The end of the world, as taught by Christ, separates the wicked from the just at the harvest, and it is coming for you.

[Spiritual Israelite]

They got in just as Matthew 23:13 says …

Matthew 23:13 But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.

That isn't what it says. The only way that anyone has ever been saved and entered the kingdom of God/heaven is by faith and they did not have faith.

The tares were sown into His field which could only have taken place under the old covenant. Under the new covenant it’s only by water and spirit.

What are you talking about? How do you think someone was saved in old covenant times and how in new covenant times?

John 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do …

Also in Matthew 13:37 the word “sowing” <4687> is a present tense verb, so we know the Son of man was sowing when He spoke those words, during the old covenant age.

What is your point here?

 

[grafted branch]

What are you talking about? How do you think someone was saved in old covenant times and how in new covenant times?

I’m not arguing that the tares were saved, only that they were in the kingdom prior to them being purged out by the angels.

What is your point here?

The point is the same old covenant field was sown by Jesus and Satan.
You have Satan in the bottomless pit during the new covenant so how do you suppose he would personally be able to sow in the field when the field is the world per Matthew 13:38? He can’t be both in the pit and in the world.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I’m not arguing that the tares were saved, only that they were in the kingdom prior to them being purged out by the angels.

They were not. Look at this...

Matthew 13:38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;

Can you see here how Jesus contrasted the children of the kingdom (good seed/wheat) with the children of the wicked one (tares). That means the tares were not in the kingdom. Very simple.

The point is the same old covenant field was sown by Jesus and Satan.

So?

You have Satan in the bottomless pit during the new covenant so how do you suppose he would personally be able to sow in the field when the field is the world per Matthew 13:38? He can’t be both in the pit and in the world.

Do apparently don't know how Amils understand the binding of Satan, which is very surprising. We do not see his binding in the sense of Him being completely incapacitated in a literal place like Premils do. We see His binding as being related to His inability to keep people in bondage to the fear of death without hope of anything after death like he was able to do in old covenant times because he held the power of death (Hebrews 2:14-15). But, by His death Jesus took the power of death away from Satan and has set many people free from the power of death by giving them the hope of eternal life.

 

[grafted branch]

They were not. Look at this...

Matthew 13:38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;

Can you see here how Jesus contrasted the children of the kingdom (good seed/wheat) with the children of the wicked one (tares). That means the tares were not in the kingdom. Very simple.

Matthew 13:38 but the tares are the children of the wicked one
John 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil
Matthew 23:13 But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men

Hello!

Matthew 13:41 and they shall gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity

What more corroboration do you need? The tares were in His kingdom, they got purged out.

Do apparently don't know how Amils understand the binding of Satan, which is very surprising. We do not see his binding in the sense of Him being completely incapacitated in a literal place like Premils do. We see His binding as being related to His inability to keep people in bondage to the fear of death without hope of anything after death like he was able to do in old covenant times because he held the power of death (Hebrews 2:14-15). But, by His death Jesus took the power of death away from Satan and has set many people free from the power of death by giving them the hope of eternal life.

So are you saying that Satan is currently in this world? Or maybe you think the world is the bottomless pit?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Matthew 13:38 but the tares are the children of the wicked one
John 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil
Matthew 23:13 But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men

Hello!

Matthew 13:41 and they shall gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity

What more corroboration do you need? The tares were in His kingdom, they got purged out.

You are making zero effort to see my point. What Matthew 13:41 means is the same thing that Matthew 13:49 says in this similar parable:

Matthew 13:47 “Once again, the kingdom of heaven is like a net that was let down into the lake and caught all kinds of fish. 48 When it was full, the fishermen pulled it up on the shore. Then they sat down and collected the good fish in baskets, but threw the bad away. 49 This is how it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come and separate the wicked from the righteous 50 and throw them into the blazing furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

What Matthew 13:41 is saying is that at the end of the age that angels will come and separate the wicked (children of the wicked one, tares) from the children of the kingdom (the righteous, wheat). The only way that anyone has ever been in the kingdom of God/heaven is by faith and the Pharisees did not have faith.

So are you saying that Satan is currently in this world? Or maybe you think the world is the bottomless pit?

