in itself. We will still be physical, but then immortal and incorruptible through our eternal spirit. As in the beginning so shall mankind be again!
When God created mankind from the dust of the earth and breathed into them the breath of life (spirit) was not man created physical? Yes, our bodies shall be changed, they shall be as in the beginning, physical bodies that shall never again die, never be sick, never grow old, cannot be enticed to sin. Why are you trying to make that which is physical, of the earth, earthy into that which is of heaven, heavenly/celestial?
Exactly! How can you read the words of Paul and lack understanding between that which is physical, of the earth, natural man, and that which is spiritual, of heaven/celestial, like the angels of God in heaven, without a body? To be a spiritual body in heaven simply means that death of the body for those who have died in Christ is NOT the end of life for us. We leave the physical body behind in death, and as spiritual body (spiritually alive) we ascend to heaven where we wait for the last trump to sound.
Throughout this chapter the basic argument from Paul is that in Christ our natural body will die, but after our body dies we will still be a spiritual body alive in heaven. This is much like the words of John from Rev 20 where Paul writes that he saw souls (spiritual life) in heaven even though the natural bodies of these living souls had been martyred for their faith. In Christ death has been defeated! Death of our body cannot prevent faithful saints from ascending to heaven a spiritual body after our bodies have breathed their last.
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
Are you asking did He come again bodily yet? Absolutely not. You are sadly mistaken.
The first time He came He certainly did what He came to do, but He has not yet come again. When He comes again He will destroy all of His enemies (Matthew 24:35-39, 2 Thess 1:7-9, 2 Peter 3:10-12, etc.). That has not yet occurred. And He will raise the dead in Christ and they will be gathered to Him "in the air" when He comes (1 Thess 4:14-17). That has not yet occurred.
I haven't heard of that. Anyway, one thing that full preterists believe is that Jesus already came long ago and they don't believe in His future bodily coming (still future from now). That seems to fit your view. But, full preterism is very much frowned upon here. We should all be looking forward to "that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ" (Titus 2:13) when we will see Him as He is and will become like Him (1 John 3:2) in terms of having immortal bodies like He has at that point. That is when all of the dead will be resurrected. The dead have not yet been resurrected. You are in serious error with your doctrine.
I dont know how messages for them then; you expect a return now @Spiritual Israelite
Its doesnt make a difference to me what you believe; your choice and its subjective between you and God.
Also there is catagories of
Exteremely liberal or extermely conservitive.
Like a Muslim extermeist for example.
Surely you know that exteremes exists.
I just share what is learned from the bible Jesus did come bodily to those christians who were suffering; but i have no proof. Except for the promised destruction of Isreal; happened in 70Ad.
Its all in faith; and therefore cant be argued against really. (Its subjective).
Sorry for that.
No hatred or angst against you as my fellow neighbor.
Its doesnt make a difference to me what you believe; your choice and its subjective between you and God.
Also there is catagories of
Exteremely liberal or extermely conservitive.
Like a Muslim extermeist for example.
Surely you know that exteremes exists.
I just share what is learned from the bible Jesus did come bodily to those christians who were suffering; but i have no proof. Except for the promised destruction of Isreal; happened in 70Ad.
Its all in faith; and therefore cant be argued against really. (Its subjective).
Sorry for that.
No hatred or angst against you as my fellow neighbor.
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
You say "Exactly!" and then proceed to disagree with what I said? I'm completely baffled. Paul said that the natural body is raised a spiritual body. You, on the other hand, said the spirit is raised a spiritual body. How are you not seeing that you said something different than what Paul said?
We're going to have to just agree to disagree on this. We're nowhere near on the same page on this. Oh well. It happens. Not reasonable to think we will agree on everything. But, we're just spinning our wheels at this point when it comes to this topic and I don't have the desire to continue doing that.
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
You have no proof, yet you somehow learned it from the Bible? The Bible never teaches that Jesus came bodily already in the past.
Jesus did not return bodily at that time.
I make no apologies for calling out your doctrine for what it is (notice I'm talking about your doctrine here, not you personally). It's a false doctrine that is far from the truth. You should ask God for wisdom on this (James 1:5-7).
Just share ; it is obvious a time was coming and it was near then. But some say nope. Subjective between you and God @Spiritual Israelite im not gonna argue symanticswith you. No desire.
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