WWJD with LGBTQ?

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St. SteVen

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Christianity isn't tolerant of sin.
Why do we single out one sin to make that claim?

--- Parody ---

Conversation between Christian protester and doughnut shop patron. (customer)

Patron: What are doing picketing a donut shop?
Protester: I'm protesting the sin of gluttony.
Patron: Why on earth would you do that?
Protester: Gluttony is a sin, this has to stop.
Patron: Not everyone who buys a donut is a glutton.
Protester: We can't say that for sure.
Patron: Don't you have gluttony at your church?
Protester: No, we kicked them all out, unless they would repent.
Patron: Wow, for eating donuts?
Protester: No, gluttony takes many forms.
Patron: Right, like a church pot-luck dinner?
Protester: Exactly, they are banned at our church.
Patron: Did you know that some people are born with
weight-gain issues they will never get ahead of?
Protester: That's no excuse. Sin is sin.
Patron: You look exhausted, can I buy you a donut?
Protester: Sure, just don't tell the church.
Patron: Your secret's safe with me.

/
 
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BlessedPeace

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Why do we single out one sin to make that claim?

--- Parody ---

Conversation between Christian protester and doughnut shop patron. (customer)

Patron: What are doing picketing a donut shop?
Protester: I'm protesting the sin of gluttony.
Patron: Why on earth would you do that?
Protester: Gluttony is a sin, this has to stop.
Patron: Not everyone who buys a donut is a glutton.
Protester: We can't say that for sure.
Patron: Don't you have gluttony at your church?
Protester: No, we kicked them all out, unless they would repent.
Patron: Wow, for eating donuts?
Protester: No, gluttony takes many forms.
Patron: Right, like a church pot-luck dinner?
Protester: Exactly, they are banned at our church.
Patron: Did you know that some people are born with
weight-gain issues they will never get ahead of?
Protester: That's no excuse. Sin is sin.
Patron: You look exhausted, can I buy you a donut.
Protester: Sure, just don't tell the church.
Patron: Your secret's safe with me.

/
This is why you don't seem to remember your own thread.


YOU singled out the one sin. OK,to be fair,two would actually apply if we include Transsexualism.
 

St. SteVen

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two would actually apply if we include Transsexualism.
More claims you can't justify.
There isn't even a solid biblical case against lesbianism.
The biblical "proof-text" is for men with men.
Specifically Israelite men with men.

The church is wrong about divorce too.
Jesus literally said, "except for fornication..." (not adultery)

/
 

BlessedPeace

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More claims you can't justify.
There isn't even a solid biblical case against lesbianism.
Ohhh, OK. So, God said gay male sex was condemned,an abomination,abominations tallying as quite a few in the OT regarding different sins, and that offense worthy of death.

But because God didn't condemn Lesbianism,that's perfectly OK behavior.
The biblical "proof-text" is for men with men.
Specifically Israelite men with men.
Maybe,because men were head of household. And women were to be submissive to the rule of their husband.
You would have to reason why in a Patriarchal system God would condemn male homosexuality,yet not be specific regarding women.

Or maybe, when the text states you shall not lie with a man as with a woman naturally includes the implication,women shall not lay with womankind as they do with man.
The church is wrong about divorce too.
Jesus literally said, "except for fornication..." (not adultery)
Adultery has no relation to Fornication?
 

St. SteVen

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Ohhh, OK. So, God said gay male sex was condemned,an abomination,abominations tallying as quite a few in the OT regarding different sins, and that offense worthy of death.

But because God didn't condemn Lesbianism,that's perfectly OK behavior.
I'm saying that Christians make many wrong assumptions about what the Bible ACTUALLY says about this subject.
There is no allowance for women to divorce their husbands, either.
And for men, the only grounds is fornication by their new bride. (before she was wed to him)


/
 

St. SteVen

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St. SteVen said:
The church is wrong about divorce too.
Jesus literally said, "except for fornication..." (not adultery)
Adultery has no relation to Fornication?
There is a cultural/legal implication in what Jesus said.
Fornication is sex BEFORE marriage.

Women were considered property.
Fornication before marriage meant the product was defective. (not the promised virgin)
An illegal business transaction basically. Sorry, I know that's hard to hear.