So, you really don't have any idea how Amils understand the binding of Satan, do you? How is that possible? After all the years you have been part of these discussions, you have no understanding of Amil?

Here is something I said in relation to the binding of Satan in a different post (comments relating to Premil have been removed).

Satan being bound has nothing to do with completely incapacitating Satan, it has to do with Jesus destroying his works (1 John 3:8) and taking the power of death away from him (Hebrews 2:14-15) in order to make the way for the gospel of Christ to shine light to the world that was formerly almost completely in spiritual darkness because they had "no hope, and were without God in the world" (Ephesians 2:11-13).

I believe all of the following passages relate to Satan's binding and all of them talk about the impact that Jesus and the preaching of His gospel has had on the world for the past almost 2,000 years.

Matthew 12:28 But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you. 29 Or else how can one enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he first bind the strong man? and then he will spoil his house.

1 John 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

John 12:31 Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out. 32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me. 33 This he said, signifying what death he should die.

Luke 10:17 And the seventy returned again with joy, saying, Lord, even the devils are subject unto us through thy name. 18 And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.

Hebrews 2:14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; 15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.

Acts 26:14 And when we were all fallen to the earth, I heard a voice speaking unto me, and saying in the Hebrew tongue, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks. 15 And I said, Who art thou, Lord? And he said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest. 16 But rise, and stand upon thy feet: for I have appeared unto thee for this purpose, to make thee a minister and a witness both of these things which thou hast seen, and of those things in the which I will appear unto thee; 17 Delivering thee from the people, and from the Gentiles, unto whom now I send thee, 18 To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.

All of the above passages relate to the binding of Satan which has to do with Jesus coming to "destroy the works of the devil" by way of taking "the power of death" away from him which he formerly used to keep the world (especially the Gentiles) in spiritual darkness and in slavery to the fear of death (due to previously having no hope of eternal life). Before He came very few Gentiles in the world had been saved, but after that a multitude has been saved. That was made possible by way of Jesus binding Satan and restraining the power he once held over the world to make it possible for people to be delivered "from the power of Satan unto God".

The binding of Satan has nothing to do with making Satan completely powerless. It has to do with spoiling his house, destroying his works, taking the power of death away from him and keeping him from deceiving almost the entire world awhile keeping them in spiritual darkness as slaves to the fear of death as he was able to do in OT times.

 

[grafted branch]

So, you really don't have any idea how Amils understand the binding of Satan, do you? How is that possible? After all the years you have been part of these discussions, you have no understanding of Amil?

Ok, let me put it this way, Satan is bound in the bottomless pit during the millennium. Whatever that pit is, and I’m guessing it’s a spiritual place not a physical location, that is where Satan is during the millennium and Satan can’t go beyond the boundaries of the bottomless pit during the millennium.

Satan himself, not his minions, is currently sowing tares in the world, correct? If so then the world is within the boundaries of the bottomless pit, and His field is within the boundaries of the bottomless pit.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Ok, let me put it this way, Satan is bound in the bottomless pit during the millennium. Whatever that pit is, and I’m guessing it’s a spiritual place not a physical location, that is where Satan is during the millennium and Satan can’t go beyond the boundaries of the bottomless pit during the millennium.

You interpret it literally just like Premills do. Amills do not interpret it that way. I showed you how I interpret his binding. Not sure what else I can do.

Satan himself, not his minions, is currently sowing tares in the world, correct?

What do you mean "his minions"? His angels? Of course he has help to do what he does and doesn't just do it all himself.

If so then the world is within the boundaries of the bottomless pit, and His field is within the boundaries of the bottomless pit.

No idea what you're saying. I think it's pointless to continue the discussion because neither of us can understand what the other is saying.

 

[Davidpt]

Ok, let me put it this way, Satan is bound in the bottomless pit during the millennium. Whatever that pit is, and I’m guessing it’s a spiritual place not a physical location, that is where Satan is during the millennium and Satan can’t go beyond the boundaries of the bottomless pit during the millennium.

Satan himself, not his minions, is currently sowing tares in the world, correct? If so then the world is within the boundaries of the bottomless pit, and His field is within the boundaries of the bottomless pit.

A 'place' whether spiritual or literal, would have to be 'location', would it not? If you had said this instead---and I’m guessing it’s a spiritual condition--in this case a location of some kind wouldn't be applicable, since it doesn't imply a location while 'a place' does.

