Matthew 24

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TribulationSigns

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Sir, I have never said that I did not believe that Christ spoke to his disciples about what they would experience, because they did, yet, only a lesser degree than what will occur in the latter days during a tribulation that would be greater for the church (God's called out ones) than ever has been since the beginning of time, so much more to cause them to flee the professing churches in this world.

The beast will make war with the saints and overcome them during this great tribulation period. Read Revelation 13 for a starter.

Agreed. What many people don't realize is that when Christ spoke to his disciples, He spoke to His Church universal. For example,
when God talks to these 7 churches, He is not talking to just those specific 7 or specific first century, He is talking to and warning ALL messengers of God's church universally. The totality of them which spans throughout time. We today are part of the seven (totality / universal) churches to whom God gives these warnings and encouragements. When He talks to one, He talks to all throughout time.

1st Timothy 1:1-2
  • "Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the commandment of God our Saviour, and Lord Jesus Christ, which is our hope;
  • Unto Timothy, my own son in the faith: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God our Father and Jesus Christ our Lord."
This passage speaks to Timothy, but its message is intended for all messengers of God, universally. The letter is not exclusively for Timothy; rather, it is inspired and meant for every Christian who reads the Bible, throughout history. The messages to the seven churches of Asia and the story of the star falling also represent universal messages applicable to all saints. Similarly, when Christ spoke to His disciples in the parable of the Fig Tree, He addressed His church universally, and the prophecies clearly will apply to His church during the Great Tribulation right before His Second Coming, not just to the events of 70 AD or the 1st century.
 
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covenantee

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Sir, I have never said that I did not believe that Christ spoke to his disciples about what they would experience, because they did, yet, only a lesser degree than what will occur in the latter days during a tribulation that would be greater for the church (God's called out ones) than ever has been since the beginning of time, so much more to cause them to flee the professing churches in this world.

The beast will make war with the saints and overcome them during this great tribulation period. Read Revelation 13 for a starter.


I can say the same.

I do not believe this to be so with me~I'm still learning, searching and trusting God for more light. You would be wise to do the same.


Sir, how do you know that this is not so with you?
The literal destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD was essential to accomplish no less than two of God's purposes.

Physically, to visit physical judgment and destruction by God upon the nation which had rejected His Son, and to obliterate all obsolete physical vestiges of the abolished old covenant, e.g. the physical temple, the physical sacrifices and oblations, the old covenant priesthood, et al.

Spiritually, to confirm the spiritual establishment and reign of the New Covenant, Kingdom, Priesthood, Worship, et al; which were accomplished by Christ at Calvary.

Recognition of the literal reality of 70 AD is the united understanding of a clear majority of recognized historical Bible expositors.

Thus are described momentous physical events heralding, affirming, and confirming, momentous spiritual events; in the history of God's dealings with Israel, and with all mankind.

The physical and the spiritual are inextricably interwoven and intertwined in Matthew 24.

That is the context of Matthew 24...

And the reality.
 
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Red Baker

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The literal destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD was essential to accomplish no less than two of God's purposes.

Physically, to visit physical judgment and destruction by God upon the nation which had rejected His Son, and to obliterate all obsolete physical vestiges of the abolished old covenant, e.g. the physical temple, the physical sacrifices and oblations, the old covenant priesthood, et al.

Spiritually, to confirm the spiritual establishment and reign of the New Covenant, Kingdom, Priesthood, Worship, et al; which were accomplished by Christ at Calvary.
Greetings covenantee~I have no problem with your statement here, none whatsoever. I might would add, the destruction of Israel as a nation and scattering them all over the world, again, and again (since they were to a degree, first by the Assyrians, and then by the Babylonians, for their rejection of God's worship, substituting idols worship, etc.) to show that God was forever finished with them as people to whom:

That nation served their God's given purpose, now post the cross of Jesus Christ, God is revealing even more of his hidden eternal purpose, which he purposed in Christ, according to his own will and good pleasure.

The natural children of Abraham are not the promised seed, but all that are born as Isaac was are counted for the true election of grace~he was born based on two immutable acts of God, his oath, and his promise, so are all NT believers, no difference whatsoever. Galatians 4.

So, though I do not relied upon, trust, or even need history other than what is recorded in the scriptures, your words above I accept as true~both the physical part and spiritually part.
The physical and the spiritual are inextricably interwoven and intertwined in Matthew 24.

