Christ has already returned ?

[ProDeo]

Let me be clear: I fully understand that people have their own beliefs and their own faith, and I’m not here to take that away from anyone. All I’m doing is sharing information from Scripture as I understand it. These aren’t demands, requirements, or expectations for anyone to follow. They’re simply ideas people can agree with or disagree with.

At the end of the day, it’s healthy to recognize that differences in belief are normal. If we can’t show friendship or respect toward an atheist, a Muslim, a Jewish person, a Mormon, or a Jehovah’s Witness, then what good is our faith or our love for others. There are already enough voices trying to divide people, and that kind of mindset isn’t healthy for anyone.

​

@ProDeo, and @grafted branch - Both of of those scriptures co-relate to one another.​

1. 1 Thessalonians 4:17 — “We who are alive and remain…”​

Paul is speaking to living first‑century believers, not future generations.

• “We who are alive”
• “We who remain”

Paul includes himself because he expected this event in their lifetime (1 Thess. 5:23; 1 Cor. 15:51–52; Rom. 13:11–12).

This is covenant‑transition language, not a 2026 rapture.

2. Matthew 24:40–41 — “One taken, one left”​

Jesus is speaking to His disciples about what they would see:

• “When YOU see all these things…”
• “This generation will not pass away…” (Matt. 24:34)

The “taken/left” imagery is judgment‑separation language tied to the coming of the Son of Man in their generation.

It’s the same event Paul is describing — the separation of the faithful remnant (the Bride) from unbelieving Israel.

3. Matthew 24:42 — “Stay awake…”​

Again, Jesus is speaking to them, not us.

He tells them:

• “Stay awake”
• “You do not know what day your Lord is coming”

This matches Paul’s warnings in 1 Thessalonians 5:

• “You are not in darkness…”
• “Let us not sleep…”
• “The day of the Lord will come like a thief…”

Same audience. Same urgency. Same generation.

4. How they connect to the first‑century Bride​

All three passages describe:

• the same coming of the Son of Man
• the same separation of faithful vs. unfaithful
• the same generation
• the same covenant transition
• the same Bride being gathered

Paul and Jesus are talking about the first‑century remnant, the Bride who was told to:

• watch
• wait
• stay awake
• be ready
• endure
• look for His appearing

Those commands were never given to us in 2026.

Bottom line​

Yes — these scriptures absolutely correlate, and they all point to the same first‑century event involving the first‑century Bride.

They are not about us today. They were about them — the people who lived in the final days of the old covenant age.

I agree, among all the end times theories this one is the only one without buts even supported with some historical evidence from 2 unbelieving Roman historians, however if it is the 100% truth I am careful not to say that as there so many other questions left in Revelations to get the full picture.

I am not so worried about resistance, when something new is offered the standard reaction is denial, that's normal human behavior. I often do the same. But at least I am aware of it. Here is a quote from a philosopher who said it better than me.

"What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires - desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence.
-- Bertrand Russell, philosopher

 

[rockytopva]

Christ's return...

But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father. - Mark 13:32
Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come. - Matthew 24:42

We can theorize dates and may be right on the money. But... We can't really know for sure... It would only be a lucky guess.

 

[ProDeo]

And... continuing to read....

But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. - 1 Thessalonians 5:1-2

Paul or any other did not specify a time, congregation, or generation. The time, congregation, or generation stuff only came out of Protestants post Catholic. In which.... They were always wrong.

1Thess 4:17 Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord.
1Thess 4:18 Therefore encourage one another with these words.

Next verses

1Thess 5:1 Now concerning the times and the seasons, brothers, you have no need to have anything written to you.
1Thess 5:2 For you yourselves are fully aware that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night.

4:17 happens before 5:12

4:17 rapture in the sky saving those Jews who believed the Gospel from the great tribulation, somewhere in the 66-70 AD period when the great tribulation started.

5:1-2 --> the terrible day of the Lord in AD 70.

 

[rockytopva]

1Thess 4:17 Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord.
1Thess 4:18 Therefore encourage one another with these words.

