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quietthinker

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No one keeps the letter of the law (Galatians 6:13, Galatians 3:22, Romans 3:23).

If you can testify that you wear tzizit and tallit and tefilin; and/or blow a trumpet on every new moon; then I will believe that perhaps you are complicit in obeying the letter of the law; while there are some 609 more commandments in the OT that are not yet taken into account.

Do I deceive myself by the understanding that I am not saved through keeping the law? For it is a biblical understanding (see Galatians 2:16, Romans 3:20).

If anyone is going to be saved through keeping the law, they must keep it perfectly from conception into eternity (Galatians 3:10, James 2:10, Matthew 5:48).

But Paul wrote to us under the inspiration of the Holy Ghost, that we are delivered from the law so that we are no longer bound by the letter but are obedient to the spirit of what is written (Romans 7:6).

I agree that this is according to the letter for the most part.

However, in certain cases (such as if I were told by the Lord to heal someone on the sabbath by telling them to take up their bed and walk; in which case I would be violating the letter of the sabbath), the spirit of the law supersedes the letter. It would be love to do what I mentioned in (); but it would also be a violation of the letter of the sabbath.

And Jesus is our example of this in John chapter 5.
Further confusion....not being able to differentiate between ceremonial laws, health laws, cultural laws......mixing it all up with the law of the Ten Commandments.......and for what purpose?..... isn't it to excuse obligation to the Ten? .....isn't the objective to mix it all in so as not to be able to see the forest for the trees?

Do you want to poo hoo the speed sign in the desert so you can violate your moral obligation of not coveting or remembering the Sabbath etc.......because it comes under the banner of Law?

Sort it out jbf and know that faith in Jesus is not a license to excuse your obligation to the 10.
 

mjrhealth

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Rom 10:13, For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
Rom 10:14, How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
Rom 10:15, And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!

2Ti 4:2, Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.
YEs but who is doing the sending??? Bible college, study, certificates account for nothing in Gods kingdom, we are supposed to lead people to Christ so they can have Him for them selves, but religion and men wont do that. for without people religion is nothing. and men have no position.

20 If then you died with Christ from the elements of the world, why, as though living inthe world, are you subject to its ordinances: 21 touch not, taste not, handle not; 22 which things are all for corruption in the using, according to the commands and doctrines of men? 23 These things indeed have a reputation of wisdom in self-imposed worship and humility, and unsparing severity the body, not in any honor for the satisfying of the flesh.
 

mjrhealth

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Further confusion....not being able to differentiate between ceremonial laws, health laws, cultural laws......mixing it all up with the law of the Ten Commandments.......and for what purpose?..... isn't it to excuse obligation to the Ten? .....isn't the objective to mix it all in so as not to be able to see the forest for the trees?

Do you want to poo hoo the speed sign in the desert so you can violate your moral obligation of not coveting or remembering the Sabbath etc.......because it comes under the banner of Law?

Sort it out jbf and know that faith in Jesus is not a license to excuse your obligation to the 10.
You obligation not ours. Something to do with,

[MKJV] Mark 11:22
And answering Jesus said to them, Have faith of God.
 

justbyfaith

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Further confusion....not being able to differentiate between ceremonial laws, health laws, cultural laws......mixing it all up with the law of the Ten Commandments.......and for what purpose?..... isn't it to excuse obligation to the Ten? .....isn't the objective to mix it all in so as not to be able to see the forest for the trees?

Read Matthew 5:17-20. If I am great in the kingdom then I teach obedience to all 613 commandments; not just the ten.

Of course no one can keep the letter of all 613 (Galatians 6:13...coincidence?).

But for those who are going to try to enter in by keeping the law, absolute perfection (keeping the entire law) from conception into eternity is what is required (Galatians 3:10, James 2:10, Matthew 5:48).

Bottom line.
 
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justbyfaith

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Be it known that all who willingly violate any of the 10 because it suits their disposition are deemed as foolish virgins with no oil.
Not quite...

Rom 3:20, Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
Rom 3:21, But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
Rom 3:22, Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
Rom 3:23, For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
Rom 3:24, Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

Gal 2:16, Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
 
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mjrhealth

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Be it known that all who willingly violate any of the 10 because it suits their disposition are deemed as foolish virgins with no oil.
Yes I know men love to boast, "look at me God im not like all those other sinners", yes we see who is justified dont we. But you like so many will not give up religion for Christ or truth. Since religion like teh LAw is all about self and teh flesh
 

justbyfaith

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because it suits their disposition
I can see your point in that you qualified your statement by this.

If anyone is born again by faith in Jesus Christ, they are a new creature in Christ; and it is not in their disposition to be disobedient to the Lord.
 

quietthinker

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Yes I know men love to boast, "look at me God im not like all those other sinners", yes we see who is justified dont we. But you like so many will not give up religion for Christ or truth. Since religion like teh LAw is all about self and teh flesh
Do you think that God will accept your statement above as a good reason to dismiss his Commandments?