That is the context of Matthew 24...
This I disagree with, since the context does not support this view. I was taught this when I first came to Christ, back in the early seventies, and just accepted this teaching believe this to be so, until my eyes were opened. The sound bites are there, yet that does not automatically prove that it is so~we do not go with sound bites but with the true sense of those sound bites (much like John 3:16, etc.) by comparing scriptures with scriptures and let them render to us their true hidden meaning ~ and they will. We trust to do more verses in Matthew 24, as the week moves forward and as time permits.
 

rwb

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Agreed. What many people don't realize is that when Christ spoke to his disciples, He spoke to His Church universal.

If you believe this, why do you argue against the chosen generation as "this generation" Christ said would not pass until all these things shall be fulfilled?
 
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Rella ~ I am a woman

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If you believe this, why do you argue against the chosen generation as "this generation" Christ said would not pass until all these things shall be fulfilled?
A little light reading for all posters here. I suspect it will be too long, so when needed I will cut it and you can finish at the link.


What does “this generation” mean in Matthew 24:34? There are three possible meanings to this phrase. We can discover the meaning after we understand the context of the verse.

Context of the Olivet Discourse​

The answer Jesus gave to His disciples about the end times is called the Olivet Discourse. The context of Matthew 24:1-25:46; Mark 13:5-27; and Luke 21:8-28 is that the disciples wanted to know when “will all these things be.” They wanted to know the signs of the end times. Earlier Luke 19:11 reveals the disciples assumed the kingdom of God would appear immediately, but they were wrong. Later after Christ’s death and resurrection Luke 24:21 tells us that two disciples were looking for the kingdom. In addition, Acts 1:6 says the disciples asked when the kingdom would appear. Matthew 24:4 already told us the disciples were curious about the end time events. That is, the disciple’s overriding concern of the disciples in the final days of Jesus’ earthly ministry was about the arrival of the earthly kingdom. However, amillennialist, postmillennialist and preterists would have us believe they were primarily concerned about the temple. But the message of the gospels and the book of Acts reveal that is not true. So, the content of this generation” in Matthew 24:34 is about future events, and not about the temple.

Meaning of This Generation — Option 1​

The Greek word that is translated as “generation” in Matthew 24:34 is genea. This word means more than just “generation.” It has the idea of birth, descent, descendants, family, and race. It was even used to refer to the end times.[1] Therefore, some have claimed that “this generation” refers to the Jewish race. That is, the Jewish race would not disappear until the tribulation and the second coming of Christ have occurred for Matthew 24:34 states that this generation would not pass away “until all these things take place.” That is, all these things that are described in verses 5-24. If that were the correct meaning, then the promise would be an empty or hollow one because the Jewish race will continue until heaven and earth have passed away (2 Peter 3:10-13) is realized. This option would imply that Jesus hoped all these things would occur in some far distant future before everyone died. So, this generation cannot refer to the Jewish race.

Meaning of This Generation — Option 2​

A second view says the word generation refers to the generation of people who were alive when Jesus gave the Olivet Discourse in A.D. 33. Some claim that “generation” consistently means the people who were alive in Jesus’ day throughout the New Testament. But a search for genea in the New Testament reveals that is not true. The word genea occurs forty-three times in the New Testament. The plural form of genea is used many times to refer to multiple generations and not just the people who were alive at the time of Christ. But we are interested in the singular form of genea. So here are a few examples. They are sufficient to demonstrate that the singular form of genea does not always refer to the people of Jesus’ day. For example, in Luke 1:50 it is clear that generation does not refer to those in Christ’s time. It says, “upon generation after generation.” In Hebrews 3:9-10, generation does not refer to people to whom Jesus spoke those words either. It refers to the generation in the wilderness. The context is important. Some Bible teachers would have us believe that generation as used in the New Testament always refers to the people of Jesus’ time prior to A.D. 70.

But the context of the Matthew passage is about the generation who will be living when all these things occur. That is the context of the passage. So, amillennialist, postmillennialist and preterists, without solid proof, speculate that the generation referred to a time span of thirty or forty years, since that is the time from procreation to procreation and takes them from A.D. 33 to A.D. 70. It is important to remember that generation is not a technical term. It is a general word with broad Semantic range and must be interpreted by the context.

Now if we assume that generation does refer to the people of Jesus’ time, we have a serious problem with this view. First, all these things did not occur before A.D. 70. For example, the prophecy in Matthew 24:14 that states the gospel would be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations could not have occurred before A.D. 70. What we know is that the gospel may have been preached in Spain since the apostle Paul had hoped to do that. But there is no proof the gospel was ever preached there or any in any other of the continents on the globe. That is, the gospel was not preached to all nations. It is speculation that it must have occurred, but speculation does not prove occurrence.