If meaning a condition, location and bounderies shouldn't matter. But they would matter if meaning location.

Something to keep in mind regardless what the pit is or isn't. satan, unlike God, can't be in multiple places at the same time. Therefore, if he is depicted as bound and shut up in a pit, he can not also be roaming around freely outside of the pit, as a roaring lion, seeking whom to devour. It doesn't matter if the pit is literal or not. If satan is depited locked up somewhere, it is then a contradiction for him to be roaming outside of where he depicted locked up in.

Consider these locusts in Revelation 9, for instance. They are in the same pit satan will be in. And while they are in the pit it's as if they don't even exist at the time. Their activities in the earth, thus outside of the pit, are zero when they are in the pit. Surely then, when satan is in the pit the same has to be true of him as well. Except we see plenty of proof of his activities throughout the earth when Amil has him in the pit. Therefore, he can't be in the pit yet.

 

[WPM]

A 'place' whether spiritual or literal, would have to be 'location', would it not? If you had said this instead---and I’m guessing it’s a spiritual condition--in this case a location of some kind wouldn't be applicable, since it doesn't imply a location while 'a place' does.

If meaning a condition, location and bounderies shouldn't matter. But they would matter if meaning location.

Something to keep in mind regardless what the pit is or isn't. satan, unlike God, can't be in multiple places at the same time. Therefore, if he is depicted as bound and shut up in a pit, he can not also be roaming around freely outside of the pit, as a roaring lion, seeking whom to devour. It doesn't matter if the pit is literal or not. If satan is depited locked up somewhere, it is then a contradiction for him to be roaming outside of where he depicted locked up in.

Consider these locusts in Revelation 9, for instance. They are in the same pit satan will be in. And while they are in the pit it's as if they don't even exist at the time. Their activities in the earth, thus outside of the pit, are zero when they are in the pit. Surely then, when satan is in the pit the same has to be true of him as well. Except we see plenty of proof of his activities throughout the earth when Amil has him in the pit. Therefore, he can't be in the pit yet.

• Do you believe Satan and his minions are physical beings?
• Is the dragon in Revelation 20:2 a literal physical dragon?
• Is the serpent in Revelation 20:2 a literal physical serpent?
• Do you believe Satan literally has 7 heads and 7 necks?
• Is the key mentioned in Revelation 20:1 a literal metal door key?
• Is the chain mentioned in Revelation 20:1 a literal metal chain?
• Is the prison mentioned in Revelation 20:7 a literal brick prison?
• Do you believe demons need to be detained in a literal physical prison with literal metal chains in order to be restrained?
• Can a prisoner in a prison have great wrath while in chains?
• Does imprisonment mean immobility?
• Does it mean a prisoner cannot do harm?
• Can a dog on a chain walk or roam about?
• Can a prisoner in a prison walk or roam about?
• Can a prisoner deceive others in prison?
• Does a prisoner have the ability to kill, steal, destroy, rape and embezzle in prison?

 

[WPM]

A 'place' whether spiritual or literal, would have to be 'location', would it not? If you had said this instead---and I’m guessing it’s a spiritual condition--in this case a location of some kind wouldn't be applicable, since it doesn't imply a location while 'a place' does.

If meaning a condition, location and bounderies shouldn't matter. But they would matter if meaning location.

Something to keep in mind regardless what the pit is or isn't. satan, unlike God, can't be in multiple places at the same time. Therefore, if he is depicted as bound and shut up in a pit, he can not also be roaming around freely outside of the pit, as a roaring lion, seeking whom to devour. It doesn't matter if the pit is literal or not. If satan is depited locked up somewhere, it is then a contradiction for him to be roaming outside of where he depicted locked up in.

Consider these locusts in Revelation 9, for instance. They are in the same pit satan will be in. And while they are in the pit it's as if they don't even exist at the time. Their activities in the earth, thus outside of the pit, are zero when they are in the pit. Surely then, when satan is in the pit the same has to be true of him as well. Except we see plenty of proof of his activities throughout the earth when Amil has him in the pit. Therefore, he can't be in the pit yet.

