Paul claimed 3 times that Rev 20:4 was a current reality.

[Zao is life]

That is a matter of interpretation of the word as definitive to your own liking, meaning you are simply claiming yours is a better interpretation.

Only if you interpret any of the verses using the word zao which are not referring to the living God, as referring to human spirits who are not living | alive in their human bodies - and anyone who reads each verse and is honest, will see it.

All those who are honest with the scriptures and do not try to make the scriptures mean what they want them to mean and say what they want them to say, see it for themselves when they read each verse containing the word, because there is no need for any doubt. You place yourself outside of this camp of the saints by refusing to hear and learn from the Word of God alone. Instead you take away from its meaning and add your own meaning.

Even so, even giving you the benefit of the doubt (which does surely exist with the original word)--your attempt is to take it literally, while the matter is spiritual. In other words, you are not even accounting for the fact that, that would be literal body or life...is not actually literal but a mere "created" "image." Meaning, you are calling evil good.

You are calling what is true a lie, and what is a lie, true by taking the meaning of the word zao (alive in the body) out of scripture for the sake of your made-up and unbiblical theology. Then you resort to false accusations against someone pointing out your error. Hence the one calling evil good, is you, and whatever you say is not worth reading if that's how you defend your defenseless expulsion of the meaning of what is written while you insert your own meaning produced by and in support of your own unbiblical theology.

 

[rwb]

It's because, FIRSTLY, immortality is in Christ alone:

-- "God has given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. He that has the Son has life; and he that has not the Son of God has not life." -- 1 John 5:11-12.

-- "The Word was in the beginning with God. In Him was life [zōḗ], and the life [zōḗ] was the light of men." -- John 1:2 & 4.

-- He (Christ) alone possesses immortality and lives in unapproachable light,

When did I ever say that when man is born again of the Spirit they have immortality? NEVER! Christ does not say whoever lives and believes in Me has IMMORTAL life. He says whoever lives and believes in Me has ETERNAL/EVERLASTING life through His Spirit. Christ doesn't say believers are immortal because we shall not be immortal & incorruptible until the last trumpet sounds and our PHYSICAL BODY is resurrected from mortal to immortal and corruptible to incorruptible.

What you seem not to understand is that when Christ promises whoever lives and believes in Him eternal/everlasting life He is not speaking of our physical body, but our spirit that shall NEVER die.

-- "Martha said to Him, I know that he shall [ἀνίστημι anístēmi] in the resurrection of the body [anástasis] at the last day.

Jesus said to her, I am the [ἀνάστασις anástasis] Resurrection of the body and the the Life in the body [zōḗ]!

He who believes in Me, though he die, yet he shall live in the body [zōḗ].”

NO, Jesus did NOT say I am the resurrection of the body, you're reading your doctrine into the verse. Christ tells us very clearly that He is the RESURRECTION and the life. This proves the first resurrection man MUST have part in before they die is the resurrection of Christ because it is through His resurrection, which is the first to never die again, that man must have part in to live forever. Which is why Christ tells Martha those who believe in Him, even though they die shall live. And lets not forget Christ's words to Martha, asking her, and you and all who profess to believe in Him; "Do you believe this?"

Christ says these things to Martha that she and all who read these words might know that physical death for those who have been born again is NOT death, only our flesh dies, and we as a spiritual body of believers depart from this earth, and return alive through Christ's Spirit in us to God who gave us the breath of life (spirit).

 

[rwb]

The Bible does not teach that we reign with Christ spiritually. My post #34 shows exactly where Jesus and the Bible explains it to you. You're misinterpreting the gospel, IMO.

Then how in this life do we worship God in spirit and in truth? When our spirit through Christ's Spirit seek that which comes from above, we are spiritually in Christ and while living through His Spirit we reign with Him.

John 4:23-24 (KJV) But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

Revelation 5:10 (KJV) And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

 

[grafted branch]

As I've already said some translations do make it appear these martyred saints come to life AGAIN, but that is not how the verse should be interpreted. See reply #2 for why I say this.

The issue isn’t with the martyred saints it’s with the rest of the dead. The rest of the dead live after the millennium, at the same time Satans little season happens.

I’m not sure how you view this event, maybe the spirits of the unbelievers come to life and roam the earth during Satans little season or something like that?

Marty has two millenniums, with the millennium of the unbelievers ending after Satans little season, which means the unbelievers only come to life after Satans little season. If there is only one millennium then the unbelievers come to life at the same time as Satans little season.

 

[rwb]

How I see it is that there are two sets of thousand years one the reigning and one the binding. Once again we don’t reign because satan is bound we reign because Jesus reigns thus there has to be two sets of binding they aren’t a coincidence.