Why do I take issue with this?......because 'love' is interpreted according to how one feels.....and ones feelings can be as fickle as the weather.
What is necessary are specifics....things we can hang our hat on......thus we have the Ten......the brief comprehensive ten words of God defining love to himself and to others.

Without this definition love for the fallen race becomes a wishy washy sentimental self gratifying shifting emotion with no principle. Living in this space the mouth talks much about love while its reality is denied by ones actions.

God forbid that one actually pins thoughts and behaviour down to Law......thats getting too close to home......much easier to live in denial when Law is dismissed as not relevant......much easier to talk about 'love' till the cows come home even croon about it like any or many secular versions......as if one knows what they're talking or in this case, singing about!

Jesus lived by love....he obeyed the Law......and if it hasn't been heard before, the Law is a transcript of Gods character.......Jesus was/is the image of the invisible God......now why would anyone be opposed to that?......probably because it points out sin that desires to be hidden......desires to be denied......even loves rebellion.....all the while the mouth sprouting 'love love love' .
 

justbyfaith

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Jesus lived by love....he obeyed the Law......

He obeyed the spirit of the law...He violated the letter (John 5:18).

Jesus came as High Priest according to the order of Melchizedec...and with a change in priesthood came also a change in law (Hebrews 7:12) from letter to spirit (Romans 7:6).
 

2 Chr. 34:19

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When I hear (which is often) people say ‘nobody is, or can be perfect’ I always think ‘do you know everybody?’
I know a lot of Church folk, but knowing them personally is another matter, (outside of ‘social’ fellowship) :(
I’ve only met a few Christians outside of the uk, and didn’t get time to know them very well...never say never-with The Lord, all things are possible
 

mjrhealth

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Why do I take issue with this?
I dont care one Iota if you have issues with this, take it up with your religious leaders let them deal with it, after all it is your religion you must be obedient too, or cast out.

As for Love, if you knew love you would run from the law, because God is love . the law is death and death is not from God. All the law does and ever will do is Kill people, Christ is life, Christ is Love like God our father, it is you who chooses to be obedient by your religion and the flesh instead of faith,

The law is not of faith, and since you choose your religion and its doctrines above God and Christ they your religion and its doctrines, will always be first and HE will always be second, religious men always ran from Christ,
We have one Shepherd His name is Jesus.
 

justbyfaith

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Most certainly, the law has been given as a schoolmaster to lead men to Christ (Galatians 3:24, Romans 3:20, Psalms 19:7 (kjv)).
 

mjrhealth

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Most certainly, the law has been given as a schoolmaster to lead men to Christ (Galatians 3:24, Romans 3:20, Psalms 19:7 (kjv)).
No it isnt, the law was the schoolmaster to the Jews, with all your studies and things in context and you dont get it. It is Christ who drwas men to Himself, even though many still refuse Him, even christians.
 

Cristo Rei

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A Christian should NEVER think of themselves as a 'sinner".

"as a person thinks in their Heart, so are they"...

So, if you are born again, you are not a "sinner

So u claim to be as righteous as God, free of sin and all evil temptations...

You never feel any lust.
You never feel any pride in yourself or family.
You never feel any anger, not even towards Satan.
You never feel any hatred.
You never have any greed.
You never have any envy
You don't engage in dissensions, discord or gossip
You have no selfish ambitions so u don't work.
The love of money is a root of much evil, so u don't have any money saved up

So you will approach God on the day of judgement with you head held high claiming to be as righteous as He. For your sake i hope you are right.
I also hope that you would give it more thought and consider why your view is a minority instead of declaring everyone else to be wrong.
Why centuries of educated theologians are not in agreement with your view.
I hope you can deflate that sense of pride and truly examine yourself.

If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word is not in us. 1 John :8-10

On one extreme there are people who continue to sin with the expectation that they will be forgiven.
On the other extreme there are people who believe they have a righteous superiority that is only matched by God Himself.

As for being born again, does it say that it involves some epiphany?
Does it tell us that we are saved at the moment we are born again?

If anything the third chapter of Johns Gospel is about baptizing.

We will all face Gods judgement one day where we will be judged on what we have done...
Only then are we saved...

May the Lords mercy and grace be with you
 
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quietthinker

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He obeyed the spirit of the law...He violated the letter (John 5:18).

Jesus came as High Priest according to the order of Melchizedec...and with a change in priesthood came also a change in law (Hebrews 7:12) from letter to spirit (Romans 7:6).
I'm sorry jbf, either you don't understand what those texts speak of or you are taking them out of their context to justify your position.
 

quietthinker

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I dont care one Iota if you have issues with this, take it up with your religious leaders let them deal with it, after all it is your religion you must be obedient too, or cast out.