Next verses

1Thess 5:1 Now concerning the times and the seasons, brothers, you have no need to have anything written to you.
1Thess 5:2 For you yourselves are fully aware that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night.

4:17 happens before 5:12

4:17 rapture in the sky saving those Jews who believed the Gospel from the great tribulation, somewhere in the 66-70 AD period when the great tribulation started.

5:1-2 --> the terrible day of the Lord in AD 70.

The 70 AD stuff was the end of the first covenant....

And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple. And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down. - Matthew 24:1-2

In which...

And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled. - Luke 21:24

Now Jerusalem is back in the hands of the Jews makes me wonder how close we are to the return of the Lord Jesus.

 

[ProDeo]

The 70 AD stuff was the end of the first covenant....

And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple. And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down. - Matthew 24:1-2

In which...

And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled. - Luke 21:24

Now Jerusalem is back in the hands of the Jews makes me wonder how close we are to the return of the Lord Jesus.

I have moved to unfulfilled OT prophecies like Zach chapters 12-14, and/or the total destruction of Damascus. Some key verses -

Isa 17:1 An oracle concerning Damascus. Behold, Damascus will cease to be a city and will become a heap of ruins.

Zach 12:2 “Behold, I am about to make Jerusalem a cup of staggering to all the surrounding peoples. The siege of Jerusalem will also be against Judah.
Zach 12:3 On that day I will make Jerusalem a heavy stone for all the peoples. All who lift it will surely hurt themselves. And all the nations of the earth will gather against it.

Zach 12:10 “And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and pleas for mercy, so that, when they look on me, on him whom they have pierced, they shall mourn for him, as one mourns for an only child, and weep bitterly over him, as one weeps over a firstborn.

Zach 14:1 Behold, a day is coming for the LORD, when the spoil taken from you will be divided in your midst.
Zach 14:2 For I will gather all the nations against Jerusalem to battle, and the city shall be taken and the houses plundered and the women raped. Half of the city shall go out into exile, but the rest of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
Zach 14:3 Then the LORD will go out and fight against those nations as when he fights on a day of battle.
Zach 14:4 On that day his feet shall stand on the Mount of Olives that lies before Jerusalem on the east, and the Mount of Olives shall be split in two from east to west by a very wide valley, so that one half of the Mount shall move northward, and the other half southward.

Zach 14:4 sounds as the bodily return of Jesus, not only in the sky as in Matt 24.

 

[MatthewG]

And... continuing to read....

But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. - 1 Thessalonians 5:1-2

Paul or any other did not specify a time, congregation, or generation. The time, congregation, or generation stuff only came out of Protestants post Catholic. In which.... They were always wrong.

Jesus did give a time‑frame — a single generation, about forty years — and He tied it directly to the destruction of Jerusalem. He said plainly:

“This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.” — Matthew 24:34

And He defined the signs as events in Judea, not worldwide:

“Let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.” — Matthew 24:16

He even gave the trigger:

“When you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near.” — Luke 21:20

That happened in A.D. 70, exactly one generation after He spoke those words.

So yes — Jesus gave a time‑frame, and it was fulfilled exactly as He said.


Now let me ask you something: If they weren’t given a time, then why did Paul write to them at all about the Day of the Lord?

Paul says they already knew the timing because Jesus had taught it:

“For yourselves know perfectly…” — 1 Thessalonians 5:2

And he told them — not a future age — that the day was approaching:

“The night is far spent, the day is at hand.” — Romans 13:12

“The Lord is near.” — Philippians 4:5

“In a very little while, He who is coming will come and will not delay.” — Hebrews 10:37

Those are not statements for thousands of years later. They were written to people who were actually living in the final days of the old covenant age.


As for Old Testament prophecies being unfulfilled because of Israel’s disobedience — that’s true in some cases. Scripture even says it:

“They rebelled… therefore He became their enemy.” — Isaiah 63:10

But the prophecies concerning the end of the age, the Messiah, and the judgment on Jerusalem were not conditional. Jesus said:

“These are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.” — Luke 21:22

That’s not conditional language. That’s fulfillment language.