When Satan is released before the second coming for a little season then so is the beast, and Satan's minions. We see the devils in Revelation 9:2-3, the beast in 2 Thessalonians 2:3-12, Revelation 11:7 and Revelation 17:8, and Satan in Revelation 9:10-11 and Revelation 20:3 all being released before the second coming for a little season. Then comes the end! But Christ comes in majestic and eternal glory to overthrow the kingdom of darkness forever. The demonic realm is all killed when Satan is destroyed at the climactic second coming (Isaiah 26:19-27:1, 2 Thessalonians 2:8, Revelation 19:20, 20:9-10).

 

[grafted branch]

You interpret it literally just like Premills do. Amills do not interpret it that way. I showed you how I interpret his binding. Not sure what else I can do.

Yea, let me go with what @Davidpt said, you are defining Satan’s binding as a condition put on him. Is that correct?

If so then that condition can’t be present when Satan sows the tares, here’s your statement on what the binding of Satan is …



“It has to do with spoiling his house, destroying his works, taking the power of death away from him and keeping him from deceiving almost the entire world awhile keeping them in spiritual darkness as slaves to the fear of death as he was able to do in OT times.”


Therefore, based on your interpretation, tares can’t be part of Satan’s house(house spoiled), they can’t perform his works(his works destroyed), they have to have the ability to be saved(power of death removed), and they can’t be deceived or in spiritual darkness.

Tell me, what exactly is a tare? It appears to me that it could very well be saved individuals that Satan is sowing.

What do you mean "his minions"? His angels? Of course he has help to do what he does and doesn't just do it all himself.

I’m not arguing against Satan having help, I simply stating what the parable says “The enemy that sowed them is the devil”. The parable doesn’t say satanic angels sowed, it’s Satan himself. Just like it’s the Son of man that also sowed, not the disciples or anyone else.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

A 'place' whether spiritual or literal, would have to be 'location', would it not? If you had said this instead---and I’m guessing it’s a spiritual condition--in this case a location of some kind wouldn't be applicable, since it doesn't imply a location while 'a place' does.

If meaning a condition, location and bounderies shouldn't matter. But they would matter if meaning location.

Something to keep in mind regardless what the pit is or isn't. satan, unlike God, can't be in multiple places at the same time. Therefore, if he is depicted as bound and shut up in a pit, he can not also be roaming around freely outside of the pit, as a roaring lion, seeking whom to devour. It doesn't matter if the pit is literal or not. If satan is depited locked up somewhere, it is then a contradiction for him to be roaming outside of where he depicted locked up in.

Consider these locusts in Revelation 9, for instance. They are in the same pit satan will be in. And while they are in the pit it's as if they don't even exist at the time. Their activities in the earth, thus outside of the pit, are zero when they are in the pit. Surely then, when satan is in the pit the same has to be true of him as well. Except we see plenty of proof of his activities throughout the earth when Amil has him in the pit. Therefore, he can't be in the pit yet.

It's interesting that you're agreeing with a preterist about this in terms of Satan being literally locked up within a literal place whether it's physical or spiritual.

But, here's what I don't understand about how either of you see this. I think you guys don't fully understand how symbolism works.

To make my point, I'm first going to use the woman Babylon as an example of what I'm talking about. It is said that she sits on many waters (Rev 17:1), on a scarlet colored beast with seven heads and ten horns (Rev 17:3) and on seven mountains (Rev 17:9).

We know that the many waters she sits on are not literal waters. They are said to symbolically represent "peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues" (Rev 17:15). I'm sure I don't have to convince you that the beast with seven heads and ten horns is symbolic. I don't recall how you interpret the seven heads of the beast which are said to be seven kings and also seven mountains on which the woman sits. But, can a symbolic woman sit on literal things? Based on her sitting on symbolic things in Revelation 17 verses 1 and 3 I don't see how she can sit on literal mountains. In other scripture, mountains can symbolize kingdoms and that's what I believe the mountains symbolize. But, we don't need to talk about any of that here (please don't) because it's beside the point I'm making.