A second point is that both Daniel 9:27 and 12:11 refer to the abomination of desolation as a future event, but Daniel 11:31 does not. Yet, some Bible teachers want us to believe Matthew 24:15 is referring exclusively to only Daniel 11:31. That was a past event. But it is more likely that Jesus referred to the future desolation event described in Daniel 9:27 and 12:11. The context of Daniel 12 is the final resurrection at the end of the age—resurrection and rewards. So, Daniel 12:11 could not have occurred in AD. 70, unless one wants to employ an allegorical hermeneutic and not a literal one. An allegorical hermeneutic will allow the author to creatively redefine anything in the pages of Scripture that does not fit his eschatological system.

Third, Matthew 24:30 says that Christ would be seen in the clouds of the sky.

And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the SON OF MAN COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF THE SKY with power and great glory. Matthew 24:30 (NASB)
Some Bible teachers would have us believe that verse 30 says the people would see a sign. So, they ask what was the sign? Just notice the context. It defines the sign. It says the people would see the Son of Man. The sign will be the Son of Man. The Greek scholar A. T. Robertson states that the correct understanding of the first part of the verse is “and then will appear the sign, which is the Son of Man in heaven.” In Greek grammar this is an appositional use of the genitive case.[2] Advocates of this view state this sign occurred in A.D. 70 when the Romans destroyed Jerusalem and the temple. But Mark 13:26 clearly and literally tells us “they will see the Son of Man.” Jesus will be the sign, and not some celestial anomalies.

Fourth, notice that Matthew 24:30 says “all the tribes of the earth will mourn” when they see the Son of Man coming. But there are no historical records of anyone seeing Jesus in A.D. 70. It is not enough to claim the second coming of Christ occurred over Jerusalem. Some Bible teachers change their literal approach to an allegorical approach of interpretation and speculate that all the tribes of the earth will mourn” means the tribes of Israel. That is, “all the tribes of the earth” does not mean all the tribes of the earth. The whole earth does not need to see Him. But the verse says all of the tribes of the world will see this event. They would see Jesus and not some unusual event in the sky. Jesus clearly implied it would be a worldwide spectacle in verse 27. Verse 27 indicates that everyone who is alive will see Him. The point is that the second coming did not occur in Jerusalem in A.D. 70. To claim that the second coming did occur in a spiritual sense begs the question why not a physical occurrence?

Fifth, the event in Matthew 24:31 has not occurred yet. Those who claim verse 31 has already occurred cannot support their claim. If all of the elect were gathered together, where did the angels collect them?

And He will send forth His angels with A GREAT TRUMPET and THEY WILL GATHER TOGETHER His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other. Matthew 24:31 (NASB)
Go to the link to finish Option 2 of Meaning of this Generation

Go to the link for Meaning of this Generation -Option 3 and Conclusion
 

Red Baker

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If you believe this, why do you argue against the chosen generation as "this generation" Christ said would not pass until all these things shall be fulfilled?
Greetings rwb~TribulationSigns I"m sure will give you a answer, but so will I, since we both have very similar understanding concerning eschatology.

If you go through the scriptures, the exact phrase...."This generation"..... always applies to the wicked/ungodly among the generation of the righteous~there will be no exceptions to this rule. I'll just give you some verses in Luke's gospel.

Luke 11:29~"And when the people were gathered thick together, he began to say, This is an evil generation: they seek a sign; and there shall no sign be given it, but the sign of Jonas the prophet." Context proves that it is a type of people.

Luke 11:30~"For as Jonas was a sign unto the Ninevites, so shall also the Son of man be to this generation. As always in the NT, speaking of a type of people.

Luke 11:31~"The queen of the south shall rise up in the judgment with the men of This generation, and condemn them: for she came from the utmost parts of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and, behold, a greater than Solomon is here." A type of people.

Luke 11:32~"The men of Nineveh shall rise up in the judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: for they repented at the preaching of Jonas; and, behold, a greater than Jonas is here." No question, a type of people.

Luke 11:50~"That the blood of all the prophets, which was shed from the foundation of the world, may be required of this generation;" A very important scriptures which can only be interpreted to mean evil and wicked, faithless and perverse people. THey are the very ones that have shed blood upon the earth without a cause.

Luke 11:51~"From the blood of Abel unto the blood of Zacharias, which perished between the altar and the temple: verily I say unto you, It shall be required of this generation." Well this should settle the issue, that this generation has reference to the wicked that has lived in every generation, who have shed man's blood from Abel by Cain, who was of that wicked One, to the prophet Zechariah.

I have several that could be provided, but here are a few just from one chapter of one book of the word of God. The Spirit of God carefully has chosen the phrase This generation to describe a certain type of a individuals known by their wicked deeds of rejecting the word of God, because of their hatred for God, and his people. This is the same generation mentioned by Christ in his last message taught before he went to the cross~so, it must be very, very important that God's children take heed and carefully considered the meaning of every word spoken by the Lord as his last warning before leaving his people.
 

