Biblical Salvation

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Tong2020

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Tong2020 said:
In this case, the word “ordained” in the KJV is significant. It was from the Greek “prographó:” which means “write before”. The NIV renders it better then.
The kjv gives the same meaning as the NIV....written about long ago means the same thing as foreordained. I think also that the kjv gives the more accurate meaning of what is meant by "written about long ago" in the NIV.
Check the Greek word. It’s “prographó”. It does not mean foreordained.

Tong2020 said:
And if one reads the passage carefully, there is nothing there speaking of predestination for condemnation.
I think that it does in fact speak of predestination to condemnation; according to foreknowledge.

But you are right in that God does not predetermine that certain people will go to hell.

And that means that God does not predetermine certain people to go to heaven.

For to do one is to also do the other. If God predetermines certain people for heaven, then He predetermines others for hell; whom He did not choose for heaven. They are chosen for hell by default, in that God did not choose them for heaven.

This is an excellent argument for the case of predestination according to foreknowledge rather than predetermination. Because if they are chosen according to foreknowledge, God is not responsible for their condemnation but they are responsible for it. God simply looked down the annals of history and saw that certain people would preach grace as a license for immorality and predetermined that those who do that would receive condemnation.
<<<But you are right in that God does not predetermine that certain people will go to hell.

And that means that God does not predetermine certain people to go to heaven.>>>

It does not necessarily follow.

Tong
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Tong2020

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Tong2020 said:
Don’t we believe that water turned to wine when scriptures said it turned to wine, even while that is, according to the natural thinking and reasoning, something unacceptable and objectionable? But we believe it, and that we believe it because scriptures said so.

And the message of the cross, according to the thinking and reasoning of men, is it not foolishness? Why do we believe the message of the cross?
Tong, this may sound rough, but I have to address your question directly or I am doing you a disservice, as well as the Lord, and others here who might be reading this.

I find the above two things VERY easy to believe. What I do not find it easy to believe is that the Living God might actually be Satan.

God bless, and I believe you can understand my motivations, even if you might not accept my interpretation of the word of God.

Yours,
H
Why, do you find scriptures saying that God is Satan? If not, then you should not have any problem not believing any one who teaches that.

Tong
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Tong2020

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Tong2020 said:
There is nothing there that speaks of God created people purposely for condemnation.
I would disagree. Which is why I placed the proverbs verse first. It stands that when God predestined whom he would save before the world, and by name, those, as in Proverbs, whom God did not choose are not saved.
Those who were not chosen by God to save will be condemned, not because they were not chosen, nor because God created them for condemnation, but because of their sin.

Now regarding the passage in Proverbs 16:4. It would be a mistake to interpret that as God creating people for condemnation. For God did not create a wicked man, but God created an innocent and sinless Adam.

Tong
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Tong2020

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Tong2020 said:
If not, then you should not have any problem not believing any one who teaches that
That was a triple negative, which is also something I find hard to understand, LoL.
It would be hard if you isolate that from the context.

But for your sake, let me say that another way.

If scriptures does not say that God is Satan, it will be easy for you to not believe any one who says that God is Satan.

Tong
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Hidden In Him

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If scriptures does not say that God is Satan, it will be easy for you to not believe any one who says that God is Satan.

A double negative. Tong, God bless you man. It's not a problem if we disagree, and I wish you the very best regardless.

Have a blessed day in the Lord Jesus Christ, bro. Maybe we'll pick things up the next time around. It's all good.
- H
 

justbyfaith

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Check the Greek word. It’s “prographó”. It does not mean foreordained.

G4270 - prographō - Strong's Greek Lexicon (KJV)

The KJV translates Strong's G4270 in the following manner: write (1x), write aforetime (1x), write afore (1x), evidently set forth (1x), before ordain (1x).
Outline of Biblical Usage G4253 and G1125; to write previously; figuratively, to announce, prescribe:—before ordain, evidently set forth, write (afore, aforetime).
Thayer's Greek Lexicon Romans 15:4a R G L text T Tr WH, 4b Rec.; Ephesians 3:3; οἱ πάλαι προγεγραμμένοι εἰς τοῦτο τό κρίμα, of old set forth or designated beforehand (in the Scriptures of the O. T. and the prophecies of Enoch) unto this condemnation, Jude 1:4.
2. to depict or portray openly (cf. πρό, d. α: οἷς κατ' ὀφθαλμούς Ἰησοῦς Χριστός προεγράφη ἐν ὑμῖν (but ἐν ὑμῖν is dropped by G L T Tr WH) ἐσταυρωμένος, before whose eyes was portrayed the picture of Jesus Christ crucified (the attentive contemplation of which picture ought to have been a preventive against that bewitchment), i. e. who were taught most definitely and plainly concerning the meritorious efficacy of the death of Christ, Galatians 3:1. Since the simple γράφειν is often used of painters, and προγράφειν certainly signifies also to write before the eyes of all who can read (Plutarch, Demetr. 46 at the end, προγραφει τίς αὐτοῦ πρό τῆς σκηνῆς τήν τοῦ Ὀιδιποδος ἀρχήν), I see no reason why προγράφειν may not mean to depict (paint, portray) before the eyes; (R. V. openly set forth). Cf. Hofmann at the passage (Farrar, St. Paul, chapter xxiv., vol. i, 470 note; others adhere to the meaning to placard, write up publicly, see Lightfoot at the passage; others besides; see Meyer).
 
