Matthew 24

[TribulationSigns]

Speaking of problems, you are inventing problems that are not even true about me, lol. I already realize, and even said so, that the Discourse is mainly involving the church during His ascension through His return and what happens after He returns. As to Flavius Josephus, guess what? I have never to this day read all of what he wrote concerning this topic. I have read bits and pieces of it here and there is all. Plus what I have noted others saying about some of the things he wrote. There is no way in a million years I have too much respect for someone, such as him, let alone any respect, when I haven't even bothered to read everything he wrote pertaining to this subject to begin with.

As to the rest of this post and your next post, believe it or not, I'm on the same page with you about some of that. If only you understood the sheep and goats judgment in the same manner I do, and maybe you even do, that would put us even more on the same page. In my view the sheep and goats are meaning professed servants of Christ throughout the NT church age. The sheep meaning His profitable servants, the goats meaning His unprofitable servants. It for sure isn't meaning all the unsaved lost since the beginning of time. Cain, for example, would not be answering Christ in the following manner, the fact Christ's first advent was not remotely during the days he was living in---Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?(Matthew 25:44)

There were only TWO spiritual families on Earth: Satan's and God's. Of course, the unsaved lost (world) without relationship to the congregation of Israel, whether Israel or Church, all belong to Satan. In God's kingdom on Earth, there are two groups of people. One is the chosen Elect of the Old Testament (Israel) and the New Testament (Church). The other group is professed believers. It is the professed believers who are part of Satan's spiritual family within God's Kingdom because they were never sealed but serve corporately in God's kingdom and "protected" for the purpose of building the church together. However, In the end after all Elect has been secured, those who have not yet sealed, Revelation 9, they will spiritually join with the unsaved lost as the goats.

 

[TribulationSigns]

Christ did not tell them to look for the budding of the fig tree andall trees, but to his elect through the apostles.

The evil and adulterous generation of little serpents would increase greatly as this world comes to its end.

Sir, you have it wrong. Jesus used the fig and all tree, to teach us when those trees bring to put forth buds then we all know that summer is nigh at hand~so likewise, when we see those things which Jesus said would come to pass in Matthew 24 up until he spoke those words of the budding of the trees, then KNOW his coming is very near, even at the doors.

I must run for an appointment....later

Amen. That was what I was going to tell @rwb. Christ was not asking us to look for "LIFE" on fig tree AND all those trees. Just like today, if we go out and notice the budding of the trees in the spring time, we will "mentally know" that summer is near. So, "LIKEWISE", when we start to see things Christ prophesied concerning His Church RIGHT PRIOR to the Second Coming (not 70AD) , we will "mentally know" that CHrist's coming is near. No need for date-setting.

Nothing to do with 70AD because the Olivet Discourse was not prophesied about the first century BECAUSE the Old Testament congregation has already fallen at the Cross and in three days, the New Testament Congregation was born and commissioned on Pentecost to go forth to the rest of the world with Gospel Message.

 

[TribulationSigns]

Friend, it does not, yet this is not what is being taught concerning "this generation". But to warned them of evil and wicked men whom God calls an abomination that he will make desolate at his coming ~these evil generation of serpents will take over the temple of God (professing churches throughout this world) to a degree that God's very elect are not welcome, and will cause them to flee from them and warns others to do likewise.

The last days of the Gentiles churches will duplicate Israel's' last days when they were taken captive by the Babylonians.

I left the professing churches back in the late seventies, and went back a few years later only to leave for good a few years ago, never to return! The churches are full of rich false prophets, not a little rich, but super rich and they did not get that way preaching the gospel of election of grace.......salvation is totally of God apart from the will of man, etc.

I could cut Joel Osteen's church in half in one service if they allow me to preach Romans 9 the first Sunday there; and the next Sunday I could cut it in half again if I could preach on 2nd Thess 2 and expose men like him, Jimmy Swaggart, Kenneth Copeland and a host of others......that is, if I get out alive.

Agreed. That is what I have witnessed for the past decades - the apostasy of the church. The false prophets and christs like Joel Osteen, Jimmy Swggart, Kenneth Copeland, Joesph Prince, Joyce Meyers, and millions more all over the Earth are seen by God as spiritually "Frogs", "horsemen", "locusts", "scripons" in the book of Revelation.

 

[TribulationSigns]

watch for my post on 2nd Thess 2, later in the day and then add your comments if you desire.

Looking forward to your study on 2nd Thess 2. I may add that not many people here understand the mystery of iniquity as we read in:

2Th 2:7-8
(7) For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
(8) And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

Specifically, or simply put, it is "iniquity that is secret, hidden, or concealed." Just as the iniquity of those who are deluded is sin that they are unaware of--because they are deceived. Often deceiving themselves. I have found when studying Scripture, the words themselves, in context, usually give the definition when we allow the Bible to be its own authority, its own interpreter, and its own dictionary. 2nd Thessalonians 2 is the only place in the Bible the term is mentioned, and the context is the Lord's Holy Temple (here, a synonym for the church). Here, instead of being ruled by the man of God, it is ruled by the man of sin or lawlessness. The reason is because its members would not receive the truth in love, but had pleasure in unrighteousness. For example, they didn't love God and so didn't "really" want to hear the truth. They loved the world more than Christ while pretending to be Christians. Therefore, God "gives them up" and allows them just what they want. The word of the man who is lawless ruling over them instead of the WORD of God. The people are greatly deceived by the sinful man in God's house ruling them--deceived meaning, they don't know they are committing iniquity. q.e.d., it's is the mystery or secret iniquity in the Lord's building.