Rella ~ I am a woman

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Greetings rwb~TribulationSigns I"m sure will give you a answer, but so will I, since we both have very similar understanding concerning eschatology.

If you go through the scriptures, the exact phrase...."This generation"..... always applies to the wicked/ungodly among the generation of the righteous~there will be no exceptions to this rule. I'll just give you some verses in Luke's gospel.

Luke 11:29~"And when the people were gathered thick together, he began to say, This is an evil generation: they seek a sign; and there shall no sign be given it, but the sign of Jonas the prophet." Context proves that it is a type of people.

Luke 11:30~"For as Jonas was a sign unto the Ninevites, so shall also the Son of man be to this generation. As always in the NT, speaking of a type of people.

Luke 11:31~"The queen of the south shall rise up in the judgment with the men of This generation, and condemn them: for she came from the utmost parts of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and, behold, a greater than Solomon is here." A type of people.

Luke 11:32~"The men of Nineveh shall rise up in the judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: for they repented at the preaching of Jonas; and, behold, a greater than Jonas is here." No question, a type of people.

Luke 11:50~"That the blood of all the prophets, which was shed from the foundation of the world, may be required of this generation;" A very important scriptures which can only be interpreted to mean evil and wicked, faithless and perverse people. THey are the very ones that have shed blood upon the earth without a cause.

Luke 11:51~"From the blood of Abel unto the blood of Zacharias, which perished between the altar and the temple: verily I say unto you, It shall be required of this generation." Well this should settle the issue, that this generation has reference to the wicked that has lived in every generation, who have shed man's blood from Abel by Cain, who was of that wicked One, to the prophet Zechariah.

I have several that could be provided, but here are a few just from one chapter of one book of the word of God. The Spirit of God carefully has chosen the phrase This generation to describe a certain type of a individuals known by their wicked deeds of rejecting the word of God, because of their hatred for God, and his people. This is the same generation mentioned by Christ in his last message taught before he went to the cross~so, it must be very, very important that God's children take heed and carefully considered the meaning of every word spoken by the Lord as his last warning before leaving his people.
Okay, then why do preterists... especially your friend and mine always us that as solidifying 70AD was Jesus' coming.


I dont disbelieve this... I am just arming myself for another go round somewhere.
 

rwb

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Greetings rwb~TribulationSigns I"m sure will give you a answer, but so will I, since we both have very similar understanding concerning eschatology.

If you go through the scriptures, the exact phrase...."This generation"..... always applies to the wicked/ungodly among the generation of the righteous~there will be no exceptions to this rule. I'll just give you some verses in Luke's gospel.

Luke 11:29~"And when the people were gathered thick together, he began to say, This is an evil generation: they seek a sign; and there shall no sign be given it, but the sign of Jonas the prophet." Context proves that it is a type of people.

Luke 11:30~"For as Jonas was a sign unto the Ninevites, so shall also the Son of man be to this generation. As always in the NT, speaking of a type of people.

Luke 11:31~"The queen of the south shall rise up in the judgment with the men of This generation, and condemn them: for she came from the utmost parts of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and, behold, a greater than Solomon is here." A type of people.

Luke 11:32~"The men of Nineveh shall rise up in the judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: for they repented at the preaching of Jonas; and, behold, a greater than Jonas is here." No question, a type of people.

Luke 11:50~"That the blood of all the prophets, which was shed from the foundation of the world, may be required of this generation;" A very important scriptures which can only be interpreted to mean evil and wicked, faithless and perverse people. THey are the very ones that have shed blood upon the earth without a cause.

Luke 11:51~"From the blood of Abel unto the blood of Zacharias, which perished between the altar and the temple: verily I say unto you, It shall be required of this generation." Well this should settle the issue, that this generation has reference to the wicked that has lived in every generation, who have shed man's blood from Abel by Cain, who was of that wicked One, to the prophet Zechariah.

I have several that could be provided, but here are a few just from one chapter of one book of the word of God. The Spirit of God carefully has chosen the phrase This generation to describe a certain type of a individuals known by their wicked deeds of rejecting the word of God, because of their hatred for God, and his people. This is the same generation mentioned by Christ in his last message taught before he went to the cross~so, it must be very, very important that God's children take heed and carefully considered the meaning of every word spoken by the Lord as his last warning before leaving his people.

