Salvation loss. Is it possible?

[101G]

Scott I believe we're on the right track but understanding it differently. I'm about clear understanding. I know we agree on the first coming in Spirit. but it's the second, or yet coming that we depart on. so as brothers in Christ let's get clear understanding. please lay out your case about the coming, or the appearance of the Lord in Hebrews 9:28 "So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation".

 

[BreadOfLife]

Define the resurrection correctly, and I will give chapter and verse to you again.

One of the main tenets of Christianity is that Jesus rose from the dead BODILY.
Without this belief - we have absolutely NO hope. Without this belief - you cannot be a Christian because you have invented another Christ.

1 Cor. 15:17
"and if Christ has not been raised, your faith is worthless; you are still in your sins."

After His resurrection, Jesus was able to eat (Luke 24:42-43).
He showed people His hands and feet with the nail prints in them (Luke 24:39; John 20:27).
People even grabbed His feet and worshipped Him (Matt. 28:9).

YOUR turn:
Show me the verse that says Jesus shed his physical Body in light of the fact that he ATE and touched and allowed Himself to be touched AFTER the Resurrection. Chapter and verse, please

If you can't do this - then your entire argument goes down the drain . . .

 

[Dcopymope]

Put a lid on the wise cracks and pay attention.

As I said... They are "in Christ." ..."Transfiguration" is "change." ...and...as I said... "Christ sent the Holy Spirit."

That's not who you said sent the holy spirit before........but m'kay, " change is good".

 

[ScottA]

Scott I believe we're on the right track but understanding it differently. I'm about clear understanding. I know we agree on the first coming in Spirit. but it's the second, or yet coming that we depart on. so as brothers in Christ let's get clear understanding. please lay out your case about the coming, or the appearance of the Lord in Hebrews 9:28 "So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation".

This, as in the other thread, is a matter of not being hung up on the timing, which is to say that we easily let time get in the way, because we are born into it and have trouble leaving that mindset behind when we are born [again] out of it and into the spirit of God. This is the need for translation of truth as it exists on high, as opposed to how we experience things in the lowly regions of the world.

Either way the answer is that Christ is the First and the Last, of which He said "the first shall be last and the last first." He is the Last of those born of the flesh, and the First of those born of the spirit of God.

But, again, some thinking as the world thinks, will say, "Surely there are those born after Christ." And, yeah, that is how the story from God is told in the media of time and in our life as we experience it. But not so with God, for time is only of the world, a creation aside from Himself. So, then, in the poetry of the word, we come to such explanations as "a time, times, and half a time", "forever and ever", and "in the twinkling of an eye." Which things are relative to Time, and for the telling, but not to God on high whose existence is the greater truth than that which was manifest for a finite purpose which is passing away.

So, what shall I tell you - what you want to hear, and what seems right in the world, or what is right by God?

I shall tell you the truth by God: "the spiritual is not first, but the natural, and afterward the spiritual." That is all.

 

[twinc]

John 3:12 "If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things? 13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven".

nothing can or will make sense until it is grasped that we do not really understand heavenly things being carnal and materialist - Jesus clearly said to Mary Magdalene three profound words which have not yet been fully understood "touch me not" - twinc

 

[ScottA]

One of the main tenets of Christianity is that Jesus rose from the dead BODILY.
Without this belief - we have absolutely NO hope. Without this belief - you cannot be a Christian because you have invented another Christ.

1 Cor. 15:17
"and if Christ has not been raised, your faith is worthless; you are still in your sins."

After His resurrection, Jesus was able to eat (Luke 24:42-43).
He showed people His hands and feet with the nail prints in them (Luke 24:39; John 20:27).
People even grabbed His feet and worshipped Him (Matt. 28:9).

YOUR turn:
Show me the verse that says Jesus shed his physical Body in light of the fact that he ATE and touched and allowed Himself to be touched AFTER the Resurrection. Chapter and verse, please

If you can't do this - then your entire argument goes down the drain . . .

The answer is easy, but you make it difficult.

First, I do not deny that "Jesus rose from the dead BODILY." But your own words have told you what you have not reckoned with... Yes, He rose from the dead bodily, as you say, which was in the world - but He also ascended into heaven, meaning that He went to the Father (as He said), whom is only spirit.

But why would you say there is no hope in becoming One with God, just as Christ has? Indeed, there is no hope in the flesh which is under the curse of death, but rather in God (whom is spirit). This is the very essence of the good news of the gospel, that we may be born again of the spirit of God, and live.

So, when you ask for chapter and verse, it is not enough. The answer is many books. But if you do not have the faith to see it in these few verses, it is because you have not eyes to see - not because I have not given you enough already:

John 4:24
God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.”

John 16:28
I came forth from the Father and have come into the world. Again, I leave the world and go to the Father.”

John 20:17
Jesus said to her, “Do not cling to Me, for I have not yet ascended to My Father; but go to My brethren and say to them, ‘I am ascending to My Father and your Father, and to My God and your God.’”

