A Christian who deny Jesus is God in Flesh

[justbyfaith]

i understand your point contradicts itself. a cat can not be a dog if its a cat now can it

If there is one dog out of all dogs that is colored red, it is the same as the understanding that Jesus is God and that other men are not.

God is a Spirit and men are made of flesh...

therefore the dog/cat analogy does not hold up.

 

[jaybird]

I understand then why you don't want to read my thread...you are afraid that you might be convinced of the doctrine of the Trinity...and because you think it is evil you believe that in that you would be being deceived.

However, if I have shown from the Bible that the Trinity is true and faithful doctrine, I think you should at least consider that it might be true and faithful doctrine.

Read posts #1-#6 of the following thread:

True Trinity.

a true and faithful doctrine does not lead to people being burned alive. thats not the way of Jesus.

 

[jaybird]

If there is one dog out of all dogs that is colored red, it is the same as the understanding that Jesus is God and that other men are not.

God is a Spirit and men are made of flesh...

therefore the dog/cat analogy does not hold up.

Jesus is the Most High, different than any other man on the planet.
Jesus is a man, just like all other men on the planet.

how do you get yourself to buy into this? you know what a contradiction is right?

 

[justbyfaith]

Jesus is the Most High, different than any other man on the planet.
Jesus is a man, just like all other men on the planet.

how do you get yourself to buy into this? you know what a contradiction is right?

My dog is red, different than every other dog on the planet (I am using a hypothetical situation that my dog is the only red dog).

My dog is a dog, just like every other dog on the planet.

 

[justbyfaith]

a true and faithful doctrine does not lead to people being burned alive. thats not the way of Jesus.

That people were burned alive for rejecting the doctrine of the Trinity, does not, in itself, make the doctrine of the Trinity untrue.

It just means that certain adherents of the doctrine were not born again of the Holy Spirit.

This does not mean that one must not adhere to the doctrine in order to be born again of the Holy Spirit.

As with the red dog analogy, there are exceptions to every rule.

If you must believe that the doctrine of the Trinity is true in order to be saved, this fact is not necessarily disproven by the fact that some who hold that doctrine were not saved. For the Trinity is not the only qualification. One must receive Jesus as their personal Lord and Saviour.

Some, who are religious, may have sound doctrine in their minds, and be zealous for that doctrine, and yet not be born again.

Because faith is not only a matter of the mind but of the heart.

 

[justbyfaith]

Also, some of these zealous people, who burned people alive for rejecting the doctrine of the Trinity, may have wrongly thought that they were still in the Old Testament, and may have applied Deuteronomy 17:2-7 wrongly (as a principle) because of that.

 

[jaybird]

My dog is red, different than every other dog on the planet (I am using a hypothetical situation that my dog is the only red dog).

My dog is a dog, just like every other dog on the planet.

a red hair man and a brown hair man are both men
a man that is the Most High of the heavens is not the same as other men.

do you go back and forth to the heavens? do you create planets, the stars, etc.

 

[jaybird]

That people were burned alive for rejecting the doctrine of the Trinity, does not, in itself, make the doctrine of the Trinity untrue.

It just means that certain adherents of the doctrine were not born again of the Holy Spirit.

This does not mean that one must not adhere to the doctrine in order to be born again of the Holy Spirit.

As with the red dog analogy, there are exceptions to every rule.

If you must believe that the doctrine of the Trinity is true in order to be saved, this fact is not necessarily disproven by the fact that some who hold that doctrine were not saved. For the Trinity is not the only qualification. One must receive Jesus as their personal Lord and Saviour.

Some, who are religious, may have sound doctrine in their minds, and be zealous for that doctrine, and yet not be born again.

Because faith is not only a matter of the mind but of the heart.

it means the fruits of the trinity are bad fruit. what did Jesus say of bad fruit?

 

[justbyfaith]

it means the fruits of the trinity are bad fruit. what did Jesus say of bad fruit?

The doctrine of the Trinity is not a prophet but a doctrine; and you should be aware that there are those who believe in it who do in fact bear good fruit; so you cannot judge the doctrine based on the fact that some who believed in it (in their minds) did not have real salvation (because they didn't believe it in their hearts; and also, perhaps they did not believe in other doctrines that are essential for salvation).

 

[justbyfaith]

a red hair man and a brown hair man are both men
a man that is the Most High of the heavens is not the same as other men.

do you go back and forth to the heavens? do you create planets, the stars, etc.

Again, you are arguing for the sake of arguing; and I believe that you are grasping at straws.

 

[jaybird]

The doctrine of the Trinity is not a prophet but a doctrine; and you should be aware that there are those who believe in it who do in fact bear good fruit; so you cannot judge the doctrine based on the fact that some who believed in it (in their minds) did not have real salvation (because they didn't believe it in their hearts; and also, perhaps they did not believe in other doctrines that are essential for salvation).

i never said trinitarians are bad people and i would never question their devotion.
i said the doctrine in itself has lead to lots and lots of bad fruit. dissension, killing, crusades and all the rest. thats bad fruit. you cant explain away bad fruit, you cant say all these people were killed but its ok now, thats not how it works, it should have never lead to death and destruction in the first place.