What you fail to acknowledge is how "this generation" is speaking of Israel in unbelief. Are there none among Israel when Christ came that while being of "this generation" are not also faithful disciples of Christ? While specifically speaking to "this generation" of His disciples Christ very specifically says they shall not pass until all these things be fulfilled. Neither the evil generation nor the chosen generation among them shall pass away until all these things be fulfilled. But the focus of Christ continues to be preaching of the Gospel of the Kingdom of God that cannot be visibly seen that Christ has said is NOT of this world. There is no reason for telling the disciples the evil generation will be with them always, after He has already told them of all the great tribulation they shall suffer for His names sake! But there is great reason to give them assurance their preaching will not be in vain, because beginning with this faithful few the spiritual Kingdom of God in heaven will be complete despite the great spiritual battle between the forces of good and evil that will ensue trying to prevent the Kingdom of God from being built. That's why "this generation" is not inclusive of the evil around and within. Christ is promising them their faithfulness shall indeed be rewarded because the spiritual Kingdom of God beginning through them will become an innumerable multitude that no man can number. The promise the chosen generation shall not pass will keep them strong in the faith as they proclaim the Gospel of the Kingdom of God unto all the world as a witness to all nations. Then the end shall come.
 
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rwb

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A little light reading for all posters here. I suspect it will be too long, so when needed I will cut it and you can finish at the link.


What does “this generation” mean in Matthew 24:34? There are three possible meanings to this phrase. We can discover the meaning after we understand the context of the verse.

Context of the Olivet Discourse​

The answer Jesus gave to His disciples about the end times is called the Olivet Discourse. The context of Matthew 24:1-25:46; Mark 13:5-27; and Luke 21:8-28 is that the disciples wanted to know when “will all these things be.” They wanted to know the signs of the end times. Earlier Luke 19:11 reveals the disciples assumed the kingdom of God would appear immediately, but they were wrong. Later after Christ’s death and resurrection Luke 24:21 tells us that two disciples were looking for the kingdom. In addition, Acts 1:6 says the disciples asked when the kingdom would appear. Matthew 24:4 already told us the disciples were curious about the end time events. That is, the disciple’s overriding concern of the disciples in the final days of Jesus’ earthly ministry was about the arrival of the earthly kingdom. However, amillennialist, postmillennialist and preterists would have us believe they were primarily concerned about the temple. But the message of the gospels and the book of Acts reveal that is not true. So, the content of this generation” in Matthew 24:34 is about future events, and not about the temple.

Meaning of This Generation — Option 1​

The Greek word that is translated as “generation” in Matthew 24:34 is genea. This word means more than just “generation.” It has the idea of birth, descent, descendants, family, and race. It was even used to refer to the end times.[1] Therefore, some have claimed that “this generation” refers to the Jewish race. That is, the Jewish race would not disappear until the tribulation and the second coming of Christ have occurred for Matthew 24:34 states that this generation would not pass away “until all these things take place.” That is, all these things that are described in verses 5-24. If that were the correct meaning, then the promise would be an empty or hollow one because the Jewish race will continue until heaven and earth have passed away (2 Peter 3:10-13) is realized. This option would imply that Jesus hoped all these things would occur in some far distant future before everyone died. So, this generation cannot refer to the Jewish race.

Meaning of This Generation — Option 2​

A second view says the word generation refers to the generation of people who were alive when Jesus gave the Olivet Discourse in A.D. 33. Some claim that “generation” consistently means the people who were alive in Jesus’ day throughout the New Testament. But a search for genea in the New Testament reveals that is not true. The word genea occurs forty-three times in the New Testament. The plural form of genea is used many times to refer to multiple generations and not just the people who were alive at the time of Christ. But we are interested in the singular form of genea. So here are a few examples. They are sufficient to demonstrate that the singular form of genea does not always refer to the people of Jesus’ day. For example, in Luke 1:50 it is clear that generation does not refer to those in Christ’s time. It says, “upon generation after generation.” In Hebrews 3:9-10, generation does not refer to people to whom Jesus spoke those words either. It refers to the generation in the wilderness. The context is important. Some Bible teachers would have us believe that generation as used in the New Testament always refers to the people of Jesus’ time prior to A.D. 70.

But the context of the Matthew passage is about the generation who will be living when all these things occur. That is the context of the passage. So, amillennialist, postmillennialist and preterists, without solid proof, speculate that the generation referred to a time span of thirty or forty years, since that is the time from procreation to procreation and takes them from A.D. 33 to A.D. 70. It is important to remember that generation is not a technical term. It is a general word with broad Semantic range and must be interpreted by the context.

Now if we assume that generation does refer to the people of Jesus’ time, we have a serious problem with this view. First, all these things did not occur before A.D. 70. For example, the prophecy in Matthew 24:14 that states the gospel would be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations could not have occurred before A.D. 70. What we know is that the gospel may have been preached in Spain since the apostle Paul had hoped to do that. But there is no proof the gospel was ever preached there or any in any other of the continents on the globe. That is, the gospel was not preached to all nations. It is speculation that it must have occurred, but speculation does not prove occurrence.

