Saved Or Predestined ???

[Tong2020]

Anyone can become "of Israel" Jew or Gentile alike. So, God's people has now been revealed as being all peoples on the earth who respond to his call.

Are you now really abandoning your argument using 2 Chronicles 7:14 ? You are now way out of context. I think your argument there had nothing to do with my point that in 2 Chronicles 7:14, God was addressing and talking about "My people", and not all of mankind, exposing the misuse of 2 Chronicles 7:14.

Tong
R0256

 

[Tong2020]

This is the order given in scripture over and over again, but the Calvinists always try to reverse it and say you have to be regenerated in order to be regenerated. Guess you all think we have to be saved twice.

I would agree that that is the order of scriptures according to you, and not according to scriptures.

I don't know what the Calvinist try to do or what they believe about that. Should you not take your case to them and not to me? Unless you can prove that I say as you said they say that you have to be regenerated in order to be regenerated. Does that even make sense? Else, you don't get to put that on me, right?

You said "Guess you all think we have to be saved twice." Who thinks that? Not me for certain. What I say is that one must be born again (or born twice, if I may put it that way) to see and enter the kingdom of God.

Speaking of saved twice, did I get you wrong that you believe that you can be unsaved? If so, can you be saved again after you were unsaved?

Tong
R0257

 

[Tong2020]

Really? You want me to believe Jesus wasn't talking to the people he was talking to? See how absurd it gets when you start down this road of some being chosen for salvation?
I can prove you wrong with just a couple verses:
"Jesus used this figure of speech, but the Pharisees did not understand what he was telling them.

7 Therefore Jesus said again, “Very truly I tell you, I am the gate for the sheep."

Why did he tell them he was the gate? Because they didn't understand,so he spelled it out for them! He gave them every chance to come to him. If they didn't, it wasn't because he irresistibly consigned them to damnation, but because they refused to hear.

No, I don't want you to believe that, because that is not what I was telling you. It was typical of Jesus to speak to the people in parables or figures of speech. He was talking to them, yet as though He was not. Would you say it absurd that Jesus talks to them in such manner that they don't get to understand? I won't, because scriptures explained why. He could just have talked to them in plain words and statements, but He did not, and instead talked to them in parables or metaphors or figures of speech. The reason is obvious, don't you agree? Jesus just went and did what He was commanded by the Father to do, in His humanity.

Further, no matter how Jesus would explain it to them who are not His sheep, they will not be able to understand.

Tong
R0258

 

[Tong2020]

We are all lost unless or until we respond to his call and become found. There's no respecting of persons with God.

No sir. There was a point in the plan of God, after He had poured out His wrath to mankind at the days of Noah, that there came the point where He chose Abraham, and gave promise. That out of Abraham, He would create a people for Himself, that is, the Israel of God. Not going into much of this, my point is that, while all of mankind are sinners and could be said to be lost, God had chosen for Him a people, whom He calls His sheep, and He is their Shepherd. So, as all might be said as lost, not all are the lost sheep of God.

Tong
R0259

 

[Renniks]

If you do those things, yet believe, teach and preach that one will only be saved when he is circumcised in the flesh, and shall have perfectly kept the law of Moses, will you be saved?

If you did that, you would not be believing in the Christ of scripture...so you would not be doing what the verse said.

 

[Renniks]

If you do those things, yet believe, teach and preach that Jesus Christ is not Deity and is only man, will you be saved?

If you do those things, yet does not repent of your sins and so live a sinful life, will you be saved?

If you did the first one, you would not really be doing what the verse said.

If you truly believe in your heart that Christ is who he says he is, repentance will naturally follow... We all live sinful lives to some degree however.

 

[Renniks]

I know nothing special in me then sir, but now I'd say I am special because of Jesus Christ who is in me. Don't you want me to be among the chosen? If you have any objection, ask God, who had chosen, not me.

You say "The fact is, you can't know if you are chosen or not if God is just picking some for his team and rejecting others for no discernable reason." Why not sir? Well, the apostles, in scriptures, tells us that the Christians (of course only meaning to refer to the true ones) were a chosen people. Are you not a Christian? I believe you are, and so you are among the chosen.