/
 

Aunty Jane

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There isn't even a solid biblical case against lesbianism.
The biblical "proof-text" is for men with men.
Specifically Israelite men with men.
Romans 1:24-27…
”Therefore, God, in keeping with the desires of their hearts, gave them up to uncleanness, so that their bodies might be dishonored among them. 25 They exchanged the truth of God for the lie and venerated and rendered sacred service to the creation rather than the Creator, who is praised forever. Amen. 26 That is why God gave them over to disgraceful sexual passion, for their females changed the natural use of themselves into one contrary to nature; 27 likewise also the males left the natural use of the female and became violently inflamed in their lust toward one another, males with males, working what is obscene and receiving in themselves the full penalty, which was due for their error.”

Gal 5:19-21……
“Now the works of the flesh are plainly seen, and they are sexual immorality, uncleanness, brazen conduct, 20 idolatry, spiritism, hostility, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, dissensions, divisions, sects, 21 envy, drunkenness, wild parties, and things like these. I am forewarning you about these things, the same way I already warned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit God’s Kingdom.”

So there is a list of things that humans practice, that will preclude them from God’s Kingdom.
First on the list is “sexual immorality“ which is translated from the Greek “porneia”, meaning….

“illicit sexual intercourse…

  1. adultery, fornication, homosexuality, lesbianism, intercourse with animals etc.

So ANY form of sexual intercourse that is outside of God’s arrangement for scriptural “marriage” will prevent a person from inheriting the kingdom.
The sole purpose of sexual intercourse is ultimately to produce children in a committed family arrangement. The fact that it is pleasurable is a bonus, but not the reason why it was given. So let’s not lose sight of that.
No one ever died from not having sex.

There is no proviso for the imperfections that afflict the sinful human race to override God’s laws on sexual conduct. In Paul’s list of practices that prevent entry into God’s kingdom arrangement, “sexual, immorality“ is first on that list for a reason….it is the most commonly broken law of God even among heterosexuals.

So where does that leave those who have the wrong ‘leaning’, sexually speaking? What about those who are afflicted with confused sexual orientation, flaws in their DNA and in their chromosomes…at the very heart of their “nature”?
Sexual depravity is nothing new and it’s something that has afflicted humanity since Adam’s sin caused them to deviate from what is “natural”? Sexual sin was fallen man’s first response to the introduction of evil.…it caused Adam and his wife to cover their reproductive parts…..because they felt shame on account of their nakedness.

According to Jesus, “God made them male and female”, so in the beginning, there were no ‘alphabet’ people.

@Lambano made reference to those who had “made themselves eunuchs on account of the kingdom”.

Matt 19:12 says…Jesus said….
“For there are eunuchs who were born that way, and there are eunuchs who were made eunuchs by men, and there are eunuchs who have made themselves eunuchs on account of the Kingdom of the heavens. Let the one who can make room for it make room for it.”

Sex is a drive in all living things, which was instilled by the Creator so that procreation would perpetuate life on this planet. Human beings are the only ones endowed with moral qualities, because we are made “in God’s image”, reflecting his view of morality.
There are ways to make oneself a “eunuch” “on account of the kingdom”…that is giving up being married, (having sex) in order “to serve the Lord without distraction”. (1 Cor 7:32-35) It is a sacrifice on the part of the one making that decision, but you can’t have your cake and eat it too. You have to choose one or the other.

Since scriptural marriage is the only way to practice sexual morality, everything outside of that arrangement is “immoral” from God’s standpoint….He makes no provision in his laws for deviation in this regard.
So what is one to do if they are the victims of fleshly imperfection and a strong attraction to the same sex?
For Christians, being homosexual is not a crime…it is a fact of life for many, especially in these last days.
What God condemns, is homosexual practice. So if the person with those leanings truly loves God more than their own flesh, they will comply with his laws, in exactly the same way as someone who is attracted to another man’s wife or husband …..they have no right to pursue that relationship.