The reigning and the binding happened at the cross and resurrection as shown in Revelation 20:2 & 4.

The binding ends when satan is released as shown in Revelation 20:7 before his final assault on the church, his defeat, the end of our world and him being cast into the lake of fire. After this is the great white throne judgement as shown in Revelation 20:11-15

The reigning ends at the end of our world after satans defeat when the rest of the dead are raised at the great white throne judgement revelation 20:5 confirms it as we see them in verse revelation 20:12-13

I really don't understand what you mean here Marty? If being spiritually alive in Christ after physical death, and the binding of Satan began at the cross, why do you say they are different thousand years of time?

I agree the binding of Satan ends when the thousand years expire. But that is because that marks the end of time given the Church for building the Kingdom of God through the Gospel proclaimed in the power of the Holy Spirit. That will be the end of time because the last Gentile to be saved has entered the Kingdom of God through Christ's Spirit in them. That means the mystery is fulfilled, the Kingdom of God is complete as the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. No more time for building is needed after the spiritual Kingdom of God in heaven is complete. The time has come when the last trumpet sounds time shall be no longer, and Satan is set free for his little season.

If you read 20:4 through the correct translation, you should understand that those martyred for their faith BEFORE THEY DIE, lived (past tense) and reigned (past tense) with Christ during this symbolic time a thousand years. IOW faithful saints live and reign with Christ after we are born again of His Spirit during our lives before we die. Once we die and our spirit returns to God who gave it, a spiritual body of believers in heaven, we are with the Lord because before we died, we lived and reigned with Him on earth.

After Satan has his little season for persecuting Christ and Christians still alive on the earth during this time, the faithful saints are caught up to meet the Lord in the air as the fire of God's wrath is poured out upon the earth. The saints caught up together are both those who have died and are resurrected from the graves and all who are still living caught up together to meet the Lord.

Those who died in unbelief are resurrected to damnation (GWTJ & LOF), while those alive with Satan on the earth, called Gog (antichrists) and Magog (antichristian party) are among the dead because they will be burned up with Satan by the fire that comes down from God.

This all happens during this time symbolized a thousand years that began with the first advent of Christ and shall end when this symbolic time shall be no longer (Rev 10:5-7). The thousand years, symbolizing time is the whole era for proclaiming the Gospel of the Kingdom of God.

 

[rwb]

I see nothing wrong with focusing on a "physical resurrection," as opposed to our being spiritually "raised up with Christ" in the spiritual, metaphorical sense. In fact, the primary importance of the resurrection is "physical."

IMO the reason for the confusion is that Premillennialism doesn't accept the "first resurrection" is the physical resurrection of Christ that man must, through His Spirit have part in before death to overcome the second death. Premillennialism want us to believe these who have physically died have been physically resurrected again to live and reign with Christ during a literal period of one thousand years. Then after the one thousand years of time, there will be another physical resurrection. I'm sure you can see the contradiction and inconsistencies this doctrine forces into the Word of God! Because Scripture tells us that none will be physically resurrected before an hour coming when the last trumpet sounds.

John 5:28-29 (KJV) Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

1 Corinthians 15:51-53 (KJV) Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

 

[rwb]

The issue isn’t with the martyred saints it’s with the rest of the dead. The rest of the dead live after the millennium, at the same time Satans little season happens.

I’m not sure how you view this event, maybe the spirits of the unbelievers come to life and roam the earth during Satans little season or something like that?

Marty has two millenniums, with the millennium of the unbelievers ending after Satans little season, which means the unbelievers only come to life after Satans little season. If there is only one millennium then the unbelievers come to life at the same time as Satans little season.

The text says only that the dead shall be judged after time (a thousand years) expires. I believe this is to show a contrast between those who have died in faith, and those who die in unbelief who live and die during this symbolic time. Those who died in faith are still alive in heaven after physical death. But of those who die in unbelief remain in bondage to death and the grave and shall not live again until after Satan's little season, they are "the dead" called to stand before the GWTJ to give account according to what is written in the books and the book of life.

Revelation 20:5 (KJV) But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

Revelation 20:7-15 (KJV) And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

The passage (Mt 27:52-53) gives us witnesses for what is written of graves being opened AFTER Christ's resurrection and the bodies of many who died as martyrs of the faith arose (a spiritual body of believers) and went into the holy city in heaven and were seen by the many hosts of heaven. The end of the thousand years and after Satan's little season is the time period John writes symbolically a thousand years that shall end when the seventh trumpet begins to sound (Rev 10:5-7) and the wrath and judgment day of God has come.