2Th 2:3
(3) Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

The context is an apostasy in the church, with the mystery of iniquity being revealed in duped Christians. People in the church who "think" they are serving God but unbeknownst to them are secretly serving the Devil.

Look at it this way. We know what the word mystery means--it's something secret, covert, unknown. In the Biblical context, it is "a religious truth that man can know only by the grace of divine revelation alone." And we also know that the word iniquity means, "that which is lawless, sinful, or a transgression." Put them together and you have your answer.

Transgressions or iniquity that is unknown or a mystery.

It is people of the church being deceived to "think" that their sin or iniquity is not really sin. That's the mystery that escapes them. Look at the example of Revelation 17:7 where God says "I will tell thee the mystery of the woman." In other words, what she represented was a secret to him. But now here in Revelation, God is going to reveal to him (those who can receive Spiritual Truths) the knowledge of who this symbolic woman is--and when we have the Spirit of truth to receive God's word as its own authority, its own interpreter, and its own dictionary, we see she is the unfaithful church, the very churches that we have depart out so far. It is because the church with the outward appearance of royalty and kingship, but inside we see what she is offering in her cup is the filth of her INIQUITY. For example, iniquity hidden and disguised by a golden cup. This is hidden iniquity standing in the place where it ought not. This is the abomination of Desolation, the Lord talked about in Matthew 24:15, selah! This is where we, Elect, are allowed at an appointed time to see what really inside her and depart out of the woman (church)

Rev 17:4
(4) And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication:


She "appears" to be precious as she is decked in gold, royal apparel, and with a golden cup, but it is revealed that she is deceptive because hidden in that cup is the filth of her iniquity. In other words, her true nature and motives are clandestine / secret / a mystery, hidden by her outward appearance. ...just like the heart of man. Selah.

Therefore, this lawlessness we read in God's word was already at work in the church at the time that the Apostle Paul was penning this chapter to the Thessalonians, and it is at work now. It has been restrained [katecho] in God's house so that God could first build His church during the millennial reign, but near the second coming, He who restrained it would be taken out of the midst (2 Thessalonians 2:7) of the church and this wickedness would be "revealed" to the ELECT! Christ told us in other Scriptures that a time would come when, because iniquity would abound, the love of many shall wax cold. In other words, an apostasy or falling away within the church where false Christs and Prophets abound and deceive many within the church.

Mat 24:24-25
(24) For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
(25) Behold, I have told you before.

The question is, "HOW" would they deceive even the elect (if that were possible)? And the answer is, by the mystery or secret/hidden transgressions that they would support. By concealed God-lessness, clandestine lawlessness, the covert wickedness that is sin masquerading as righteousness. That is the mysterious or secret iniquity that will plague the church. People professing that they are Christians, but as Christ told us before, the revelation of their iniquity and their true disdain for truth is in their works that betray their true nature.

Tit 1:16
(16) They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.

Transgressors are often working under the cover of calling themselves Christian and claiming they have knowledge of God.

But in reality, they are secretly lawless men (or a man of sin) because they are only pretending or masquerading as lawful or righteous servants of God. Yes, they may have the blessing and agreement of Pastors and teachers or even the entire church, but God is not fooled or mocked by a mere profession of belief or faith. In fact, the mystery is often only to the pretenders themselves, because iniquity is [ apokolips] or revealed/uncovered to God's elect. The rest will have to answer for their iniquity on that great day.

Mat 7:22-23
(22) Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
(23) And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

They deceived where they "thought" that they were being righteous, but in truth, they were seduced and were (according to Christ) "workers of iniquity." Their prophecy won't save them, nor their works, Christ reveals the secret to them that they are workers of this iniquity.

The whole point is, this iniquity was a mystery or secret to them. Unless iniquity is revealed by Christ, it is a mystery to the church. It is kept from them "because" they come under strong delusion wherein they rationalize away their transgressions, twist God's word of truth, and trust in their church's teachings and traditions rather than God's own words. They are wolves, but the mystery is that they appear in sheep's clothing in order to deceive. They "appear" to be sheep, but their works betray them to the election.

 

[covenantee]

This is the abomination of Desolation, the Lord talked about in Matthew 24:15, selah!

You've been repeatedly telling us that you believe that Scripture interprets Scripture. I agree.

So Luke 21:20 interprets Matthew 24:15 to identify the abomination of desolation.

It was the Roman armies.

So let Scripture interpret Scripture.

 

[rwb]

Amen. That was what I was going to tell @rwb. Christ was not asking us to look for "LIFE" on fig tree AND all those trees. Just like today, if we go out and notice the budding of the trees in the spring time, we will "mentally know" that summer is near. So, "LIKEWISE", when we start to see things Christ prophesied concerning His Church RIGHT PRIOR to the Second Coming (not 70AD) , we will "mentally know" that CHrist's coming is near. No need for date-setting.