 

[rockytopva]

Jesus did give a time‑frame — a single generation, about forty years — and He tied it directly to the destruction of Jerusalem. He said plainly:


And He defined the signs as events in Judea, not worldwide:


He even gave the trigger:


That happened in A.D. 70, exactly one generation after He spoke those words.

So yes — Jesus gave a time‑frame, and it was fulfilled exactly as He said.


Now let me ask you something: If they weren’t given a time, then why did Paul write to them at all about the Day of the Lord?

Paul says they already knew the timing because Jesus had taught it:


And he told them — not a future age — that the day was approaching:




Those are not statements for thousands of years later. They were written to people who were actually living in the final days of the old covenant age.


As for Old Testament prophecies being unfulfilled because of Israel’s disobedience — that’s true in some cases. Scripture even says it:


But the prophecies concerning the end of the age, the Messiah, and the judgment on Jerusalem were not conditional. Jesus said:


That’s not conditional language. That’s fulfillment language.

The Roman Empire is what brought an end to "these things" in which scattered the Jews. Christ did not return in 70 AD.

 

[MatthewG]

Jesus did give a time‑frame — a single generation, about forty years — and He tied it directly to the destruction of Jerusalem. He said plainly:


And He defined the signs as events in Judea, not worldwide:


He even gave the trigger:


That happened in A.D. 70, exactly one generation after He spoke those words.

So yes — Jesus gave a time‑frame, and it was fulfilled exactly as He said.


Now let me ask you something: If they weren’t given a time, then why did Paul write to them at all about the Day of the Lord?

Paul says they already knew the timing because Jesus had taught it:


And he told them — not a future age — that the day was approaching:




Those are not statements for thousands of years later. They were written to people who were actually living in the final days of the old covenant age.


As for Old Testament prophecies being unfulfilled because of Israel’s disobedience — that’s true in some cases. Scripture even says it:


But the prophecies concerning the end of the age, the Messiah, and the judgment on Jerusalem were not conditional. Jesus said:


That’s not conditional language. That’s fulfillment language.

@rockytopva I’m trying to understand your position clearly. From what you’ve shared so far, it sounds like a historicist, ongoing‑church‑age type of view — but that’s only my impression. Is that actually your full perspective? You’re quoting Scripture, but you haven’t explained the whole framework you’re using. I’d genuinely like to hear your complete view of what you believe is coming in the future.

Because quoting a single verse is one thing, but Jesus’ own words have to be dealt with honestly.

Jesus said:

“This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.” — Matthew 24:34

If your view says Jesus was wrong about that, then at least be open about it. Many people throughout history have admitted they think Jesus was mistaken here — even Charles Spurgeon called it “the most embarrassing verse” for interpreters.

But I don’t believe Jesus was wrong. I believe His words meant something, and they were spoken to real people in a real time‑frame.

So before we go further, I’d honestly like to hear your full view, not just isolated verses. What do you actually believe Jesus meant, and what do you believe is still ahead?

 

[MatthewG]

The Roman Empire is what brought an end to "these things" in which scattered the Jews. Christ did not return in 70 AD.

So Jesus was wrong, apparently then. Don't be so quick to answer I havent even asked you a real question. Jesus was a liar apparently (most people think this), and everything he said shouldnt be trusted... I should trust Rocky instead.

 

[rockytopva]

So Jesus was wrong, apparently then. Don't be so quick to answer I havent even asked you a real question. Jesus was a liar apparently (most people think this), and everything he said shouldnt be trusted... I should trust Rocky instead.

Christ was not wrong... MatthewG is wrong. Jesus Christ did not come back in 70 AD.

 

[MatthewG]

Im not gonna trust you @rockytopva just got you got a staff memeber badge. You can share and do whatever you want to do, but you wont change my mind.

Just be honest and real at least... you dont believe Jesus came that is fine.

Maybe one day you'll see him. I dont know. I dont think I will not atleast until the day I die.