Hebrews 12:22-24 (KJV) But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

 

[grafted branch]

Revelation 20:5 (KJV) But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

Well unless you insert a gap, like the gap some people insert between the 69th and 70th weeks, then the the rest of the dead live after the thousand years are finished, they don’t remain dead until after Satans little season.

 

[Zao is life]

Jesus did NOT say I am the resurrection of the body

You are reading your own doctrine into the verse. The word anastasis only refers to the resurrection of the body. It's never talking about a 'spiritual' resurrection.

“Jesus said to her, Your brother shall [anístēmi] rise again.

Martha said to Him, I know that he shall [ἀνίστημι anístēmi] in the [ἀνάστασις anástasis] resurrection at the last day.

Jesus said to her, I am the [ἀνάστασις anástasis] Resurrection and the Life! He who believes in Me, though he die, yet he shall live in the body [záō].”

The Resurrection of the Body

M ankind was created to live on the created earth, in a created body. We were not created to "go to heaven when we die". That's not God'...

zaoislife.blogspot.com

 

[Davidpt]

How so?



There are two sets of thousand Years one the binding and one the reigning. The binding ends when satan is released and the reigning ends at the end of our world

Here we go with this nonsense again. It was nonsense when you used this argument on BF years ago, it's still equally nonsensical now.

Here's the reason why it's nonsense.

Revelation 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,


The text plainly, thus undeniably, says that the thousand years are expired at this point. That means what ever era of time the thousand years are involving, that era of time is now entirely in the past. What is that era of time involving? It's involving satan being in the pit and saints reigning with Christ while he is in the pit. Not one single thing from this point on is still involving the thousand years. Not to mention, in regards to the saints that come back to life, the text plainly indicates they lived again and reign with Christ a thousand years, not a thousand years and a little season instead.

If Amil is the correct position then prove it via what is written rather than adding things to the texts not found in the texts. Nowhere in the text does it say that the thousand years expired yet again, meaning after satan's little season.

 

[rwb]

Well unless you insert a gap, like the gap some people insert between the 69th and 70th weeks, then the the rest of the dead live after the thousand years are finished, they don’t remain dead until after Satans little season.

John makes no mention of what comes after the thousand years expire except for Satan's little season. The dead are not judged until after Satan has his little season so they cannot be resurrected to life again until after the thousand years and Satan's little season. They are only resurrected to life to be forever condemned to the lake of fire that is the second death. What gap are you referring to? The dead remain dead and in the graves until an hour that is coming when the last trumpet sounds.

 

[rwb]

You are reading your own doctrine into the verse. The word anastasis only refers to the resurrection of the body. It's never talking about a 'spiritual' resurrection.

I agree! Christ is telling us He is the resurrection and the life, being the first resurrection to physical life who shall never die again. And the only way that mankind may still be alive after physical death is if in life they have part in the resurrection life of Christ who is the "first resurrection" and the only one that gives us both everlasting spiritual life, as well as immortal physical life when the last trumpet sounds.

 

[Davidpt]

Well unless you insert a gap, like the gap some people insert between the 69th and 70th weeks, then the the rest of the dead live after the thousand years are finished, they don’t remain dead until after Satans little season.

Apparently then, to get to the bottom of this debate involving the thousand years, understanding why the rest of the dead don't live again until after the thousand years, is relevant. Does it mean the rest of the dead meant here are all bodily dead at the beginning of the thousand years and remain bodily dead throughout the thousand years, or does it mean something else? Do the rest of the dead meant here have any involvement with satan's little season, as in they are alive and well during it? If they do, how did they manage to live again after the thousand years unless they are bodily raised first? How does it make sense that satan needs to deceive someone already bodily dead until they come back to life, someone already deceived before they died, someone already unsaved when they died, because clearly, whoever the rest of the dead are meaning, these are meaning the unsaved not the saved, since only the saved have part in the first resurrection, not the unsaved as well.

 

[grafted branch]

The dead are not judged until after Satan has his little season so they cannot be resurrected to life again until after the thousand years and Satan's little season. They are only resurrected to life to be forever condemned to the lake of fire that is the second death. What gap are you referring to? The dead remain dead and in the graves until an hour that is coming when the last trumpet sounds.

The text says they do live after the thousand years, you must be incorrect about something else if you have them not living after the thousand years. Revelation 20:5 says But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished.

If there’s no gap then how are you explaining this? How can the rest of the dead not live during Satans little season when this season happens after the thousand years?