Nothing to do with 70AD because the Olivet Discourse was not prophesied about the first century BECAUSE the Old Testament congregation has already fallen at the Cross and in three days, the New Testament Congregation was born and commissioned on Pentecost to go forth to the rest of the world with Gospel Message.

Except Christ was not saying when you see fig trees in the springtime beginning to show signs of life then you will know the return of Christ is near, even at the doors, in the same way you know that summer has come. When speaking of the signs that all shall see when Christ shall come again He said, "the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of heaven shall be shaken: then shall the sign of the Son of man appear in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory." Finally He says of that day of Christ coming:

Matthew 24:31 (KJV) And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Then Christ returns to telling His disciples of all that shall come to pass before the day of Christ's coming that will be preceded with signs from heaven. Before that day known by the signs from heaven comes, Christ's disciples are told to look for life again on the fig tree (remnant of Israel) and all the trees (Gentile believers) as the Gospel of the Kingdom of God is being preached unto all the nations of the world. It is the Gospel of the Kingdom of God that must be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations that man is given to understand that Christ came in His Kingdom, and it is not a physical Kingdom that can be visibly seen, nor is it of this world, for His Kingdom is WITHIN you. The disciples of Christ MUST understand the Kingdom of God we preach is NOT a physical Kingdom, but a spiritual Kingdom that shall be completed as new life is seen on the trees, beginning with the fig tree (Israel in unbelief).

Matthew 24:32-34 (KJV) Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh: So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors. Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

Mark 13:28-30 (KJV) Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When her branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is near: So ye in like manner, when ye shall see these things come to pass, know that it is nigh, even at the doors. Verily I say unto you, that this generation shall not pass, till all these things be done.

Luke 21:29-31 (KJV) And he spake to them a parable; Behold the fig tree, and all the trees; When they now shoot forth, ye see and know of your own selves that summer is now nigh at hand. So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand.

Matthew 24:14 (KJV) And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

Christ, speaking to His disciples calls THEM, and all His disciples after them "this generation" that shall not pass, till all these things be done.

The rest of your comments make no sense whatsoever!

 

[TribulationSigns]

Except Christ was not saying when you see fig trees in the springtime beginning to show signs of life then you will know the return of Christ is near, even at the doors, in the same way you know that summer has come.

Yes, Christ did. But you are confused with your own private interpretation with "signs of life." We are not called to look for signs of life of something.

When speaking of the signs that all shall see when Christ shall come again He said, "the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of heaven shall be shaken: then shall the sign of the Son of man appear in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory." Finally He says of that day of Christ coming:

Matthew 24:31 (KJV) And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Incorrect. Matthew 24:31 will take place on the LAST DAY when Christ returns and all Elect will be raptured out to meet with the Lord in the Air. That will be when the generation of evil ENDS.

Then Christ returns to telling His disciples of all that shall come to pass before the day of Christ's coming that will be preceded with signs from heaven. Before that day known by the signs from heaven comes, Christ's disciples are told to look for life again on the fig tree (remnant of Israel) and all the trees (Gentile believers) as the Gospel of the Kingdom of God is being preached unto all the nations of the world.

Here you go with "look for life again" This is not what Christ talked about at all! The fig tee has nothing to do with the preaching of the Kingdom.

It is the Gospel of the Kingdom of God that must be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations that man is given to understand that Christ came in His Kingdom, and it is not a physical Kingdom that can be visibly seen, nor is it of this world, for His Kingdom is WITHIN you. The disciples of Christ MUST understand the Kingdom of God we preach is NOT a physical Kingdom, but a spiritual Kingdom that shall be completed as new life is seen on the trees, beginning with the fig tree (Israel in unbelief).

A spiritual kingdom will be completed as "new life" on the trees?! Sorry you really misunderstood what Christ talked about.

Matthew 24:32-34 (KJV) Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh: So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors. Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

Mark 13:28-30 (KJV) Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When her branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is near: So ye in like manner, when ye shall see these things come to pass, know that it is nigh, even at the doors. Verily I say unto you, that this generation shall not pass, till all these things be done.

Luke 21:29-31 (KJV) And he spake to them a parable; Behold the fig tree, and all the trees; When they now shoot forth, ye see and know of your own selves that summer is now nigh at hand. So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand.

Matthew 24:14 (KJV) And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

Christ, speaking to His disciples calls THEM, and all His disciples after them "this generation" that shall not pass, till all these things be done.

False. You are reading into verses. The generation has nothing to do wth disciples or 1st century. Again, it is the generation of evil that spans time from Cain to the Second Coming. The generation of evil will end until ALL THINGS are fulfilled. It did not occur in 70AD or the lifetime of the disciples.

The rest of your comments make no sense whatsoever!

I would say the doctrine of Preterism makes no sense whatsoever. In other words, it is an actual false doctrine.

 

[Davy]

Christ, speaking to His disciples calls THEM, and all His disciples after them "this generation" that shall not pass, till all these things be done.

The rest of your comments make no sense whatsoever!

You are not actually staying with the Scripture as written. The phrases below in 'red' determine which 'generation' Jesus was pointing to...

Matt 24:32-35
32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:

33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.

34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but My words shall not pass away.
KJV

"all these things" = the SIGNS of the end leading up to His future return. Those SIGNS did not begin in His Apostle's generation. Those SIGNS or "all these things" are seen by the generation that will actually experience Jesus' future return, i.e., the LAST GENERATION OF THIS PRESENT WORLD.

