Selene
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He makes those short responses because he can't find anything in the Bible saying that Jesus chose a woman to become His Apostle.
Women In Leadership In the Church?
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He makes those short responses because he can't find anything in the Bible saying that Jesus chose a woman to become His Apostle.
Not sure if I understand what you mean by priest here but God has called each and every man, woman and child to be priests to Him. Each of us are part of a royal priesthood. 1Peter 2:9
Selene
New Member
Not sure if I understand what you mean by priest here but God has called each and every man, woman and child to be priests to Him. Each of us are part of a royal priesthood. 1Peter 2:9
By "priest", I was referring to being an "ordained priest." You are correct that God called everyone to be priests to Him. By this, we are all called to spread the Gospel and even evangelize. I am a female, and I can preach the Gospel and evangelize, but I cannot be an "ordained priest" or "pastor."This is why I stated in my earlier post, that a woman can preach, but she does not need to be a preacher to do it.
Only men can be called to the ordination of the priesthood because men represent Christ, who is Head of the Church. A woman cannot represent Christ. In the Bible, the woman is the Body of Christ, which is the Church. And of course, the Church (the woman) can also preach and evangelize, but she cannot be an ordained priest because that role is reserved for the man.
aspen
“"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few
With the shortage of priests - I really hope the Catholic Church will ordain deacons. It is biblical and deacons run a lot of parishes today.
Selene
New Member
Actually, the number of Catholic priests have increased over the years especially in the continents of Asia and Africa. According to Statistics:
http://www.zenit.org/article-28425?l=english
By "priest", I was referring to being an "ordained priest." You are correct that God called everyone to be priests to Him. By this, we are all called to spread the Gospel and even evangelize. I am a female, and I can preach the Gospel and evangelize, but I cannot be an "ordained priest" or "pastor."This is why I stated in my earlier post, that a woman can preach, but she does not need to be a preacher to do it.
Only men can be called to the ordination of the priesthood because men represent Christ, who is Head of the Church. A woman cannot represent Christ. In the Bible, the woman is the Body of Christ, which is the Church. And of course, the Church (the woman) can also preach and evangelize, but she cannot be an ordained priest because that role is reserved for the man.
I agree and again I think that the man must be married with children as per the scriptures.
He must manage his own family well, with children who respect and obey him. For if a man cannot manage his own household, how can he take care of God's church? 1Tim 3:4&5
Selene
New Member
Hello Jiggfly,
It does not matter if the man is single or married. St. Paul was single and he managed God's Church very well. In the Catholic Church, chastity is not a dogma. It is a discipline. The Catholic Church have accepted married priests into the Church. In fact, an ordained deacon in my Church (who passed away last year) was married. However, in God's kingdom, there is no marriage.
At the beginning of the Bible, one would find the marriage between man and woman (Adam and Eve), but this marriage between man and woman is pointing to something even better and greater, which is found in the end of the Bible...the marriage between Christ and His Church. Our priests chose to take the vow of chastity because they prefer to be one with God rather than to be one with a woman.
Luke 20:34-35 And Jesus said to them: The children of this world marry, and are given in marriage: But they that shall be accounted worthy of that world, and of the resurrection from the dead, shall neither be married, nor take wives.
In Christ,
Selene
Hello Jiggfly,
It does not matter if the man is single or married. St. Paul was single and he managed God's Church very well. In the Catholic Church, chastity is not a dogma. It is a discipline. The Catholic Church have accepted married priests into the Church. In fact, an ordained deacon in my Church (who passed away last year) was married. However, in God's kingdom, there is no marriage.
At the beginning of the Bible, one would find the marriage between man and woman (Adam and Eve), but this marriage between man and woman is pointing to something even better and greater, which is found in the end of the Bible...the marriage between Christ and His Church. Our priests chose to take the vow of chastity because they prefer to be one with God rather than to be one with a woman.
Luke 20:34-35 And Jesus said to them: The children of this world marry, and are given in marriage: But they that shall be accounted worthy of that world, and of the resurrection from the dead, shall neither be married, nor take wives.
In Christ,
Selene
Maybe it's inline with religious doctrine but it sure doesn't seem to be inline with the scripture in 1 Tim. 3. If you have a different interpretation of this scripture please share with us.
WhiteKnuckle
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Luke 20:34
The people of the resurection,,,,,,,, They were trying to trip Jesus up by asking, Who's wife will a woman be if her husband dies and she marries another?,,
Those who are found worthy are the ones who die in Christ. In heaven they wont be married.
Shouldn't we be used to Jesus speaking in such away?
If this scripture were meaning as only those who aren't married are worthy, that would contradict all the rest of the Bible. Marriage between a man and woman only lasts through this life. In the next life there will be no marriage.
I believe in another book Jesus said, "They shall be like the angels. Being neither married nor given in marriage."
The people of the resurection,,,,,,,, They were trying to trip Jesus up by asking, Who's wife will a woman be if her husband dies and she marries another?,,
Those who are found worthy are the ones who die in Christ. In heaven they wont be married.
Shouldn't we be used to Jesus speaking in such away?
If this scripture were meaning as only those who aren't married are worthy, that would contradict all the rest of the Bible. Marriage between a man and woman only lasts through this life. In the next life there will be no marriage.
I believe in another book Jesus said, "They shall be like the angels. Being neither married nor given in marriage."
Selene
New Member
Maybe it's inline with religious doctrine but it sure doesn't seem to be inline with the scripture in 1 Tim. 3. If you have a different interpretation of this scripture please share with us.