 

[MatthewG]

Christ was not wrong... MatthewG is wrong. Jesus Christ did not come back in 70 AD.

Okay, if you think I’m wrong, that’s fine — let me be wrong. But going back and forth just because you don’t like what I’m saying doesn’t really help anything.

It almost feels like I’m on trial for a ban just for sharing my perspective. I can’t even say anything without being told I’m wrong and then talked down to by someone who thinks they have the authority to correct me.

For the record, I never said you were wrong.


@rockytopva I just said I aint gonna trust Isacc Newton over Jesus.

 

[rockytopva]

Matthew 28 speaks of many events...

1. The destruction of the temple
2. Israel being scattered among the gentiles
3. Wars and rumors of wars
4. False prophets
5. The flight out of Israel (Let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains)
6. A great tribulation
7. The rapture of the church (For wheresoever the carcass is, there will the eagles be gathered together)

In which the generation that experienced the flight out of Israel in 70 AD did not pass away until this happened.

 

[MatthewG]

I agree, among all the end times theories this one is the only one without buts even supported with some historical evidence from 2 unbelieving Roman historians, however if it is the 100% truth I am careful not to say that as there so many other questions left in Revelations to get the full picture.

I am not so worried about resistance, when something new is offered the standard reaction is denial, that's normal human behavior. I often do the same. But at least I am aware of it. Here is a quote from a philosopher who said it better than me.

"What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires - desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence.
-- Bertrand Russell, philosopher

I get what you’re saying, and honestly I agree with a lot of it. Out of all the end‑times frameworks, this one actually has historical grounding — not just theological speculation — and like you said, even non‑Christian Roman historians recorded events that line up with what Jesus described.

At the same time, I respect your caution. Revelation definitely has layers, and nobody should claim 100% certainty on every detail. But acknowledging what is clear doesn’t mean pretending everything is unclear.

And you’re right — resistance is normal. When someone hears something that challenges what they’ve always been taught, the first reaction is usually denial, not examination. That’s human nature.

Russell’s quote fits that perfectly. People accept what aligns with their instincts and reject what threatens them, even if the evidence is uneven on both sides.

But here’s the thing: The goal isn’t to defend instincts — it’s to follow the evidence wherever it leads, even if it disrupts long‑held assumptions.

And in this case, the combination of Jesus’ own time‑statements, the historical record, and the first‑century context is too strong to ignore. It doesn’t answer every question in Revelation, but it answers the big one: the time‑frame Jesus Himself gave.

 

[MatthewG]

Matthew 28 speaks of many events...

1. The destruction of the temple
2. Israel being scattered among the gentiles
3. Wars and rumors of wars
4. False prophets
5. The flight out of Israel (Let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains)
6. A great tribulation
7. The rapture of the church (For wheresoever the carcass is, there will the eagles be gathered together)

In which the generation that experienced the flight out of Israel in 70 AD did not pass away until this happened.

All I’m saying is that everything Jesus spoke about happened within His own timeline and framework, not ours. You disagree with that, and you’re sharing what you believe will happen in the future — and that’s completely fine. There are all kinds of views out there: Christian nationalism, future earthly conquest, physical resurrection instead of spiritual, long‑extended church ages, and so on. Everyone has their own lens.

Your view seems to be that the church age continues indefinitely until Jesus returns, and then history essentially resets. But you’ve made it clear that you don’t see A.D. 70, the destruction of Jerusalem, or the end of that covenant world as significant. That’s your choice.

But Jesus Himself emphasized the importance of that generation:

“These be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.” — Luke 21:22

“This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.” — Matthew 24:34

He wasn’t speaking vaguely. He gave a time‑frame, a location, and a warning to real people living in that moment.

You’re absolutely free to believe what you believe. Scripture gives people the freedom to choose:

“Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.” — Romans 14:5

But what you can’t do is demand that others follow your interpretation or imply that anyone who doesn’t agree with you isn’t a Christian. Paul warned against that kind of attitude:

“Who are you to judge another man’s servant?” — Romans 14:4

We’re all reading the same Scriptures, and we’re all responsible before God for what we believe. You’re allowed to hold your view — but you’re not in a position to police everyone else’s.