And Jesus even affirms that FINAL GENERATION on earth will not pass until ALL those SIGNS of the END He gave there happen, and that FINAL GENERATION on earth 'sees' all those things (SIGNS).

Those SIGNS, or "all these things", are the Seals of Revelation 6, which are ONLY for the FINAL GENERATION of this world. Christ's Olivet discourse and Rev.6 are parallels.

 

[Zao is life]

Matthew 24:34,35~"This generation" by D.W. "Red" Baker​

Matthew 24:34,35~"This generation"

"Verily I say unto you, this generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled. Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words will shall pass away."

Without question, this is a very critical and important scripture to understand, in order to leave this discourse with its true meaning. One may have some truth within this portion of God's word, even if he err concerning "this generation", but only in part, and maybe very little. But, if one can come to the knowledge of the truth of how the Lord Jesus was using "this generation" then he will will have a overall knowledge of not only Matthew 24, but he will also have a solid understanding of Daniel's little horn/abomination of desolation; Paul's man of sin~2nd Thess. 2; John's antichrist~1st John 2:18, and the beast of Revelation~for they are ALL are speaking of the very same thing, which should not surprise us in the least, but should encourage us that we are indeed in perfect agreement with Daniel, Jesus, Paul and John, and with one voice are proclaiming God's truths that he has hidden within the scriptures of truth~Daniel 10:21.

This has been one of the most heated discussed scriptures in all of the word of God, concerning eschatology, for the Historic and Preterits doctrine stands or fall base upon the meaning of this one scripture~Matthew 24:34 If they can prove that this generation has reference to its common use and that the things spoken of in Matthew 24 were somehow fulfilled before those people died off, then their doctrine stands, and everyone else must repent and change their overall beliefs, or be in error. To the child of God, it matters very little which side is right or wrong, but what does the scriptures teach, that's all important to them, at least it should be, God forbid that it would be otherwise. But, this I do know, some of the men that I have debated in the past have so much out on the Internet, that for them to recant their position, would take so much humility that I am not sure some are willing to do that, specially one person that I debated. He would only debate me privately, without his church knowing about it, so they would not see the holes in his position, he did not say that, but I knew why he wanted to keep it private. I have over sixty pages of just my words to him concerning this one scriptures, which he finally refuse to respond back.

Bible believers know that God's word will render the biblical sense of the words that are recorded therein. God's word is its own dictionary, first and foremost. Of course we use books like~American Dictionary of the English language by Noah Webster 1828." To help us to know the primary meaning of the words we read and use, that's a given. That being said, it is obvious to any enlighten, sincere, and honest person, that biblical truth comes not from Noah Webster's dictionary, but from the Holy Ghost, by comparing scriptures with scripture. We search the scriptures and allow them to give us their true biblical sense. John 5:39; 1 Cor, 2:13

Isaiah 28:9,10

"Whom shall we teach knowledge? and whom shall we make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from milk, and drawn from the beast. For precept must be upon percent; line upon line line upon line; here a little, and there a little:"

This is the way that God said that it must be done. Truth is hidden within the scriptures, with words that lend themselves to error, if one that is reading them refuses to follow scriptural hermeneutical rules given by the Spirit of God. If man person comes to the scriptures with a humble, and godly spirit trusting only them to render to them its truth~then that person will not be disappointed. God's ways are just and equal; our at their very best are sinful in his sight, apart from the blood of Jesus Christ.

Now~Let us spend some time with Matthew 24:34...

To be continue~RB

Those who assign Matthew 24 to the 1st century have to hold onto that fallacy. Yet there is no difference in meaning between the English words "this generation", "that generation", "the generation/s", "ancient generations" etc, and the Greek words that they are translated from.

To even suggest that every time Jesus said "this generation", He was talking about the 1st century generation (just because He often was), is a logical fallacy of note, though Preterists and Partial Preterists insist it is the case.

Hebrews 3:10 (talking about the generation in the wilderness during the days of Moses):

"Therefore I was grieved with the generation [o genea] and said, They always err in their heart, and they have not known My ways."

[Strongs Greek 1074] genea ghen-eh-ah'
from (a presumed derivative of) 1085; a generation; by implication, an age (the period or the persons):--age, generation, nation, time.

Colossians 1:26 ".. the mystery which has been hidden from ages and from the generations [o genea], but now has been revealed to His saints."

Ephesians 3:21 "To him be the glory in the church and in Christ Jesus to the generations [o genea], to the ages of the ages. Amen."

Ephesians 3:4-5 "by which, when you read, you may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ which in other generations [genea] was not made known to the sons of men, as it is now revealed to His holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit."

Acts 15:21 "For Moses from ancient generations [genea] has those in every city proclaiming him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day."

Acts 14:16 "who in past generations [genea] allowed all nations to walk in their own ways."

Acts 13:36 "For after he had served his own generation [genea] by the will of God, David fell asleep and was added to his fathers and saw corruption."

Luke 21:31-32 "So also, when you see these things happening, know that the kingdom of God is near. Truly I say to you, The same [houtos] the generation [o genea] shall not pass away until all these things are fulfilled."

