Dispensational problems

Iconoclast · Sep 20, 2021

Curtis said:
My exposition of the scriptures I posted yesterday, proving the Bible proves the literal return of Jesus to set up and rule His kingdom from Jerusalem on David’s throne, didn’t mention Daniels 70th week at all.

Jesus reigns from the Heavenly Zion and Jerusalem right now, in the midst of His enemies.
Heb12:22-29
22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,

23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

25 See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from him that speaketh from heaven:

26 Whose voice then shook the earth: but now he hath promised, saying, Yet once more I shake not the earth only, but also heaven.

27 And this word, Yet once more, signifieth the removing of those things that are shaken, as of things that are made, that those things which cannot be shaken may remain.

28 Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear:

29 For our God is a consuming fire.

Iconoclast · Sep 20, 2021

teamventure said:
You'll take it back when the clouds roll up like a scroll.

4 And all the host of heaven shall be dissolved, and the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll: and all their host shall fall down, as the leaf falleth off from the vine, and as a falling fig from the fig tree.

5 For my sword shall be bathed in heaven: behold, it shall come down upon Idumea, and upon the people of my curse, to judgment.

So, explain how this happened literally, and did not happen at the same time, literally...go ahead, i will wait,lol

Iconoclast · Sep 20, 2021

Curtis said:
You don’t need history to prove premil - just the Bible:

The New Testament and Old Testament unequivocally teach a literal return and unending kingdom on the earth, with Jesus sitting and reigning on, and from, the throne of David in Jerusalem.

In Acts 2 Jesus literally ascends bodily and visibly from Mount Olive, and the angel said this same Jesus will return in like manner as you have seen Him leave - meaning His literal return bodily and visibly back to Mount Olive.

In Zechariah 14:5 Jesus returns to Mount Olive with all the saints with Him - where He then remains, and the nations such as Egypt come into the gates of Jerusalem to worship Jesus, Zechariah14:16-19, who will be literally and bodily sitting on the throne of David, forever.

Luk 1:32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the THRONE of his father David:

Luk 1:33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.

Isa 9:7 Of the increase of his government and peace there shall beno end, upon the THRONE of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.

1Ki 2:45 And king Solomon shall beblessed, and the THRONE of David shall be established before the LORD for ever.

Jeremiah 23:5-6 “Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, that I will raise to David a Branch of righteousness; a King shall reign and prosper, and execute judgment and righteousness in the earth. In His days Judah will be saved, and Israel will dwell safely; now this is His name by which He will be called: THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS”

In Revelation 21, The New Jerusalem which is above, descends to earth to old Jerusalem, and God and the lamb dwell in it with men forever, and Jesus says this about that city in Revelation 3:12:

Rev 3:12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

It’s Literal fact in scripture that there will be a unending literal and physical reign of Christ on the earth, and not just for a thousand years.

Jesus is currently sitting in heaven at the father’s right hand UNTIL the time is right to return to earth:

Psa 110:1 A Psalm of David.The LORD says to my Lord: “Sit at my right hand, until I make your enemies your footstool.”

Psa 110:2 The LORD sends forth from Zion your mighty scepter. Rule IN THE MIDST of your enemies!

He will return and land on mount Olive with all His saints per Zechariah 14:5, given earlier, where He will rule and reign from Jerusalem on the throne of David, which is established forever:

1Ki 2:45 And king Solomon shall beblessed, and the throne of David shall be established before the LORD for ever.

And we shall reign and rule with Jesus in His kingdom, on the earth:

Rev 5:10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

The millennium period isn’t a temporary reign of Jesus - it’s the period where Satan is bound for a thousand years, so all of creation, including the angels, gets to see the contrast between the world being ran by Satan as it’s god and ruler for 4,000 years, compared with Jesus ruling the nations with a rod of Iron for a thousand years - then Satan is loosed for short time, and thrown into the lake of fire.

Luk 1:32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:

Luk 1:33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.