Self-control is a fruit of God’s spirit, and all efforts to make sacrifices for God will be aided and rewarded.
He does not leave us alone to fight our fallen flesh on our own.
The church is wrong about divorce too.
Jesus literally said, "except for fornication..." (not adultery)
The Greek word (“porneia”) encompasses all sexual misconduct, which would include an addiction to pornography. (Matt 5:27-29) We must be clean in mind as well as in our flesh. All sin begins in the mind.

God’s law is never wrong, just because it is an inconvenience…..Jesus taught that marriage is a permanent arrangement, with no divorce except on the grounds of “porneia”….(any form of sexual misconduct) no excuses.…his advice is to choose well from among those who unselfishly serve their Lord, and to include God in our marriage so that there is no reason for divorce….those reasons come from outside of God’s arrangement.….because someone is not practicing their Christian faith.
 

St. SteVen

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St. SteVen said:
The church is wrong about divorce too.
Jesus literally said, "except for fornication..." (not adultery)
The Greek word (“porneia”) encompasses all sexual misconduct, which would include an addiction to pornography. (Matt 5:27-29) We must be clean in mind as well as in our flesh. All sin begins in the mind.

God’s law is never wrong, just because it is an inconvenience…..Jesus taught that marriage is a permanent arrangement, with no divorce except on the grounds of “porneia”….(any form of sexual misconduct) no excuses.…his advice is to choose well from among those who unselfishly serve their Lord, and to include God in our marriage so that there is no reason for divorce….those reasons come from outside of God’s arrangement.….because someone is not practicing their Christian faith.
In the scripture in question (Matthew 5:32) Jesus was specifically speaking of fornication. (sex before marriage for the bride)
Which meant that the bride was not a virgin as promised by her parents. (owners) Therefore bad merchandise.

But my point was that the church has taken the position that adultery is grounds for divorce. Not what Jesus said.

/
 

BlessedPeace

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St. SteVen said:
The church is wrong about divorce too.
Jesus literally said, "except for fornication..." (not adultery)

There is a cultural/legal implication in what Jesus said.
Fornication is sex BEFORE marriage.

Women were considered property.
Fornication before marriage meant the product was defective. (not the promised virgin)
An illegal business transaction basically. Sorry, I know that's hard to hear.
Errant doctrine and an agenda to invalidate the Bible is always hard to hear. And yet,you persist despite efforts to educate you.

There was a similar attitude to yours on a Christian Q&A page.
Give this a read.

You're deviating from your OP repeatedly in the age old tactic of comparing apples to oranges.

Scripture says what it says. You don't agree sin is what God identified as sin. Too bad. Debating it from your perspective that holds no respect for God's rules of righteous behavior doesn't change scripture.

Live your life by your rules. And see how that turns out at the end of it.
Romans 1:18
 
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St. SteVen

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There was a similar attitude to yours on a Christian Q&A page.
Give this a read.
"Does fornication not include sex before marriage?" - LOL
Wow.
Last time I checked, fornication IS sex before marriage.

/
 

St. SteVen

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Scripture says what it says. You don't agree sin is what God identified as sin. Too bad. Debating it from your perspective that holds no respect for God's rules of righteous behavior doesn't change scripture.

Live your life by your rules. And see how that turns out at the end of it.
Not sure what your problem is, but you are completely misunderstanding me.
But... par for this course, I guess.

/
 

St. SteVen

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There was a similar attitude to yours on a Christian Q&A page.
Give this a read.
Here's a quote from the article. How do you respond?

"Now, if sex before marriage is such a sin that you can condemn this girl with Bible quotes, how do you justify these verses that clearly show the Bible heroes having "concubines," known today as girlfriends, or mistresses, outside their marriages? From Abraham to David there are countless accounts of the Bible heroes who were having sex with other single women who were their concubines."

/
 

Aunty Jane

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St. SteVen said:
The church is wrong about divorce too.
Jesus literally said, "except for fornication..." (not adultery)

In the scripture in question (Matthew 5:32) Jesus was specifically speaking of fornication. (sex before marriage for the bride)
Which meant that the bride was not a virgin as promised by her parents. (owners) Therefore bad merchandise.

But my point was that the church has taken the position that adultery is grounds for divorce. Not what Jesus said.
In Matt ch 5, there is a wealth of instruction for Christ’s disciples who were all Jewish, but taught by the Pharisees a twisted interpretation of God’s law.