 

[101G]

Either way the answer is that Christ is the First and the Last, of which He said "the first shall be last and the last first." He is the Last of those born of the flesh, and the First of those born of the spirit of God.

But, again, some thinking as the world thinks, will say, "Surely there are those born after Christ." And, yeah, that is how the story from God is told in the media of time and in our life as we experience it. But not so with God, for time is only of the world, a creation aside from Himself. So, then, in the poetry of the word, we come to such explanations as "a time, times, and half a time", "forever and ever", and "in the twinkling of an eye." Which things are relative to Time, and for the telling, but not to God on high whose existence is the greater truth than that which was manifest for a finite purpose which is passing away.

I must disagree. things that are spoken in earth are the manifestation of things in the Spirit, example Matthews 20 please read it. as there are many example of heavenly thing spoken in earthly terms.

see, the Lord Jesus is our example, who manifested heavenly things. if one read his life he is the pattern. things in the natural come forth from the spiritual. so God calls them. likewise time. for he created heavenly bodies just for this. if we can understand the natural so can we understand the heavenly. just because Nicodemus didn't understand heavenly things, it not that all men don't

 

[101G]

First, I do not deny that "Jesus rose from the dead BODILY." But your own words have told you what you have not reckoned with... Yes, He rose from the dead bodily, as you say, which was in the world - but He also ascended into heaven, meaning that He went to the Father (as He said), whom is only spirit.

is not Christ that Spirit?

 

[101G]

let's clear up this "first" and the "Last". the Lord Jesus is the first (Spirit) and the Last man (flesh and bones). First Spirit, and now Spirit diversified in flesh. See man is the last, (he's God image), no image is before his maker. God is the first in all things. Keep that in mind, don’t think worldly.

 

[Dcopymope]

The answer is easy, but you make it difficult.

First, I do not deny that "Jesus rose from the dead BODILY." But your own words have told you what you have not reckoned with... Yes, He rose from the dead bodily, as you say, which was in the world - but He also ascended into heaven, meaning that He went to the Father (as He said), whom is only spirit.

But why would you say there is no hope in becoming One with God, just as Christ has? Indeed, there is no hope in the flesh which is under the curse of death, but rather in God (whom is spirit). This is the very essence of the good news of the gospel, that we may be born again of the spirit of God, and live.

So, when you ask for chapter and verse, it is not enough. The answer is many books. But if you do not have the faith to see it in these few verses, it is because you have not eyes to see - not because I have not given you enough already:

John 4:24
God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.”

John 16:28
I came forth from the Father and have come into the world. Again, I leave the world and go to the Father.”

John 20:17
Jesus said to her, “Do not cling to Me, for I have not yet ascended to My Father; but go to My brethren and say to them, ‘I am ascending to My Father and your Father, and to My God and your God.’”

This discussion brings forth another question. Scripture states that we cannot see God because if we did we'd be deader than a door nail. So can God dwell among flesh at all? The way you use certain scriptures suggests that you believe this, with your constant referral to God being pure spirit, and other stating that flesh and blood cannot inherit his kingdom because of it.

 

[101G]

I would like to ask a question openly, meaning anyone can answer. In Revelation chapter 5, “Who is sitting on the throne, and who is standing”. maybe this will answer this question of a body in heaven or not. Thanks in advance. please give personal name or title of who's sitting and who stand

 

[Dcopymope]

I would like to ask a question openly, meaning anyone can answer. In Revelation chapter 5, “Who is sitting on the throne, and who is standing”. maybe this will answer this question of a body in heaven or not. Thanks in advance. please give personal name or title

Ezekiel gave a similar description of the one who sat on the throne as if he had a body. He had the appearance of a man, so when scripture states multiple times that we were made in God's image, it meant that literally. My faith isn't built on stupid metaphor's.

(Ezekiel 1:26-27) "¶ And above the firmament that was over their heads was the likeness of a throne, as the appearance of a sapphire stone: and upon the likeness of the throne was the likeness as the appearance of a man above upon it. {27} And I saw as the colour of amber, as the appearance of fire round about within it, from the appearance of his loins even upward, and from the appearance of his loins even downward, I saw as it were the appearance of fire, and it had brightness round about."

 

[ScottA]

I must disagree. things that are spoken in earth are the manifestation of things in the Spirit, example Matthews 20 please read it. as there are many example of heavenly thing spoken in earthly terms.

see, the Lord Jesus is our example, who manifested heavenly things. if one read his life he is the pattern. things in the natural come forth from the spiritual. so God calls them. likewise time. for he created heavenly bodies just for this. if we can understand the natural so can we understand the heavenly. just because Nicodemus didn't understand heavenly things, it not that all men don't

Your agreement or disagreement is only of consequence to you. But you have failed to make a case and have not heard the truth. Perhaps, then, rather than telling you the truth, I should ask you questions so that you can believe yourself when you come to the truth:

1. Which is greater, God or that which God has created or manifest?
2. Was Jesus' greatest "example" to us, to lower Himself and to walk beneath the "heavenly bodies", or to lay down this life and return to God whom is only spirit?
3. Is the natural first or last?
4. Is the world passing away?
5. Is God spirit, or flesh? Which is better?
6. Did Christ die in the flesh or in the spirit?
7. Did Christ commit his flesh or his spirit to the Father?
8. Which is better, the world where moth eat and rust decays, or heaven where there is no end?
9. If Christ is coming for us that we may be where he is, where is that?
10. What does the word of God refer to when it says, "then the end shall come?"