So, to summarize, my view is that a symbolic woman cannot sit on symbolic things. Similarly, I don't believe a dragon can be bound in a literal bottomless pit. Yes, Revelation 20 talks about the binding of Satan, but it's portrayed as the binding of a symbolic dragon with a symbolic chain in a bottomless pit or prison. I don't believe any of that is meant to be taken literally. In other scripture it describes the symbolic beast being in the bottomless pit (Rev 11:7, Rev 17:8) and symbolic locusts being in the bottomless pit (Rev 9). How can symbolic things be bound in a literal place? I don't believe that's possible any more than I believe that a symbolic woman can sit on literal things. Symbolic entities are bound in a symbolic place just as the symbolic woman sits on symbolic things. Instead of taking all that literally, we need to determine what all that symbolizes in reality.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Yea, let me go with what @Davidpt said, you are defining Satan’s binding as a condition put on him. Is that correct?

Yes, that's correct. A restraint of his activities rather than it being a case of him being locked up in a literal place as you both believe. How interesting that you, a preterist, are agreeing with him, a futurist, about this. I told him something similar.

If so then that condition can’t be present when Satan sows the tares, here’s your statement on what the binding of Satan is …

“It has to do with spoiling his house, destroying his works, taking the power of death away from him and keeping him from deceiving almost the entire world awhile keeping them in spiritual darkness as slaves to the fear of death as he was able to do in OT times.”

Therefore, based on your interpretation, tares can’t be part of Satan’s house(house spoiled), they can’t perform his works(his works destroyed), they have to have the ability to be saved(power of death removed), and they can’t be deceived or in spiritual darkness.

Nope. You just have no understanding of Amil at all. I mean absolutely none. You prove that over and over again. Why that is, I don't know. I am not saying that Satan is completely restricted from doing any of those things. I'm saying he is restrained and not able to do those things to the extent that he did in Old Testament times.

In Old Testament times, was Satan restrained from keeping people in bondage to the fear of death by way of using his power of death? No. How about in New Testament times? In New Testament times he has been restrained from doing that, right? That's what it indicates in Hebrews 2:14-15 which says that Jesus took the power of death away from Satan by way of His death. His power was not completely taken away, but it was reduced to being not nearly to the extent it was in Old Testament times when Gentiles had "no hope" and were "without God in the world" (Eph 2:11-12). Surely, we would not say that Gentiles have had "no hope" and are "without God in the world" in New Testament times, right? A "great multitude" of Gentiles have been saved in New Testament times (Rev 7:9). So, I see that as being directly related to the binding of Satan.

You need to address what I believe instead of your straw man's beliefs. Your straw man believes like you do that Satan's binding has to do with him being unable to do anything. That's not how I see it.

Tell me, what exactly is a tare? It appears to me that it could very well be saved individuals that Satan is sowing.

Say what now? What are you talking about?

Matthew 13:38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;

The tares are "the children of the wicked one". You think "the children of the wicked one" are saved individuals?

I’m not arguing against Satan having help, I simply stating what the parable says “The enemy that sowed them is the devil”. The parable doesn’t say satanic angels sowed, it’s Satan himself. Just like it’s the Son of man that also sowed, not the disciples or anyone else.

Does Jesus not work through us? He does, right? He dwells in us spiritually and guides us and works through us. So, if He does something through us, can't it be said that He did it even though we technically did it? Of course. Similarly, Satan can be credited with doing something even if others are doing it for him.

Do you really think that Revelation 20:7-9 is talking about Satan alone going throughout the world to gather people and lead them in a quest to destroy "the camp of the saints"? You think he has no help in doing that? If you think he does, despite it only mentioned him specifically, then why would you not also realize that it's not Satan alone doing the sowing on his behalf?

 

[Scott Downey]

Yea, let me go with what @Davidpt said, you are defining Satan’s binding as a condition put on him. Is that correct?

If so then that condition can’t be present when Satan sows the tares, here’s your statement on what the binding of Satan is …



“It has to do with spoiling his house, destroying his works, taking the power of death away from him and keeping him from deceiving almost the entire world awhile keeping them in spiritual darkness as slaves to the fear of death as he was able to do in OT times.”


Therefore, based on your interpretation, tares can’t be part of Satan’s house(house spoiled), they can’t perform his works(his works destroyed), they have to have the ability to be saved(power of death removed), and they can’t be deceived or in spiritual darkness.

Tell me, what exactly is a tare? It appears to me that it could very well be saved individuals that Satan is sowing.