In the phrase “it was said” or “you heard it was said”, Jesus was ‘untwisting’ that false interpretation to give God’s law the correct meaning…..which is why he says…”but I say to you….”

Matt 5:31-32…quoting from Strongs…..
It was said, ‘WHOEVER SENDS HIS WIFE AWAY, LET HIM GIVEHER A CERTIFICATE OF DIVORCE’; but I say to you that everyone who divorces his wife,except for the reason of unchastity, makes her commitadultery; and whoever marries a divorced woman commits adultery.
As he does in all these statements, here Jesus first quotes the OT and then corrects the grounds upon which a man may divorce his wife….that word is again “porneia” so it means any kind of “unchastity”.
Here's a quote from the article. How do you respond?

"Now, if sex before marriage is such a sin that you can condemn this girl with Bible quotes, how do you justify these verses that clearly show the Bible heroes having "concubines," known today as girlfriends, or mistresses, outside their marriages? From Abraham to David there are countless accounts of the Bible heroes who were having sex with other single women who were their concubines."
Just to be clear on this point.....
Among the Hebrews, a concubine occupied a position in the nature of a secondary wife and was sometimes spoken of as a wife. It appears that concubines were slave girls, one of three kinds:
(1) a Hebrew girl sold by her father, (Exodus 21:7-9)
(2) a foreign slave girl purchased, or
(3) a foreign girl captured in warfare. (Deut 21:10-14)
Some were the slave girls or handmaids of the free wife, as in the cases of Sarah, Leah, and Rachel. (Gen 16:3-4; 30:3-13; Judg 8:31; 9:18)

The practice of concubinage was in existence before the Law covenant and was recognized and regulated by the Law, which protected the rights of both wives and concubines. (Ex21:7-11; Deut 21:14-17) Women in those male dominated times did not have a lot of say over where they ended up, and were to be content with their lot, even if it was less than ideal. Abigail for example was married to a horrible man but God freed her from that loveless marriage.....to marry the King, who treated her well.

Concubines did not have all the rights in the household that the regular wife had, and a man might have a plurality of wives along with concubines. In cases where the wife was barren, she sometimes gave her handmaid to the husband as a concubine, and the child born of the concubine would then be considered as the child of the free wife, her mistress. (Gen 16:2; 30:3) It was viewed much as we would viewed surrogacy.

Sons of concubines were legitimate and could inherit. (Gen 49:16-21)

Take into consideration too, that women did not work outside of the home and were provided for by their husbands. As war often took the lives of many men, women were left with no men to marry and to take care of them...by allowing concubinage for a time, these women were given the protection of a home and family as well as children, which was very important in Jewish society.

It was during Jesus’ ministry that he also reinstated the original standard for marriage....one man, one wife.
 
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L.A.M.B.

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Romans 1:24-27…
”Therefore, God, in keeping with the desires of their hearts, gave them up to uncleanness, so that their bodies might be dishonored among them. 25 They exchanged the truth of God for the lie and venerated and rendered sacred service to the creation rather than the Creator, who is praised forever. Amen. 26 That is why God gave them over to disgraceful sexual passion, for their females changed the natural use of themselves into one contrary to nature; 27 likewise also the males left the natural use of the female and became violently inflamed in their lust toward one another, males with males, working what is obscene and receiving in themselves the full penalty, which was due for their error.”

Gal 5:19-21……
“Now the works of the flesh are plainly seen, and they are sexual immorality, uncleanness, brazen conduct, 20 idolatry, spiritism, hostility, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, dissensions, divisions, sects, 21 envy, drunkenness, wild parties, and things like these. I am forewarning you about these things, the same way I already warned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit God’s Kingdom.”

So there is a list of things that humans practice, that will preclude them from God’s Kingdom.
First on the list is “sexual immorality“ which is translated from the Greek “porneia”, meaning….

“illicit sexual intercourse…

  1. adultery, fornication, homosexuality, lesbianism, intercourse with animals etc.