Zephaniah also describes Jesus ruling on the earth in Jerusalem:

Zep 3:14 Sing aloud, O daughter of Zion; shout, O Israel! Rejoice and exult with all your heart, O daughter of Jerusalem!

Zep 3:15 The LORD has taken away the judgments against you; he has cleared away your enemies. The King of Israel, the LORD, is in your midst; you shall never again fear evil.

Zep 3:16 On that day it shall be said to Jerusalem: “Fear not, O Zion; let not your hands grow weak.

Zep 3:17 The LORD your God is in your midst, a mighty one who will save; he will rejoice over you with gladness; he will quiet you by his love; he will exult over you with loud singing.

There is no reason whatsoever to deny that the thousand year reign of Jesus on the earth in Revelation 20 is literal - from the OT to the NT, it is literal fact that He will return physically to earth and rule from the throne of David.

Maranatha

Rev20 is the only place using the term 1000 yrs. It does not say it is on the earth.

Iconoclast · Sep 20, 2021

teamventure said:
Eschatology is so strange through the lense of preterism, I still don't know what they believe about a literal return of Christ.

Nothing strange about it.
Jesus was on earth. The temple was the Holy Place.
Jesus said it would be destroyed, and mt.24 mentions the abomination of desolation.
Jesus said it would happen. It did just as Jesus said.
Jesus has ascended to the throne and reigns now from the Heavenly Zion and Jerusalem. This is the true Holy Place. Jesus leads the New Exodus to it
Hebrews12:22-29
The gospel spreads worldwide, until the last person to be saved, is saved.
Then comes the last day and the eternal state.

Curtis · Sep 20, 2021

Iconoclast said:
Not reallycry

You show you have no comprehension of this issue.
Explain Isa.13, Isa 34.....I can offer a biblical explanation, I am sure you cannot.
All these events took place even Joel 2 at Pentecost, but you cannot see it.

All the 80 unfulfilled prophecies refute preterism completely

Curtis · Sep 20, 2021

Iconoclast said:
Rev20 is the only place using the term 1000 yrs. It does not say it is on the earth.

As I proved from scripture, from the time Jesus returns to earth again in Zechariah 14, Jesus reigns forevermore on earth, In Jerusalem, sitting on the Throne of David, thus of course the millennial reign is on the earth.

Marty fox · Sep 20, 2021

Iconoclast said:
Rev20 is the only place using the term 1000 yrs. It does not say it is on the earth.

Neither does it say that Jesus is on earth or that it is a time of peace. The binding and reigning don't even end at the same time in Rev 20.

Jesus doesn't reign because satan is bound Jesus reigns because He is God

Marty fox · Sep 20, 2021

Psalm 110 Of David.
The Lord says to my lord:

“Sit at my right hand
until I make your enemies
a footstool for your feet.”

2 The Lord will extend your mighty scepter from Zion, saying,
“Rule in the midst of your enemies!”
3 Your troops will be willing
on your day of battle.
Arrayed in holy splendor,
your young men will come to you
like dew from the morning’s womb.

4 The Lord has sworn
and will not change his mind:
“You are a priest forever,
in the order of Melchizedek.”

5 The Lord is at your right hand[c];
he will crush kings on the day of his wrath.
6 He will judge the nations, heaping up the dead
and crushing the rulers of the whole earth.
7 He will drink from a brook along the way,[d]
and so he will lift his head high.

Psalm 110 tells us that Jesus will sit at the right hand of the Father until the Father puts all of Jesus’ enemies under His feet

In Revelation chapter 20:7-10 satan carries out his final assault on the church after the thousand years and is then cast into the lake of fire.

Thus Psalm 110 teaches us that Jesus won’t leave the Fathers right hand until after the symbolic thousand years when He crushes the kings of the earth’ then cast satan into the lake of fire and then judges the nations as also shown in Revelation chapter 20.