 

[rwb]

Apparently then, to get to the bottom of this debate involving the thousand years, understanding why the rest of the dead don't live again until after the thousand years, is relevant. Does it mean the rest of the dead meant here are all bodily dead at the beginning of the thousand years and remain bodily dead throughout the thousand years, or does it mean something else? Do the rest of the dead meant here have any involvement with satan's little season, as in they are alive and well during it? If they do, how did they manage to live again after the thousand years unless they are bodily raised first? How does it make sense that satan needs to deceive someone already deceived, already unsaved, because clearly, whoever the rest of the dead are meaning, these are meaning the unsaved not the saved, since only the saved have part in the first resurrection, not the unsaved as well.

John only mentions the dead who are not among those alive after they were martyred. They were not of the first resurrection through the resurrection life of Christ. So they remain in the graves, and not with the living after physical death. IOW they died in unbelief which is why they are the rest of the dead and not among those who in life lived and reigned with Christ before they were martyred for their faithfulness. They will not be resurrected to life again to stand before God to be judged until an hour coming when the last trumpet sounds.

 

[grafted branch]

Apparently then, to get to the bottom of this debate involving the thousand years, understanding why the rest of the dead don't live again until after the thousand years, is relevant. Does it mean the rest of the dead meant here are all bodily dead at the beginning of the thousand years and remain bodily dead throughout the thousand years, or does it mean something else? Do the rest of the dead meant here have any involvement with satan's little season, as in they are alive and well during it? If they do, how did they manage to live again after the thousand years unless they are bodily raised first? How does it make sense that satan needs to deceive someone already bodily dead until they come back to life, someone already deceived before they died, someone already unsaved when they died, because clearly, whoever the rest of the dead are meaning, these are meaning the unsaved not the saved, since only the saved have part in the first resurrection, not the unsaved as well.

I think those who were beheaded is referring to the old covenant/Old Testament saints and when Christ died they were beheaded as in their Messiah was cut off.

Some of the old covenant people did recognize Jesus as the Messiah and they lived and reigned with Christ while alive on earth as Marty points out in Ephesians 2:4-6, Colossians 3:1, and Romans 5:17.

The rest of the dead (old covenant people who didn’t see Jesus as the Messiah) lived not again until the Son of man is revealed in Luke 17:30. The camp of the saints is surrounded by Gentiles and it is the camp of the saints (Jerusalem) that’s destroyed in 70AD.

 

[rwb]

The text says they do live after the thousand years, you must be incorrect about something else if you have them not living after the thousand years. Revelation 20:5 says But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished.

If there’s no gap then how are you explaining this? How can the rest of the dead not live during Satans little season when this season happens after the thousand years?

They will live again after the thousand years! They shall be resurrected to physical life to stand before the GWTJ of God after the thousand years expire and Satan's little season has ended! There is no gap, they remain dead and in the graves until an hour coming when the last trumpet sounds. The text does not say the dead will be physically raised to life on this earth again for Satan's little season, or for any other time.

 

[grafted branch]

They will live again after the thousand years! They shall be resurrected to physical life to stand before the GWTJ of God after the thousand years expire and Satan's little season has ended! There is no gap, they remain dead and in the graves until an hour coming when the last trumpet sounds. The text does not say the dead will be physically raised to life on this earth again for Satan's little season, or for any other time.

So the day after the thousand years are ended are the rest of the dead alive or not? If not, then they don’t live again after the thousand years are finished which is in contradiction to Revelation 20/5.

 

[rwb]

So the day after the thousand years are ended are the rest of the dead alive or not? If not, then they don’t live again after the thousand years are finished which is in contradiction to Revelation 20/5.

They cannot physically live again before an hour coming when the last trumpet sounds. It is not a contradiction, John writes only that they will not live again until this time, the thousand years expires, and they don't! They remain dead and in the graves until the GWTJ comes and they are bodily resurrected for damnation.

"This is the first resurrection" should be read with vs 6, where we read those who have part in the first resurrection are called blessed and holy, have part in the first resurrection, and overcome the second death and SHALL live with Christ during their lifetime symbolized a thousand years. Btw, this is the same time symbolized a thousand years those martyred for their faith lived and reigned with Christ before they were martyred for their faith.

Revelation 20:5 (KJV) But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

Revelation 20:6 (KJV) Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

The rest of the dead are the dead called to stand before the GWTJ after the thousand years have ended and Satan has had his little season. They are not blessed and holy and have not overcome the second death, being cast into the lake of fire that is the second death.

 

[Davidpt]

If not, then they don’t live again after the thousand years are finished which is in contradiction to Revelation 20/5.

Is or is not after satan's little season has ended, that this is meaning after the thousand years have expired? Obviously, it would be meaning after the thousand years expired since the end of satan's little season couldn't possibly be meaning before the thousand years begin. Nor can it be meaning during the thousand years. That leaves only one option remaining, that at the end of satan's little season, this is meaning after the thousand years have expired, therefore, contradicting nothing in the text.