[Strongs Greek 3778] houtos hoo'-tos, including nominative masculine plural houtoi hoo'-toy, nominative feminine singular haute how'-tay, and nominative feminine plural hautai how'-tahee from the article 3588 and 846:​

The, he (or she or it), i.e. this or that (often with article repeated):--he (it was that), hereof, it, she, such as, the same, these, they, this (man, same, woman), which, who.

i.e "this generation" is the generation that is the same as the generation that is being spoken about in whichever verses the words houtos o genea (the same the generation) appear. The context of the surrounding passage decides what time or period in history it's referring to:

Luke 17:25 "But first He must suffer many things and be rejected of this [houtos] the generation [o genea].

(i.e the generation that is the same as the generation being spoken about in the verse).

There are indeed many verses in the gospels talking about "this the generation" that were alive in the 1st century, for example:

Luke 11:31 "The queen of the south shall rise up in the Judgment with the men of this [houtos] the generation [o genea] and condemn them. For she came from the ends of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon. And behold, One greater than Solomon is here."

But there is no difference in meaning between the English words "this generation", "that generation", "the generation/s", "ancient generations" etc, and the Greek words that they are translated from,

and Luke 21:25-33 and Matthew 24:29-34 are both talking about the same generation:

Luke 21
25 "And there will be signs in the sun and moon and stars, and on the earth nations will be in distress, anxious over the roaring of the sea and the surging waves.

27 Then they will see the Son of Man arriving in a cloud with power and great glory.
28 But when these things begin to happen, stand up and raise your heads, because your redemption is drawing near."

Luke 21:31-32 "So also, when you see these things happening, know that the kingdom of God is near. Truly I say to you, The same [houtos] the generation [o genea] shall not pass away until all these things are fulfilled.

Matthew 24
29 "Immediately after the suffering of those days, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of heaven will be shaken.

31 And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet blast, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

33-34 So also you, when you see all these things, know that he is near, right at the door. I tell you the truth, the same [houtos] the generation [o genea] will not pass away until all these things take place.
​

Insisting that the above passages refer to what happened in 70 A.D is already without merit, but trying to use the words "this generation" in Matthew 24 as support for such a notion, is ridiculous. Yet Pretersist and Partial Preterists always do.

 

[Red Baker]

You've been repeatedly telling us that you believe that Scripture interprets Scripture. I agree.

So Luke 21:20 interprets Matthew 24:15 to identify the abomination of desolation.

It was the Roman armies.

So let Scripture interpret Scripture.

He does believe the testimony of God, you have been deceived by men jsut repeating each other through the bible written by Josephus called the Wars of the Jews.

Let me ask you a question~were you there in 70 A.D.? Neither was any of us, we take what history said with a grain of salt, even if we take it at all. I could only imaged what history will record about our days~with the wicked media putting out all their lies daily.

Even if history is 50% correct, who care when it comes to teaching bible truths? I certainly do not~truth is hidden within the scriptures not outside of them! I agree totally with this statement:

I have found when studying Scripture, the words themselves, in context, usually give the definition when we allow the Bible to be its own authority, its own interpreter, and its own dictionary.

So true!

 

[Red Baker]

Then Christ returns to telling His disciples of all that shall come to pass before the day of Christ's coming that will be preceded with signs from heaven. Before that day known by the signs from heaven comes, Christ's disciples are told to look for life again on the fig tree (remnant of Israel) and all the trees (Gentile believers) as the Gospel of the Kingdom of God is being preached unto all the nations of the world. It is the Gospel of the Kingdom of God that must be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations that man is given to understand that Christ came in His Kingdom, and it is not a physical Kingdom that can be visibly seen, nor is it of this world, for His Kingdom is WITHIN you. The disciples of Christ MUST understand the Kingdom of God we preach is NOT a physical Kingdom, but a spiritual Kingdom that shall be completed as new life is seen on the trees, beginning with the fig tree (Israel in unbelief).

Greetings rwb~Briefly, let me add a coupe of sentences. I was going to do this yesterday, but let it slip.

What I highlighted in your quote I want to make a comment on.

You are adding to the word of God, maybe not on purpose, I do not know your heart, but can read what you have posted. Jesus never told them to look for LIFE on fig tree, for a sign of his coming, which you interpreted as Israel ~ And others trees, which you again interpreted as Gentiles with no scripture supporting that statement, only a biased opinion, you have come to accepted as truth.

The nation of Israel in the middle east, is not part of latter day bible prophecy as having anything to do with Christ's second coming, not one thing, period~ That's a Jewish fable that must be rejected as pure hersey.

The New Testament church is made up of Jews and Gentiles, but no promises to Israel apart from being part of the NT church and being in Christ, before his second coming.

Jesus did say concerning the parable of the fig tree~when his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh: "So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors." All these things that are recorded in Matthew 24:5-30!

Jesus mentioned all trees in Luke's gospel for the very reason he knew folks could and would take the fig tree and applied it to the nation of Israel, because of such scriptures as Hosea 9:10; Jeremiah 24, etc., though not directly applied as folks desire to applied the fig tree to the nation of Israel, though it could be twisted and force to apply, because false prophets are good at doing so.

Your application to the fig tree and all trees, is not supported by the context in which they are found.

 

[rwb]

Yes, Christ did. But you are confused with your own private interpretation with "signs of life." We are not called to look for signs of life of something.