Iconoclast · Sep 21, 2021

Curtis said:
All the 80 unfulfilled prophecies refute preterism completely

yet, you cannot deal with the language of these verses

Taken · Sep 21, 2021

Iconoclast said:
Rev20 is the only place using the term 1000 yrs. It does not say it is on the earth.

Obvious LACK of understanding.

It does not need to SAY Earth, to understand it IS Earth.

Scripture repeatedly speaks of Heaven & Earth.
Heaven(S) indications of 3 levels.
Earth (surface), the Estate of Living Body's of men and their Nations (Lands Divided by Boundaries)
Earth (inner core, deep beneath the surface, referenced broadly as Hell).

Seriously...What teaches you there are
* Nations IN Heaven, or Nations IN Hell ?
* Body's of men are Beheaded IN Heaven or IN Hell?

Rev 20
[1] And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
[2] And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
[3] And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
[4] And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Taken · Sep 21, 2021

Curtis said:
As I proved from scripture, from the time Jesus returns to earth again in Zechariah 14, Jesus reigns forevermore on earth, In Jerusalem, sitting on the Throne of David, thus of course the millennial reign is on the earth.

Yes.
The Word of God, came forth out from Gods mouth, TO Earth, AS a Servant, without Power and called: The Son of Man, JESUS...WHILE ON Earth IS Revealed IS the Christ. (Who IS the Power, Wisdom, Seed of God)...

Yes.
The Son of Man, Left Earth, Returned to Heaven...and SHALL return to Earth, as a king, WITH POWER.
His AUTHORITATIVE RIGHT, TO: His earthly Kingdom...was Established BY GOD.
....King Davids everlasting throne IN Jerusalem.
....Must be Occupied BY one WHO IS "of a Tribe of Israel", a LAWFUL descendant of Abraham, Issac, & Jacob, & of the House of David...
...Being, one who IS a Faithful Descendant of Abraham, thus an HEIR of Abraham's LAND PROMISE.
....JESUS...Son of Man...FUFLILLED the LAWFUL "requirements"...Being Revealed, LAWFULLY of the Tribe of Judah;
LAWFULLY a descendant of the House of David.
LAWFULLY an heir of Abraham's promised Land.

JESUS, Son of Man, returns AS Son of Man....(so Earthly Mortal men CAN SEE HIM)!

JESUS, Son of Man, returns (WITH POWER)...
To claim His Throne in Jerusalem.
To claim His Land Inheritance.
To Reveal His Kingdom and Authority of and in His Kingdom.
THAT ^ is "NOT"... the NEW Jerusalem.
THAT ^ is The Son of Man, Jesus, ruling His "limited" (BY Land Boundary Kingdom...)
FOR a "limited" amount time. 1,000 yrs.
* Satan OFF Earth, bound in Hell.
* OUTSIDE of JESUS' Kingdom...ARE a remnant of MORTALS, (neither having received Satans Mark, or killed during, the Seals, Trumps, Vials Wrath)...establishing their "nations", their appointed "governing" men, their laws, their reproducing of mortals and generations of men who are born, live, die.
* Pilimages to Jerusalem by mortals, yearly.
Some do, but as generations pass, many do not.
* 1,000 years completed...Satan loosed. Nations, occupants thereof...generationally kept IN Gods Word or strayed off...
* Final Division...Judgement...Sentencing...
Separation...
OF Demons and men AGAINST the Lord God.
* THEN shall the Heavens and Earth be renewed, and A NEW Jerusalem be revealed...and the Rest of the Faithful Risen In Glory....The Lord God Sitting in His Kingdom encompassing the entire World...with His People, who THEN, can SEE Him as He is.

Taken · Sep 21, 2021

Marty fox said:
Jesus doesn't reign because satan is bound Jesus reigns because He is God

Noone said Jesus' reign IS BECAUSE satan is bound!

Satan being BOUND, is simply a FACT, of satans absence ON Earth, during Jesus' 1,000 year reign ON Earth.

Taken · Sep 21, 2021

Despensational Problems
OP ^

Are unsolved problems of a non-dispensationalist.