A second point is that both Daniel 9:27 and 12:11 refer to the abomination of desolation as a future event, but Daniel 11:31 does not. Yet, some Bible teachers want us to believe Matthew 24:15 is referring exclusively to only Daniel 11:31. That was a past event. But it is more likely that Jesus referred to the future desolation event described in Daniel 9:27 and 12:11. The context of Daniel 12 is the final resurrection at the end of the age—resurrection and rewards. So, Daniel 12:11 could not have occurred in AD. 70, unless one wants to employ an allegorical hermeneutic and not a literal one. An allegorical hermeneutic will allow the author to creatively redefine anything in the pages of Scripture that does not fit his eschatological system.

Third, Matthew 24:30 says that Christ would be seen in the clouds of the sky.


Some Bible teachers would have us believe that verse 30 says the people would see a sign. So, they ask what was the sign? Just notice the context. It defines the sign. It says the people would see the Son of Man. The sign will be the Son of Man. The Greek scholar A. T. Robertson states that the correct understanding of the first part of the verse is “and then will appear the sign, which is the Son of Man in heaven.” In Greek grammar this is an appositional use of the genitive case.[2] Advocates of this view state this sign occurred in A.D. 70 when the Romans destroyed Jerusalem and the temple. But Mark 13:26 clearly and literally tells us “they will see the Son of Man.” Jesus will be the sign, and not some celestial anomalies.

Fourth, notice that Matthew 24:30 says “all the tribes of the earth will mourn” when they see the Son of Man coming. But there are no historical records of anyone seeing Jesus in A.D. 70. It is not enough to claim the second coming of Christ occurred over Jerusalem. Some Bible teachers change their literal approach to an allegorical approach of interpretation and speculate that all the tribes of the earth will mourn” means the tribes of Israel. That is, “all the tribes of the earth” does not mean all the tribes of the earth. The whole earth does not need to see Him. But the verse says all of the tribes of the world will see this event. They would see Jesus and not some unusual event in the sky. Jesus clearly implied it would be a worldwide spectacle in verse 27. Verse 27 indicates that everyone who is alive will see Him. The point is that the second coming did not occur in Jerusalem in A.D. 70. To claim that the second coming did occur in a spiritual sense begs the question why not a physical occurrence?

Fifth, the event in Matthew 24:31 has not occurred yet. Those who claim verse 31 has already occurred cannot support their claim. If all of the elect were gathered together, where did the angels collect them?


Go to the link to finish Option 2 of Meaning of this Generation

Go to the link for Meaning of this Generation -Option 3 and Conclusion

We have to understand when Christ speaks of "this generation" He is speaking of Israel. But Israel is not all in unbelief, belonging to the evil generation living among the chosen generation of Christ. Israel is only in partial blindness, with the remnant according to election of grace. You can refer to reply #149 to understand why I believe when Christ speaks to His first disciples, calling them "this generation" that shall not pass until all these things are fulfilled He is referring to the "chosen generation" that shall be with an evil and adulterous generation to the end of days. This gives the disciples of Christ assurance that as they preach the Gospel of the Kingdom of God under threat of great tribulation and martyrdom, they will not become discouraged and lack faith knowing that Christ has promised the chosen generation shall not pass until all these things are fulfilled.

1 Peter 2:9-10 (KJV) But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light: Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.
 
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Davidpt

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What you fail to acknowledge is how "this generation" is speaking of Israel in unbelief. Are there none among Israel when Christ came that while being of "this generation" are not also faithful disciples of Christ? While specifically speaking to "this generation" of His disciples Christ very specifically says they shall not pass until all these things be fulfilled. Neither the evil generation nor the chosen generation among them shall pass away until all these things be fulfilled. But the focus of Christ continues to be preaching of the Gospel of the Kingdom of God that cannot be visibly seen that Christ has said is NOT of this world. There is no reason for telling the disciples the evil generation will be with them always, after He has already told them of all the great tribulation they shall suffer for His names sake! But there is great reason to give them assurance their preaching will not be in vain, because beginning with this faithful few the spiritual Kingdom of God in heaven will be complete despite the great spiritual battle between the forces of good and evil that will ensue trying to prevent the Kingdom of God from being built. That's why "this generation" is not inclusive of the evil around and within. Christ is promising them their faithfulness shall indeed be rewarded because the spiritual Kingdom of God beginning through them will become an innumerable multitude that no man can number. The promise the chosen generation shall not pass will keep them strong in the faith as they proclaim the Gospel of the Kingdom of God unto all the world as a witness to all nations. Then the end shall come.