I’m not arguing against Satan having help, I simply stating what the parable says “The enemy that sowed them is the devil”. The parable doesn’t say satanic angels sowed, it’s Satan himself. Just like it’s the Son of man that also sowed, not the disciples or anyone else.

To be sowed by Satan, you must be then of the devil.
Which means Satan is your father and you follow after Satan and desire to do his will.
Just as those who are of God follow Christ and desire to do God's will for them.
John tells us of Cain

1 John 3
11 For this is the message that you heard from the beginning, that we should love one another,
12 not as Cain who was of the wicked one and murdered his brother.
And why did he murder him? Because his works were evil and his brother’s righteous.

By implication those who do evil works are of Satan. What does Satan sow into the mind of the unjust? Evil mindedness, wicked thoughts, to do evil works. Why do they listen?

John 8 is similar teaching to Ephesians 2

42 Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, (born of God) you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and came from God; nor have I come of Myself, but He sent Me. 43 Why do you not understand My speech? Because you are not able to listen to My word. 44 You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar and the father of it. 45 But because I tell the truth, you do not believe Me. 46 Which of you convicts Me of sin? And if I tell the truth, why do you not believe Me? 47 He who is of God hears God’s words; therefore you do not hear, because you are not (born) of God.”

We must, to be saved, also have God as our Father, who is in heaven, hallowed be His name. Only then we love Christ. He does this by making us alive to Him. Such people who are alive in this way have a connection to God in that they can hear God.

1 John 4:19
We love Him because He first loved us.

Ephesians 2
1 And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, 2 in which you once walked according to the [a]course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, 3 among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.
4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved)

Jesus called Judas a devil.
So, Judas was not of God, Judas was of Satan, even so God uses wickedness for His eternal purposes, it is why evil still exists in this world.
But at the return of Christ all the evil things of this world and the works of evil will be destroyed in a fiery cataclysm, the end of this world approaches and God will give us a new righteous one, and all the evil will be cast into the lake of fire.

We are receiving a kingdom which cannot be shaken.

Hebrews 12
25 See that you do not refuse Him who speaks. For if they did not escape who refused Him who spoke on earth, much more shall we not escape if we turn away from Him who speaks from heaven, 26 whose voice then shook the earth; but now He has promised, saying, “Yet once more I [k]shake not only the earth, but also heaven.” 27 Now this, “Yet once more,” indicates the removal of those things that are being shaken, as of things that are made, that the things which cannot be shaken may remain.

28 Therefore, since we are receiving a kingdom which cannot be shaken, let us have grace, by which we [l]may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear. 29 For our God is a consuming fire.

 

[grafted branch]

The tares are "the children of the wicked one". You think "the children of the wicked one" are saved individuals?

No I don’t, because I believe this took place during the OT. However, you have it taking place during the NT. If the children of the wicked one can’t be saved then Satan still has the power to keep them in bondage and darkness.

Do you think the children of the wicked one can be saved or not?

Does Jesus not work through us? He does, right? He dwells in us spiritually and guides us and works through us. So, if He does something through us, can't it be said that He did it even though we technically did it? Of course. Similarly, Satan can be credited with doing something even if others are doing it for him.

If you want to change the parable into Satan not doing the sowing to fit your narrative then go ahead, but I don’t think anyone is going to be persuaded that’s a correct interpretation.

 

[Scott Downey]

The parable of the wheat and tares is from the eternal perspective of God, as finished works.

Revelation 22
10 And he said to me, “Do not seal the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is at hand.

11 He who is unjust, let him be unjust still; he who is filthy, let him be filthy still; he who is righteous, let him [a]be righteous still; he who is holy, let him be holy still.”

Jesus Testifies to the Churches​

12 “And behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give to every one according to his work.

 

[grafted branch]

John 8 is similar teaching to Ephesians 2

John 8 took place under the OT before Satan was bound, Ephesians 2 takes place under the NT when Satan is bound, right?

 

[Scott Downey]

John 8 took place under the OT before Satan was bound, Ephesians 2 takes place under the NT when Satan is bound, right?