A person who:
Relies on literal words of Bible prophecy, and recognizes a distinction between Israel and the Church...
"May be called a Dispensationalist"...

Oh, oh, the supposed "PROBLEMS"

...to Trust to Rely on Scripture for Truth and Verification!
Oh, oh, the supposed "PROBLEMS"

..to recognize God declared faithful Israel "with God", His People
...and the Church IS a membership of ANY man who has become MADE "IN" Christ, by, through, of Christ.

Truth7t7 · Sep 21, 2021

Iconoclast said:
Nothing strange about it.
Jesus was on earth. The temple was the Holy Place.
Jesus said it would be destroyed, and mt.24 mentions the abomination of desolation.
Jesus said it would happen. It did just as Jesus said.
Jesus has ascended to the throne and reigns now from the Heavenly Zion and Jerusalem. This is the true Holy Place. Jesus leads the New Exodus to it
Hebrews12:22-29
The gospel spreads worldwide, until the last person to be saved, is saved.
Then comes the last day and the eternal state.

Matthew 24:15 In Daniels Abomination Is Future, Just As Daniel 9:27 Shows

The future bad guy will be present on earth making Abomination and Desolation to the "Consummatoon" or ultimate end

Daniel 9:27KJV
27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Truth7t7 · Sep 21, 2021

Marty fox said:
In Revelation chapter 20:7-10 satan carries out his final assault on the church after the thousand years and is then cast into the lake of fire.

Thus Psalm 110 teaches us that Jesus won’t leave the Fathers right hand until after the symbolic thousand years when He crushes the kings of the earth’ then cast satan into the lake of fire and then judges the nations as also shown in Revelation chapter 20.

No such thing as a Millennial Reign or Kingdom found in scripture, its a fabricated fairy tale of man

Jesus returns in fire and Final judgement, dissolving the earth by fire

Truth7t7 · Sep 21, 2021

Curtis said:
As I proved from scripture, from the time Jesus returns to earth again in Zechariah 14, Jesus reigns forevermore on earth, In Jerusalem, sitting on the Throne of David, thus of course the millennial reign is on the earth.

Zechariah 14 reresents the eterna kingdom, you have been shown several times

Zechariah 14:1-12 below shows the Lords return to earth in fire in final judgement.

(Verse 1) shows "The Day Of The Lord" also seen in 2 Peter 3:10-13 "Fire Judgement" below

(Verse 2) Shows that all nations are gathered for the final battle of armageddon.

(Verses 3-5) shows the Lords return, and his eternal feet touch down on the earthly Mt, of Olives, and in the "Twinkling Of An Eye" 1 Cor 15:52 takes place, in the catching up, resurrection, final judgement by fire, and the New Heavens, Earth, and Jerusalem being revealed for eternity, judgement complete, eternity begins.

(Verses 6-7) Eternal light seen, in the eternal kingdom, Rev 22:1-5

(Verse 8) The river of life is seen, Rev 22:1-5

(Verse 10) The New creation is being revealed, the plain is lifted up.

(Verse 12) "The Day Of The Lord" showing the "Last Day" judgement by the Lords fire, as men are consumed as they stand on their feet, 2 Peter 3:10-13

2 Peter 3:10KJV
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

Revelation 22:1KJV
And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.

"The Eternal Kingdom"!

Zechariah 14:1-12KJV
14 Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.
2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
3 Then shall the Lord go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the Lord my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.
6 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark:
7 but it shall be one day which shall be known to the Lord, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light.
8 And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.
9 And the Lordshall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one Lord, and his name one.
10 All the land shall be turned as a plain from Geba to Rimmon south of Jerusalem: and it shall be lifted up, and inhabited in her place, from Benjamin’s gate unto the place of the first gate, unto the corner gate, and from the tower of Hananeel unto the king’s winepresses.
11 And men shall dwell in it, and there shall be no more utter destruction; but Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited.
12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the Lord will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.