You are so disturbed and offended by your thought that God is just picking some for his team and rejecting others for no discernable reason. And I did not even say that. What I said is that God is wise. His thoughts are in no comparison with ours. Man's thoughts of what God should not do or should do, could not be made a basis of the righteousness, justice, and wisdom of God. Scriptures must be the basis. If scriptures says God, by grace, had chosen a people to be His people, we should believe that to speak of His righteousness, justice, and wisdom, among others. Let me remind you of what God said to Moses, "I will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.". Also, let me remind you what Paul said concerning this that God said to Moses.

Romans 9: 15 For He says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion.” 16 So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to the Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth.” 18 Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens.

19 You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?” 20 But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, “Why have you made me like this?” 21 Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?

Tong
R0254

The verses you quote are there to explain how God worked out the plan of salvation, in spite of man's rebellion. They are not about individual election. Notice that the objector asks who resists God's will? The answer is: everyone does. The point here is that God brought about salvation for the gentiles in spite of his own people's rebellion. The objector is obviously a hardened Jew. Read the beginning of Romans chapter 3 for a parallel passage, that shows this more clearly. The clay is Israel, and God is saying that he has the right to work through even thier rebellion. Honor and dishonor does not equal saved and rejected.

 

[Renniks]

You are so disturbed and offended by your thought that God is just picking some for his team and rejecting others for no discernable reason.

I'm not disturbed and offended at God. God does pick certain people throughout the Bible for certain jobs. Does he pick them because of something he sees within them? It sure seems that way. But, even then it's not necessarily because they are better people, IMO. God picked Isaac over Esau. Why? I can only assume because of Esau's rather brash, impulsive nature. God needed a schemer, not a brawler. But then he picked Sampson when he needed a brawler. So yes, God picks people, but not for salvation. That would make it impossible for God to blame sinners for rejecting him, but God does just that.

What more could have been done for my vineyard than I have done for it? When I looked for good grapes, why did it yield only bad? Isaiah 5:4

 

[Renniks]

Many are called but few are chosen. That was a statement in parable. It was also used in Mt. 20:16, in parable. Perhaps you can also tell us what you understand of it in that verse. Do they mean the same thing?

You mean:
16 “So the last will be first, and the first will be last.”?
Because that is what the verse says. This is about God being just as generous with the one who only serves him for a short time. I'm not sure how that relates? Those who believe are the chosen ones.

 

[Renniks]

Are you now really abandoning your argument using 2 Chronicles 7:14 ? You are now way out of context. I think your argument there had nothing to do with my point that in 2 Chronicles 7:14, God was addressing and talking about "My people", and not all of mankind, exposing the misuse of 2 Chronicles 7:14.

Tong
R0256

Yes, in context this verse refers to physical Israel in their physical land. But we are now Israel too. It still applies in the sense of showing us what God requires of us for healing of the spiritual nature also.

 

[Renniks]

What I say is that one must be born again (or born twice, if I may put it that way) to see and enter the kingdom of God.

And that only happens after we believe. Of course the term "born-again" is metaphorical. We become born again by grace through faith and if we lose faith we are no longer born again. Does God give people second chances? Yes, I've seen it happen.

 

[Renniks]

Further, no matter how Jesus would explain it to them who are not His sheep, they will not be able to understand.

They weren't his sheep...they were "Not of God” [in John 8] this means that these Jews were not in right covenant relationship with the Father when they encountered Christ and His claims. Since they didn’t know the Father they naturally would not recognize the perfect expression of the Father in the Son, nor would they recognize the Father’s teaching in the Son’s words (John 8:19, 20, 42, 54, 55, cf. John 5:37-40; 7:16, 17 12:44, 45). As long as they reject the Father and refuse His teaching, they will reject the Son and His teaching (which is also the Father’s teaching, John 12:49, 50) and will not be given to the Son (John 6:37, 44, 45).

None of these passages say anything about an unconditional eternal election being behind the description of these Jews as “not of God.”

Their inability to hear was not because God wasn’t working, but because they were resisting that working. Clearly, Jesus is still trying to reach them (8:27-31, 36, cf. John 5:44; 10:37, 38), which would be senseless if He viewed them as hopeless reprobates.