Roger, it's simple if we allow 2 Peter 2 and 2 Peter 3, for example, to help us interpret 'this generation' meant in the Discourse.

2 Peter 3:4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.
5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:
6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:

If we then go back to ch 2, we see the following.

2 Peter 2:5 And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly;

It is then pretty obvious as to what is being meant by the world that then was(2 Peter 3:6). It is meaning the world of the ungodly.

2 Peter 3:7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.


But the heavens and the earth, 'which are now'---meaning following Noah's flood, thus, which are now, rather than 'that then was'(verse 6), by the same word are kept in store, meaning this---by the word of God the heavens were of old---reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. Thus it is ungodly men that don't pass away until all things are fulfilled first. In the meantime the world of the ungodly continues throughout the earth. But once everything is fulfilled, the heavens and earth pass away and with it the ungodly men pass away, as in they no longer exist among the living. Which of course tends to present a problem for Premil, but that is for another thread, I guess.

To pass away, per the context this is involving, means to perish. Why would you think saints need to perish with the passing away of the heavens and earth? That could not be a good thing, obviously. Yet, it would be a good thing that when the heavens and earth pass away, so does the world of the ungodly pass away with it.
 

Red Baker

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We have to understand when Christ speaks of "this generation" He is speaking of Israel.
Sir, you cannot get past that stumbling block that is preventing you to see the truth concerning the Spirit's use of those two words...... "this generation"
He is speaking of Israel.
Not one time is the nation of Israel meant by the phrase~"this" generation, not once.

This generation consist only of men who were crooked, perverse, evil and wicked among the chosen generation whom Jesus called the very elect. LIsten carefully to the prophet David, who knew what you refuse to acknowledge and confess:

If the ungodly shall fail among the chosen generation, then pray to tell me what increases? Ungodly and wicked men. This wicked generation of serpents attack God's people and his word, yet God has promised us that he will preserve his word from this generation. There are only two generation of people living in this world, one loved, chosen, and righteous, the other wicked and are reprobates, vessels of God's wrath, appointed unto destruction.
you can refer to reply #149 to understand why I believe when Christ speaks to His first disciples, calling them "this generation" that shall not pass until all these things are fulfilled He is referring to the "chosen generation" that shall be with an evil and adulterous generation to the end of days.
Let us consider this post to me, shall we. I see several errors in your short post. I'm not here to expose you per se, or to attack your person, God forbid, but your teachings/understanding...Let us look at your post to me, not necessarily in order in which you posted it to me.

Error number one:
What you fail to acknowledge is how "this generation" is speaking of Israel in unbelief.
No where in all four of the gospel's does the Lord once refer to Israel after the flesh as this generation, including according to you both Israel in unbelief and the righteous among them. For you said:
What you fail to acknowledge is how "this generation" is speaking of Israel in unbelief. Are there none among Israel when Christ came that while being of "this generation" are not also faithful disciples of Christ? While specifically speaking to "this generation" of His disciples Christ very specifically says they shall not pass until all these things be fulfilled. Neither the evil generation nor the chosen generation among them shall pass away until all these things be fulfilled.
So, according to your understanding, evil generation and chosen generation among Israel, equals this generation! You are very confused in your understanding of the use of this generation as used by the Spirit of God, through his prophets, John the Baptist and Christ himself.

Error number two:
There is no reason for telling the disciples the evil generation will be with them always, after He has already told them of all the great tribulation they shall suffer for His names sake!
You are confused on the meaning of the great tribulation period spoken by Christ~The righteous have always suffered tribulation from the hands of evil and wicked men~but, the tribulation under consideration in Matthew 24 is spiritual in nature, not so much physical! It will be a time when the man of sin...man of sin....shall take over the churches throughout this world, ruling and controlling them for his personal gain, with God's word no longer preach, love and fear. The true doctrines of God no longer preached, effeminate men and boyish women have taken control of ruling in God's temple. Every abomination in God's sight is accepted as pleasing to God, etc. etc. As time come to a close, it will get worse and worse. Sdomy will be accepted as normal from the pulpits, same sex marriage will be likewise accepted..changing one's sex, no problem, or at least they will be neutral about such issues. Unconditional election of grace will no longer be accepted, and those who believe in such things will be rejected as false brethren. Old hymns traded for rock music, two or three services offered to meet people desire way of worshipping. On and on we can go.