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Amazed@grace

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Those who were not chosen by God to save will be condemned, not because they were not chosen, nor because God created them for condemnation, but because of their sin.

Now regarding the passage in Proverbs 16:4. It would be a mistake to interpret that as God creating people for condemnation. For God did not create a wicked man, but God created an innocent and sinless Adam.

Tong
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One has to ignore an enormous amount of scripture to first believe God's words, only to then rework certain of them that cannot be consolidated unto ones personal belief. And so it is. Denying foreordination, predestination teachings of God I believe is to deny Sovereignty of God. 13 Bible verses about Foreordained Plans
 
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Amazed@grace

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While God does in fact mark out for condemnation from long ago those who teach grace as a license for immorality, and therefore double predestination is a biblical doctrine, I don't think that God is sinful in doing so.

But then, I believe that predestination is according to foreknowledge.

Those who believe that God predetermines everything may have more trouble answering.
How so? Responding to that last part.
 

Amazed@grace

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If that was directed toward my post#279, remember that isn't my thoughts. Those are facts from God in his own words. Why do we think there is the term, election? Do we ignore Isaiah's 42 and verse 1? Arminian teachings do conflict with the facet of God's Sovereignty. Is this community dedicated Arminian? I may have missed that in the statement of beliefs. And this could explain the conflict that has arisen. Well, most of it I'd think and save for the dark threatening persona.
 

Tong2020

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G4270 - prographō - Strong's Greek Lexicon (KJV)

The KJV translates Strong's G4270 in the following manner: write (1x), write aforetime (1x), write afore (1x), evidently set forth (1x), before ordain (1x).
Outline of Biblical Usage G4253 and G1125; to write previously; figuratively, to announce, prescribe:—before ordain, evidently set forth, write (afore, aforetime).
Thayer's Greek Lexicon Romans 15:4a R G L text T Tr WH, 4b Rec.; Ephesians 3:3; οἱ πάλαι προγεγραμμένοι εἰς τοῦτο τό κρίμα, of old set forth or designated beforehand (in the Scriptures of the O. T. and the prophecies of Enoch) unto this condemnation, Jude 1:4.
2. to depict or portray openly (cf. πρό, d. α: οἷς κατ' ὀφθαλμούς Ἰησοῦς Χριστός προεγράφη ἐν ὑμῖν (but ἐν ὑμῖν is dropped by G L T Tr WH) ἐσταυρωμένος, before whose eyes was portrayed the picture of Jesus Christ crucified (the attentive contemplation of which picture ought to have been a preventive against that bewitchment), i. e. who were taught most definitely and plainly concerning the meritorious efficacy of the death of Christ, Galatians 3:1. Since the simple γράφειν is often used of painters, and προγράφειν certainly signifies also to write before the eyes of all who can read (Plutarch, Demetr. 46 at the end, προγραφει τίς αὐτοῦ πρό τῆς σκηνῆς τήν τοῦ Ὀιδιποδος ἀρχήν), I see no reason why προγράφειν may not mean to depict (paint, portray) before the eyes; (R. V. openly set forth). Cf. Hofmann at the passage (Farrar, St. Paul, chapter xxiv., vol. i, 470 note; others adhere to the meaning to placard, write up publicly, see Lightfoot at the passage; others besides; see Meyer).
What you’ve quoted is how KJV translated the word “prographō”.

The literal meaning of the word “prographō” is to write before. It comes from “pro” and “grapho”.

You can check out the Greek word that means foreordained or predetermine, which is “proorizó”.

Tong
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Tong2020

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Tong2020 said:
Those who were not chosen by God to save will be condemned, not because they were not chosen, nor because God created them for condemnation, but because of their sin.

Now regarding the passage in Proverbs 16:4. It would be a mistake to interpret that as God creating people for condemnation. For God did not create a wicked man, but God created an innocent and sinless Adam.
One has to ignore an enormous amount of scripture to first believe God's words, only to then rework certain of them that cannot be consolidated unto ones personal belief. And so it is. Denying foreordination, predestination teachings of God I believe is to deny Sovereignty of God. 13 Bible verses about Foreordained Plans
In those 13 Bible verses there is none that speaks about God predestining people for condemnation.

To be clear, I don’t deny the Sovereignty of God. Scriptures just does not teach God creating man to condemn. That would go to contradict scriptures and God’s nature. Now scriptures teach that God predestine people for salvation. That does not go against scriptures nor God’s nature.

Tong
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Tong2020

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But then, I believe that predestination is according to foreknowledge.
Do you believe that what God had by His foreknowledge knew and have seen ahead of time (future), can change what He had seen and known to happen?

Tong
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