Truth7t7 · Sep 21, 2021

Curtis said:
As I proved from scripture, from the time Jesus returns to earth again in Zechariah 14, Jesus reigns forevermore on earth, In Jerusalem, sitting on the Throne of David, thus of course the millennial reign is on the earth.

Zechariah 14:16 Who Will Be Left Of The Nations?

You will closely note, Zechariah 14:16 & Isaiah 4:3-4 are "Parallel" readings of the same event, as Isaiah gives a clear account of those who are left, those who are found in the book of life, the final judgement has passed, eternity has begun "After" The Day Of The Lord

You will closely note in Isaiah 4:4 below, Jerusalem will be purged by the spirit of (Judgement) & (Burning)

Zechariah 14:12KJV
12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the Lord will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.

Only The Righteous Are Left, The Book Of Life "Was" Opened (Every One That Is Written Among The Living)

Zechariah 14:16KJV
16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.

Isaiah 4:3-4KJV
3 And it shall come to pass, that he that is left in Zion, and he that remaineth in Jerusalem, shall be called holy, even every one that is written among the living in Jerusalem:
4 When the Lord shall have washed away the filth of the daughters of Zion, and shall have purged the blood of Jerusalem from the midst thereof by the spirit of judgment, and by the spirit of burning.

Revelation 21:24-27KJV
24 And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.
25 And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there.
26 And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it.
27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.

Zao is life · Sep 21, 2021

Iconoclast said:
Not reallycry

You show you have no comprehension of this issue.
Explain Isa.13, Isa 34.....I can offer a biblical explanation, I am sure you cannot.
All these events took place even Joel 2 at Pentecost, but you cannot see it.

LOL. Please do. Because everyone has "a Biblical explanation". To me, and at first glance, linking the above chapters in the above books to Pentecost seems a little like highlighting a passage in scripture with your mouse and dragging it into a folder that you believe it "should" belong in.

I really really, really, really hope no Bible prophecy experts work in military intelligence.

Zao is life · Sep 21, 2021

Truth7t7 said:
Scripture strongly suggest another temple in Jerusalem, with renewed animal sacrifice, in abomination to the Lords sacrifice on calvary

Isaiah 66:4 & 2 Thessalonians 2:11 Yes 2 places in the KJV the word "Delusion" is mentioned,both associated with a temple

Isaiah 66:1-4KJV
1 Thus saith the Lord, The heaven is my throne, and the earth is my footstool: where is the house that ye build unto me? and where is the place of my rest?
2 For all those things hath mine hand made, and all those things have been, saith the Lord: but to this man will I look, even to him that is poor and of a contrite spirit, and trembleth at my word.
3 He that killeth an ox is as if he slew a man; he that sacrificeth a lamb, as if he cut off a dog's neck; he that offereth an oblation, as if he offered swine's blood; he that burneth incense, as if he blessed an idol. Yea, they have chosen their own ways, and their soul delighteth in their abominations.
4 I also will choose their delusions, and will bring their fears upon them; because when I called, none did answer; when I spake, they did not hear: but they did evil before mine eyes, and chose that in which I delighted not.

I don't see those scriptures you quite as strongly suggesting what you think they strongly suggest.

Iconoclast · Sep 21, 2021

Taken said:
Obvious LACK of understanding.

It does not need to SAY Earth, to understand it IS Earth.

Scripture repeatedly speaks of Heaven & Earth.
Heaven(S) indications of 3 levels.
Earth (surface), the Estate of Living Body's of men and their Nations (Lands Divided by Boundaries)
Earth (inner core, deep beneath the surface, referenced broadly as Hell).

Seriously...What teaches you there are
* Nations IN Heaven, or Nations IN Hell ?
* Body's of men are Beheaded IN Heaven or IN Hell?

Rev 20
[1] And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
[2] And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
[3] And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
[4] And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

The reign of God is from the Heavenly Throne.
Follow the discussion.

Dispensational problems

Active Member

Active Member

Active Member

Active Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Active Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Active Member

Similar threads