No, I am not confused! It is in trying to force a futurist understanding to the words of Christ that has you confused. It's nonsense to believe the words of Christ were not for the very ones He was personally acquainted with and speaking directly to. Yes, these early disciples were indeed told to look for life beginning to come to Israel (fig tree) once again, that they might know and understand the spiritual Kingdom of God.

Incorrect. Matthew 24:31 will take place on the LAST DAY when Christ returns and all Elect will be raptured out to meet with the Lord in the Air. That will be when the generation of evil ENDS.

Yes, this is true. That will be when the spiritual body of believers is complete through the last Gentile coming in. Then the seventh trumpet will begin to sound the time for building the spiritual Kingdom of God through the Gospel proclaimed unto all the world in the power of the Holy Spirit shall be no longer. Before all evil comes to a final end, Satan will have his little season.. That won't be a time for building, but a time for Satan to gather together Gog & Magog then the fire of God's wrath shall come down to devour all who were not caught up first to meet the Lord in the air.

Here you go with "look for life again" This is not what Christ talked about at all! The fig tee has nothing to do with the preaching of the Kingdom.

The fig tree symbolizes Israel in unbelief, yet you say spiritual life coming to them has nothing to do with the Gospel of the Kingdom of God??? Life seen again in the fig tree was a remarkable thing, because Christ had come to the fig tree seeking life, but found none, so He cursed the fig tree and said no more life would grow again forever. In fact, Christ told them "Your house is left unto you desolate." His disciples heard the curse, so seeing life again according to grace through faith, the remnant of Israel upon hearing the Gospel of the Kingdom of God were saved. With the Gentiles that would also be saved with them "all Israel" (Israel of God) shall be complete. Yet, you argue Christ has no interest in the remnant of Israel according to election of grace???

A spiritual kingdom will be completed as "new life" on the trees?! Sorry you really misunderstood what Christ talked about.

No, the spiritual Kingdom of God will be complete with new life that began with the "fig tree" because the fig tree symbolizes the remnant according to election of grace (Ro 11:5). Then as the Gospel of the Kingdom of God goes out to Gentile nations throughout the world, the spiritual Kingdom of God will be completed when the last Gentile to be saved is grafted into the Kingdom of God with the remnant of Israel saved by grace.

False. You are reading into verses. The generation has nothing to do wth disciples or 1st century. Again, it is the generation of evil that spans time from Cain to the Second Coming. The generation of evil will end until ALL THINGS are fulfilled. It did not occur in 70AD or the lifetime of the disciples.

If "this generation" is not inclusive of first century disciples Christ would not have told them "When ye shall see all these things."

Matthew 24:33 (KJV) So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.

Yet when speaking of the day when Christ shall come again, Christ says, "they shall see the Son of man coming..." Christ knows these first century disciples won't still be alive to visibly see Christ coming again, but they would know when spiritual life began to come to Israel in unbelief, who were first to hear the Gospel of the Kingdom of God preached to them.

Matthew 24:30 (KJV) And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

I would say the doctrine of Preterism makes no sense whatsoever. In other words, it is an actual false doctrine.

Yes, I agree! Preterism is not biblical doctrine, but then neither is your futurist doctrine biblical. For this reason I neither give support to Preterism nor futurist doctrine.

 

[rwb]

You are adding to the word of God, maybe not on purpose, I do not know your heart, but can read what you have posted. Jesus never told them to look for LIFE on fig tree, for a sign of his coming, which you interpreted as Israel ~ And others trees, which you again interpreted as Gentiles with no scripture supporting that statement, only a biased opinion, you have come to accepted as truth.

I agree! Christ did not tell the first century disciples to look for life in the fig tree as a sign of His coming! He told them that seeing life again where it was not seen before as proof the spiritual Kingdom of God has come with power and will save even the remnant of Jews according to election of grace. The first century Jewish believers are the first to come into the spiritual Kingdom of God as the Gospel was preached first to the Jews then to the Gentiles.

It is you who is reading the sign of the fig tree as a sign of Christ coming again, not I.

The nation of Israel in the middle east, is not part of latter day bible prophecy as having anything to do with Christ's second coming, not one thing, period~ That's a Jewish fable that must be rejected as pure hersey.

I've never said the first century Jewish disciples would still be alive to see the coming of Christ on the last day of this age. But they most assuredly were alive during the first century when Christ spoke these words to them. Telling them they would see (understand/know/have knowledge of) the fig tree (elect Jews) coming into the spiritual Kingdom of God through hearing the Gospel preached to them in the power of the Holy Spirit. We see undeniable proof of this truth at Pentecost, "there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven," "Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words:" After hearing the Gospel of the Kingdom of God preached to them and three thousand of them were saved.

Acts 2:37-41 (KJV) Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do? Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call. And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation. Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.

Jesus did say concerning the parable of the fig tree~when his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh: "So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors." All these things that are recorded in Matthew 24:5-30!

What of that which Christ warns them of coming had they not heard of seen and experienced? The only thing to come for them during these last days is the second coming of Christ that Christ said would not come before the Gospel of the Kingdom of God has been preached unto all the world as a witness to all nations. During their lives they would only see the Gospel of the Kingdom of God began to be sent out unto all nations of the world, and would not be alive to see Christ coming again in the clouds.

