Gotta start from Revelation 1 - to the end. Can't just go off one chapter or the other without the start and the end. And okay thank you for explaining that to me, sir or ma'am.
When did Jesus receive the Revelation scroll/book?
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Eternally Grateful
Well-Known Member
Yes I know
Chapter 4 and 5 is Jesus recieving the scrolls.
Chapter 6 is the opening of each scroll and what happens.
Soon is translated "shortly" in the KJV. Comparing Revelation 1:1 with Romans 16:20 "And the God of peace shall bruise Satan under your feet shortly. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you. Amen."
It seems that shortly can be a long time as I don't believe the bruising of Satan occurred in the 1st century.
I hope you have more reasons for believing Revelation was written before 70AD.
I think John was taken back in time to see the moment of Jesus ascension into heaven.
@6 Stories, you can take a look at what was just posted here, Who is the AntiChrist? (Identifying Him)
It's impossible for shortly to mean a long time.
tachu: quickly
Original Word: ταχύ
Part of Speech: Adverb
Transliteration: tachu
Phonetic Spelling: (takh-oo')
Definition: quickly
Usage: quickly, speedily.
HELPS Word-studies
5035 taxý (an adjective, used adverbially, and derived from 5036 /taxýs, "promptly") – properly, swift (quick), without unnecessary delay; used of God's promptness characterizing how He has ordered all physical scenes of life to happen on His perfect timetable without unnecessary "delay" (Rev 1:1, 22:6).
[5035 (taxý) does not mean "immediately" or necessarily "in a very short time" but rather "without any delay."]
It's impossible for shortly to mean a long time.
tachu: quickly
Original Word: ταχύ
Part of Speech: Adverb
Transliteration: tachu
Phonetic Spelling: (takh-oo')
Definition: quickly
Usage: quickly, speedily.
HELPS Word-studies
5035 taxý (an adjective, used adverbially, and derived from 5036 /taxýs, "promptly") – properly, swift (quick), without unnecessary delay; used of God's promptness characterizing how He has ordered all physical scenes of life to happen on His perfect timetable without unnecessary "delay" (Rev 1:1, 22:6).
[5035 (taxý) does not mean "immediately" or necessarily "in a very short time" but rather "without any delay."]
How is it that an all-knowing, all-powerful Jesus Christ, son of God would not have something that the Father has.
The only time I can think of when this would be possible is when Jesus became a man. The picture in Revelation 5 must therefore be just before Jesus receives back the glory he had with the Father that he had temporarily given up.
I don't find any believers in heaven in Revelation 4 or 5, except for John, who saw a vision of this time. I do find believers in heaven after this time in the Revelation.
You can always use biblehub, I also look in vines complete expo.
Anything to help. Here are some photos of shortly and quickly. Always good to grow in ones knowledge of these words, any word in my opinion.
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Eternally Grateful
Well-Known Member
So you did not read about those that praised the one who took the scroll for redeeming them from their sin, who laid their crowns at his feet?
Who are these people?
Timtofly
Well-Known Member
In chapter 4 John saw the 24 elders. They are believers. John saw 4 beasts, the 4 witnesses, also believers. They seemed to have always been there. I doubt you can claim when they were there or not there.
If you think John can be taken back in time, then any one seen in heaven can be there at any time. It should not matter when they arrived as time does not affect God nor His plan like humans on earth are affected.
When John saw 24 thrones, he then stated he saw people sitting on them. When John saw the sea of glass, he mentioned no one. Does that mean the sea of glass was empty? It is more likely than claiming the 24 thrones were empty, because John clearly stated the thrones were not empty. Unless those elders were 24 sons of God physically created on the 6th day, then they were humans who at some point lived on the earth as descendants of Adam. The answer is in the next chapter.
"And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;"
The 24 elders declared they were redeemed from among Adam's descendants.
They are not people. They were original to heaven. The tabernacle was the pattern on earth to show what existed in heaven.
Hebrews 8:5 "Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, saith he, that thou make all things according to the pattern shewed to thee in the mount."
There were 24 men on earth to duplicate heaven as shown in 1 Chronicles 24:
24 Now these are the divisions of the sons of Aaron. The sons of Aaron; Nadab, and Abihu, Eleazar, and Ithamar.
2 But Nadab and Abihu died before their father, and had no children: therefore Eleazar and Ithamar executed the priest's office.
3 And David distributed them, both Zadok of the sons of Eleazar, and Ahimelech of the sons of Ithamar, according to their offices in their service.