 

[jaybird]

Again, you are arguing for the sake of arguing; and I believe that you are grasping at straws.

im just pointing out the contradiction that you refuse to defend. and asking questions i know you can not answer. saying you have two different color dogs is, well i dont know what that was about, but i guess it makes sense in your "Jesus is a man, but He is not a man" view of everything.

when you throw these ideas out there, that you cant defend, cant answer questions on, and cant explain, does it bother you?

 

[justbyfaith]

i never said trinitarians are bad people and i would never question their devotion.
i said the doctrine in itself has lead to lots and lots of bad fruit. dissension, killing, crusades and all the rest. thats bad fruit. you cant explain away bad fruit, you cant say all these people were killed but its ok now, thats not how it works, it should have never lead to death and destruction in the first place.

You are attributing these things to the doctrine of the Trinity; however you should be attributing these things to the fact that the people who did these things were not born again.

I don't believe that the Crusades were bad fruit; they were a response to Islam in that they treated the Islamic people the way that they were treating them. It was a necessary evil, lest Islam overtake everything and there be no Christianity left in the world.

im just pointing out the contradiction that you refuse to defend.

I believe that I have defended it adequately enough.

 

[jaybird]

You are attributing these things to the doctrine of the Trinity; however you should be attributing these things to the fact that the people who did these things were not born again.

I don't believe that the Crusades were bad fruit; they were a response to Islam in that they treated the Islamic people the way that they were treating them. It was a necessary evil, lest Islam overtake everything and there be no Christianity left in the world.

your shifting blame. the men that invented the trinity are the same ones that were killing.

the crusades in the east had nothing to do with the faith, it had everything to do with the church, the ones you said are lead by Jesus, and their greed for land and conquest. rome were very oppressive rulers, just ask Jesus, the 12 and st Paul. the church lost lots of land to the Muslims, all these kingdoms did not want to be ruled by rome any more, thats why they chose Islam, those people would have rather be ruled by Muslims than the roman Christians.
those were not the only crusades, rome went on many crusades against Christians when those Christians chose to be lead by the spirit rather than their roman overseers.

I believe that I have defended it adequately enough.

you have yet to explain how men create the heavens and earth, how men can go back and forth to the heavens. how do i create a solar system? a galaxy? why can you not answer those question?

 

[TheslightestID]

I'm always one to believe Jesus is the son of God, not God himself, however, I just ran across this, and am not sure what to do with it, and ask that others with similar beliefs to mine, help me out here.

John 8:24, “I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for IF YE BELIEVE NOT THAT I AM HE, YE SHALL DIE IN YOUR SINS.”

 

[jaybird]

I'm always one to believe Jesus is the son of God, not God himself, however, I just ran across this, and am not sure what to do with it, and ask that others with similar beliefs to mine, help me out here.

John 8:24, “I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for IF YE BELIEVE NOT THAT I AM HE, YE SHALL DIE IN YOUR SINS.”

the "he" is not explained in the passage, the pharisees that were standing there didnt know who He meant when He said "he" and they asked "who are you?"
you have to go to other passages to find examples of who Jesus claimed to be. He claimed to be the Christ and the Son of the Most High. in John 4 Jesus and the Samarian women the women said she was waiting on the Christ, Jesus uses the same "I am he" phrase identifying Himself as the Christ.
the end of the book of John says believers will have life in the name of Jesus if the believe Jesus is the Christ and Son of the Most High. it does not mention you must believe Jesus is the Most High.

 

[sho]

the "he" is not explained in the passage, the pharisees that were standing there didnt know who He meant when He said "he" and they asked "who are you?"
you have to go to other passages to find examples of who Jesus claimed to be. He claimed to be the Christ and the Son of the Most High. in John 4 Jesus and the Samarian women the women said she was waiting on the Christ, Jesus uses the same "I am he" phrase identifying Himself as the Christ.
the end of the book of John says believers will have life in the name of Jesus if the believe Jesus is the Christ and Son of the Most High. it does not mention you must believe Jesus is the Most High.

Isaiah 43:10
Ye are my witnesses, saith YAHWEH, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I AM HE. Before me no God was formed, and after me there will be none.

John 18:4-6
Jesus said to them: Whom seek ye? They answered him, Jesus the Nazarene. Jesus said to them: I AM HE. Now when he said to them, I AM HE, they drew back and fell to the ground.

 

[jaybird]

Isaiah 43:10
Ye are my witnesses, saith YAHWEH, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I AM HE. Before me no God was formed, and after me there will be none.

John 18:4-6
Jesus said to them: Whom seek ye? They answered him, Jesus the Nazarene. Jesus said to them: I AM HE. Now when he said to them, I AM HE, they drew back and fell to the ground.

John 4
25The woman said to him, “I know that Messiah is coming (he who is called Christ). When he comes, he will tell us all things.” 26Jesus said to her, “I who speak to you am he.”

 

[sho]

John 4
25The woman said to him, “I know that Messiah is coming (he who is called Christ). When he comes, he will tell us all things.” 26Jesus said to her, “I who speak to you am he.”

So, you wanna say, God is not the Christ?

 

[jaybird]

So, you wanna say, God is not the Christ?

unlike you guys i just go by what scripture says, i dont insert my thoughts and opinions into the scripture. Jesus says He is the Christ.