So ANY form of sexual intercourse that is outside of God’s arrangement for scriptural “marriage” will prevent a person from inheriting the kingdom.
The sole purpose of sexual intercourse is ultimately to produce children in a committed family arrangement. The fact that it is pleasurable is a bonus, but not the reason why it was given. So let’s not lose sight of that.
No one ever died from not having sex.

There is no proviso for the imperfections that afflict the sinful human race to override God’s laws on sexual conduct. In Paul’s list of practices that prevent entry into God’s kingdom arrangement, “sexual, immorality“ is first on that list for a reason….it is the most commonly broken law of God even among heterosexuals.

So where does that leave those who have the wrong ‘leaning’, sexually speaking? What about those who are afflicted with confused sexual orientation, flaws in their DNA and in their chromosomes…at the very heart of their “nature”?
Sexual depravity is nothing new and it’s something that has afflicted humanity since Adam’s sin caused them to deviate from what is “natural”? Sexual sin was fallen man’s first response to the introduction of evil.…it caused Adam and his wife to cover their reproductive parts…..because they felt shame on account of their nakedness.

According to Jesus, “God made them male and female”, so in the beginning, there were no ‘alphabet’ people.

@Lambano made reference to those who had “made themselves eunuchs on account of the kingdom”.

Matt 19:12 says…Jesus said….
“For there are eunuchs who were born that way, and there are eunuchs who were made eunuchs by men, and there are eunuchs who have made themselves eunuchs on account of the Kingdom of the heavens. Let the one who can make room for it make room for it.”

Sex is a drive in all living things, which was instilled by the Creator so that procreation would perpetuate life on this planet. Human beings are the only ones endowed with moral qualities, because we are made “in God’s image”, reflecting his view of morality.
There are ways to make oneself a “eunuch” “on account of the kingdom”…that is giving up being married, (having sex) in order “to serve the Lord without distraction”. (1 Cor 7:32-35) It is a sacrifice on the part of the one making that decision, but you can’t have your cake and eat it too. You have to choose one or the other.

Since scriptural marriage is the only way to practice sexual morality, everything outside of that arrangement is “immoral” from God’s standpoint….He makes no provision in his laws for deviation in this regard.
So what is one to do if they are the victims of fleshly imperfection and a strong attraction to the same sex?
For Christians, being homosexual is not a crime…it is a fact of life for many, especially in these last days.
What God condemns, is homosexual practice. So if the person with those leanings truly loves God more than their own flesh, they will comply with his laws, in exactly the same way as someone who is attracted to another man’s wife or husband …..they have no right to pursue that relationship.

Self-control is a fruit of God’s spirit, and all efforts to make sacrifices for God will be aided and rewarded.
He does not leave us alone to fight our fallen flesh on our own.

The Greek word (“porneia”) encompasses all sexual misconduct, which would include an addiction to pornography. (Matt 5:27-29) We must be clean in mind as well as in our flesh. All sin begins in the mind.

God’s law is never wrong, just because it is an inconvenience…..Jesus taught that marriage is a permanent arrangement, with no divorce except on the grounds of “porneia”….(any form of sexual misconduct) no excuses.…his advice is to choose well from among those who unselfishly serve their Lord, and to include God in our marriage so that there is no reason for divorce….those reasons come from outside of God’s arrangement.….because someone is not practicing their Christian faith.
Soooooo very well written.
Thank you.

If man lives by, of, and in the words of God, they will NOT seek an excuse to sin in overtness, (not hidden), nor sin " in the closet" neither will they have the desire to be disobedient to God.
 

L.A.M.B.

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In Matt ch 5, there is a wealth of instruction for Christ’s disciples who were all Jewish, but taught by the Pharisees a twist interpretation of God’s law.

In the phrase “it was said” or “you heard it was said”, Jesus was ‘untwisting’ that false interpretation to give God’s law the correct meaning…..which is why he says…”but I say to you….”

Matt 5:31-32…quoting from Strongs…..
It was said, ‘WHOEVER SENDS HIS WIFE AWAY, LET HIM GIVEHER A CERTIFICATE OF DIVORCE’; but I say to you that everyone who divorces his wife,except for the reason of unchastity, makes her commitadultery; and whoever marries a divorced woman commits adultery.
As he does in all these statements, here Jesus first quotes the OT and then corrects the grounds upon which a man may divorce his wife….that word is again “pornea” so it means any kind of “unchastity”.