Look at Christ’s statement to the same sort of resistant Jews in John 5 where Christ both declares their inability and yet tells them, “…not that I accept human testimony, but I mention it that you may be saved”, vs. 34.

 

[Tong2020]

If you did that, you would not be believing in the Christ of scripture...so you would not be doing what the verse said.

And yet, there are believers in Jesus Christ who did that. They confess Jesus Christ and believe that he resurrected back to life (Rom. 10:9) and believe, teach and preach that one must be circumcised in the flesh, and to keep the law of Moses, in order to be saved, like those who belong to the church in Jerusalem.

Tong
R0260

 

[Tong2020]

If you did the first one, you would not really be doing what the verse said.

If you truly believe in your heart that Christ is who he says he is, repentance will naturally follow... We all live sinful lives to some degree however.

And yet many confess the Lord Jesus and believe in their heart that He resurrected back to life (Rom. 10:9), who believe and teach and preach that Jesus Christ is not Deity.

And yet there are those who confess the Lord Jesus and believe in their heart that He resurrected back to life (Rom. 10:9), who really did not repent of their sins and so live a sinful life.

So, if you make out those two things mentioned in Romans 10:9 as the order of salvation and the requirement of salvation, you don't get to stop there, but have to take other things such as repenting, believing in Jesus Christ, His Deity, being baptized, that Jesus was born of the virgin Mary in Bethlehem at the time of Pontius Pilate, had committed no sin, had performed signs, wonders, miracles, healed the sick, cast out demons, was falsely charged of blasphemy by the Jews, suffered and died by crucifixion, appeared to many, ascended back to heaven above, do good works, keep the commandments of God, do no sin, etc. etc., as requirements as well.

Tong
R0261

 

[Renniks]

So, if you make out those two things mentioned in Romans 10:9 as the order of salvation and the requirement of salvation, you don't get to stop there, but have to take other things such as repenting, believing in Jesus Christ, His Deity, being baptized, that Jesus was born of the virgin Mary in Bethlehem at the time of Pontius Pilate, had committed no sin, had performed signs, wonders, miracles, healed the sick, cast out demons, was falsely charged of blasphemy by the Jews, suffered and died by crucifixion, appeared to many, ascended back to heaven above, do good works, keep the commandments of God, do no sin, etc. etc., as requirements as well

You are complicating salvation. Those things do not save a person. And it's beside the point for this discussion. By order I mean belief comes first, then salvation. Whether you have to believe specifically in Christ's deity is a different discussion. Whether you repent at this time is another discussion. The whole point is belief first, not what is required after initial salvation.

 

[Tong2020]

The verses you quote are there to explain how God worked out the plan of salvation, in spite of man's rebellion. They are not about individual election. Notice that the objector asks who resists God's will? The answer is: everyone does. The point here is that God brought about salvation for the gentiles in spite of his own people's rebellion. The objector is obviously a hardened Jew. Read the beginning of Romans chapter 3 for a parallel passage, that shows this more clearly. The clay is Israel, and God is saying that he has the right to work through even thier rebellion. Honor and dishonor does not equal saved and rejected.

No sir, it is far from what you say it explains. The passage I quoted, that is, Romans 9:15-21, as I said talks about what God said to Moses quoted by Paul in verse 15. Paul tells us of God's sovereignty over His creation, including mankind. That God can rightfully make some people as vessels of honor and some as vessels of dishonor (v.21), or some as vessels of mercy, and some as vessels of wrath prepared for destruction (v.22). The passage also tells us that mercy and compassion does not depend on "him who wills, nor of him who runs", referring to the man, but of God (v.16). And Paul, anticipating the question from his readers, raised the question "Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?". This questions are actually rhetorical. They are actually presenting the argument that if God can do as He wills to do to man, such as that in the cases of those whom Paul mentioned, that is, of Jacob, Esau, and Pharaoh, then God should not be finding fault from anyone since none could resist what He wills to do to man. If He makes him a vessel of wrath, like Pharaoh here, then that man surely will be sinful. So why find fault when no one can resist God's sovereign will?