Hmmm

2 Timothy 2

20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and silver, but also of wood and clay, some for honor and some for dishonor. 21 Therefore if anyone cleanses himself from the latter, he will be a vessel for honor, [h]sanctified and useful for the Master, prepared for every good work. 22 Flee also youthful lusts; but pursue righteousness, faith, love, peace with those who call on the Lord out of a pure heart. 23 But avoid foolish and ignorant disputes, knowing that they generate strife. 24 And a servant of the Lord must not quarrel but be gentle to all, able to teach, patient,

25 in humility correcting those who are in opposition, if God perhaps will grant them repentance, so that they may know the truth,

26 and that they may come to their senses and escape the snare of the devil, having been taken captive by him to do his will.

 

[grafted branch]

Hmmm

2 Timothy 2

20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and silver, but also of wood and clay, some for honor and some for dishonor. 21 Therefore if anyone cleanses himself from the latter, he will be a vessel for honor, [h]sanctified and useful for the Master, prepared for every good work. 22 Flee also youthful lusts; but pursue righteousness, faith, love, peace with those who call on the Lord out of a pure heart. 23 But avoid foolish and ignorant disputes, knowing that they generate strife. 24 And a servant of the Lord must not quarrel but be gentle to all, able to teach, patient,

25 in humility correcting those who are in opposition, if God perhaps will grant them repentance, so that they may know the truth,

26 and that they may come to their senses and escape the snare of the devil, having been taken captive by him to do his will.

If the vessels of dishonor can become saved then is it possible for a tare (children of the wicked one) to become saved also?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

No I don’t, because I believe this took place during the OT.

Huh? There is no indication of that whatsoever. At least, nothing to indicate that it only took place during the OT time.

Matthew 13:18 Hear ye therefore the parable of the sower. 19 When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.

When has "the word of the kingdom" been preached? During NT times. It talks about the Son of Man sowing the good seed. The word of the kingdom is the gospel of Christ. It's still being preached today. So, what basis is there for thinking the parable took place during the OT times and not NT times? I suppose there is a sense in which you could say it was preached in OT times as well, but you certainly have to at least include NT times as being part of the parable.

The parable also relates to something that happens at the end of the age (see Matthew 13:40-43). That's referring to this temporal age that we're still living in today that will continue until the eternal age to come is ushered in (Luke 20:34-36, Mark 10:29-30, Luke 18:29-30).

However, you have it taking place during the NT.

Of course I do. The "word of the kingdom" is still being preached today and the wicked one is still deceiving people today.

If the children of the wicked one can’t be saved then Satan still has the power to keep them in bondage and darkness.

The point of the parable has nothing to do with saying that someone can't be a child of the wicked one and then later repent and become a child of the kingdom. The parable primarily relates to what will happen to the children of the kingdom and the children of the wicked one at the end of the age. Just read Jesus's explanation of the parable in Matthew 13:36-43 and you should see that.

So, with that being the case, Jesus is referring to those who are the children of the kingdom and children of the wicked one at the end of the age without saying anything one way or another about whether any of those who are children of the kingdom were formerly children of the wicked one. That has nothing to do with the point of the parable. Instead, it has to do with what happens to those represented by the wheat and those represented by the tares at the end of the age. Anyone who is a child of the wicked one at the end of the age will be cast into the fire. Anyone who is a child of the kingdom at the end of the age will inherit the kingdom of their Father regardless of having formerly been children of the wicked one.

Do you think the children of the wicked one can be saved or not?

Of course they can! Are you not aware that you and I were formerly children of the wicked one before we became saved? The parable is about what happens to those who are children of the kingdom and what happens to the children of the wicked one when the end of the age comes. Once the end of the age comes, it's too late for anyone who is a child of the wicked one at that point to repent.

If you want to change the parable into Satan not doing the sowing to fit your narrative then go ahead, but I don’t think anyone is going to be persuaded that’s a correct interpretation.

LOL. I have him doing some of the sowing himself and his angels and his children doing some of the sowing for him, which is still basically him doing it because they are just serving him. When Jesus does something through us, who deserves the credit for it, us or Jesus? Jesus, of course. We're just submitting to Him and letting Him work through us, so it's really Him doing it. We can do all things through Christ who strengthens us (Phil 4:13) and apart from Him we can do nothing (John 15:5).

Many people agree with my interpretation of the parable, so what are you talking about that you don't think anyone is going to be persuaded that it's a correct interpretation?