Just to be clear on this point.....
Among the Hebrews, a concubine occupied a position in the nature of a secondary wife and was sometimes spoken of as a wife. It appears that concubines were slave girls, one of three kinds:
(1) a Hebrew girl sold by her father, (Exodus 21:7-9)
(2) a foreign slave girl purchased, or
(3) a foreign girl captured in warfare. (Deut 21:10-14)
Some were the slave girls or handmaids of the free wife, as in the cases of Sarah, Leah, and Rachel. (Gen 16:3-4; 30:3-13; Judg 8:31; 9:18)

The practice of concubinage was in existence before the Law covenant and was recognized and regulated by the Law, which protected the rights of both wives and concubines. (Ex21:7-11; Deut 21:14-17) Women in those male dominated times did not have a lot of say over where they ended up, and were to be content with their lot, even if it was less than ideal. Abigail for example was married to a horrible man but God freed her from that loveless marriage.....to marry the King, who treated her well.

Concubines did not have all the rights in the household that the regular wife had, and a man might have a plurality of wives along with concubines. In cases where the wife was barren, she sometimes gave her handmaid to the husband as a concubine, and the child born of the concubine would then be considered as the child of the free wife, her mistress. (Gen 16:2; 30:3) It was viewed much as we would viewed surrogacy.

Sons of concubines were legitimate and could inherit. (Gen 49:16-21)

Take into consideration too, that women did not work outside of the home and were provided for by their husbands. As war often took the lives of many men, women were left with no men to marry and to take care of them...by allowing concubinage for a time, these women were given the protection of a home and family as well as children, which was very important in Jewish society.

It was during Jesus’ ministry that he also reinstated the original standard for marriage....one man, one wife.
Again well written.

The antagonistic twister of the scripts desires only to mock others and is not worthy of even rebuke, nor will heed such.

I'm wondering what actually makes such tick.........
 
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Aunty Jane

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Good post, thanks.
How did you arrive at this conclusion?
Matthew 19:3-9...

“And Pharisees came to him intent on testing him, and they asked: “Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife on every sort of grounds?” 4 In reply he said: “Have you not read that the one who created them from the beginning made them male and female 5 and said: ‘For this reason a man will leave his father and his mother and will stick to his wife, and the two will be one flesh’? 6 So that they are no longer two, but one flesh. Therefore, what God has yoked together, let no man put apart.” 7 They said to him: “Why, then, did Moses direct giving a certificate of dismissal and divorcing her?” 8 He said to them: “Out of regard for your hard-heartedness, Moses made the concession to you of divorcing your wives, but that has not been the case from the beginning. 9 I say to you that whoever divorces his wife, except on the grounds of sexual immorality, and marries another commits adultery.”

So here you have Jesus reinstating the original standard for marriage....one man, one wife, made “one flesh”.
God had made concession to Israel because of their “hard-heartedness”, by being able to divorce their wives with “a certificate of dismissal”. On reflection though, by requiring a man who was considering divorce to prepare a legal document and likely to consult the elders, the Law gave him time to reconsider such a serious decision. There had to be some “indecency” on the part of his wife.

The intent of the Law was evidently to prevent rash divorces and to provide vulnerable women with a measure of legal protection. (Deut 24:1) But in Jesus’ day, religious leaders had made divorce easy to obtain, just like it is now. This was not to continue, as marriage was God’s arrangement and divorce was not to be treated as something frivolous, made on the spur of the moment, or out of malice. And certainly not because the husband had found someone younger and perhaps more beautiful.
 

BlessedPeace

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Again well written.

The antagonistic twister of the scripts desires only to mock others and is not worthy of even rebuke, nor will heed such.

I'm wondering what actually makes such tick.........
Do you really need wonder ?
That what is adverse....
 
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L.A.M.B.

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Do you really need wonder ?
That what is adverse....
Not really but everyone is innocent until proven guilty.
The evidence is astronomical against so I'm just waiting on the gavel to bang.
Hoping for a change of heart !
 
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