Hi Jiggfly,
In 1 Timothy 3, St. Paul is telling Timothy the kind of character a bishop or priest should have. St. Paul is not making marriage a requirement because he himself is single and even stated that it is good to be single (1 Corinthians 7:32-34). St. Paul was single and he never got married. St. Paul said the following:
1 Timothy 3:1-5 A faithful saying: if a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work. It behoveth therefore a bishop to be blameless, the husband of one wife, sober, prudent, of good behaviour, chaste, given to hospitality, a teacher, Not given to wine, no striker, but modest, not quarrelsome, not covetous, but One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all chastity. But if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?
In the following verses above, St. Paul was referring to the character of the bishop. He is not saying that it is a requirement that the bishop be married. He meant that in the case of marriage, the bishop should be married to only one wife (not two or three). In those days, it was common to have more than one wife (especially among the pagans). Polygamy is considered against God's law, and 1 Timothy 3:2 is one of the biblical verses that Catholics use to show that marriage is between only one man and one woman.
In Christ,
Selene
Selene
New Member
I was not putting down marriage in any way. I never said that married people are unworthy and single people are more worthy. Marriage is actually one of the seven sacraments in the Catholic and Orthodox Churches. Because it is a sacrament, it is regarded as sacred and holy. Our priests and nuns chose to remain single because they want to be devoted to God rather than to a wife or husband.
Our priests and our nuns are already married, but in a different way than you think. A nun is married to Christ because she remains devoted to Him in her service to Him. A priest (who is representative of Christ as Head of the Church) is married to the Church as he serves the Church. This kind of marriage symbolizes the marriage in Heaven between Christ and His Church. This is why a woman cannot be an ordained priest. The priest is a representative of Christ who is Head of the Church. And Christ is the bridegroom while His Church is the bride. A female priest in marriage to the Church (which is also a female) is wrong.
Just as the union between man and woman would bring forth a life into this world (which in this case would be a baby)........the union between Christ and His Church brings forth eternal life. A marriage between two females does not bring any life at all.
Selene
New Member
One who does not have a family does not know how to rule a family do they?
Just because a person is single and don't have a wife and children does not mean that they cannot run a Church. My priest was born in a family with parents and many siblings. His experience of a family is from his own family of having a mother, father, and siblings. St. Paul was single and he was able to discipline many of the Chuches he built through Christ. A person with character can rule a family (Church) very well regardless of whether they are single or married. It is a corrupt person who cannot rule very well.
No, they cannot marry each other, and they are not married to each other symbolically.
Just because a person is single and don't have a wife and children does not mean that they cannot run a Church. My priest was born in a family with parents and many siblings. His experience of a family is from his own family of having a mother, father, and siblings. St. Paul was single and he was able to discipline many of the Chuches he built through Christ. A person with character can rule a family (Church) very well regardless of whether they are single or married. It is a corrupt person who cannot rule very well.
No, they cannot marry each other, and they are not married to each other symbolically.
Thank you for expressing your point of view ( not that it changes mine) and on another note concerning your reference to Paul not being married, what do you think of Clement's opinion and does it effect your reception of his writings in general?
[font="tahoma][size="2"]Would you take parental advice from someone who has never been a parent?
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Selene
New Member
Hi Jiggyfly,
Could you be more specific regarding Clement's opinion?
Would I take parental advice from someone who has never been a parent? First of all, I am actually a single person with no kids of my own, but I do teach children and I have babysat children. I have taken teenagers on a trip to the United States for two weeks, and I am responsible for these kids 24/7 despite that I am not their mother. Parents have trusted me with their children and parents have come to me for advice despite that they know that I don't have children of my own.
My priest does not have children of his own, but he came from a very large family. He had to take care of his younger brothers and sisters while his parents were out. He knows about making milk for the baby and changing diapers. My priest gets along very well with the children in our community. In fact, after Mass, a little girl came running up to him to hug him.
Just because we are single does not mean that we know nothing about children or parenting. As a matter of fact, in my culture, it is not just the parents who raise the children. Where I am from, it is the entire extended family who helps in raising a child. This would include single people. The Chamorro people still follow the extended family system, unlike in the United States. My priest is from Ecuador. People from Asia, the Pacific region, Africa, the Middle East, and Latin America still follow this system. I am from the Pacific region. My father was Asian and my mother was a Pacific Islander.
In Christ,
Selene
Sorry guess I wasn't very clear, Clement believed that Paul was married and that priests (elders) have to be married once but must not be remarried.
Is it correct to assume then that you believe the scripture in 1 Tim. 3 is not literal but rather allegory?
Selene
New Member
I had to google St. Clements comment and St. Paul's marriage. I think the weblink below properly explains it better. St. Paul was single like Jesus Christ.
http://books.google.com/books?id=gw9WAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA154&lpg=PA154&dq=Clement+wrote+St.+Paul+married&source=bl&ots=6uNIWGI3B1&sig=9C6c3x5908np3Doshnixqp6zbgo&hl=en&ei=FaeXTfnHDY3KiALU9OicCQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CBgQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=Clement%20wrote%20St.%20Paul%20married&f=false
Taking into context, 1 Timothy 3 is actually speaking about a character of a bishop should be if he desires that office.
But is it literal or allegory?
My question was, "[font="tahoma]what do you think of Clement's opinion and does it effect your reception of his writings in general?"
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What is written should never be ignored but when one uses the quote one should understand the complete teaching.....
1 Corinthians 14:34-40 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law. And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church. What? came the word of God out from you? or came it unto you only? If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord. But if any man be ignorant, let him be ignorant. Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues. Let all things be done decently and in order.
Paul is teaching with the use of irony. He first repeats what the "men" of the church are saying..."you woman keep silent, you're not permitted to speak! Go home and ask your husband if you want to learn anything...stupid women." (I'm paraphrasing
) Then Paul properly reprimands the good ol' boys down at the local synagogue with "What? do you really think God only speaks to you? What? do you really think only you are qualified to teach (as in...'it come out from you')?".
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