Error number three:
But the focus of Christ continues to be preaching of the Gospel of the Kingdom of God that cannot be visibly seen that Christ has said is NOT of this world. There is no reason for telling the disciples the evil generation will be with them always, after He has already told them of all the great tribulation they shall suffer for His names sake!
Read the context of Matthew 24:5-35 the latter days of this world will be a time when this world will be flooded with false prophets and their followers. I'm reminded of one of the Lord parable found in matthew 13 which reads:
Christ's little flock started out very small in the beginning, much like a grain of mustard seed, the smallest of all seeds~but, look at the mega churches around the world and professed religion of Jesus Christ as a whole, this little mustard seed has grown into the largest entity in this world, hands down~so large, that the birds of the air have taken up loding place within her. Another way of saying that evils wicked spirits have taken over the churches throughout this world.

The modern day churches truly believe that their God given mission is to save the world~yet, their true mission is to feed God lambs and sheep! John 21. God's Spirit can locate and regenerate his sheep, and the church is to find them and feed and lead them into pleasing God, and worshipping him in spirit and in truth.

Error number four:
Christ is promising them their faithfulness shall indeed be rewarded because the spiritual Kingdom of God beginning through them will become an innumerable multitude that no man can number.
Actually, as time goes on, if God did not shortened the last days before his coming, then none would be saved with the true knowledge of God when he comes again!
The word saved here is used in a practical sense, meaning with true knowledge of true doctrines of the word of God. Read 2nd Timothy 3:1-4:5! Luke 18:8

So much could be said here, but enough for now.
 
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rwb

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Thus it is ungodly men that don't pass away until all things are fulfilled first. In the meantime the world of the ungodly continues throughout the earth. But once everything is fulfilled, the heavens and earth pass away and with it the ungodly men pass away, as in they no longer exist among the living. Which of course tends to present a problem for Premil, but that is for another thread, I guess.

I've never said ungodly mankind shall pass away before the end of days! The focus of the Discourse is not on ungodly mankind, it is words spoken to the "chosen generation" of Christ from the first century AD to the end of days.
Why would you think saints need to perish with the passing away of the heavens and earth? That could not be a good thing, obviously. Yet, it would be a good thing that when the heavens and earth pass away, so does the world of the ungodly pass away with it.

Neither have I said the saints of Christ need to perish when all these things are fulfilled!
 
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rwb

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SIr, you cannot get past that stumbling block that is preventing you to see the truth concerning the Spirit's use of those two words...... "this generation"

Really? I would suggest that is you!
 

rwb

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You are confused on the meaning of the great tribulation period spoken by Christ~The righteous have always suffered tribulation from the hands of evil and wicked men~but, the tribulation under consideration in Matthew 24 is spiritual in nature, not so much physical! It will be a time when the man of sin...man of sin....shall take over the churches throughout this world, ruling and controlling them for his personal gain, with God's word no longer preach, love and fear. The true doctrines of God no longer preached, effeminate men and boyish women have taken control of ruling in God's temple. Every abomination in God's sight is accepted as pleasing to God, etc. etc. As time come to a close, it will get worse and worse. Sdomy will be accepted as normal from the pulpits, same sex marriage will be likewise accepted..changing one's sex, no problem, or at least they will be neutral about such issues. Unconditional election of grace will no longer be accepted, and those who believe in such things will be rejected as false brethren. Old hymns traded for rock music, two or three services offered to meet people desire way of worshipping. On and on we can go.

I'm curious about both you and tribulationsigns, are both/either of you familiar with the site Mountain Retreat, moderated by Tony Warren?
 

Red Baker

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I'm curious about both you and tribulationsigns, are both/either of you familiar with the site Mountain Retreat, moderated by Tony Warren?
Of course I'm familiar with it, but nothing more. Tony is a godly man with godly wisdom which is displayed if one reads some of his post, other than that, I know little of~I agree with him on some things, some I do not. I have only spoken very briefly with through email, nothing more. The only person who thinks he does not have light is the person who himself is void of light.

I will read, consider and ponder all men who teach the scriptures, including you.
 
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rwb

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Of course I'm familiar with it, but nothing more. Tony is a godly man with godly wisdom which is displayed if one reads some of his post, other than that, I know little of~I agree with him on some things, some I do not. I have only spoken very briefly with through email, nothing more. The only person who thinks he does not have light is the person who himself is void of light.

I will read, consider and ponder all men who teach the scriptures, including you.

Yes, I thought I recognized the doctrine you both espouse. I am very familiar with Tony's teaching, and have learned greatly from him. I've read and studied many in fact probably most of his articles, and I too find him to be a Godly man, teaching truth, but like you, Tony too is a futurist, and cannot accept that the Olivet Discourse is not almost exclusively for the very last days just before Christ returns. Which IMHO makes a complete mockery of the words Christ spoke to His first century kinsmen according to the flesh.
 
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