 

[101G]

This discussion brings forth another question. Scripture states that we cannot see God because if we did we'd be deader than a door nail. So can God dwell among flesh at all? The way you use certain scriptures suggests that you believe this, with your constant referral to God being pure spirit, and other stating that flesh and blood cannot inherit his kingdom because of it.

this is a good question which can be answered quickly. scripture, Matthew 1:23 "Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us". the oly was God is with us it to be in what we're in.... FLESH. 1 Timothy 3:16 "And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory".

 

[101G]

Ezekiel gave a similar description of the one who sat on the throne as if he had a body. He had the appearance of a man, so when scripture states multiple times that we were made in God's image, it meant that literally. My faith isn't built on stupid metaphor's.

Ok, who sits on the throne, the one whom many calls father or the son?.

 

[ScottA]

is not Christ that Spirit?

Yes, the Father and the Son are One.

 

[ScottA]

This discussion brings forth another question. Scripture states that we cannot see God because if we did we'd be deader than a door nail. So can God dwell among flesh at all? The way you use certain scriptures suggests that you believe this, with your constant referral to God being pure spirit, and other stating that flesh and blood cannot inherit his kingdom because of it.

2 Corinthians 5:18
Now all things are of God, who has reconciled us to Himself through Jesus Christ, and has given us the ministry of reconciliation,

 

[Dcopymope]

2 Corinthians 5:18
Now all things are of God, who has reconciled us to Himself through Jesus Christ, and has given us the ministry of reconciliation,

This is hardly an answer at all.

this is a good question which can be answered quickly. scripture, Matthew 1:23 "Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us". the oly was God is with us it to be in what we're in.... FLESH. 1 Timothy 3:16 "And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory".

When I say 'God', I'm referring to God the Father, not the son. If God can't dwell among the flesh, then that doesn't explain the events that occurred before the fall. Forget about Noah and Enoch who scripture states "walked with God", scripture wasn't splitting hairs when it describes God's physical presence in the garden with Adam and Eve. This is where most go wrong with their theological views on the flesh. Its not that flesh in of itself can't inherit the kingdom, if that was true, then the story of Adam and Eve would have been written a lot different. The fallen flesh we currently inherit can't, but the redeemed flesh of Jesus, Elijah, and Moses can.

Ok, who sits on the throne, the one whom many calls father or the son?.

Well it wasn't Jesus sitting on the throne in Revelation, so there is no reason to believe it was anybody else but God the Father in Ezekiel.

 

[101G]

"ScottA, said, "Your agreement or disagreement is only of consequence to you. But you have failed to make a case and have not heard the truth. Perhaps, then, rather than telling you the truth, I should ask you questions so that you can believe yourself when you come to the truth:

1. Which is greater, God or that which God has created or manifest?. before I answer this one is the manifestation is speaking of Christ?. for if it's manifestation no, he equal see phil 2:6
2. Was Jesus' greatest "example" to us, to lower Himself and to walk beneath the "heavenly bodies", or to lay down this life and return to God whom is only spirit?. every example Jesus gave was GREAT
3. Is the natural first or last? not according to God, but to man
4. Is the world passing away? for the new creature in Christ.
5. Is God spirit, or flesh? Which is better? God is Spirit that have a body, and he is diverse in that body
6. Has Christ die in the flesh or in the spirit?, NO he died "TO" the flesh and raised it up
7. Did Christ commit his flesh or his spirit to the Father?. scott why is you asking these simple question which i have answered before. spirit,
8. Which is better, the world where moth eat and rust decays, or heaven where there is no end? when the King comes he will make everything NEW including the HEAVENS
9. If Christ is coming for us that we may be where he is, where is that?. 1 Corinthians 15:51 "Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
10. What does the word of God refer to when it says, "then the end shall come?". when all is changed.

Now Scott, since you cannot acknowledge the Lord Jesus in Spirit with a body. my turn to ask a question. Revelation 1:1 "The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John". question Scott, "Who sent his angel to John to show the things that must come to pass". now before you answer, read Revelation 22:6 as to what the angel who was sent said who sent him. now was it,
A. the one who you call the Father, (Spirit), or was it,
B. the one whom you calls the Son (the man).

I'll be looking for your answer.

 

[ScottA]

2 Corinthians 5:18
Now all things are of God, who has reconciled us to Himself through Jesus Christ, and has given us the ministry of reconciliation,

This is hardly an answer at all.

Perhaps if I make it would have helped if I made the key point bold.

So, the answer is Yes, God can dwell among the flesh - but only among those who are in Christ and thereby reconciled to God.