Jesus mentioned all trees in Luke's gospel for the very reason he knew folks could and would take the fig tree and applied it to the nation of Israel, because of such scriptures as Hosea 9:10; Jeremiah 24, etc., though not directly applied as folks desire to applied the fig tree to the nation of Israel, though it could be twisted and force to apply, because false prophets are good at doing so.

Yes, and also recorded in the words of Luke, when they see new life on the fig tree first and then all trees "Ye know that the Kingdom of God is nigh at hand." Christ does NOT say then they would know the second coming of Christ is nigh at hand.

Luke 21:31 (KJV) So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand.

It is not uncommon for fig tree to be used to symbolize Israel.

Hosea 9:10 (KJV) I found Israel like grapes in the wilderness; I saw your fathers as the firstripe in the fig tree at her first time: but they went to Baal-peor, and separated themselves unto that shame; and their abominations were according as they loved.

Nor is it uncommon to use all the trees to symbolize all men.

Mark 8:24 (KJV) And he looked up, and said, I see men as trees, walking.

Matthew 13:31-32 (KJV) Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is like to a grain of mustard seed, which a man took, and sowed in his field: Which indeed is the least of all seeds: but when it is grown, it is the greatest among herbs, and becometh a tree, so that the birds of the air come and lodge in the branches thereof.

 

[rwb]

Those who assign Matthew 24 to the 1st century have to hold onto that fallacy. Yet there is no difference in meaning between the English words "this generation", "that generation", "the generation/s", "ancient generations" etc, and the Greek words that they are translated from.

I agree! "This generation" should not be exclusively assigned to first century Jewish disciples of Christ. But why do futurists feel the need to exclude them from "this generation"? It's funny really, how futurists go to great lengths trying to prove "this generation" is the evil and adulterous generation throughout all time. But then deny "this generation" to be inclusive of first century Jewish disciples as well as disciples of every generation to follow??? IOW "chosen generation" that shall not pass until all these things are fulfilled. There will be disciples of Christ to the end of days, when Christ shall come again. It is through much tribulation that one enters into the Kingdom of God.

 

[covenantee]

He does believe the testimony of God, you have been deceived by men jsut repeating each other through the bible written by Josephus called the Wars of the Jews.

Josephus didn't write the books of Matthew and Luke.

You'll have to try again.

 

[grafted branch]

Even if history is 50% correct, who care when it comes to teaching bible truths? I certainly do not~truth is hidden within the scriptures not outside of them! I agree totally with this statement:
So true!

It’s easy to simply say scripture shouldn’t be interpreted with the writings of someone like Josephus but that type of argument is flawed, you yourself have to use the words and actions of unbelievers to determine when scripture is being fulfilled; as I stated earlier, all of us, from the full preterist to the full futurist have to look at the words and actions of unbelievers to determine whether somethings have been fulfilled or not.

Meaning this, when it comes to the scriptures being fulfilled the scriptures themselves don’t give us the exact date, we have to observe our surroundings and compare our observations of the secular world to the scriptures, this includes things that happened in the past, history.

You don’t care about history but can you at least give an answer to this question, how can you know the day is approaching if you don’t look at secular events and compare them to the truths in the scriptures?

 

[Red Baker]

You don’t care about history but can you at least give an answer to this question, how can you know the day is approaching if you don’t look at secular events and compare them to the truths in the scriptures?

I read the scriptures, and hear what they are saying, and if I see what they are saying coming to pass, then I know and believe much like John the apostle saw the linen clothes and the napkin that was about his head, not lying with the lines clothes, but by itself.....

John 20:6-8~"Then cometh Simon Peter following him, and went into the sepulchre, and seeth the linen clothes lie, And the napkin, that was about his head, not lying with the linen clothes, but wrapped together in a place by itself. Then went in also that other disciple, which came first to the sepulchre, and he saw, and believed."

Bottom line, we live by every word of God, period.

 

[Red Baker]

He told them that seeing life again where it was not seen before as proof the spiritual Kingdom of God has come with power and will save even the remnant of Jews according to election of grace.

Sir, you are adding your own personal biased opinion to this teaching of Jesus.

There is not a word that even hint to~

He told them that seeing life again where it was not seen before as proof the spiritual Kingdom of God has come with power

Several errors here. Listen again to what the Lord said:

Matthew 24:32,33~"Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh: So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors."

We know the nearness of summer by the fact one sees the budding of the fig trees, or any tree as far as that goes...likewise..... means in like manner...when a child of God see all things which were mentioned in Matthew 14:5-25~then we are to know that our Lord's promise coming is near, even at the doors.

Now you can twist, prevert, or just down right reject the simply meaning of our Lord's words, yet you do so at your own risk of hearing him condemned such people of twisting and preverting his words, he will not take that very lightly in that day.

will save even the remnant of Jews according to election of grace.

Well, I firmly believe in the doctrine of election of grace, but nowhere is this even hinted at in Matthew 24: or anywhere as far as that goes, even though all who are saved from sin and condemnation are part of the election of grace, but you are misusing that doctrine here.

The first century Jewish believers are the first to come into the spiritual Kingdom of God as the Gospel was preached first to the Jews then to the Gentiles.

