Pre-Destination Or Free Will ???
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SovereignGrace
Certified Flunky
It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life.[John 6:63]
The lost person is alive physically but dead spiritually. In this state, they can not reach out to God because all they have is their flesh. In their lost state they hate God, are at enmity(an ill will towards God), are hostile towards God. Unless God first quickens them, they can not and will not seek Him.
It's a good thing that Jesus enlightens all! That God's grace that brings salvation appears to all men. Otherwise we'd have no chance.
But God made a way for dead men to live, and it starts with hearing the Word of God. Faith comes by hearing the Word of God. So we preach the Word.
Much love!
mark
Preacher4Truth
Well-Known Member
@marks,
One of your major flaws is in how you see man, which in turn truncates and distorts the person, attributes and character of God. You hold an unbiblical view of God, Scripture, man, and the Gospel. I am going to demonstrate this below.
Note that @SovereignGrace in his past also held to some errant views, but God graciously corrected him with Scripture and now he is a contender for the faith, and has a solid grasp on the Gospel of Christ. I pray the same for you as Paul did for all others in Christ; Ephesians 1:15-23.
As stated, you believe man is able to believe God and come to him on his own ability, due to a misapplied Finney/Pelagian theology on John 12:32 which you believe neutralizes Jesus' statements in John 6:37; John 6:44; John 6:65 and in John 17 where the whole world is not seen as able to come to Christ.
To you this all changed at the cross, so you believe now that every person is able to come to Christ in his own ability, by their own faith. But I am going to demonstrate that you are incorrect here by using post cross Gospel texts.
First, your view doesn't match the immutability of God found in Scripture, and his saving grace which is also immutable in its scope, God saving whom he wills, and whom he wills showing mercy; note Exodus 33:18-19. This is eternal truth.
All glory goes to him, and as seen in Exodus, the answer to seeing his glory was given in Exodus 33:19. You would fare well to read it and not continue your polemic path against it. God has always saved in the same manner, all by his will and purpose, and all by grace, which is unmerited. Saying man can come and choose in his free will ability is not grace, it is meritorious salvation.
Further points on your mistaken gospel: Take for instance that in your view, man has faith, all men have faith, contrary to Scripture. Yet, God shows, after the cross, that faith comes from God, is therefore external, and is not inherent within man, Romans 10:17; Ephesians 1:19; Romans 12:3; Acts 3:16; Philippians 1:29; 2 Peter 1:1 &c.
This nullifies your man glorifying gospel and shows that not all can come to him in their ability, because this faith, which is evidence of conversion, comes from God.
Not that you're going to take time and allow these passages to show your error, but they are there for others. I certainly hope you will allow God's word to correct you and will read them. Note 2 Timothy 3:16-17; 2 Timothy 2:15. Note 2 Thessalonians 3:2 as well.
The point of the matter is that unless God grants faith to the individual; 2 Peter 1:1, they will be lost, and not all men are extended this faith; 2 Thessalonians 3:2.
God has determined to save those whom he has elected, and none other; Note 2 Timothy 2:8-10. To these he grants faith and repentance. God has his people scattered in the world, and he will save them; John 11:52, and only them; 2 Peter 3:9.
None of this would be the case if man were able to come to God in his own ability, in his own "free will." So we see, after the cross, salvation is still in the sovereign hand of God, not in the ability of man. His saving grace is immutable, just as he is.
None are free in their will, or in any other sense, until set free by Christ; John 8:36.
One of your major flaws is in how you see man, which in turn truncates and distorts the person, attributes and character of God. You hold an unbiblical view of God, Scripture, man, and the Gospel. I am going to demonstrate this below.
Note that @SovereignGrace in his past also held to some errant views, but God graciously corrected him with Scripture and now he is a contender for the faith, and has a solid grasp on the Gospel of Christ. I pray the same for you as Paul did for all others in Christ; Ephesians 1:15-23.