Now, your answer to that argument is that everyone resists God's will, directly opposite to the argument presented by Paul, and totally different from Paul's answer to that. Here's Paul's answer "But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, “Why have you made me like this?” 21 Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?"(vs.20-21).

Now, try to chew the passage below and feed on it.

Romans 9:11 (for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls), 12 it was said to her, “The older shall serve the younger.” 13 As it is written, “Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated.”

Ask yourself, what does "that the purpose of God according to election might stand" mean? What was Paul meaning to say in that passage?

You said "The clay is Israel,...." No sir, the clay is not Israel. It's Israel and the rest of mankind. You may want to consider reading verses 17 & 23-24.

You said "Honor and dishonor does not equal saved and rejected." How about wrath and mercy, what do you say of them?

Tong
R0262

 

[Renniks]

Now, your answer to that argument is that everyone resists God's will, directly opposite to the argument presented by Paul, and totally different from Paul's answer to that. Here's Paul's answer "But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, “Why have you made me like this?” 21

Tong, sir, you have regrettably swallowed the calvinist interpretation Hook line & sinker.
Don't you see that Paul's answer to the mystery objector confirms that we all resist God? How can a man talk back to God otherwise? This objector is the same one who in chapter 3 says we should sin more so that grace may abound more. His condemnation is just. Why? Precisely because he doesn't follow God's will for himself.
The objector talks like a calvinist. " I'm just doing what I was destined to do. " Or " Who can resist God's will?" Same argument.

 

[Tong2020]

I'm not disturbed and offended at God. God does pick certain people throughout the Bible for certain jobs. Does he pick them because of something he sees within them? It sure seems that way. But, even then it's not necessarily because they are better people, IMO. God picked Isaac over Esau. Why? I can only assume because of Esau's rather brash, impulsive nature. God needed a schemer, not a brawler. But then he picked Sampson when he needed a brawler. So yes, God picks people, but not for salvation. That would make it impossible for God to blame sinners for rejecting him, but God does just that.

What more could have been done for my vineyard than I have done for it? When I looked for good grapes, why did it yield only bad? Isaiah 5:4

Let me quote the full paragraph where you took that quote, so that the readers would see the context of my statement that you quoted and replied to.

You are so disturbed and offended by your thought that God is just picking some for his team and rejecting others for no discernable reason. And I did not even say that. What I said is that God is wise. His thoughts are in no comparison with ours. Man's thoughts of what God should not do or should do, could not be made a basis of the righteousness, justice, and wisdom of God. Scriptures must be the basis. If scriptures says God, by grace, had chosen a people to be His people, we should believe that to speak of His righteousness, justice, and wisdom, among others. Let me remind you of what God said to Moses, "I will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.". Also, let me remind you what Paul said concerning this that God said to Moses.

You said "Does he pick them because of something he sees within them? It sure seems that way." Try to consider what these verses say to the contrary:

Romans 9:11 (for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls)

Romans 9:16 So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy.

You said "God picked Isaac over Esau." No sir. This is what is written to be exact "Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated."

You said "Why? I can only assume because of Esau's rather brash, impulsive nature." No need to assume sir. As I just quoted above "Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated." and Paul had made clear about God's election that it is not based on works of them, saying "the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil". See verse 11 above.

You said "So yes, God picks people, but not for salvation." And why not? Does scriptures tells you that? Please cite scriptures that at least effectively says that God does not elect people for salvation.

Did God not chose Noah and even 7 others of His family for salvation? Did God not chose Abram for salvation? Did God not chose Isaac for salvation? Did God not chose Israel for salvation? Did God not chose a people from among the peoples of the earth for salvation? Do you not belong to God's chosen people whom Jesus died for and saved?

What is your point in quoting Isaiah 5:4?

Tong
R0263

 

[Renniks]

Now, try to chew the passage below and feed on it.

Romans 9:11 (for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls), 12 it was said to her, “The older shall serve the younger.” 13 As it is written, “Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated.”

Ask yourself, what does "that the purpose of God according to election might stand" mean? What was Paul meaning to say in that passage?

To understand Paul's whole argument here, it will help immensely if you were to look up all the Old Testament passages Paul alludes to. In this case:

Malachi 1;3“Was not Esau Jacob’s brother?” declares the Lord. “Yet I have loved Jacob, 3 but Esau I have hated, and I have turned his hill country into a wasteland and left his inheritance to the desert jackals.”