As for Love, if you knew love you would run from the law, because God is love . the law is death and death is not from God. All the law does and ever will do is Kill people, Christ is life, Christ is Love like God our father, it is you who chooses to be obedient by your religion and the flesh instead of faith,

The law is not of faith, and since you choose your religion and its doctrines above God and Christ they your religion and its doctrines, will always be first and HE will always be second, religious men always ran from Christ,
We have one Shepherd His name is Jesus.
Which of the ten do you object to mjrh?.....which do you find contrary to your inclinations?

Perhaps you have never read Psalm 119 where David praises God's Law.....It appears you cannot talk in the same terms as he does because as you say the Law is death to you. Of course you would run from it but have you considered it is your sin that the Law condemns? ..... that's why it's death to you.

Here are a few verses from Psalm 119 which has incidentally, 176 verses

97Oh, how I love Your law!
It is my meditation all the day.
98You, through Your commandments, make me wiser than my enemies;
For they are ever with me.
99I have more understanding than all my teachers,
For Your testimonies are my meditation.
100I understand more than the [q]ancients,
Because I keep Your precepts.
101I have restrained my feet from every evil way,
That I may keep Your word.
102I have not departed from Your judgments,
For You Yourself have taught me.
103How sweet are Your words to my taste,
Sweeter than honey to my mouth!
104Through Your precepts I get understanding;
Therefore I hate every false way.

The law is death to you because you are out of line and have no power to keep it.....You have no power to keep it because you're barking up the wrong tree.
All who love God love his Law. All who hate God hate his Law.

You do not understand that the condemnation of Jesus was because he took upon himself the consequences of a broken Law on our behalf. Because of this you can have no appreciation of the infinitely high cost to redeem us. Instead you blame the Law and by blaming the Law you blame God......you attempt to judge God in the similitude of Satan and by doing so you show who you pay allegiance to under a cloak of so called piety.

Instead of acknowledging your sin you blame the Law. That is Satans position also. That is why he does everything in his power to put it down, twist it and get rid of it.....I'd say you agree with him.
 

justbyfaith

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No it isn't, the law was the schoolmaster to the Jews, with all your studies and things in context and you don't get it. It is Christ who draws men to Himself, even though many still refuse Him, even Christians.

Gal 3:23, But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.

This "we" is speaking of all of us who have been redeemed through faith in Jesus Christ. Before faith came, we were kept under the law. This "we" is referring to Jew and Gentile alike. For those who are redeemed by faith come from both camps of both Jew and Gentile.

Rom 3:19, Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
Rom 3:20, Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.


The law says what it says to those who are under it; and the result is that all the world will become guilty before God. This indicates to me that all the world is under the law; otherwise the law would not make all the world guilty before God; it would only make the Jewish people guilty before God; if the law were only applicable to the Jewish people.

To @Cristo Rei,

So u claim to be as righteous as God, free of sin and all evil temptations...

You never feel any lust.
You never feel any pride in yourself or family.
You never feel any anger, not even towards Satan.
You never feel any hatred.
You never have any greed.
You never have any envy
You don't engage in dissensions, discord or gossip
You have no selfish ambitions so u don't work.
The love of money is a root of much evil, so u don't have any money saved up

So you will approach God on the day of judgement with you head held high claiming to be as righteous as He. For your sake i hope you are right.
I also hope that you would give it more thought and consider why your view is a minority instead of declaring everyone else to be wrong.
Why centuries of educated theologians are not in agreement with your view.
I hope you can deflate that sense of pride and truly examine yourself.

If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word is not in us. 1 John :8-10

On one extreme there are people who continue to sin with the expectation that they will be forgiven.
On the other extreme there are people who believe they have a righteous superiority that is only matched by God Himself.

As for being born again, does it say that it involves some epiphany?
Does it tell us that we are saved at the moment we are born again?

If anything the third chapter of Johns Gospel is about baptizing.

We will all face Gods judgement one day where we will be judged on what we have done...
Only then are we saved...

May the Lords mercy and grace be with you

I believe that 1 John 3:7 speaks to your contention.
 
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justbyfaith

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I'm sorry jbf, either you don't understand what those texts speak of or you are taking them out of their context to justify your position.

I got my position from reading the texts. I did not come to my conclusions through eisegesis.

Consider:

Exo 20:10, But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:

Jhn 5:16, And therefore did the Jews persecute Jesus, and sought to slay him, because he had done these things on the sabbath day.
Jhn 5:17, But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, and I work.
Jhn 5:18, Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.
 

justbyfaith

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The law is death to you because you are out of line and have no power to keep it.....You have no power to keep it because you're barking up the wrong tree.
Even those who are sticklers for the law don't keep it....Galatians 6:13.