As stated, you believe man is able to believe God and come to him on his own ability, due to a misapplied Finney/Pelagian theology on John 12:32 which you believe neutralizes Jesus' statements in John 6:37; John 6:44; John 6:65 and in John 17 where the whole world is not seen as able to come to Christ.
To you this all changed at the cross, so you believe now that every person is able to come to Christ in his own ability, by their own faith. But I am going to demonstrate that you are incorrect here by using post cross Gospel texts.
First, your view doesn't match the immutability of God found in Scripture, and his saving grace which is also immutable in its scope, God saving whom he wills, and whom he wills showing mercy; note Exodus 33:18-19. This is eternal truth.
All glory goes to him, and as seen in Exodus, the answer to seeing his glory was given in Exodus 33:19. You would fare well to read it and not continue your polemic path against it. God has always saved in the same manner, all by his will and purpose, and all by grace, which is unmerited. Saying man can come and choose in his free will ability is not grace, it is meritorious salvation.
Further points on your mistaken gospel: Take for instance that in your view, man has faith, all men have faith, contrary to Scripture. Yet, God shows, after the cross, that faith comes from God, is therefore external, and is not inherent within man, Romans 10:17; Ephesians 1:19; Romans 12:3; Acts 3:16; Philippians 1:29; 2 Peter 1:1 &c.
This nullifies your man glorifying gospel and shows that not all can come to him in their ability, because this faith, which is evidence of conversion, comes from God.
Not that you're going to take time and allow these passages to show your error, but they are there for others. I certainly hope you will allow God's word to correct you and will read them. Note 2 Timothy 3:16-17; 2 Timothy 2:15. Note 2 Thessalonians 3:2 as well.
The point of the matter is that unless God grants faith to the individual; 2 Peter 1:1, they will be lost, and not all men are extended this faith; 2 Thessalonians 3:2.
God has determined to save those whom he has elected, and none other; Note 2 Timothy 2:8-10. To these he grants faith and repentance. God has his people scattered in the world, and he will save them; John 11:52, and only them; 2 Peter 3:9.
None of this would be the case if man were able to come to God in his own ability, in his own "free will." So we see, after the cross, salvation is still in the sovereign hand of God, not in the ability of man. His saving grace is immutable, just as he is.
None are free in their will, or in any other sense, until set free by Christ; John 8:36.
SovereignGrace
Certified Flunky
However, true enlightenment comes via His word. Many died w/o ever reading a bible, never knowing the Christ existed.
If no one hears the word of God, none can be saved.
Preacher4Truth
Well-Known Member
You didn't take time to examine what I gave you so it's really a waste of time and effort dialoging with you. You just don't care, really, so you cherry pick something, read whats given in a cursory manner, find a point to get uptight about, and pretend that since you found a point, all the rest is undone.
Sad, disrespectful, pretentious and disingenuous of you.
If you had a little respect for the word, and myself, in giving you ample refutation, you'd see that your notion all can come necessitates innate faith. They are granted faith, and said faith is the same power that raised Christ; Ephesians 1:19.
Take the time to let the word given you show your errors, as of right now you just really don't care that your gospel is flawed, so you rush to what someone said to find something to disagree with, and fool yourself into thinking your errors don't exist.
Take time to respect the word and others and allow yourself to be corrected as I've done.
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SovereignGrace
Certified Flunky
For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men,instructing us to deny ungodliness and worldly desires and to live sensibly, righteously and godly in the present age, looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus, who gave Himself for us to redeem us from every lawless deed, and to purify for Himself a people for His own possession, zealous for good deeds. These things speak and exhort and reprove with all authority. Let no one disregard you.[Titus 2:11-15]
When you extrapolate a verse from its context you lose the meaning of what the writer is conveying. Look at vss 12ff. It is the us, the believers who Titus is referring to as all men. Compare “and to purify for Himself a ppl for His own possession” with But you are A CHOSEN RACE, A royal PRIESTHOOD, A HOLY NATION, A PEOPLE FOR God’s OWN POSSESSION, so that you may proclaim the excellencies of Him who has called you out of darkness into His marvelous light;[1 Peter 2:9]
So long as your view conflicts with other passages, I believe this demonstrates that your view does not account for all Bible teaching.