4 Edom may say, “Though we have been crushed, we will rebuild the ruins.”

But this is what the Lord Almighty says: “They may build, but I will demolish. They will be called the Wicked Land, a people always under the wrath of the Lord. 5 You will see it with your own eyes and say, ‘Great is the Lord—even beyond the borders of Israel!’

We see here that this reference of loving one and hating the other is not directed to the twins, but to the two nations... God chose Issac to be the head of Israel and Esau to be the head of Edom.

Also, see Genesis 25
22But the children inside her struggled with each other, and she said, “Why is this happening to me?” So Rebekah went to inquire of the LORD, 23and He declared to her: “Two nations are in your womb, and two peoples from within you will be separated; one people will be stronger than the other, and the older will serve the younger.” 24When her time came to give birth, there were indeed twins in her womb.…
Now, as for the twins, the older never did serve the younger, so again, this was a reference to the two nations, not to the babies.
So now, we come to the Romans verse:
Romans 9:11 (for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls), 12 it was said to her, “The older shall serve the younger.” 13 As it is written, “Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated.”

As I said before, this is all about God bringing about the plan of salvation through Israel. It's not about individuals chosen for salvation. We don't know if Esau was ultimately a believer or not. God's purpose and election here is that Israel was chosen as the nation that would give birth to the Messiah and Edom wasn't.

 

[Renniks]

You said "The clay is Israel,...." No sir, the clay is not Israel. It's Israel and the rest of mankind. You may want to consider reading verses 17 & 23-24.

The clay is Israel. Again, look at what Paul was quoting from: Jeremiah 18;

Jeremiah 18
1
This is the word that came to Jeremiah from the LORD:
2
"Go down to the potter's house, and there I will give you my message."
3
So I went down to the potter's house, and I saw him working at the wheel.
4
But the pot he was shaping from the clay was marred in his hands; so the potter formed it into another pot, shaping it as seemed best to him.
5
Then the word of the LORD came to me:
6
"O house of Israel, can I not do with you as this potter does?" declares the LORD. "Like clay in the hand of the potter, so are you in my hand, O house of Israel.
7
If at any time I announce that a nation or kingdom is to be uprooted, torn down and destroyed,
8
and if that nation I warned repents of its evil, then I will relent and not inflict on it the disaster I had planned.
9
And if at another time I announce that a nation or kingdom is to be built up and planted,
10
and if it does evil in my sight and does not obey me, then I will reconsider the good I had intended to do for it.

We see here that God isn't locked into one plan for Isreal, but he reserves the right to change his mind depending on what his chosen nation does.

Isaiah writes, “Woe to the one who quarrels with his Maker—An earthenware vessel among the vessels of earth! Will the clay say to the potter, ‘What are you doing?’ Or the thing you are making say, ‘He has no hands’?” (Isa. 45:9) In this section of Isaiah, the Jews were surprised to hear God call the Persian King Cyrus his “anointed one” (Isa. 44:28-45:1) God tells Israel that he can choose to work through whomever he wants—even a Gentile. Paul’s reference to these OT passages continues to support the idea that God can save Gentiles to be his servants—regardless of their race or their righteousness.
Paul’s use of this illustration in 2 Timothy shows that we are not divinely determined to be one type of clay or the other. Elsewhere, Paul writes, “In a large house there are not only gold and silver vessels, but also vessels of wood and of earthenware, and some to honor and some to dishonor. Therefore, if anyone cleanses himself from these things, he will be a vessel for honor, sanctified, useful to the Master, prepared for every good work” (2 Tim. 2:20-21). Notice that the individual can choose to change whether or not he will be an honorable or dishonorable servant (“if anyone cleanses himself… he will be a vessel for honor”).
Paul’s reference to these OT passages continues to support the idea that God can save Gentiles to be his servants—regardless of their race or their righteousness.

Of course, you can go with your interpretation and say that God just makes puppets or forms some people to be evil and some to be good with no freedom to choose, but if you go that route, I hope you have the honesty to admit that what you are embracing is fatalism.