4 And there were more chief men found of the sons of Eleazar than of the sons of Ithamar, and thus were they divided. Among the sons of Eleazar there were sixteen chief men of the house of their fathers, and eight among the sons of Ithamar according to the house of their fathers.
Rev 4:
10 The four and twenty elders fall down before him that sat on the throne, and worship him that liveth for ever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying,
11 Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.
In Rev 4, people knew God because of creation. Verse 11 is the original song in heaven.
In Rev 5, people knew God because of Jesus.
8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.
9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.
The new song in verse 9 is sung in heaven from the moment Jesus arrived in heaven as the sacrifice for sin, the slain lamb. This had to be done in heaven to prepare heaven for mankind. Man could not enter heaven until this time.
John 14:
2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.
Hebrews 10:12 "12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God"
Jesus just entered heaven in Rev 5. He had not yet sat down on the right hand of God. Until Jesus went to heaven as the slain lamb, heaven was not prepared for mankind. Mankind was still at this point separated from God because of sin.
See post 72.
They are not redeemed. They sing the song of the redeemed because the spirits of the redeemed will be arriving in heaven shortly. The redeemed are found in heaven after this time throughout the Revelation. They also sang the song of creation for the spirits of those who knew God through creation, but who could not enter heaven until it was prepared for mankind by Jesus' blood.
In Revelation 14, there is another new song because the first of the dead who were resurrected ascended into heaven. They sing their own song in heaven because heaven had been prepared in Revelation 5.
Rev 14:2-3
2 And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:
3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.
The beasts and the elders don't have to sing this song for the 144,000 because the 144,000 are in heaven.
ewq1938
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The 144k are on Earth, Mt Zion which is next to Jerusalem. The harpers are the ones singing and the 144k are learning the song according to the text.
Eternally Grateful
Well-Known Member
So who in heaven needed Jesus to shed his blood for their sins so they could be saved and recieve crowns?
rebuilder 454
Well-Known Member
the patriarchs were in paradise below the earth and adjacent to hell as you laid out earlier.
Jesus preached the gospel to them, and raised them from the dead.
They are all in heaven now.
Paradise was emptied.
They were forgiven and justified by faith.
They needed the blood of Jesus to enter heaven.
Animal blood only covered their sin.
After Jesus became the kinsman redeemer, they had a basis to enter heaven.
They resurrected , and they , along with Jesus are the firstfruits unto heaven.
Next is main harvest...the church.
rebuilder 454
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rebuilder 454
Well-Known Member
All believers left behind at the pretrib rapture are beheaded that refuse the mark.
The only believers left are messianic Jews.(144k and others)
Timtofly
Well-Known Member
The Lamb was always there since before creation.
"And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth."
This verse does not say the Lamb just arrived in heaven. John had just arrived in heaven. John was being introduced to heaven bit by bit. Seems you are trying to adjust your chronological view to fit the narrative?
John later states:
"of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world."
So the Lamb was there prior to there even being a creation. In fact Genesis 1 is the fulfillment of this:
"I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also. And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know."
They knew about it from Genesis 1.
The 24 elders were allowed to enter when Jesus ascended Sunday morning after talking to Mary. Whoever they were if physically dead, were waiting in Abraham's bosom and could not physically enter heaven until the death, burial, and resurrection had occurred.
Personally, I think 12 represented the OT and 12 represented the NT. So those representing the NT arrived later. John was present in heaven for this end time event that would include the opening of the Seals, the Trumpets, the Thunders, and Satan's 42 months. He watched it unfold. He wrote about what happened when the events happened.
So the Lamb was the only one who could open the seals. But not finding any one included beings alive today. Not just up until the first century. The scenario in chapters 4 and 5 included all those alive on earth today. The entire creation from the beginning until the point of the Second Coming.
Timtofly
Well-Known Member
The 144k were not resurrected. They were with Jesus during the first 6 Trumpets and the 7 Thunders on the earth.
The only reason why they are not on earth at that point is that Satan was given 42 months as the 8th king and the 8th kingdom.
Jesus was declared the 7th King and the 7th Kingdom at the 7th Trumpet. But after 3.5 days, Satan may be allowed an additional 42 months of time. That 42 months is the only reason there is an 8th kingdom and the 144k are waiting on heavenly mount Zion. Otherwise the 144k would never leave the earth, but the Millennium would start and after 3.5 days Satan would be bound in the pit. The 144k sing that song regardless if there is an additional 42 months or if Satan is bound in the pit without any 42 months.
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