God says He wants everyone to be saved.
God says that anyone who believes will be saved.
God states that all who call upon the Name of the Lord will be saved.
God says that if we confess with our mouth the Lord Jesus, and believe in our hearts that God raised Him from the dead we shall be saved.
Jesus invites, come to me, all who are weary and heavy laden.
Jesus assures that whoever comes to Him He will not cast out.
I could go on, but let these suffice. I expect that you know the references for these.
You characterize my doctrine as salvation by our own ability but that is not what I believe or teach, it is your straw man, so if you want to, go ahead and argue against it, but that's all you're doing.
Let's take a look at some Scriptures.
So . . . the first you mentioned, Ephesians 1:15-23:
15 Wherefore I also, after I heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus, and love unto all the saints,
16 Cease not to give thanks for you, making mention of you in my prayers;
17 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:
18 The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,
19 And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power,
20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,
21 Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come:
22 And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church,
23 Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.
"Towards us who believe" - there's the qualifier - who believe.
You've mentioned the verses on God drawing some while Jesus says He will draw all, and concluding the John 17, asserting this passage teaches that the entire world is unable to come to Christ. Jesus speaks of those whom the Father gave Him, in keeping with these verses. Then He says,
20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
In keeping with what else Jesus said. Again, those also which shall believe. Same qualifier - Belief.
Next up . . . Exodus 33:18-19
18 And he said, I beseech thee, shew me thy glory.
19 And he said, I will make all my goodness pass before thee, and I will proclaim the name of the Lord before thee; and will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will shew mercy on whom I will shew mercy.
God alone decides upon whom He shall bestow mercy. He's told us His criteria. Those who believe. See above.
Next . . . "So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God." You assert faith comes by election, and electing the election of God.
Ephesian 1:19 "And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power,
Romans 12:3 "For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith."
Has God given to every man a measure of faith? I think that puts us on the hook to use it. It's like in Romans 1, everyone knows God exists. But not everyone wants to.
Acts 3:16 "And his name through faith in his name hath made this man strong, whom ye see and know: yea, the faith which is by him hath given him this perfect soundness in the presence of you all."
Not sure what point you are making with this passage, perhaps you could elaborate. of course if we read on a little further, we read:
18 But those things, which God before had shewed by the mouth of all his prophets, that Christ should suffer, he hath so fulfilled.
19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord.
The Apostle urges them to repent. Why?
Philipians 1:29 "For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;"
Take a look in Young's Literal Translation:
"because to you it was granted, on behalf of Christ, not only to believe in him, but also on behalf of him to suffer;"
You believe in him, and it has been granted to you to also suffer on his behalf.
1 Peter 1:1 "Simeon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to those who did obtain a like precious faith with us in the righteousness of our God and Saviour Jesus Christ:"
We've received the same faith as Peter, and the other apostles, the faith that comes from Jesus. We hear the Word, we receive faith, and we obey the Gospel. Others hear the Word but do not obey.
OK, these are several. I'll stop here for now.
Much love!
Mark
SovereignGrace
Certified Flunky
Sad that they claim to have this very same power lying dormant, just waiting for a reason to wield it.
Having completely dissolved to pejoritive responses, there's no longer any discussion.
I guess I'm glad I stopped when I did.
Much love!
Mark
I guess you wrote this while I was attempting to address the Scriptures you cited, but without posting, line by line. Takes more time when I need to do the posting for you.
But there you go.