Okay, that's true, but what does not have to do with what we are debating on from Matthew 24:32,33? Nothing.

It is you who is reading the sign of the fig tree as a sign of Christ coming again, not I.

Wrong, I'm using these things that are recorded in Matthew 24:5-25, let that be established, please, do not put a spin on what I'm saying.

I've never said the first century Jewish disciples would still be alive to see the coming of Christ on the last day of this age.

I never said you did.

Telling them they would see (understand/know/have knowledge of) the fig tree (elect Jews) coming into the spiritual Kingdom of God through hearing the Gospel preached to them in the power of the Holy Spirit.

Please give scriptures where Jesus told them what you are saying. It is not nowhere in Jesus' teaching, nowhere. You want to believe so bad that the fig tree represents elect Israel, but you can never prove that with the word of God, never. What they are is the natural Olive tree, etc. one of the two witnesses of Revelation 11, etc. more on this later, maybe.

We see undeniable proof of this truth at Pentecost, "there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven," "Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words:" After hearing the Gospel of the Kingdom of God preached to them and three thousand of them were saved.

Acts 2:37-41 (KJV) Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do? Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call. And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation. Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.

This is true, but your argument on connecting this with Matthew 24:32,33 is a logical fallacy attempt that does not fit into Matthew 24.

What of that which Christ warns them of coming had they not heard of seen and experienced?

Well, hello...these things spoken by Christ can only be applied to days leading up to his second coming, these things prove that his coming was at hand, certainly could not had been applicable to his days to the extent that it will be in the last days.

Enough said for now. May the Lord give us all eyes to see and a heart to understand...RB

 

[rwb]

Sir, you are adding your own personal biased opinion to this teaching of Jesus.

There is not a word that even hint to~


Several errors here. Listen again to what the Lord said:

We know the nearness of summer by the fact one sees the budding of the fig trees, or any tree as far as that goes...likewise..... means in like manner...when a child of God see all things which were mentioned in Matthew 14:5-25~then we are to know that our Lord's promise coming is near, even at the doors.

Now you can twist, prevert, or just down right reject the simply meaning of our Lord's words, yet you do so at your own risk of hearing him condemned such people of twisting and preverting his words, he will not take that very lightly in that day.


Well, I firmly believe in the doctrine of election of grace, but nowhere is this even hinted at in Matthew 24: or anywhere as far as that goes, even though all who are saved from sin and condemnation are part of the election of grace, but you are misusing that doctrine here.


Okay, that's true, but what does not have to do with what we are debating on from Matthew 24:32,33? Nothing.

Wrong, I'm using these things that are recorded in Matthew 24:5-25, let that be established, please, do not put a spin on what I'm saying.

I never said you did.

Please give scriptures where Jesus told them what you are saying. It is not nowhere in Jesus' teaching, nowhere. You want to believe so bad that the fig tree represents elect Israel, but you can never prove that with the word of God, never. What they are is the natural Olive tree, etc. one of the two witnesses of Revelation 11, etc. more on this later, maybe.

This is true, but your argument on connecting this with Matthew 24:32,33 is a logical fallacy attempt that does not fit into Matthew 24.

Well, hello...these things spoken by Christ can only be applied to days leading up to his second coming, these things prove that his coming was at hand, certainly could not had been applicable to his days to the extent that it will be in the last days.

Enough said for now. May the Lord give us all eyes to see and a heart to understand...RB

Enough said period! I have said what I believe you futurists deny from Scripture. This is not the first time I've danced this dance with futurists who think they have greater understanding of spiritual truths, then anyone else. So, they (futurists) reject the FACT that Christ spoke these things first to His Jewish disciples before going to the cross. And as in the past these discussions with futurists become an exercise in futility, you refuse to see the forest for the 'trees' (pun intended)! You are so blinded by your own understanding that you will not believe that Christ really, truly, actually did speak to His disciples according to the flesh who lived and died in the first century about things that they too would experience as the Gospel of the Kingdom of God is preached unto all the nations of the world.

 

[Red Baker]

Enough said period! I have said what I believe you futurists deny from Scripture. This is not the first time I've danced this dance with futurists who think they have greater understanding of spiritual truths, then anyone else. So, they (futurists) reject the FACT that Christ spoke these things first to His Jewish disciples before going to the cross. And as in the past these discussions with futurists become an exercise in futility, you refuse to see the forest for the 'trees' (pun intended)! You are so blinded by your own understanding that you will not believe that Christ really, truly, actually did speak to His disciples according to the flesh who lived and died in the first century about things that they too would experience as the Gospel of the Kingdom of God is preached unto all the nations of the world.

Sir, I have never said that I did not believe that Christ spoke to his disciples about what they would experience, because they did, yet, only a lesser degree than what will occur in the latter days during a tribulation that would be greater for the church (God's called out ones) than ever has been since the beginning of time, so much more to cause them to flee the professing churches in this world.

The beast will make war with the saints and overcome them during this great tribulation period. Read Revelation 13 for a starter.

This is not the first time I've danced this dance

I can say the same.

who think they have greater understanding of spiritual truths, then anyone else

I do not believe this to be so with me~I'm still learning, searching and trusting God for more light. You would be wise to do the same.

you refuse to see the forest for the 'trees'

Sir, how do you know that this is not so with you?