 

[MatthewG]

@ProDeo, I haven't sat down and read the Revelation outloud to myself in a long time but since finding out about the desturction of Jerusalem and those mentions of Jospehus, Tactius, Cassio Dio, reports in history concerning the those times are very interesting. You read the revelation outloud to yourself and as you are going you know you can kind of see the destruction overall view from when Jesus was speaknig to the entire outcome and it is all fasincating and as it is said a "Great and Dreadful day of the LORD." I'm thankful its over today and that we get to live and choose by the spirit and look towards God or not and live and love and just have life given as we breathe.

The revelation is the overall picture of what Jesus spoke in Matthew, Mark, and Luke. Concerning those things that the generation would see. It starts out with "these things soon to happen." Or "come quickly."

 

[ProDeo]

Jesus Before Caiaphas and the Council

Matt 26:57 Then those who had seized Jesus led him to Caiaphas the high priest, where the scribes and the elders had gathered.
Matt 26:58 And Peter was following him at a distance, as far as the courtyard of the high priest, and going inside he sat with the guards to see the end.
Matt 26:59 Now the chief priests and the whole council were seeking false testimony against Jesus that they might put him to death,
Matt 26:60 but they found none, though many false witnesses came forward. At last two came forward
Matt 26:61 and said, “This man said, ‘I am able to destroy the temple of God, and to rebuild it in three days.’”
Matt 26:62 And the high priest stood up and said, “Have you no answer to make? What is it that these men testify against you?”
Matt 26:63 But Jesus remained silent. And the high priest said to him, “I adjure you by the living God, tell us if you are the Christ, the Son of God.”
Matt 26:64 Jesus said to him, “You have said so. But I tell you, from now on you will see the Son of Man seated at the right hand of Power and coming on the clouds of heaven.”
Matt 26:65 Then the high priest tore his robes and said, “He has uttered blasphemy. What further witnesses do we need? You have now heard his blasphemy.

From now on

What did Jesus mean by that and did the high priest from that moment on see what Jesus said ?

Any takers ?

 

[MatthewG]

Let me be clear: I fully understand that people have their own beliefs and their own faith, and I’m not here to take that away from anyone. All I’m doing is sharing information from Scripture as I understand it. These aren’t demands, requirements, or expectations for anyone to follow. They’re simply ideas people can agree with or disagree with.

At the end of the day, it’s healthy to recognize that differences in belief are normal. If we can’t show friendship or respect toward an atheist, a Muslim, a Jewish person, a Mormon, or a Jehovah’s Witness, then what good is our faith or our love for others. There are already enough voices trying to divide people, and that kind of mindset isn’t healthy for anyone.







People are free to believe what they want. A lot of folks push back on that and say, “No, Matthew, people can’t just believe whatever they want.” But that’s simply not true. God never forced anyone to believe anything. If He were controlling, life under Him would be miserable. But He isn’t like that.

Scripture shows this clearly. Jesus said, “O Jerusalem… how often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing” (Matthew 23:37). That’s not control. That’s love being rejected. They were so far from God at that point that they were worshiping the Law more than the God who gave it (John 5:39–40).

So I don’t have any issue with people who believe Jesus is coming in the future. If that’s what someone wants to believe, that’s on them. Everyone is responsible for their own faith and their own conclusions. All any of us can do is share information for others to consider. That doesn’t make me right or wrong—it’s just a belief. Just like believing in God is a belief. And whether someone has the “right” understanding of God or not, God already knows their heart (1 Samuel 16:7).

I appreciate everyone who has engaged in this thread. My goal isn’t to deceive anyone or give false hope. I don’t need to “prove” anything. Either Jesus came and received the Bride as He promised, or He didn’t. For me, it really is that simple.

And I could be wrong. People need to think for themselves. I’m just sharing what I see in Scripture and history. No one has to follow me or agree with me. Faith is between you and God alone (Romans 14:5).