SovereignGrace
Certified Flunky
God has no pleasure in the death of the wicked[Ezekiel 33:11], But He has not willed the saving of all ppl, either. You then misapply [1 Timothy 2:4] by extrapolating it from the following...For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave Himself as a ransom for all, the testimony given at the proper time. For this I was appointed a preacher and an apostle (I am telling the truth, I am not lying) as a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and truth. The mediator brings peace between two ppl who are at odds with each other. Seeing that many die never having peace with God, we can know He, the Christ, is not a Mediator for goats, but for His sheep.
Preacher4Truth
Well-Known Member
I recall reading that text and seeing what it really says for the first time. If we believe, it came from God. It dispells any notion we came to God in our own ability because no one would come for something from God in which they do not believe. This is one reason why @marks is incorrect in his rejection of the present fact none can come by "free will."Sad that they claim to have this very same power lying dormant, just waiting for a reason to wield it.
SovereignGrace
Certified Flunky
Sad that ppl believe in a God who can save those He has the power to save, but stands back and watches them die lost because they are too dumb to choose wisely.
It’s like you having the ability to drag a kid off a railroad track as a train is barreling towards them, but you plead with them to step off but they won’t right up until “splat!” You could have saved them, but left it up to them and they died. But you tried, right?
SovereignGrace
Certified Flunky
Mission Accomplished by Shai Linne
Verse 1
Here’s a controversial subject that tends to divide
For years it’s had Christians lining up on both sides
By God’s grace, I’ll address this without pride
The question concerns those for whom Christ died
Was He trying to save everybody worldwide?
Was He trying to make the entire world His Bride?
Does man’s unbelief keep the Savior’s hands tied?
Biblically, each of these must be denied
It’s true, Jesus gave up His life for His Bride
But His Bride is the elect, to whom His death is applied
If on judgment day, you see that you can’t hide
And because of your sin, God’s wrath on you abides
And hell is the place you eternally reside
That means your wrath from God hasn’t been satisfied
But we believe His mission was accomplished when He died
But how the cross relates to those in hell?
Well, they be saying:
Lord knows He tried (8x)
Verse 2
Father, Son and Spirit: three and yet one
Working as a unit to get things done
Our salvation began in eternity past
God certainly has to bring all His purpose to pass
A triune, eternal bond no one could ever sever
When it comes to the church, peep how they work together
The Father foreknew first, the Son came to earth
To die- the Holy Spirit gives the new birth
The Father elects them, the Son pays their debt and protects them
The Spirit is the One who resurrects them
The Father chooses them, the Son gets bruised for them
The Spirit renews them and produces fruit in them
Everybody’s not elect, the Father decides
And it’s only the elect in whom the Spirit resides
The Father and the Spirit- completely unified
But when it comes to Christ and those in hell?
Well, they be saying:
Verse 3
My third and final verse- here’s the situation
Just a couple more things for your consideration
If saving everybody was why Christ came in history
With so many in hell, we’d have to say He failed miserably
So many think He only came to make it possible
Let’s follow this solution to a conclusion that’s logical
What about those who were already in the grave?
The Old Testament wicked- condemned as depraved
Did He die for them? C’mon, behave
But worst of all, you’re saying the cross by itself doesn’t save
That we must do something to give the cross its power
That means, at the end of the day, the glory’s ours
That man-centered thinking is not recommended
The cross will save all for whom it was intended
Because for the elect, God’s wrath was satisfied
But still, when it comes to those in hell
Well, they be saying:
Lord knows He tried (8x)
SovereignGrace
Certified Flunky
All this boils down to is at least God tried, right? Whew! God’s vindicated! He tried! Hallelujah! He tried but they didn’t hold to their end of the deal, right? Right?!?! Riiiiiiiiiiiight!
If God doesn't want the wicked to die, then why would He so arrange things that this is of necessity what happens, and actually because God makes sure it happens. Doesn't that sound conflicted to you?
I don't want the wicked to die, so I will make absolutely certain that at least some of them have NO Way to avoid it.
Much love!
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